Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 11
Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

6,100 posts in this topic

So you're saying that the story about the Gola arriving in Massilia is nothing but an intermezzo, and not necessarily in chronological order?

Btw, this is the chapter:

OLB: Hwat thêr of wrden is.

Me (DU): Wat ervan geworden is

Me (EN): What it has become

Sandbach: WHAT THE CONSEQUENCE OF THIS WAS.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#ay

It suggests that it was a direct consequence, or result of what went on before.

.

It appears it does come AFTER the prior paragraph but does not need to have occurred before the following paragraph events concerning Minerva.

KNUL: You may call it flash-backs, not pertaining to the actual history, which is largely based on wittness reports.

Yes.

Edited by The Puzzler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It appears it does come AFTER the prior paragraph but does not need to have occurred before the following paragraph events concerning Minerva.

Really?

This is the title of the next chapter:

NOW WE WILL WRITE ABOUT THE WAR BETWEEN THE BURGTMAAGDEN KALTA AND MIN-ERVA,

And how we thereby lost all our southern lands and Britain to the Gola.

So you have this chapter about why and when the Gola arrived for the first time in Massilia, and then you have a chapter about how the Fryans lost their land to the Gola.

Seems to be in chronological order, doesn't it?

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really?

This is the title of the next chapter:

NOW WE WILL WRITE ABOUT THE WAR BETWEEN THE BURGTMAAGDEN KALTA AND MIN-ERVA,

And how we thereby lost all our southern lands and Britain to the Gola.

So you have this chapter about why and when the Gola arrived for the first time in Massilia, and then you have a chapter about how the Fryans lost their land to the Gola.

Seems to be in chronological order, doesn't it?

.

No, because it has just said AND how we lost all our southern lands to the Gola - so the losing of the lands, inc. Marseille would be AFTER the war between Kalta and Minerva.

The mention of the buying of Marseille by the Phoencians is not before the war between Kalta and Minerva - even though that paragraph is before the paragraph of the Kalta-Minerva war.

Kalta does go to Marseille - so that says to me it is possible that at that time Marseille was in control by the Sidon druids, which is a point on your side.

Edited by The Puzzler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I go with your version, it is completely possible imo that priests from Sidon could have been in the area of Marseilles as early as around 1500BC.

It could be connected to who the actual Tyrhennians were. We class them as a type of Etruscan now, sailors, pirates and people who had powerful priests as well.

For all we know these people may have been led by Sidonese priests, later becoming druids and this area was always abit of a Celtic/Gaul mix area.

Edited by The Puzzler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oddly enough I managed to find this:

The ancient name of Genoa comes from the word "knee" (Genua) or the gate to the sea or "jaw", the mouth to the sea. It was founded around 2,000 B.C. by the Phoenicians who sailed in from Tyre in Phoenicia. They came through from their settlement in Corsica and settled in Genoa with the Pagu or Tribe of Ambrones, one of the earliest ancestors of the Celts from Iberia. There is archaeological evidence in Chiavari of chariot-grave -- the "inverted bell cup" culture -- that proves this lineage. They had dominion over the Province of Padany and the area between the Eridanu River (now Po River) and Etrury. The Romans called them Ligures from the Latin verb "to settle behind."

Read more: Phoenicia, Phoenicians Founded Genoa http://www.phoenicia.org/genoa.html#ixzz2IgHpApeI

2000BC Phoenicians sailed and settled around Genoa with the tribe of the AMBRONES (Ligurians).

Apparently their is archaeological evidence of this.

Well thats rather interesting if true.

That's the scenario I'm envisioning. People from Canaan, early Phoenicians, arriving in Ligurian area or here Genoa and mixing, so we dont know exactly who they are now.

Genetics puts J2, a Levant group in Italy too.

More of my idea: they became who we know as Tyrhennoi.

The community of Phoenicians and Ambrones inhabitants of Genoa became pirates of the Mediterranean and were called Thyrrenoi by the Greeks. Further, they were employed as mercenaries. This is mentioned in the legend of Hercules when he returned from the mythical pillars (Gibraltar or the Pillars of Hercules) and was stopped by two sons of the Sea God, Poseidon, Albiones and Ligures.

Read more: Phoenicia, Phoenicians Founded Genoa http://www.phoenicia.org/genoa.html#ixzz2IgIhSc9O

The Pheonicio-Celtic settlers, or the Ligures, worshipped the god Belanu. The name comes from Bel in Celtic which means light [or from Ba'al or God in Phoenician]. There is also a suggestion that the name comes from the name of a mythical king of Tyre called Belu. Further, this god is said to have protected them from the Gryphon, a mythological beast and an archaic Mesopotamian symbol. They cremated their dead heroes and used human sacrifice in their worship every year in the month of May. They used animal names to call each other such as "Arthu" (bear), Bennu (crow), Moccu (wild bore) or Hirpu (wolf).

