Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[The Puzzler]

OK, I think 'seek reason' is good, because that seems to be pretty much what he did, looked for reasoning in the universal state of things and put forth intellectual statements in arguments to adopt actions to the ends, as you say, what a philosopher does.

reason (n.) early 13c., "statement in an argument," also "intellectual faculty that adopts actions to ends," from Anglo-Fr. resoun, O.Fr. raison, from L. rationem (nom. ratio) "reckoning, understanding, motive, cause," from ratus, pp. of reri "to reckon, think," from PIE root *re(i)- "to reason, count" (cf. O.E. rædan "to advise; see read). http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=reason

[The Puzzler]

From PIE root - re(i )- to reason, count.

Count, in order?

I suspect raed (reason) and râdia(to put in order) are connected.

Looking for that PIE root in a possible Frisian word, I found rei-d - reid went to hreid

hriõd

* 3, hreid*, reid*, afries., st. N. (a): nhd. Ried (N.) (1), Rohr; ne. reed

(N.);

Hw.: vgl. ae. hréod, anfrk. ried, as. *hriod?, ahd. riot, mnl. riet;

Seems reed as a last name means ruddy or reddish - but then I found that reed, a plant comes from: hreod, which seems to be alot like hreid - so am guessing that this reed is a plant reed, not red.

Origin:

before 900; Middle English; Old English hrēod; cognate with German, Dutch riet

http://dictionary.re...com/browse/reed

So riet is at hreid - so this word is reed as in plant.

One of the meanings of reed/plant is:

to make vertical grooves on (the edge of a coin, medal, etc.). - a reed was used to make notches in a palm to count up the regnal years in Egypt. I could see a reed, used to make notches, or lined up themselves, is order, and enables you to count, and therefore make reason.

Edited October 16, 2012 by The Puzzler

[NO-ID-EA]

According to Higgins the Gauls called Britain Albion from the Celtic word for lofty, high ... as in Alps, Appenines , Mount Albis , and the high white cliffs at Dover........but over time people connected the word to white thinking they must have got their name from the snow covered tops , and from the chalky white cliffs , and used alb for white in error ..........The Highlanders of Scotland were called the Albanoch , but this name meant they lived in the heights , not because they were white .

However Bochart says Bards or poets called the land Inis Wen , or white Island......but he says the Phoenicians called Ireland Obr-nae , and Britain Alb-in , but he says they meant Ireland was the Island on the West , and britain on the East ?

With the words Sok- red for Socrates , bear in mind the closeness of the two word Sac-red , and Sec-ret ..............These may fall in line with Higgins theory that the philosophers were the holders of their peoples origins ,and therefore ancient claims to ownership of the land , and why they adopted secret alphabets to stop other priests changing , and altering them, a conquering priesthood cant change your historic records if he cant read or write your secret ciphers.

OLB includes complaints that the Magi were obtaining copies of their history and were changing them, a warning is for the people not to let the histories fall into the hands of the evil priests , or they would lose their origins, did they invent the Yule alphabet to encode their history , (if only their history needed encoding that could be why not much written in it has been found ) and if the Magi cant alter it , because they cant read or write it , their only option is to destroy it, which is pretty much what happened i think..

Edited October 16, 2012 by NO-ID-EA

[The Puzzler]

According to Higgins the Gauls called Britain Albion from the Celtic word for lofty, high ... as in Alps, Appenines , Mount Albis , and the high white cliffs at Dover........but over time people connected the word to white thinking they must have got their name from the snow covered tops , and from the chalky white cliffs , and used alb for white in error ..........The Highlanders of Scotland were called the Albanoch , but this name meant they lived in the heights , not because they were white .

However Bochart says Bards or poets called the land Inis Wen , or white Island......but he says the Phoenicians called Ireland Obr-nae , and Britain Alb-in , but he says they meant Ireland was the Island on the West , and britain on the East ?

