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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

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Ah yes, they analyzed bones, of course, lol.

I was thinking about modern populations.

I need some coffee and a good movie.

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-1- But you suggested that they were first called only Thyrians, and later on Phoenicians. That is not true. In fact it is nothing but Thyrians and their land is called Phoenicia.

-2- Palmyra has been explained as a 'city of palm trees'. And for an obvious reason: it's the Romans who gave it its Latin name, and "palm" is Latin for 'palm of the hand', a way to explain the shape of the leaves of the date palm.

-3- Phonisia only means 'Palmland' in the OLB. Most probably based on point -2-

-4- OK, so here you contradict yourself:"Land of the Red (People)", not Palm Land.

-5- Phoenix is just one way of spelling it, and the bird is always depicted in reds and purples, 'hot' colors, because it is engulfed in flames.

Maybe Wiki says there is no connection, but for me there obvious is.

And as you see, Phoinix (Homer) has to do with crimson, red, blood red.

Then the older Mycenean and Egyptian etymology, and you can forget about Phoenicia meaning "Palmland".

But I will check that Wiki page.

.

-1- You said this:

Of course it is possible that seafaring people from ancient Canaan arrived in Massilia at that time, but it's not very likely they were called Phoenicians ("Fonesar" or something similar in the OLB).

So I was saying they weren't called Fonesar at the time they arrived in Massilia. The coast where Tyre is IS called Phonisia though.

I answered with:

Early on they are just called Thyriers or mentions of the Sidon Gola/Golan.

The area is called Phonisia at that time though, that is Palmland.

-2- Yes but I do not associate Palmland Phoenicia with Palmyra nor do I think the OLB is.

-4- I don't think I'm contradicting myself. I am showing that Palm Land is not etymologically connected to Phoenicia but that the Fryans in calling it Palm Land could also be able to call it Phonisia based on a term meaning palm, that is FAN. Meaning the term may be a Fryan one, not a later Greek one as used in the OLB.

The Greek term came from Egyptian meaning red, crimson and the term in the OLB used by Fryans could relate to the word palm via fan.

Like alligator and many examples in the OLB its just another one - is it Fryan or Greek/Latin etc. There always seems to be etymology for both when you look hard enough.

-5- Phoenix from Egyptian could equate to its large tail, a fan. In fact when you fan the flames, they get redder, hotter. Just that WIki etymology says: Note that there is no connection to the superficially similar phoenix,

Edited by The Puzzler

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OK, the Fryans don't use PH - so Phonisia has to be a foreign word as thats how its spelt in the OLB. (Not that Ive checked the original but the TRANSLITERATION has Phonisar).

You threw me off with FONESAR - where did you see that F? lol

I just try all angles then cross them off one at a time. I'm not afraid to be wrong or seemingly contradicting myself, I want the truth. Only investigating each little point thoroughly will give me the answers.

Therefore, it has to be the Greek version of the word or someone who used it prior to Greeks. Agreeing with you now.

If this wasn't written down until 600BC, the recent word of that time would be used anyway I'd say.

The timeframe of the action might be disputable but the name could be a loophole from being written down in 600BC.

Even if it was copied from earlier sources inscribed on burgh walls.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Lets say that event was inscribed on the burgh wall around 1700BC. It might say Palm Land coast, which might even be why those bits are added, to explain an earlier meaning which they have not used anymore when copying it.

By the time its being copied for the benefit of future generations, they have used words contemporary to the time in telling the story. I don't mean around 800AD, I mean initially, when Adela wrote it, 600BC.

The below does give indications it was written c. 1200BC on the burgh wall. It also co-incides with an event at that time we know of as Trojan War time and Ulysses so it does appear correctly in the chronology so it's not like Adela has guessed, the time frame must have been written on the burgh wall too - the title is Adelas but the timeframes are right. It's whether Adela has used words contemporary to her 600BC when copying it. Just like the English translation has done. Italians has been substituted for Krekalanders.

IN THE YEAR ONE THOUSAND AND FIVE AFTER ATLAND WAS SUBMERGED, THIS WAS INSCRIBED ON THE EASTERN WALL OF FRYASBURGT.

After twelve years had elapsed without our seeing any Italians in Almanland, there came three ships, finer than any that we possessed or had ever seen.

Edited by The Puzzler

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I am just about to read the "epic of Baal" which you posted Abe ............. can you please tell me that it is not a known fake this time before i waste my time .

i think it was Puzzler who posted a while ago about Aristotle mentioning that he thought the earliest origins of the jews came out of India , i think that they possibly did after maybe . the Kurukshetra war , and settled in many lands . the first Brahmen are supposed to have been ejected , probably taking their religion with them , together with their equine/ aristocratic class . these Brahmen who used to keep their secrets to themselves , and sell their secrets/prayers/rites to the elites were then established above the Elite aristocrats in various places , and in a later war of two massive religions the religion of the Brahmen (Abraham ) won out............and as is normal the victors got to re-write history .