The Ligures were divided in three social classes, the Druids or Priests, the Military equipped with chariots, bows, spears, shields and mystical necklaces, and the Working class. A king ruled them all.

The main produce of the Ligures was the cultivation and production of olives and olive oil. It was thence exported all over the Mediterranean and the then known world.

There are reports of their megalithic monuments that date back to 1,500 BC and illegible inscription, now preserved at the Bocconi private collection. The first report of their readable phrases goes back to 800 B.C. with vertical Indo-European wedge characters preserved at the Archaeological Museum of Genoa. Of the legible text the word "Mezunemusu" or central sanctuary is identified. The word comes from Nemusu or sacred wood, the sanctuary of the Celtic tribes.

In the 8th century B.C., Pheonicio-Celts of Genoa co-founded Massalia or Marseilles with more Phoenicians.

or Greeks from Phocaea.

Read more: Phoenicia, Phoenicians Founded Genoa http://www.phoenicia.org/genoa.html#ixzz2IgJ8ORkg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is about the dealings of Teunis with the people in Sidon:

When they were well established, they sent some old seamen and Magyars on an expedition as far as the town of Sidon; but at first the inhabitants of the coast would have nothing to do with them, saying, You are only foreign adventurers whom we do not respect. But when we sold them some of our iron weapons, everything went well. They also wished to buy our amber, and their inquiries about it were incessant. But Teunis, who was far-seeing, pretended that he had no more iron weapons or amber. Then merchants came and begged him to let them have twenty vessels, which they would freight with the finest goods, and they would provide as many people to row as he would require. Twelve ships were then laden with wine, honey, tanned leather, and saddles and bridles mounted in gold, such as had never been seen before.

Then the result of not paying attention to what the Mother had advised:

Teunis sailed to the Flymeer with all this treasure, which so enchanted the Grevetman of Westflyland that he induced Teunis to build a warehouse at the mouth of the Flymeer. Afterwards this place was called Almanaland, and the market where they traded at Wyringen was called Toelaatmarkt. The mother advised that they should sell everything except iron weapons, but no attention was paid to what she said. As the Thyriers had thus free play, they came from far and near to take away our goods, to the loss of our seafaring people. Therefore it was resolved in a general assembly to allow only seven Thyrian ships and no more in a year.

(...)

The result: the people from Sidon (the priests called Gola, Phoenicians or Canaannites) had heard of the riches and stuff from the Tyrians (who were not Phoenicians), and set out to see for themselves where it all came from:

WHAT THE CONSEQUENCE OF THIS WAS/ What had become of it.

In the northernmost part of the Mediterranean there lies an island close to the coast. They now came and asked to buy that, on which a general council was held.

The mother’s advice was asked, and she wished to see them at some distance, so she saw no harm in it; but as we afterwards saw what a mistake we had made, we called the island Missellia. Hereafter will be seen what reason we had. The Gola, as the missionary priests of Sidon were called, had observed that the land there was thinly peopled, and was far from the mother.

Then Kalta's dealings with the Gola (or Golum as the original text says. A dative plural):

When Kalta found that her scheme had failed she was still more vexed, so she secretly sent for the Magyars to teach her conjuring. When she had had enough of this she threw herself into the hands of the Gola;

So from this last paragraph we get the idea the Gola were established in Massilia.

From the story of Jon:

His fighting men and many of our people took women and children on board, and when Jon saw that he and his people would be punished for their misdeeds, he secretly took his departure. He did well, for all our islanders, and the other Scheldt people who had been fighting were transported to Britain. This step was a mistake, for now came the beginning of the end. Kalta, who, people said, could go as easily on the water as on the land, went to the mainland and on to Missellia. Then came the Gola out of the Mediterranean Sea with their ships to Kadik, and along all our coasts, and fell upon Britain; but they could not make any good footing there, because the government was powerful and the exiles were still Fryans.

And read the rest.

So:

-1- Teunis and his men meet the people in Sidon

-2- People from Sidon settle on Massilia

-3- Disagreement between Min-erva and Kalta, then war

-4- Kalta turns to the Gola and with them sails to Britain and eventually a people is formed from those that were banned from the Fryan lands (Britain was a penal colony of the Fryans) and the Gola: these people are named after her: Kaltana (or Kalts, Celts).

Agreed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From the link in your post, Puzzker:

Anciently named Genua ="knee" as the sea shores shape or ="door" gate to the sea or ="jaw" mouth to the sea , was founded probably around 2'000 b.c. by "Sea People", the Fenix ( Or called "Phoenicians"one of the first civilization of mankind-history.) who sailed into the most comfortable bay of that site, from Tyrus (now in Lebanon) thru' Corsic and settle themselves upon a substrate of the Celtic "Pagu"(=Tribe) of Ambrones, the most ancient Celtic stock with Iberis, (Occidental-Hallstattian Kelti) of the "upset-bell cup" culture as prove the reports found in a chariot-grave in Chiavari, whose dominion was from Provence to Padany and from the river "Eridanu"(now "Po" river) to Etrury, they were called later by latins the "Ligures" (from latin verb "to be settled behind").