With the words Sok- red for Socrates , bear in mind the closeness of the two word Sac-red , and Sec-ret ..............These may fall in line with Higgins theory that the philosophers were the holders of their peoples origins ,and therefore ancient claims to ownership of the land , and why they adopted secret alphabets to stop other priests changing , and altering them, a conquering priesthood cant change your historic records if he cant read or write your secret ciphers.

OLB includes complaints that the Magi were obtaining copies of their history and were changing them, a warning is for the people not to let the histories fall into the hands of the evil priests , or they would lose their origins, did they invent the Yule alphabet to encode their history , (if only their history needed encoding that could be why not much written in it has been found ) and if the Magi cant alter it , because they cant read or write it , their only option is to destroy it, which is pretty much what happened i think..

Hi NO-ID-EA

Do you know what that Celtic word was, that meant lofty, high?

Maybe it all started with old - ald - alt/alp depending on who took this word on.

The OLB interestingly tells us that ald became at in the language of the people whose language derived from the Greeks.

Because the older you are, the taller you get and the higher you rise. Elevated status - altar.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/alt

Old High German

Etymology

From Proto-Germanic *aldran, whence also Old English ealdor, Old Norse aldr.

Noun

altar n.

1. age
   

Descendants

• German: Alter
  

Also that Wralda is meaning old but also a sky God, one might think of him as being 'most high' indeed. Because he was old, he was highest, up in the sky, as high as the clouds.

al-d

60, afries., Adj.: nhd. alt; ne. old (Adj.); ÜG.: lat. antÆquus L 9; Vw.: s. -hê-d;

Hw.: vgl. ae. eald, as. ald, ahd. alt (2), plattd. ol, ald; Q.: E, H, R, W, S, B, Jur, L

9; E.: germ. *alda-, *aldaz, Adj., alt; s. idg. *al- (2), *h

2el-, V., wachsen (V.) (1),

nähren, Pokorny 26, EWAhd 1, 171; W.: nfries. aod, oad; W.: saterl. ald; W.:

nnordfries. uld, ul, al; L.: Hh 2b, Rh 59

---------------------------

al-t-are

* 27, al-t-er, afries., st. M. (a?), st. N. (a?): nhd. Altar; ne. altar; Vw.: s.

frâ-n-a-; Hw.: vgl. an. altari, ae. alter, altar, as. altari, alteri, ahd. altõri; Q.: R, E,

B, W, S, Schw, Jur; I.: Lw. lat. altõre; E.: s. lat. altõre, N., Aufsatz auf dem

Opfertisch, Opferherd, Brandaltar; s. lat. adolÐre, V., duften, Opfer auflodern

lassen, verbrennen; vgl. idg. *al- (4), V., brennen, Pokorny 28; W.: nfries. alter;

W.: saterl. alter; L.: Hh 3a, Rh 601b

al-t-er

, afries., M., N.: Vw.: s. al-t-are*

Edited October 16, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Just to add to my above post in saying Wralda was a sky God: Radien or Vearalden was a sky-ruling god. http://en.wikipedia..../Sami_mythology

I'm editing the rest of this post before I add it.

Edited October 16, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I will add that I think the WR in Wralda is from war/wara - keep/keeper/watcher/protector - rather than man - wer/vir based on the name of Waralden Olmai.

Edited October 16, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Otharus]

With the words Sok- red for Socrates , bear in mind the closeness of the two word Sac-red , and Sec-ret... These may fall in line with Higgins theory ...

Creative idea, ID, but sacred seems to be derived from sacer (holy),

and secret from se-cernere (to separate oneself).

~

Higgins inspired me too.

"Almost all the latter part of my life has been spent

unlearning the nonsense I learned in my youth"

~ Godfrey Higgins (1772-1833)

Edited October 16, 2012 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

"- It has been said many times in this thread that linguistics is not an exact science, meaning: we all can have a shot at it. Heh, I agree, so why use it to prove the OLB? It won't prove anything. It's mere play with words."

