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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

6,100 posts in this topic

There is today a place in Scotland called Freswick, which apparently does mean "Frisian Bay":

http://books.google....an Bay"&f=false

It's in the far north of Scotland though:

240px-Caithness_UK_location_map.svg.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freswick

Not at all wanting to p*** you of in any way for any reason, Lilthor, but I have posted about that before.

I think having an iron memory about what I posted myself is a burden.

The Frisans did settle there.

The only question remaining is WHEN exactly.

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Not at all wanting to p*** you of in any way for any reason, Lilthor, but I have posted about that before.

I think having an iron memory about what I posted myself is a burden.

The Frisans did settle there.

The only question remaining is WHEN exactly.

Lol...I'm certainly not surprised (nor p***ed, of course). It turns out there are "Frisian Bay" locations all over the North Sea and Baltic regions...which is likely not news around here, eh?

An iron memory is a fine thing; I've been told mine is like a wisp of smoke. Or gets lost in wisps of smoke; I can't remember which.

:tu:

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OK.

* The Frisians in the 4th century BC suffered from some terrible flood.

* The Frisians were in contact with the Scots.

* They must have had more than enough of those almost annual floods, and decided to move to their friends, the Scots, living in highlands.

* Texel island (or the area before it became an island) was one of the first and oldest inhabited places in the Netherlands.

* It was high and dry, but apparently not high and dry enough.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Improvement of the existing translations ~ letter Liko Ovira-Linda, 803 CE.

original text

... THA POPPA KENINGGAR.

THISSA WÉTATH THAT WI HJARA GRATESTE FJANDA SEND.

THRVCHDA WI HJARA LJUDA TO SPRÉKE THVRA,

VR FRYDOM RJUCHT AND FORSTNE PLJCHT.

translation Ottema 1872

... de vreemde koningen;

deze weten dat wij hunne grootste vijanden zijn,

omdat wij hunne lieden toespreken durven

over vrijheid, recht en vorstenplicht.

translation Sandbach 1876

... foreign kings,

who know that we are their greatest enemies,

because we dare to speak to their people

of liberty, rights, and the duties of princes.

translation Wirth 1933

... den fremden Königen.

Diese wissen, daß wir ihre größten Feinde sind,

weil wir zu ihren Leuten zu sprechen wagen

von Freiheit, Recht und Fürstenpflicht.

translation Jensma 2006

... de moffenkoningen.

Dezen weten dat wij hun grotste vijanden zijn,

doordat wij hun volk durven toespreken

over vrijheid, recht en vorstenplicht.

"Haarlieden" or "haarlui" (slang: "hullie") is oldschool third person plural: them (modern Dutch "hen" or "ze").

See Geïntegreerde TaalBank.

So, in my opinion, it should be:

Dutch: "... doordat wij tot hen spreken durven..."

English: "because we dare speak to them..."

German: "... weil wir zu ihnen sprechen wagen"

... which is something significantly different than the known interpretations.

Over de Linden's forefather Liko - who had been at their court - had dared to criticize the foreign suppressors directly, not through 'their people'.

Edited by Otharus

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Just found an interesting source:

The Science of the Swastika by Bernard Mees (2008; Central European University Press)

See chapter 6 on Herman Wirth, who translated most of the OLB into German and published it with comments in 1933.

For those who don't know: The OLB is also known in German as "Himmler's Bible".

(I have not read it myself yet.)

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Improvement of the existing translations ~ letter Liko Ovira-Linda, 803 CE.

original text

... THA POPPA KENINGGAR.

THISSA WÉTATH THAT WI HJARA GRATESTE FJANDA SEND.

THRVCHDA WI HJARA LJUDA TO SPRÉKE THVRA,

VR FRYDOM RJUCHT AND FORSTNE PLJCHT.

translation Ottema 1872

... de vreemde koningen;

deze weten dat wij hunne grootste vijanden zijn,

omdat wij hunne lieden toespreken durven

over vrijheid, recht en vorstenplicht.

translation Sandbach 1876

... foreign kings,

who know that we are their greatest enemies,

because we dare to speak to their people

of liberty, rights, and the duties of princes.

translation Wirth 1933

... den fremden Königen.

Diese wissen, daß wir ihre größten Feinde sind,

weil wir zu ihren Leuten zu sprechen wagen

von Freiheit, Recht und Fürstenpflicht.

translation Jensma 2006

... de moffenkoningen.

Dezen weten dat wij hun grotste vijanden zijn,

doordat wij hun volk durven toespreken

over vrijheid, recht en vorstenplicht.

"Haarlieden" or "haarlui" (slang: "hullie") is oldschool third person plural: them (modern Dutch "hen" or "ze").

See Geïntegreerde TaalBank.

So, in my opinion, it should be:

Dutch: "... doordat wij tot hen spreken durven..."

English: "because we dare speak to them..."