I think someone was a bit over-enthousiastic...

======

Ancient era and early Middle Ages

Genoa's history goes back to ancient times. The first historically known inhabitants of the area are the Ligures.

A city cemetery, dating from the 6th and 5th centuries BC, testifies to the occupation of the site by the Greeks, but the fine harbor was probably in use much earlier, perhaps by the Etruscans. It is also probable that the Phoenicians had bases in Genoa, or in the nearby area, since an inscription with an alphabet similar to that used in Tyre has been found [citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoa

How much earlier? Hence someone added: "citation needed".

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Phoenicians themselves via info from Herodotus put themselves arriving c. 2800BC and the letters of Cadmus in Greece c. 2000BC.

If we imagine these people of Canaan they really should have been around for a long time prior to 1200BC, when they are first popping up in mentions.

Then these sailors are suppose to arrived, 2800BC from Arabia - Jews and Lebanese inherit the Arab nose as it mixed in to local populations.

Io is taken by Phoenicians and she is the earliest Greek woman mentioned of note - she goes to Egypt, taken by Phoenicians.

We also see prior to 1600BC in Akrotiri a plethora of ships sailing the Mediterranean Sea, with black people on them, possibly travelling the whole Aegean and Mediterranean, prior to the eruption at 17000 - 1600BC.

Whats the time frame of Io and the earliest Greek mythologies?

Phoenicians were in Greece everywhere, at Thebes particularly and I also believe Thebes in Egypt. They probably had an association with the Hyksos when in rule in the Egyptian delta.

It wouldn't be hard to see why in the period of Punic takeovers by Greeks and Romans their old history would be covered up, so Greeks and Romans could shine through. So many people don't even realize Alexander wasn't really Greek but Macedonian. They (Greece and Rome) just both consumed the historical and religious events of the period I believe. From writing Bibles to literate notables, who knows what has been changed and suppressed over time to give them new histories.

The Iliad and also Virgils writings of how the Romans came from Troy, what is all that? I've spent years now trying to comprehend these events and they just don't gel. Virgil has the Trojans of Aeneus fighting Etruscans, a very odd thing going on if one arrived 1200BC and one not until 800BC. It's all made up nonsense to baffle us with bull****.

Let's not forget Egeria in all of this:

In this myth she is shown as counselor and guide to King Numa in the establishment of the original framework of laws and rituals of Rome, and in this role she is somehow uniquely in Roman mythology associated with "sacred books"; Numa (Latin "numen" designates "the expressed will of a deity"[4]) is reputed to have written down the teachings of Egeria in "sacred books" that he made bury with him; when some chance accident brought them back to light some 400 years later, they were deemed by the Senate inappropriate for disclosure to the people and destroyed by their order;[5] what made them inappropriate was certainly of "political" nature but apparently has not been handed down by Valerius Antias, the source that Plutarch was using.Dionysius of Halicarnassus hints that they were actually kept as a very close secret by the Pontifices

http://en.wikipedia....eria_(mythology)

I won't use that as an excuse particularly but certainly don't think it helps matters of investigation in these areas when looking at the 2 groups, one who took over the world and one who was taken off the world.

Edited by The Puzzler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is about the dealings of Teunis with the people in Sidon:

When they were well established, they sent some old seamen and Magyars on an expedition as far as the town of Sidon; but at first the inhabitants of the coast would have nothing to do with them, saying, You are only foreign adventurers whom we do not respect. But when we sold them some of our iron weapons, everything went well. They also wished to buy our amber, and their inquiries about it were incessant. But Teunis, who was far-seeing, pretended that he had no more iron weapons or amber. Then merchants came and begged him to let them have twenty vessels, which they would freight with the finest goods, and they would provide as many people to row as he would require. Twelve ships were then laden with wine, honey, tanned leather, and saddles and bridles mounted in gold, such as had never been seen before.

Then the result of not paying attention to what the Mother had advised:

Teunis sailed to the Flymeer with all this treasure, which so enchanted the Grevetman of Westflyland that he induced Teunis to build a warehouse at the mouth of the Flymeer. Afterwards this place was called Almanaland, and the market where they traded at Wyringen was called Toelaatmarkt. The mother advised that they should sell everything except iron weapons, but no attention was paid to what she said. As the Thyriers had thus free play, they came from far and near to take away our goods, to the loss of our seafaring people. Therefore it was resolved in a general assembly to allow only seven Thyrian ships and no more in a year.

(...)

The result: the people from Sidon (the priests called Gola, Phoenicians or Canaannites) had heard of the riches and stuff from the Tyrians (who were not Phoenicians), and set out to see for themselves where it all came from:

WHAT THE CONSEQUENCE OF THIS WAS/ What had become of it.

