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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

6,100 posts in this topic

You seriously think that no linguist would see the similarity between HEIL and HEILIG and not mention it?

You have succeeded again in wasting some of my valuable time.

M. Philippa e.a. (2003-2009) Etymologisch Woordenboek van het Nederlands

heilig bn. ‘gewijd; volmaakt; onaantastbaar’

[...]

Afleiding van de wortel van → heel of → heil.

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/heilig

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You forget Tolkien used even older (Germanic, Celtic, Nordic) myths and legends.

I hardly ever forget anything. That is one of my handicaps.

If 20th century fiction used old myths and legends, imagine what 13th century (or older) fiction would have used!

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For example, the book alleges to relate narratives extending from somewhere before 4,000 ybp to approx 1000 ybp, does it not?

The texts of the OLB (including those about the oldest times) were (supposedly) collected in the 6th century BCE and later (ca. 300 BCE and ca. year zero).

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I hardly ever forget anything. That is one of my handicaps.

If 20th century fiction used old myths and legends, imagine what 13th century (or older) fiction would have used!

I guess they used the same myths. I am talking myths and legends from around the 8th to the 10th century.

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You have succeeded again in wasting some of my valuable time.

M. Philippa e.a. (2003-2009) Etymologisch Woordenboek van het Nederlands

heilig bn. ‘gewijd; volmaakt; onaantastbaar’

[...]

Afleiding van de wortel van → heel of → heil.

http://www.etymologi...refwoord/heilig

Yeah, you're right. Maybe I should start thinking about glasses.

Time for something funny:

Hail.jpg

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Time for something funny:

:)

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Posted (edited)

And what is your opinion about this post of mine (I hope I will not waste your precious time again...) :

What is kind of telling is that the word "hellinga" in the OLB shows up nowhere else in any Old Frisian dictionary. And that is probably because it is a Middle Dutch word.

helling = slope, hillside, inclination, declension ...but also slipway

http://www.etymologi...efwoord/helling

NOW WE SHALL WRITE HOW IT FARED WITH JON.

IT IS INSCRIBED AT TEXLAND.

(..)

Hja wêron mith felum tekad aend hju hêdon hjara skula vppa hellinga thêra bergum. Thêrthrvch send hja thrvch vs folk Hellinggar hêten.

They were clothed in skins, and had their dwellings on the slopes (hellinga) of the hills, wherefore they were called Hellingers.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bb

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

Well, whether the manuscript is authentic can be validated by the change in the use of language over the timeframe within which it was allegedly written. For example, the book alleges to relate narratives extending from somewhere before 4,000 ybp to approx 1000 ybp, does it not? Then the change in the use of language and syntax over the period of the copied (original?) works should be relatively simple to ascertain - if it is, in fact, a copy (as alleged) of an ancient work.

Or is it thought to be a later re-working of more ancient tales?

(See underlined sentence in your post)

Yes, that's what I think it is.

Even in medieval times they read the works of Herodotes, Homer, Pliny, Strabo, Plato, Tacitus and who have we.

An example: if you read about Minno the Seaking in the OLB, it doesn't even look like much of a rewriting of what Herodotes (or Homer or Thucydides) wrote about Minos:

Minos appears in Greek literature as the king of Knossos as early as Homer's Iliad and Odyssey.[13] Thucydides tells us Minos was the most ancient man known to build a navy.[14] He reigned over Crete and the islands of the Aegean Sea three generations before the Trojan War. He lived at Knossos for periods of nine years, where he received instruction from Zeus in the legislation which he gave to the island. He was the author of the Cretan constitution and the founder of its naval supremacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minos

Compare:

FROM MINNO’S WRITINGS / LAWS FOR THE NAVIGATORS / USEFUL EXTRACTS FROM THE WRITINGS LEFT BY MINNO

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#al

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Show me where in this version of the Old Frisian dictionary:

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-H.pdf

And the OLB word is "hellinga" as you can read in the quote in my former post.

"Hellingar" is supposed to be nothing but the plural of "hellinga" or people living on those "hellinga" as the quote explains.

.

Look under L for linga - Frisian words are made up of smaller words.

hel-linga

I've got the whole thing down pat now - I can even tell you why the North Sea would be the Helle Sea, if you say it was called that - because hel is incline and this goes through to up and North - simply North Sea = Helle Sea.

Look at the Frisian dictionary under h - then look at all hêl and hel words - all hêl words will be to do with whole including holy - all hel words are to do with conceal, hide - these ones go through to hell and cell.

The heel stone at Stonehenge would be a stone to denote the time the Sun made a whole circuit - it's a 'whole' stone. Your heel is your whole, it's your health - seriously - this is why only a shot to Achilles heel could kill him - it was the actual pinpoint of his life.

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Posted (edited)

Look under L for linga - Frisian words are made up of smaller words.

hel-linga

I've got the whole thing down pat now - I can even tell you why the North Sea would be the Helle Sea, if you say it was called that - because hel is incline and this goes through to up and North - simply North Sea = Helle Sea.

Look at the Frisian dictionary under h - then look at all hêl and hel words - all hêl words will be to do with whole including holy - all hel words are to do with conceal, hide - these ones go through to hell and cell.