German: "... weil wir zu ihnen sprechen wagen"

... which is something significantly different than the known interpretations.

Over de Linden's forefather Liko - who had been at their court - had dared to criticize the foreign suppressors directly, not through 'their people'.

The best literal translation into Dutch would be "hunlieden''. s. http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article_content&wdb=WNT&id=M026964 .

poppa could best be tranlated with 'Rooms, Roomse).

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poppa could best be tranlated with 'Rooms, Roomse).

See post #10077 of the closed thread: http://www.unexplain...184645&st=10065

Fragment of letter from Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema, dated 8-11-1871 (translated):

"You would prefer to translate 'poppenkoningen' into 'papenkings' ['paap' is an invection for catholics]. Here in Westfriesland strangers are called 'pop', terms like 'poppe-horses' and '-pigs' are known too.

Thus you would not risk a mistake if you would use 'foreign kings' for 'poppa koningen'."

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The best literal translation into Dutch would be "hunlieden''.

That is a very oldfashioned term.

Most people would understand that as "hun _ lieden" (their people), while it means (in modern Dutch) "hen" or "ze" (them).

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Or "zullie" as our ex-prime minister Van Agt would say, lol.

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yes, from zijlui or zijlieden (them people)

interestingly, "jullie" (gijlui, gijlieden; plural "you" or "you people") has become 'common civilised dutch', while the other forms are fading away

Edited by Otharus

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"Thus you would not risk a mistake if you would use 'foreign kings' for 'poppa koningen'."

Also, note that on the same page (letter frok Liko) PAPEKAPPE is used for what is (thus far) generally interpreted as "popecap", that would refer to monks.

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That is a very oldfashioned term.

Most people would understand that as "hun _ lieden" (their people), while it means (in modern Dutch) "hen" or "ze" (them).

It is oldfashioned mid 19th c. To avoid misunderstandings the word is written without space.

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It is oldfashioned mid 19th c. To avoid misunderstandings the word is written without space.

Your generation will have less problems with understanding that word correctly, than mine.

Translation is always a matter of taste.

I think of making one some day that is much more about interpretation and less about staying close to the original vocabulary and syntax.

The archaic style of the translators from Ottema till Jensma may be one of the reasons why the OLB is not more popular.

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Also, note that on the same page (letter frok Liko) PAPEKAPPE is used for what is (thus far) generally interpreted as "popecap", that would refer to monks.

Hi Otharus,

Some coincidence concerning papekappe and monks -> pape's keppe -> friend of pape

keppe

(de ~ (v.), -n)

schatje, vriendin, vriend

< WNT: znw. m., vr., mv. -n. Volgens Debrabandere is keppe de stam van mnl. keefse, kevesch, du. kebse `bijzit’. Verwant aan du. käfig, wvl. keve `kooi’.

Een keppe is dan `iemand die samenhokt, bijzit, geliefde’.

– (Vl.-België, inz. W.-Vl.) Iemand die men lief heeft; voor wie men voorkeur heeft; lieveling.

Siska is al twee jaar mijn keppe. Met haar wil ik oud worden.

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Aha!!!

Brilliant Van Gorp, congratulations.

Also see

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...lemmodern=keppe

and

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...lemmodern=kappe

"Papenvriendje" (disparaging term for monks, something like "papist's pal" or "-buddy"?) totally makes sense.

I always thought it referred to something they wear on their heads.

[media=]

[/media] Edited by Otharus

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Or... much better stil:

A catamite of the pope (schandknaap van de paus).

Hilarious!

Van Gorp, this is a major breakthrough.

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The word is also used for part of a wall of those late medieval fortifications/bastions in the form of a star.

post-18246-0-23814400-1348820642_thumb.j

http://www.collectie...n=mediatheek&q=

Map_of_Geneva_in_1841.jpg

It does look like a mitre, or 'papekap (pope's cap').

10404aax.gif

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Good find, Abe.

I asked a fellow student from Westflanders and he knew the word 'keppe'.

It is still used for someone very dear (liefje, schatje; darling or very good friend).

So two interpretations are possible.

1. PAPEKAPPE = hat of bishop or pope (mitre).

In our language, it is common to refer to someone that one does not respect, by reducing him to an external characteristic, for example "dat kapsel" (that hairdo), or "dat gekke hoedje" (that silly hat).

Questionable would be if monks wore something that looked like a mitre.

Or did Liko mean "don't let a bishop look at the writings"? Possible, but I don't think so.

2. PAPEKAPPE = -KEPPE = friend, sweetheart or even catamite of the pope.

In this case it could be a strong invective to any representative of the (Roman Catholic) Church, including monks.

The word would perfectly voice the feelings Liko must have had for what he will have seen as dangerous traitors; collaborators with the enemy, destroyers of his culture.

By simply translating PAPEKAPPE as "monk", something important gets lost, imo; the fact that LIKO used a nickname, that probably expressed some very negative feelings.