In the northernmost part of the Mediterranean there lies an island close to the coast. They now came and asked to buy that, on which a general council was held.

The mother’s advice was asked, and she wished to see them at some distance, so she saw no harm in it; but as we afterwards saw what a mistake we had made, we called the island Missellia. Hereafter will be seen what reason we had. The Gola, as the missionary priests of Sidon were called, had observed that the land there was thinly peopled, and was far from the mother.

Then Kalta's dealings with the Gola (or Golum as the original text says. A dative plural):

When Kalta found that her scheme had failed she was still more vexed, so she secretly sent for the Magyars to teach her conjuring. When she had had enough of this she threw herself into the hands of the Gola;

So from this last paragraph we get the idea the Gola were established in Massilia.

From the story of Jon:

His fighting men and many of our people took women and children on board, and when Jon saw that he and his people would be punished for their misdeeds, he secretly took his departure. He did well, for all our islanders, and the other Scheldt people who had been fighting were transported to Britain. This step was a mistake, for now came the beginning of the end. Kalta, who, people said, could go as easily on the water as on the land, went to the mainland and on to Missellia. Then came the Gola out of the Mediterranean Sea with their ships to Kadik, and along all our coasts, and fell upon Britain; but they could not make any good footing there, because the government was powerful and the exiles were still Fryans.

And read the rest.

So:

-1- Teunis and his men meet the people in Sidon

-2- People from Sidon settle on Massilia

-3- Disagreement between Min-erva and Kalta, then war

-4- Kalta turns to the Gola and with them sails to Britain and eventually a people is formed from those that were banned from the Fryan lands (Britain was a penal colony of the Fryans) and the Gola: these people are named after her: Kaltana (or Kalts, Celts).

Agreed?

OK. Agreed.

I'll go on the Phoenicians arriving earlier in area of Marseille than said 800BC by history instead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From the link in your post, Puzzker:

Anciently named Genua ="knee" as the sea shores shape or ="door" gate to the sea or ="jaw" mouth to the sea , was founded probably around 2'000 b.c. by "Sea People", the Fenix ( Or called "Phoenicians"one of the first civilization of mankind-history.) who sailed into the most comfortable bay of that site, from Tyrus (now in Lebanon) thru' Corsic and settle themselves upon a substrate of the Celtic "Pagu"(=Tribe) of Ambrones, the most ancient Celtic stock with Iberis, (Occidental-Hallstattian Kelti) of the "upset-bell cup" culture as prove the reports found in a chariot-grave in Chiavari, whose dominion was from Provence to Padany and from the river "Eridanu"(now "Po" river) to Etrury, they were called later by latins the "Ligures" (from latin verb "to be settled behind").

I think someone was a bit over-enthousiastic...

======

Ancient era and early Middle Ages

Genoa's history goes back to ancient times. The first historically known inhabitants of the area are the Ligures.

A city cemetery, dating from the 6th and 5th centuries BC, testifies to the occupation of the site by the Greeks, but the fine harbor was probably in use much earlier, perhaps by the Etruscans. It is also probable that the Phoenicians had bases in Genoa, or in the nearby area, since an inscription with an alphabet similar to that used in Tyre has been found [citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoa

How much earlier? Hence someone added: "citation needed".

.

Yeah I know, I was more surprised I actually found someone who had the same idea as I was tossing around.

I don't think it's that impossible. In fact, I find it most logical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I know, I was more surprised I actually found someone who had the same idea as I was tossing around.

I don't think it's that impossible. In fact, I find it most logical.

I am trying to find some archeology website,

For now only this:

Among the most outstanding colonies or trading posts (LOL) which the Phoenicians had established were the cities of Genoa, where they went in with the Celts and established a flourishing colony, and Marseille which they started as nothing more than a trading post before it became fully Hellenized.

It is very probable that the tremendous colonial activity of the Phoenicians and Carthaginians was stimulated in the 8th to 6th centuries BC by the military blows that were wrecking the trade of the Phoenician homeland in the Levant. Also, competition with the synchronous Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean cannot be ignored as a contributing factor.

The earliest site outside the Phoenician homeland known to possess important aspects of Phoenician culture is Ugarit (Ras Shamra), about six miles north of Latakia. The site was already occupied before the 4th millennium BC, but the Phoenicians only became prominent there around 1991-1786 BC.

According to Herodotus, the coast of Libya along the sea which washes it to the north, throughout its entire length from Egypt to Cape Soloeis, which is its furthest point, is inhabited by Libyans of many distinct tribes who possess the whole tract except certain portions which belong to the Phoenicians and the Greeks.