The heel stone at Stonehenge would be a stone to denote the time the Sun made a whole circuit - it's a 'whole' stone. Your heel is your whole, it's your health - seriously - this is why only a shot to Achilles heel could kill him - it was the actual pinpoint of his life.

No, it's about the OLB word 'hellinga'.

I know you don't read Dutch, but the 'etymologiebank' site shows only a middle Dutch word as the oldest form for 'helling'.

In case my eyes failed me again, lol, I hope you or Otharus give that link a try.

In Dutch we still have the verb 'hellen' and it means 'to incline'.

'Helling' means 'something that inclines'. You should split it up like HELL-ING, not like HEL-LING.

-ING = 'something that does'.

+++

EDIT:

Btw, in English the -ING suffix is used to make a gerund:

http://en.wikipedia....unds_in_English

Or 'being busy with', but in essence its use is the same as in Dutch (and no doubt as in Frisian or old Frisian).

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

No, it's about the OLB word 'hellinga'.

I know you don't read Dutch, but the 'etymologiebank' site shows only a middle Dutch word as the oldest form for 'helling'.

In case my eyes failed me again, lol, I hope you or Otharus give that link a try.

In Dutch we still have the verb 'hellen' and it means 'to incline'.

'Helling' means 'something that inclines'. You should split it up like HELL-ING, not like HEL-LING.

-ING = 'something that does'.

+++

EDIT:

Btw, in English the -ING suffix is used to make a gerund:

http://en.wikipedia....unds_in_English

Or 'being busy with', but in essence its use is the same as in Dutch (and no doubt as in Frisian or old Frisian).

.

It's hel-linga - 2 Frisian words together. slope-dwellers.

linger (v.) dictionary.gif c.1300, lenger "reside, dwell," northern England frequentative of lengen "to tarry," from O.E. lengan "prolong, lengthen," from P.Gmc. *langjan "to make long" (cf. O.Fris. lendza, O.H.G. lengan, Du. lengen "to lengthen"), source of O.E. lang (see long (adj.)). Sense of "delay going, depart slowly and unwillingly" is from 1520s. Related: Lingered; lingering

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=linger

That says lendza for Old Frisian, which must be a derivative of linga/lenga in the Frisian Dictionary.

leng-a

, *ling-a, afries It would relate to length - to make long, as well.

Edited by The Puzzler

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OK, now read this line from the OLB again:

Hja wêron mith felum tekad aend hju hêdon hjara skula vppa hellinga thêra bergum. Thêrthrvch send hja thrvch vs folk Hellinggar hêten.

They were clothed in skins, and had their dwellings on the slopes (hellinga) of the hills, wherefore they were called Hellingers.

If I use your translation, I will get this:

They were clothed in skins, and had their dwellings on the slope-dwellers of the hills, wherefore they were called Hellingers.

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And what is your opinion about this post of mine (I hope I will not waste your precious time again...) :

It's not only 'Middle-Dutch' (which is closely related to Oldfrisian anyway.

Hettema (1832): Helde = "voet des dijks" ('foot' of a dike)

(hope you didn't that remark about my time too seriously;)

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Posted (edited)

hellinga then, as just the hills, not the Hellingars, would probably be hill lengths/slopes. hel-linga = hill/incline lengths = slopes

(linger (v.) dictionary.gif c.1300, lenger "reside, dwell," northern England frequentative of lengen "to tarry," from O.E. lengan "prolong, lengthen," from P.Gmc. *langjan "to make long" (cf. O.Fris. lendza, )

Then hellingars as hill lingerers, which is a derivative of long - linga longa - or as we say 'linger longer' - as a phrase to stay awhile more.

OK, now read this line from the OLB again:

Hja wêron mith felum tekad aend hju hêdon hjara skula vppa hellinga thêra bergum. Thêrthrvch send hja thrvch vs folk Hellinggar hêten.

They were clothed in skins, and had their dwellings on the slopes (hellinga) of the hills, wherefore they were called Hellingers.

If I use your translation, I will get this:

They were clothed in skins, and had their dwellings on the slope-dwellers of the hills, wherefore they were called Hellingers.

OK, I gave you my answer above beacuse I knew it was what you meant.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Posted (edited)

I know you don't read Dutch, but the 'etymologiebank' site shows only a middle Dutch word as the oldest form for 'helling'.

In case my eyes failed me again, lol, I hope you or Otharus give that link a try.

It's also old-Saxon and old-German (from the verb HELDEN or HELLEN):

HELDEN

Woordsoort: ww(zw., intr., trans.)

Modern lemma: hellen

zw. ww. intr. en trans. Mnd. helden, hellen; mhd. helden; osa. -heldian; ags. heldan, hyldan; ohd. helden. Over den oorsprong en de verwante vormen, waaronder ohd. haldâ, mhd. halde, berghelling, en waarschijnlijk mnl. bijw. houde, zie Franck op hellen, dat door assimilatie uit helden gevormd is; vgl. spillen uit spilden; 17de-eeuwsch mellen en vinnen uit melden en vinden; enz.