Edited by Otharus

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To provide some context to the time when Liko 'Oera Linda' wrote his preliminary letter (unnumbered second page of OLB) in 803 CE, here are some names of the rulers:

pope of Rome

(795 - 816) Leo III, crowned Charlemagne in 800 as Roman emperor.

Carolingian emperor

(800 - 814) Charlemagne, subdued the Frisians after a 3 year "bloody war" (wiki), between 783 and 785. He was also King of the Franks (768-814) and of the Lombards (774-814).

bishop of Utrecht

(ca. 790 - 806) Hamacarus, only his name is known.

Liko wrote that he had "been at their court" (IK HAV BY THAM ET HOVE WÉST).

Where would that have been?

Rome, Noyon, Utrecht?

Edited by Otharus

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And these were the relevant rulers in 1256 CE, when Hidde 'Oera Linda' wrote his OLB-copy and letter to his son Okke:

pope of Rome

(1254 - 1261) Alexander IV; time of conspiracies and instability.

Roman (German) emperor

No official emperor between 1254 and 1312. Willem II of Holland was crowned as king.

bishop of Utrecht

(1249 - 1267) Hendrik I van Vianden, he supported Willem II of Holland, but the latter exploited the conflicts between Hendrik and the nobility of Utrecht at his own advantage.

count of Holland

(1234 - 1256) Willem II of Holland, was supposed to be crowned as Roman emperor, but died miserably (fell through ice) at Hoogwoud, when he tried to subdue the Westfrisians.

His son and successor Floris V was only 2 years old in 1256, so the nobility will practically have ruled until he was 12 years old (1266). Floris made his first strike against the Westfrisians in 1272 (which he lost).

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I'll give you my 2c in the papekappe thing.

The word for Catholic derives from kata - the whole. The word for kappa you are not seeing is COVER/CLOAK=CAPE that is your kappe.

Papekappe can mean Catholic imo. Pope's whole (congregation) friends (kappe-van gorp) ie; bishop, monks etc.

Catholic was not a word in 803AD. Papekappe would be an early form of the word we now use for Catholic.

kappe means cape/cloak and that covers one's whole body - it also alludes to hiding something, hidden, sneaky - cloak and dagger, cloaking device ie; Star Trek.

It means the whole in the context. The body of Catholics, which were once mostly monks and the like.

It's no co-incidence the Pope wears a cloak.

pape kappe = pope's cape - pope's cloak - pope's 'whole body' of people - the Pope's friends - the pope's whole = Catholics.

Edited by The Puzzler

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The word for kappa you are not seeing is COVER/CLOAK=CAPE that is your kappe.

Kap/ cap (related to Latin caput = head ~ supposedly the origin of the word cape) was how I understood it before (as did the other translators, I suppose).

I always thought it referred to something they wear on their heads.

But in the meaning of good friend or lover it makes a much more sense to me, as it would (imo) more adequately express the feelings Liko must have had for them. Mind you... I was raised with exactly those sentiments towards Catholics. They are deeply rooted in Westfrisian culture.

I would not say though that your interpretation cannot be right.

Edited by Otharus

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Kap/ cap (related to Latin caput = head ~ supposedly the origin of the word cape) was how I understood it before (as did the other translators, I suppose).

But in the meaning of good friend or lover it makes a much more sense to me, as it would (imo) more adequately express the feelings Liko must have had for them. Mind you... I was raised with exactly those sentiments towards Catholics. They are deeply rooted in Westfrisian culture.

I would not say though that your interpretation cannot be right.

You should note that cap has no e on it - the word kappe is related to cape not cap - even though cape does indeed come from cap.

It is friend, like van gorp said, I'm telling you how it became to mean friend and why kappe means friend, which really means 'a covering' meaning your group around you.

Friend is not etymologically connected to the word cap or cape, see - it evolves through the meaning.

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You should note that cap has no e on it - the word kappe is related to cape not cap - even though cape does indeed come from cap.

Kappe is old Dutch for Kap.

Cape is modern English.

Recap of your flawed reasoning:

- cape comes from cap

- kappe is related to cape

- kappe is NOT related to cap

How can kappe only be related to cape and not to cap, if cape is derived from cap?

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Kappe is old Dutch for Kap.

Cape is modern English.

Recap of your flawed reasoning:

- cape comes from cap

- kappe is related to cape

- kappe is NOT related to cap

How can kappe only be related to cape and not to cap, if cape is derived from cap?

Because cape is a later word than cap. It's related to cap, my wording was bad.

cape (n.1) dictionary.gif garment, O.E. capa, from L.L. cappa "cape, hooded cloak" (see cap (n.)). Latin and English cappa/capa derived from cap but does not MEAN cap.

Don't forget Frisian is closer to English unless you want to think Old Dutch is in the OLB.

Edited by The Puzzler

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