Tyre's first colony, Utica in North Africa, was founded perhaps as early as the 10th century BC. It is likely that the expansion of the Phoenicians at the beginning of the 1st millennium BC is to be connected with the alliance of Hiram of Tyre with Solomon of Israel in the second half of the 10th century BC. In the following century, Phoenician presence in the north is shown by inscriptions at Samal (Zincirli Hüyük) in eastern Cilicia, and in the 8th century at Karatepe in the Taurus Mountains, but there is no evidence of direct colonization. Both these cities acted as fortresses commanding the routes through the mountains to the mineral and other wealth of Anatolia.

http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/geoghist/histories/oldcivilization/phoenicia/colonies/colonies.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK. Agreed.

I'll go on the Phoenicians arriving earlier in area of Marseille than said 800BC by history instead.

Uhmmm.... this was the timeline according to the OLB. And it's 600 BCE, not 800 BCE according to history.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<snip>

Tyre's first colony, Utica in North Africa, was founded perhaps as early as the 10th century BC. It is likely that the expansion of the Phoenicians at the beginning of the 1st millennium BC is to be connected with the alliance of Hiram of Tyre with Solomon of Israel in the second half of the 10th century BC. In the following century, Phoenician presence in the north is shown by inscriptions at Samal (Zincirli Hüyük) in eastern Cilicia, and in the 8th century at Karatepe in the Taurus Mountains, but there is no evidence of direct colonization. Both these cities acted as fortresses commanding the routes through the mountains to the mineral and other wealth of Anatolia.

http://www.cartage.o...s/colonies.html

Utica's beginnings

Utica was founded as a port located on the trade route leading to the Straits of Gibraltar and the Atlantic, thus facilitating Phoenician trade in the Mediterranean.[5] The actual founding date of Utica is controversial. Several classical authors date its foundation around 1100 BC. The archaeological evidence, however, suggests a foundation no earlier than the eighth century BC. Although Carthage was later founded about 40 km. from Utica, records suggest “that until 540 BC Utica was still maintaining political and economic autonomy in relation to its powerful Carthaginian neighbor”.[5] By the fourth century BC, Utica came under Punic control but continued to exist as a privileged ally of Carthage.[6]

http://en.wikipedia..../Utica,_Tunisia

So, either following the classical authors or archeological evidence, it seems unlikely that the Phoenicians settled in Massilia at the time the OLB suggests they did (between 2000 and 1600 BCE).

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uhmmm.... this was the timeline according to the OLB. And it's 600 BCE, not 800 BCE according to history.

Yes, Ive agreed that it seems likely the description as given in the OLB of the buying of Misselja is prior to the Kalta/Minerva war now.

So I stand at the time frame the OLB has it in. I think its possible ships from Canaan had been in the area of Marseille and Genoa from around 1700BC bringing in priests from Sidon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Utica's beginnings

Utica was founded as a port located on the trade route leading to the Straits of Gibraltar and the Atlantic, thus facilitating Phoenician trade in the Mediterranean.[5] The actual founding date of Utica is controversial. Several classical authors date its foundation around 1100 BC. The archaeological evidence, however, suggests a foundation no earlier than the eighth century BC. Although Carthage was later founded about 40 km. from Utica, records suggest “that until 540 BC Utica was still maintaining political and economic autonomy in relation to its powerful Carthaginian neighbor”.[5] By the fourth century BC, Utica came under Punic control but continued to exist as a privileged ally of Carthage.[6]

http://en.wikipedia..../Utica,_Tunisia

So, either following the classical authors or archeological evidence, it seems unlikely that the Phoenicians settled in Massilia at the time the OLB suggests they did (between 2000 and 1600 BCE).

.

Only some Sidonese priests at first, so I doubt we'd see much 'Phoenician' evidence then, Phoenicians were good at taking on local things, becoming a new people in the process. They adapted and took on local Gods, we'd be lucky to see any clear evidence of what we know as Phoenician at that date anyway imo.

Except dna J2, which does happen to be all through Italy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, Ive agreed that it seems likely the description as given in the OLB of the buying of Misselja is prior to the Kalta/Minerva war now.

So I stand at the time frame the OLB has it in. I think its possible ships from Canaan had been in the area of Marseille and Genoa from around 1700BC bringing in priests from Sidon.

Of course it is possible that seafaring people from ancient Canaan arrived in Massilia at that time, but it's not very likely they were called Phoenicians ("Fonesar" or something similar in the OLB).

Their "Palm Land" (according to the OLB) or "Palmyra" didn't exist under that name: it was a Greek/Roman name.

Why would the Fryans give them the name "Phoenicians", and not call them by their own name, the Cnn, or Canana?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only some Sidonese priests at first, so I doubt we'd see much 'Phoenician' evidence then, Phoenicians were good at taking on local things, becoming a new people in the process. They adapted and took on local Gods, we'd be lucky to see any clear evidence of what we know as Phoenician at that date anyway imo.

Except dna J2, which does happen to be all through Italy.

We do see Phoenician influence in Massilia, although this one dates from around 400 BCE: the Massilia Sacrifice Tablet (discovered in 1844) I linked to in a former post. However, it proves they had kept their own religion intact.