The people of India forgot their Mahabarata history , because the common people won the war which ejected the priests and the elite , because it is known that the common people were not allowed to take part in religion, and the Brahmen took all that knowledge to Mesopotamia/syria/assyria and other places ..and it was only when the persians re-invaded India that they took back and explained to the Indians what all the old writings and old philosophy in the books that had been left actually meant ..........i think there is no trace of a re-conquering of the Arians , is because it is the old Indian Genes that left with the Brahman class that re-entered India , and therefore the Genes were the same , so there is no trace of it . i still like to think Mary of Magdala may have been Mary of Maghada

The people of the 1st exodus were of a religion that believed in Crishna as their Christ , but much earlier than the Christian Christ . Although there was a common origin of the two religions , because the two groups were so far apart , and over a long period of time the two religions evolved different beliefs and those from Sidon.....SDN...STN .....who eventually were the losers had there version of the religion vilified , and they were the ones portrayed to believe in SaToN , SeiTon and the D'Evil (The evil one) .

The winners who presumably sided with possibly the Achaeans/Greeks or Romans were then in a position to re-write history .......they did not want to admit that the God was named Crishna , and came from India so the Brahman becomes Abraham , and Saras-vati becomes Sarai , and Chrishna becomes Jesus the Christ, born in year (1 AD, although this has changed over the years ) to hide the origins .

I think the Arrian Heresy was not a heresy started by a man named Arrian........but was a remembered history that the original Chrishna was an Arian from India from much earlier .

The reason the Armenians , the Bulgars etc were persecuted was because maybe they remembered this , because Canaan was not originally near Israel but was in their territory, and they were probably the decendants. .........The reason the original Britts were up for persecution could be because they were originally Vlachs who were the Vlash, the Wlash , the Welsh...........along with other fleeing nationals like the Albans (Albanians )...........

Cant prove any of this ,so please remember its just my gut feelings.. just thought i would put down some of my thoughts so you know where i am coming from ! and i state now this is just my overall impression of events from my lifetimes reading so far ....... no doubt much of it i have understood wrongly, the Chronology of it i find very difficult........but Hey-Ho .why not stand up and be counted ( or even laughed at ) now and again , i am sure i can take it . and every new book i read i am sure will either add or detract from my current impressions and opinions .

Edited by NO-ID-EA

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Adelas followers wrote the book I should say.

So they would have used contemporary language and name places imo.

They have done this:

Teuntia, the Burgtmaagd of Medeasblik, who is not a candidate, is a person of knowledge and sound sense, and quite as attached to our people and our customs as all the rest together. I should farther recommend that you should visit all the citadels, and write down all the laws of Frya’s Tex, as well as all the histories, and all that is written on the walls, in order that it may not be destroyed with the citadels.

Unless they changed some timeframes themself...

Edited by The Puzzler

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Always good to get it off your chest NO-ID-EA.

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A few things (I know it's late or you, lol):

You said that the Fryans didn't have a -PH- and so Phonisar must be a foreign word.

But the OLB doesn't use -PH- in Phoniser, but an -F- : Foniser.

The -PH- must have crept in by mistake.

post-18246-0-11943800-1358867843_thumb.g

+++

Herodotus goes on to record that the Bennu bird came from Arabia every 500 years carrying his father's body embalmed in an egg of myrrh. This Arabian bird however was said to resemble an eagle with brilliant gold and red plumage. Before the phoenix died it built a nest of incense twigs and laid down in it and died. From its body a small worm emerged that the sun's heat transformed into the new phoenix.

http://www.egyptianmyths.net/phoenix.htm

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A few things (I know it's late or you, lol):

You said that the Fryans didn't have a -PH- and so Phonisar must be a foreign word.

But the OLB doesn't use -PH- in Phoniser, but an -F- : Foniser.

The -PH- must have crept in by mistake.

post-18246-0-11943800-1358867843_thumb.g

+++

Herodotus goes on to record that the Bennu bird came from Arabia every 500 years carrying his father's body embalmed in an egg of myrrh. This Arabian bird however was said to resemble an eagle with brilliant gold and red plumage. Before the phoenix died it built a nest of incense twigs and laid down in it and died. From its body a small worm emerged that the sun's heat transformed into the new phoenix.

http://www.egyptianm...net/phoenix.htm

That's what I wondered, if there an F in the original. If so, my translation stands then. However it seems more likely that the term is not Fryan but used to describe the place in contemporary language of when that writing was written.