[Abramelin]

To Puzz: the Irish word for 'High" is 'Ard'.

Remember, the "Ard Ri", the "High King"?

Sorry Puzz, but your memory must be like Swiss cheese (= BIG holes), because I have posted about that for pages on end.

I am getting tired if all this wordfk.

It won't prove a thing concerning the OLB.

But I know the three or four of you will continue flooding this thread with lego-linguistics from now on, and I don't want to be part of it.

[The Puzzler]

To Puzz: the Irish word for 'High" is 'Ard'.

Remember, the "Ard Ri", the "High King"?

Sorry Puzz, but your memory must be like Swiss cheese (= BIG holes), because I have posted about that for pages on end.

I am getting tired if all this wordfk.

It won't prove a thing concerning the OLB.

But I know the three or four of you will continue flooding this thread with lego-linguistics from now on, and I don't want to be part of it.

Sometimes I'm too busy to read all the posts here and might miss a few days. Sorry I overdosed on etymologies, I had alot of free time yesterday and you all are asleep when I'm in the day, so I just go on and on...and on...lol

I actually know the word is ARD, how does that get to 'alba'? You don't have to answer, just saying, I don't see ard as being anything like alba or assocated alba words. I thought that NO-ID-EA might have meant another word.http://www.wesleyjoh...placenames.html

Funny though, ard is a plough, which is high in the sky, in the constellations.

The OLB actually is alot about the language - it emphasises this numerous times. It explains words meanings ie; rum means spacious and tells us how the language has been debased and changed. It even gives us the Fryan alphabet.

If that part of the OLB is not for you, fine - but imo it is what WILL prove the OLB or at least the story they created to make us aware of this. The more you look at the etymologies the more you see the ridiculous words they create calling *proto, when what seems an obvious root word is sitting right there in the Frisian dictionary. (It also seems a possibility that whoever was writing Frisian dictionaries and seeing this, was also involved in the OLB creation IF it is 19th century created. You'd have to know words inside out to have written the OLB.)

The Geertmannen I can readily pass by. I have not had much to do with them, but as far as I have seen they have mostly retained their language and customs. I cannot say that of the others. Those who descend from the Greeks speak a bad language, and have not much to boast of in their manners. Many have brown eyes and hair. They are envious and impudent, and cowardly from superstition. When they speak, they put the words first that ought to come last. For old they say at; for salt, sât; and for man, ma—too many to mention. They also use abbreviations of names, which have no meaning. The Joniers speak better, but they drop the H, and put it where it ought not to be.

----

When Wr-alda gave children to the mothers of mankind, he gave one language to every tongue and to all lips. This gift Wr-alda had bestowed upon men in order that by its means they might make known to each other what must be avoided and what must be followed to find salvation, and to hold salvation to all eternity. Wr-alda is wise and good, and all-foreseeing. As he knew that happiness and holiness would flee from the earth when wickedness could overcome virtue, he has attached to the language an equitable property. This property consists in this, that men can neither lie nor use deceitful words without stammering or blushing, by which means the innately bad are easily known.

As thus our language opens the way to happiness and blessedness, and thus helps to guard against evil inclinations, it is rightly named the language of the gods, and all those by whom it is held in honour derive honour from it. But what has happened? As soon as among our half brothers and sisters deceivers arose, who gave themselves out as servants of the good, it soon became otherwise.

----

If you wish that you alone should inherit the earth, you must never allow any language but God’s language to pass your lips, and take care that your own language remains free from outlandish sounds. If you wish that some of Lyda’s children and some of Finda’s children remain, you must do the same. The language of the East Schoonlanders has been perverted by the vile Magyars, and the language of the followers of Kaltana has been spoiled by the dirty Gauls. Now, we have been weak enough to admit among us the returned followers of Hellenia, but I anxiously fear that they will reward our weakness by debasing our pure language.