And DNA evidence could come from a much later arrival of the Phoenicians.

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course it is possible that seafaring people from ancient Canaan arrived in Massilia at that time, but it's not very likely they were called Phoenicians ("Fonesar" or something similar in the OLB).

Their "Palm Land" (according to the OLB) or "Palmyra" didn't exist under that name: it was a Greek/Roman name.

Why would the Fryans give them the name "Phoenicians", and not call them by their own name, the Cnn, or Canana?

Early on they are just called Thyriers or mentions of the Sidon Gola/Golan.

The area is called Phonisia at that time though, that is Palmland.

Palm Land is Phoenicia imo, not just Palmyra.

Phon can be close to fan, if not the same word, phon-isa could be fan land, as palms look like and were used as. It may be a Fryan word, an area they called Phonisia with Canaan being the local term.

The Greeks may have taken this early known word and interpreted it as Phoenicia, they (the Fryans) might have actually been the inventors of it.

Yes, dna may be later but nevertheless Etruscans show it.

An old wise lady friend I have said something strange when talking about Leonard Cohen, who was Jewish, she said mid sentence..."well, we're all Jewish"...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Early on they are just called Thyriers or mentions of the Sidon Gola/Golan.

The area is called Phonisia at that time though, that is Palmland.

Palm Land is Phoenicia imo, not just Palmyra.

Phon can be close to fan, if not the same word, phon-isa could be fan land, as palms look like and were used as. It may be a Fryan word, an area they called Phonisia with Canaan being the local term.

The Greeks may have taken this early known word and interpreted it as Phoenicia, they (the Fryans) might have actually been the inventors of it.

Yes, dna may be later but nevertheless Etruscans show it.

An old wise lady friend I have said something strange when talking about Leonard Cohen, who was Jewish, she said mid sentence..."well, we're all Jewish"...

"We're all Jewish"... no doubt based on the Bible (Noah and his merry men)

Well, "early on they are just called Thyriers".... it's mentioned in the vary same chapter. The name "Phonisia" suddenly pops up, and is explained as "Palm Land" :

The Gola, as the missionary priests of Sidon were called, had observed that the land there was thinly peopled, and was far from the mother. In order to make a favourable impression, they had themselves called in our language followers of the truth; but they had better have been called abstainers from the truth, or, in short, “triuwendne” as our seafaring people afterwards called them. When they were well established, their merchants exchanged their beautiful copper weapons and all sorts of jewels for our iron weapons and hides of wild beasts, which were abundant in our southern countries; but the Gola celebrated all sorts of vile and monstrous festivals, which the inhabitants of the coast promoted with their wanton women and sweet poisonous wine. If any of our people had so conducted himself that his life was in danger, the Gola afforded him a refuge, and sent him to Phonisia, that is, Palmland.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#ay

I know Phoenicia wasn't only Palmyra, but the OLB suggests the names are equal. Like I live in the Netherlands, but half the world calls my country Holland, which is only a part of the Netherlands. It never fails to irritate the Frisians, lol.

The exact etymology of the name "Palmyra" is unknown, although some scholars believe it was related to the palm trees in the area. Others, however, believe it may have come from an incorrect translation of the name "Tadmor" (cf. Colledge, Seyrig, Starcky, and others).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmyra

It had a Semitic name, but it got its name from the Romans when they discovered it around 30 BCE, and it means "City of Palm Trees":

(Toen de rijke oase, gelegen tussen de Romeinse provincie Syrië en Mesopotamië, omstreeks 30 v.Chr. de aandacht trok van de Romeinen, noemden zij de stad Palmyra (stad van de palmbomen)).

http://nl.wikipedia....almyra_(Syrië)

Phenix or Phoenix has to do with a red-purple color, both for the bird that rose form its ashes and the Phoenician dye. Later on the systematical name for the date palm became "Phoenix", named after the Phoenician palm trees.

+++

The romance of the Phoenicians' earliest days, of their migrations and settlements through western Asia, are even dimmer to our vision than those of the early Babylonians and Hebrews. They have not, like the Hebrews, left us their own written record of their past; nor have we, as with the Babylonians, discovered long inscriptions and extensive libraries amid the remnants of their ancient cities. Hence we know of the Phoenicians chiefly from their enemies, from what was said of them in the writings of later Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans. Even the name by which we call them is not their own. It was the Greeks who first spoke of the beautiful semi-tropical territory as "Phoenicia," which means the land of palms.

This lovely "land of palms," Phoenicia, lies along the middle of the Mediterranean's eastern shore.

http://www.publicboo...oenicia_jf.html

HISTORY OF PHOENICIA

by George Rawlinson / 1889

Phoenicé, or Phoenicia, was the name originally given by the Greeks—and afterwards adopted from them by the Romans—to the coast region of the Mediterranean, where it faces the west between the thirty-second and the thirty-sixth parallels. Here, it would seem, in their early voyagings, the Pre-Homeric Greeks first came upon a land where the palm-tree was not only indigenous, but formed a leading and striking characteristic, everywhere along the low sandy shore lifting its tuft of feathery leaves into the bright blue sky, high above the undergrowth of fig, and pomegranate, and alive. Hence they called the tract Phoenicia, or "the Land of Palms;" and the people who inhabited it the Phoenicians, or "the Palm-tree people."