I hadn't checked the original but noticed the PH in the transliteration and English translation.

Was thêr hwa fon vs folk thêret alsa aerg vrbrud hêde, that sin lif in frêse kêm, than lênadon tha gola him hul aend foradon him nêi Phonisia, that is palmland.

----------------------------

Tricky one the Phoenix...

The modern English noun phoenix derives from Middle English fenix (before 1150), itself from Old English fēnix (around 750). Old English fēnix was borrowed from Medieval Latin phenix and, later, from Latin phoenīx, deriving from Greek φοίνιξ phóinīx.[2]

During the Classic period, the name of the bird, φοίνιξ, was variously associated with the color purple, 'Phoenician', and the date palm.[3] According to an etymology offered by the 6th and 7th century archbishop Isidore of Seville, the name of the phoenix derived from its purple-red hue, an explanation that has been influential. This association continued into the medieval period, albeit in a different fashion; the bird was considered "the royal bird" and therefore also referred to as "the purple one".[3]

With the deciphering of the Linear B script in the 20th century, however, the ancestor of Greek φοίνιξ was confirmed in Mycenaean Greek po-ni-ke, itself open to a variety of interpretations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(mythology)

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That's what I wondered, if there an F in the original. If so, my translation stands then. However it seems more likely that the term is not Fryan but used to describe the place in contemporary language of when that writing was written.

I hadn't checked the original but noticed the PH in the transliteration and English translation.

Was thêr hwa fon vs folk thêret alsa aerg vrbrud hêde, that sin lif in frêse kêm, than lênadon tha gola him hul aend foradon him nêi Phonisia, that is palmland.

----------------------------

Tricky one the Phoenix...

The modern English noun phoenix derives from Middle English fenix (before 1150), itself from Old English fēnix (around 750). Old English fēnix was borrowed from Medieval Latin phenix and, later, from Latin phoenīx, deriving from Greek φοίνιξ phóinīx.[2]

During the Classic period, the name of the bird, φοίνιξ, was variously associated with the color purple, 'Phoenician', and the date palm.[3] According to an etymology offered by the 6th and 7th century archbishop Isidore of Seville, the name of the phoenix derived from its purple-red hue, an explanation that has been influential. This association continued into the medieval period, albeit in a different fashion; the bird was considered "the royal bird" and therefore also referred to as "the purple one".[3]

With the deciphering of the Linear B script in the 20th century, however, the ancestor of Greek φοίνιξ was confirmed in Mycenaean Greek po-ni-ke, itself open to a variety of interpretations

http://en.wikipedia....enix_(mythology)

Yes, you are right, I just checked the original: the OLB does indeed use the -PH- .

So the OLB uses a foreign word that maybe not even existed at the time the OLB was first put down on paper.

And it translates it as Palmland.

And that is wrong. When the OLB introduces a word or name, it says XXX - THAT IS - ZZZ, which every time is a translation or an etymology.

Example:

WE NOW COME TO THE HISTORY OF JON.

Jon, Jôn, Jhon, Jan, are all the same name, though the pronunciation varies, as the seamen like to shorten everything to be able to make it easier to call. Jon—that is, “Given”—was a sea-king,

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I am just about to read the "epic of Baal" which you posted Abe ............. can you please tell me that it is not a known fake this time before i waste my time .

It's not fake anything, it's a study about the mythology and religion of the Canaanites.

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po-ni-ke

If you look at Linear B, the po is a seat, the ni is a palm tree - hence the association with a palm tree?? ke is hard to know what the symbol is, another double palm type thing.

And the phoenix or ponike was a bird that was associated with the palm tree. The ni is a definite palm tree. With po as a seat, you get 'sitting - palmtree - '. I recall an Abba song called Sitting In A Palm Tree lol.

Which reminds me of this picture...a bird in a tree. A phoenix in a palm tree? The tree seems to be the double axe.

5018807888_ea3d542c2b_z.jpg

All a bit off track but imo interesting none the less.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Yes, you are right, I just checked the original: the OLB does indeed use the -PH- .

So the OLB uses a foreign word that maybe not even existed at the time the OLB was first put down on paper.

And it translates it as Palmland.

And that is wrong. When the OLB introduces a word or name, it says XXX - THAT IS - ZZZ, which every time is a translation or an etymology.

Example:

WE NOW COME TO THE HISTORY OF JON.