I. Hellen, neigen, overhellen

II. Neigen, buigen

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...emmodern=hellen

Edited by Otharus

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It's not only 'Middle-Dutch' (which is closely related to Oldfrisian anyway.

Hettema (1832): Helde = "voet des dijks" ('foot' of a dike)

(hope you didn't that remark about my time too seriously;)

No, I didn't, lol.

But where does he give "helling" or "hellinga" in his Old Frisian dictionary?

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In Frisian they have hel as slope, not only Dutch -

hel-d-e

(3) 7, afries., F.: nhd. Neigung, Böschung, Deichböschung; ne. slope (N.),

dike-bank; Hw.: s. *hal-d (1); vgl. got. *halþei, ae. hielde (1); E.: s. *hal-d

It's probably only in Dutch, because it was originally in Frisian.

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-H.pdf

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Posted (edited)

It's also old-Saxon and old-German (from the verb HELDEN or HELLEN):

HELDEN

Woordsoort: ww(zw., intr., trans.)

Modern lemma: hellen

zw. ww. intr. en trans. Mnd. helden, hellen; mhd. helden; osa. -heldian; ags. heldan, hyldan; ohd. helden. Over den oorsprong en de verwante vormen, waaronder ohd. haldâ, mhd. halde, berghelling, en waarschijnlijk mnl. bijw. houde, zie Franck op hellen, dat door assimilatie uit helden gevormd is; vgl. spillen uit spilden; 17de-eeuwsch mellen en vinnen uit melden en vinden; enz.

I. Hellen, neigen, overhellen

II. Neigen, buigen

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...emmodern=hellen

SORRY Otharus, I thought this was Abe's post!

I'll remove my reply post.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Posted (edited)

No, I didn't, lol.

But where does he give "helling" or "hellinga" in his Old Frisian dictionary?

Oops, didn't mean to click reply. Sorry for my oops.

Edited by The Puzzler

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It's also old-Saxon and old-German (from the verb HELDEN or HELLEN):

HELDEN

Woordsoort: ww(zw., intr., trans.)

Modern lemma: hellen

zw. ww. intr. en trans. Mnd. helden, hellen; mhd. helden; osa. -heldian; ags. heldan, hyldan; ohd. helden. Over den oorsprong en de verwante vormen, waaronder ohd. haldâ, mhd. halde, berghelling, en waarschijnlijk mnl. bijw. houde, zie Franck op hellen, dat door assimilatie uit helden gevormd is; vgl. spillen uit spilden; 17de-eeuwsch mellen en vinnen uit melden en vinden; enz.

I. Hellen, neigen, overhellen

II. Neigen, buigen

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...emmodern=hellen

Yes, but the word 'helling' is Middle Dutch, and THAT word is used in the OLB.

I know where the word came from, but the OLB uses the word HELLINGA. It doesn't even use HEL-LINGA. And you know that is what often happens in the OLB when it uses a composition.

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OK, I gave you my answer above beacuse I knew it was what you meant.

Puzz, I am not suggesting that - in itself - HEL-LING is wrong, but as you can see in the quoted line of the OLB, it doesn't make sense because HELLINGGAR (with two Gs) is obviously derived from HELLINGA.

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Oops, didn't mean to click reply. Sorry for my oops.

For a minute I thought I was really getting blind, lol.

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Puzz, I am not suggesting that - in itself - HEL-LING is wrong, but as you can see in the quoted line of the OLB, it doesn't make sense because HELLINGGAR (with two Gs) is obviously derived from HELLINGA.

It makes perfect sense - I explained it.

hellinga is just slope itself - hel-length - hill slope

Then Hellinggar is hel-lengthers - which is really hill lingerers, or hill dwellers.

BECAUSE linger is both dwell and length. see linger etymology.

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So, just by coincidence, this composition shows up only in the OLB and in Medieval (MIddle) Dutch.

And as I told Otharus, if it was indeed 'HEL-LINGA' it would have been written like that in the OLB.

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It makes perfect sense - I explained it.

hellinga is just slope itself - hel-length - hill slope

Then Hellinggar is hel-lengthers - which is really hill lingerers, or hill dwellers.

BECAUSE linger is both dwell and length. see linger etymology.

The OLB word for hill is "BERG", and its plural is BERGA.

It only uses the word HELLINGA once more:

Tha thâ svme vrbastere stêdjar rik wêron thrvch vs fâra aend thrvch et sulver, thaet tha slâvona uta sulverlôna wnnon, thâ gvngon hja buta vppa hellinga jefta inda dêla hêma.

but when some degenerate townspeople got rich by sea-voyages and by the silver that their slaves got in the silver countries, they went to live out on the hills or in the valleys.

In Dutch the suffiix -ING is added after a stem that ends with a consonant, when a person with a certain characteristic is meant, the suffix becomes -LING.

Same in old Frisian and no doubt also in the OLB:

Example:

KLEUR = color

KLEUR-ING = coloration

KLEUR-LING = colored person

BANNEN = to ban

BANN-ING = being banned

BANNE-LING = someone who is banned

ZENDEN = to send

ZEND-ING = something sent

ZENDE-LING = someone sent on a mission to convert other people, a missionary

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