The term was from the first applied with a good deal of vagueness. It was probably originally given to the region opposite Cyprus, from Gabala in the north—now Jebili—to Antaradus (Tortosa) and Marathus (Amrith) towards the south, where the palm-tree was first seen growing in rich abundance. The palm is the numismatic emblem of Aradus,11 and though not now very frequent in the region which Strabo calls "the Aradian coast-tract,"12 must anciently have been among its chief ornaments. As the Grecian knowledge of the coast extended southward, and a richer and still richer growth of the palm was continually noticed, almost every town and every village being embosomed in a circle of palm groves, the name extended itself until it reached as far south at any rate as Gaza, or (according to some) as Rhinocolura and the Torrens Ægypti. Northward the name seems never to have passed beyond Cape Posideium (Possidi) at the foot of Mount Casius, the tract between this and the range of Taurus being always known as Syria, never as Phoenecia or Phoenicé.

(...)

There are some grounds for considering Sidon to have been the most ancient of the Phoenician towns. In the Book of Genesis Sidon is called "the eldest born of Canaan,"44 and in Joshua, where Tyre is simply a "fenced city" or fort,45 it is "Great Zidon."46 Homer frequently mentions it,47 whereas he takes no notice of Tyre. Justin makes it the first town which the Phoenicians built on arriving at the shores of the Mediterranean.48 The priority of Sidon in this respect was, however, not universally acknowledged, since Tyre claims on some of her coins to have been "the mother-city of the Sidonians,"49

http://www.gutenberg...31-h/2331-h.htm

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, dna may be later but nevertheless Etruscans show it.

Is it even possible to distinguish between a genetic link dating from let's say 1800 BCE and one from 600 BCE?

I have not the faintest idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did say that it was called Phonisia in the OLB early, but they were not called Phonisar then, only Thyriers.

Palmland is Phoenicia. territory as "Phoenicia," which means the land of palms.

I really don't think Palmyra has anything to do with anything.

If the term Phoenicia means land of the palms, its hard to understand how it also mean blood red through the word phoinos.

Greek Phoinikes, people of the red - might even be a different word to Phoenicia or Phoenicia means land of the red (people) not land of palms in an etymological sense.

Phoenix appears to have nothing to do with red colour.

The name Phoenicians, like Latin Poenī (adj. poenicus, later pūnicus), comes from Greek Φοίνικες (Phoínikes), attested since Homer and influenced by phoînix "Tyrian purple, crimson; murex" (itself from phoinós "blood red").[9] The word stems from Mycenaean po-ni-ki-jo, po-ni-ki, ultimately borrowed from Ancient Egyptian fnḥw (fenkhu)[10] "Asiatics, Semites". The folk-etymological association of phoiniki with phoînix mirrors that in Akkadian which tied kinaḫni, kinaḫḫi "Canaan; Phoenicia" to kinaḫḫu "red-dyed wool".[11][12] Note that there is no connection to the superficially similar phoenix, though this term is also ultimately from Ancient Egyptian, via Greek and Latin (hence the "ph" and "oe").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

Edited by The Puzzler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How interesting that palm is a word from root PEL ie; Pelasgians, were Pelasgians in fact an early Phoenician, which sounds plausible to me.

Latin palma "palm of the hand," also "flat end of an oar; palm tree," from PIE *pel- "to spread out; flat"

http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=palm

Not flatlanders or such but palm landers. Pelasgians sailed and were in Greece at the time of the Trojan War.

Pelasgians might be palm landers, who once they started their dye trade became known as reds, Phoinikes, in Greek, which spread out as Phoenicians.

Palms are not in Nth Europe, they might use the word fan. Or FON.

If the OLB has been copied through the ages words might also have been updated is another option of why later names are used.

Edited by The Puzzler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

-1- I did say that it was called Phonisia in the OLB early, but they were not called Phonisar then, only Thyriers.

-2- Palmland is Phoenicia. territory as "Phoenicia," which means the land of palms.

I really don't think Palmyra has anything to do with anything.

-3-If the term Phoenicia means land of the palms, its hard to understand how it also mean blood red through the word phoinos.

-4-Greek Phoinikes, people of the red - might even be a different word to Phoenicia or Phoenicia means land of the red (people) not land of palms in an etymological sense.

-5- Phoenix appears to have nothing to do with red colour.