Edited October 17, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

How about some history then?

This is an interesting bit imo - it explains who the Gauls were, as missionary priests who led an expedition to Cadiz and up into Britain, where people who had become Kelts through Kalta taking residence there - then the Gauls (from Sidon/Phoenicia) take over the Kelts, because they had no lamps etc, lost their Fryan ways through the Kalta episode, the Kelts therefore were merged into a Gaulish people, who originally came in from Phoenicia, seemingly also called Thyriers (Tyrians) - the Gauls were probably just the priests. They, the Druids, really controlled the whole Keltic, now 'Gaulish' people, who promoted the behaviour even, losing their Fryan values. The Kelts of Britain, probably after Kalta's time, just weakened out to the Gauls too, Druid led mixed Celtic-Fryan population, inundated with women from Phoenicia, to breed into the population.

I wonder how true this is....

-------

Then came the Gauls out of the Mediterranean Sea with their ships to Cadiz, and along all our coasts, and fell upon Britain; but they could not make any good footing there, because the government was powerful and the exiles were still Frisians. But now came Kalta and said: You were born free, and for small offences have been sent away, not for your own improvement, but to get tin by your labour. If you wish to be free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away. I will provide you with arms, and will watch over you. The news flew through the land like lightning, and before the carrier’s wheel had made one revolution she was mistress of all the Thyriers in all our southern states as far as the Seine. She built herself a citadel on the high land to the north, and called it Kaltasburgh. It still exists under the name of Kêrenak. From this castle she ruled as a true mother, against their will, not for her followers, but over them, who were thenceforth called Kelts. The Gauls gradually obtained dominion over the whole of Britain, partly because they no longer had any citadel; secondly, because they had there no Burgtmaagden; and thirdly, because they had no real lamps. From all these causes the people could not learn anything. They were stupid and foolish, and having allowed the Gauls to rob them of their arms, they were led about like a bull with a ring in his nose.

The Golen, as the missionary priests of Sidon were called, had observed that the land there was thinly peopled, and was far from the mother. In order to make a favourable impression, they had themselves called in our language followers of the truth; but they had better have been called abstainers from the truth, or, in short, “Triuwenden,” as our seafaring people afterwards called them. When they were well established, their merchants exchanged their beautiful copper weapons and all sorts of jewels for our iron weapons and hides of wild beasts, which were abundant in our southern countries; but the Golen celebrated all sorts of vile and monstrous festivals, which the inhabitants of the coast promoted with their wanton women and sweet poisonous wine.

[Otharus]

I know the three or four of you will continue flooding this thread with lego-linguistics from now on, and I don't want to be part of it.

Go seek reason somewhere else then.

Good bye.

[Otharus]

The OLB actually is alot about the language - it emphasises this numerous times. It explains words meanings ie; rum means spacious and tells us how the language has been debased and changed. It even gives us the Fryan alphabet.

If that part of the OLB is not for you, fine - but imo it is what WILL prove the OLB or at least the story they created to make us aware of this. The more you look at the etymologies the more you see the ridiculous words they create calling *proto, when what seems an obvious root word is sitting right there in the Frisian dictionary.

Exactly.

[Otharus]

Abe, I know you just had a bad mood last night and that you will be back.

I had those moments too.

Thinking about the origins of language is not your thing, so just ignore that for now.

I asked you three serious questions that you have not answered yet:

You believe it is a 19th century hoax.

I believe it is a 13th century manuscript (or a copy of it).

If it is a (copy of a) 13th C. manuscript, that does not mean that all information in it has to be true, as in theory it could still all be fiction.

This already disqualifies several of your arguments, does it not?

So why - in your opinion - does it have to be a 19th C. hoax and can it not be a (copy of a) 13th C. manuscript?

Or can it?