The name Phoenicians, like Latin Poenī (adj. poenicus, later pūnicus), comes from Greek Φοίνικες (Phoínikes), attested since Homer and influenced by phoînix "Tyrian purple, crimson; murex" (itself from phoinós "blood red").[9] The word stems from Mycenaean po-ni-ki-jo, po-ni-ki, ultimately borrowed from Ancient Egyptian fnḥw (fenkhu)[10] "Asiatics, Semites". The folk-etymological association of phoiniki with phoînix mirrors that in Akkadian which tied kinaḫni, kinaḫḫi "Canaan; Phoenicia" to kinaḫḫu "red-dyed wool".[11][12] Note that there is no connection to the superficially similar phoenix, though this term is also ultimately from Ancient Egyptian, via Greek and Latin (hence the "ph" and "oe").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

-1- But you suggested that they were first called only Thyrians, and later on Phoenicians. That is not true. In fact it is nothing but Thyrians and their land is called Phoenicia.

-2- Palmyra has been explained as a 'city of palm trees'. And for an obvious reason: it's the Romans who gave it its Latin name, and "palm" is Latin for 'palm of the hand', a way to explain the shape of the leaves of the date palm.

-3- Phonisia only means 'Palmland' in the OLB. Most probably based on point -2-

-4- OK, so here you contradict yourself:"Land of the Red (People)", not Palm Land.

-5- Phoenix is just one way of spelling it, and the bird is always depicted in reds and purples, 'hot' colors, because it is engulfed in flames.

Maybe Wiki says there is no connection, but for me there obvious is.

And as you see, Phoinix (Homer) has to do with crimson, red, blood red.

Then the older Mycenean and Egyptian etymology, and you can forget about Phoenicia meaning "Palmland".

But I will check that Wiki page.

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How interesting that palm is a word from root PEL ie; Pelasgians, were Pelasgians in fact an early Phoenician, which sounds plausible to me.

Latin palma "palm of the hand," also "flat end of an oar; palm tree," from PIE *pel- "to spread out; flat"

http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=palm

Not flatlanders or such but palm landers. Pelasgians sailed and were in Greece at the time of the Trojan War.

Pelasgians might be palm landers, who once they started their dye trade became known as reds, Phoinikes, in Greek, which spread out as Phoenicians.

Palms are not in Nth Europe, they might use the word fan. Or FON.

If the OLB has been copied through the ages words might also have been updated is another option of why later names are used.

The PIE "pel" means flat, because the palm of your hand is flat when outstretched. We have a saying here, "slaan met de vlakke hand", meaning "to hit with an open hand", or literally "to hit with a flat hand", ie: the palm of your hand.

And it is suggested that the name of the Pelasgians hinted at an outstretched, calm sea, not so much 'low land'.

And as you yourself posted, the older Mycenean and Egyptian forms of the name Phoenicia mean "Asiatic, Semitie" :

The word stems from Mycenaean po-ni-ki-jo, po-ni-ki, ultimately borrowed from Ancient Egyptian fnḥw (fenkhu)[10] "Asiatics, Semites"

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it even possible to distinguish between a genetic link dating from let's say 1800 BCE and one from 600 BCE?

I have not the faintest idea.

Not sure what you mean.

If they dug up a skeleton from a tomb they knew was dated 1800BC and it had the same dna (J2 for example) as one they dug out of a tomb dated 600BC, it would have a solid genetic link as far as I know. Then they narrow it down more to precise dna groups as shown in the Etruscan article below.

The Etruscan samples are interesting and I'd like to know more if they have done work on the burials mentioned at the end of the story - cormac?

But as it stands they only 'know' Etruscans came from Anatolia because of a genetic link dating back stuff all but appearing to represent an ancestral line of Tuscans and same gene is found in Turkey. Then they apparently get a date of 3500 years ago for most common ancestor, but that is an estimate from variant changes. (again as far as I know).

Piazza and his colleagues studied the Y chromosome from males who had been living in selected areas of Tuscany between the Arno and Tiber rivers, notably Murlo, Volterra and Casentino, where the Etruscans were known to have concentrated. The men's families had been living in the region for at least three generations and their surnames were Etruscan in origin.

The team compared the men's DNA sequences with those from men in modern Turkey, northern Italy, the Greek island of Lemnos, the Italian islands of Sicily and Sardinia and the southern Balkans.

They found that the genetic sequences of the Tuscan men varied significantly from those of men in surrounding regions in Italy, and were most closely related to those of men from Turkey. "In Murlo particularly, one genetic variant is shared only by people from Turkey," Piazza said.

Conventional genetic analysis indicated that the most recent common ancestors for the Turkish and Tuscan men lived about 3,500 years ago, Piazza said. That, in turn, would suggest that the Lydians were the forefathers of the Villanovan culture, so-named because the first remains of the early Iron Age culture were found at Villanova near Bologna.

Piazza said the team would now expand the analysis to include other men from Tuscany, and would also look at DNA from excavated Etruscan burials.

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jun/18/science/sci-etruscans18

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 11

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.