[Otharus]

- This same man [Cornelis Over de Linden] owned books of which we can almost read literal quotes from in the OLB (Volney's "The Ruines" for instance - check my OLB blog in my signature), plus books about ancient scripts, Old Frisian language, and books about Greek and Roman legends and myths, mythology in general, ship-building, and so on.

1) Volney: Please give at least one specific example of those 'almost literal quotes'.

It is unknown if he had Volney's book before or after OLB was translated and published.

Some things in OLB agree with Volney, others don't.

Volney is not fiction, it was based on research, similar to what we try to do.

If Cornelis was raised with ideas and trivia from the manuscript (his grandfather may still have been able to read it), Volney will indeed have appealed to him.

2) Books about scripts, language, mythology: From 1848 till 1867 he tried to figure out the manuscript by himself. Herds of people were and are interested in mythology.

3) Books about ship-building: He was a ship builder!

[Otharus]

- The OLB was in the possession of a man [Cornelis Over de Linden] who wanted his family history to look greater than life.

That he "wanted his family history to look greater than life" is your interpretation, but we can agree that he had a touch of megalomania.

If it is true that his grandfather told him something about his descent when he was a little boy, and his father boosted about it too (as witnesses have reported), his megalomanic touch is perfectly understandable without having to conclude that OLB must be a hoax.

[Otharus]

- One testimony - from his grandson - said that in the evening several learned men came around in Enkhuizen, discussed what this guy, Over de Linden , had fabricated during the days before, and that they "all roared with laughter".

This 'testimony' was written down - a century after it was supposed to have happened - by the housekeeper of this grandson's wife. She had it out of the third hand.

It is understandable that some members of the family had wished that Cornelis had never made the manuscript public.

There are testimonies under oath from the 1870s that confirm OLB's authenticity. Because they don't fit your theory, you label those as lies, while you take third-hand gossip seriously. If you want to be skeptic, you should be consequent.

[Knul]

This 'testimony' was written down - a century after it was supposed to have happened - by the housekeeper of this grandson's wife. She had it out of the third hand.

It is understandable that some members of the family had wished that Cornelis had never made the manuscript public.

There are testimonies under oath from the 1870s that confirm OLB's authenticity. Because they don't fit your theory, you label those as lies, while you take third-hand gossip seriously. If you want to be skeptic, you should be consequent.

What testimonies under oath do you mean ?

[Knul]

2) Books about scripts, language, mythology: From 1848 till 1867 he tried to figure out the manuscript by himself. Herds of people were and are interested in mythology.

The learned books were from the Stadermann library. CoL could not read them

[Knul]

I will add that I think the WR in Wralda is from war/wara - keep/keeper/watcher/protector - rather than man - wer/vir based on the name of Waralden Olmai.

wralda means simply world and irtha earth.

[Knul]

Lets refine the question.

You believe it is a 19th century hoax.

I believe it is a 13th century manuscript (or a copy of it).

If it is a (copy of a) 13th C. manuscript, that does not mean that all information in it has to be true, as in theory it could still all be fiction.

This already disqualifies several of your arguments, does it not?

So why - in your opinion - does it have to be a 19th C. hoax and can it not be a (copy of a) 13th C. manuscript?

Or can it?

If so, who adapted the language to 19th century standard Dutch ?

[The Puzzler]

wralda means simply world and irtha earth.

I know that but the word Wr'alda is imo made up of two words, that is what world would actually really mean.

ancient protector or something like that.

Edited October 17, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Otharus]

What testimonies under oath do you mean?

I will answer this later as I need to check my source.

[Otharus]

The learned books were from the Stadermann library.

CoL could not read them

What is your exaxt source for these two statements?

[Otharus]

wralda means simply world and irtha earth.

WRALDA also means over-old-one (oer-oude), hence the dot that is usually placed between WR and ALDA.

JRTHA can also mean ore (erts).

So they don't "simply" mean world and earth, but are ambiguous, as many other OLB words.

If so, who adapted the language to 19th century standard Dutch?

I do not take this question seriously.