Jon, Jôn, Jhon, Jan, are all the same name, though the pronunciation varies, as the seamen like to shorten everything to be able to make it easier to call. Jon—that is, “Given”—was a sea-king,

.

yes, thats why Im trying to get Phonisia from Palmland.

But its not working because its a foreign word I'd say.

I'd think fan could work but fon is not fan in any way I can see in Frisian - its just 'of.

And you've now pointed out that the original does use PH.

Still, in this case it could be a case of telling us the foreign name compared to the Fryan name for it even though it is not an etymology change.

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po-ni-ke

If you look at Linear B, the po is a seat, the ni is a palm tree - hence the association with a palm tree. ke is hard to know what the symbol is, another double palm type thing.

And the phoenix or ponike was a bird that was associated with the palm tree. The ni is a definite palm tree. With po as a seat, you get 'sitting - palmtree - '. I recall an Abba song called Sitting In A Palm Tree lol.

Whch reminds me of this picture...a bird in a tree. A phoenix in a palm tree? The tree seems to be the double axe.

5018807888_ea3d542c2b_z.jpg

All a bit off track but imo interesting none the less.

This is what you posted:

The word stems from Mycenaean po-ni-ki-jo, po-ni-ki, ultimately borrowed from Ancient Egyptian fnḥw (fenkhu) "Asiatics, Semites".

And the 'trees' are indeed ceremonial double axes: they have found huge ones on Crete.

And damn, now I have to check Linear B again, lol.

Btw, you have no idea what "PO" stands for in Dutch.... but it's some sort of a seat alright.

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yes, thats why Im trying to get Phonisia from Palmland.

But its not working because its a foreign word I'd say.

I'd think fan could work but fon is not fan in any way I can see in Frisian - its just 'of.

And you've now pointed out that the original does use PH.

Still, in this case it could be a case of telling us the foreign name compared to the Fryan name for it even though it is not an etymology change.

And that's why I am saying that to translate Phonisia they used the name for an important part of that country, the part or city (it was also an area in later times) that the Romans named "Palmyra".

Palmland could be a translation/etymology for Palmyra as some suggested, but Palmland could only be an interpretation for Phonisia.

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The word Phonisia and variants may have existed when first put to paper but not when first written on the burgh walls imo.

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This is what you posted:

The word stems from Mycenaean po-ni-ki-jo, po-ni-ki, ultimately borrowed from Ancient Egyptian fnḥw (fenkhu) "Asiatics, Semites".

And the 'trees' are indeed ceremonial double axes: they have found huge ones on Crete.

And damn, now I have to check Linear B again, lol.

Btw, you have no idea what "PO" stands for in Dutch.... but it's some sort of a seat alright.

The word you just posted was Phoenicia - I am on Phoenix :

the ancestor of Greek φοίνιξ was confirmed in Mycenaean Greek po-ni-ke, itself open to a variety of interpretations

ponike is phoenix

I do know about the double axes. Point being they are also looking very much like trees with birds on them, and with the name Phoenix relating to palm trees and the word having a palm tree in it - the axes or phoenix could actually represent a Palm tree.

Insignificant maybe.

Edited by The Puzzler

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And that's why I am saying that to translate Phonisia they used the name for an important part of that country, the part or city (it was also an area in later times) that the Romans named "Palmyra".

Palmland could be a translation/etymology for Palmyra as some suggested, but Palmland could only be an interpretation for Phonisia.

It must only be an interpretation then because Palm Land is Phonisia but I get your drift.

--------------------

And actually ki now I look more at it - a double palm tree type thing - I see it looks like the 2 double axes (representing palms) with the jug between it just like in the picture I showed.

Edited by The Puzzler

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OK, so either the girls who wrote Adelas Book changed some dates or the Sidon priests landed in Marseille c. 1700BC.

Was it originally recorded chronologically wrong by the writers of the book, in some parts, in an attempt back then to make it appear older I wonder.

And I can only conclude that Phonisia has been used at that time and is a foreign word they used to correspond to what they knew as Palm Land and did not appear as Phonisia in the original writings on the burgh wall.

Edited by The Puzzler

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The word you just posted was Phoenicia - I am on Phoenix :

the ancestor of Greek φοίνιξ was confirmed in Mycenaean Greek po-ni-ke, itself open to a variety of interpretations

ponike is phoenix

I do know about the double axes. Point being they are also looking very much like trees with birds on them, and with the name Phoenix relating to palm trees and the word having a palm tree in it - the axes or phoenix could actually represent a Palm tree.

Insignificant maybe.

These are these huge axes:

labrys2.jpg

I doubt they symbolized trees.

And the bird could be another symbolic animal. You'd think that if it was the Phoenix, you'd see some flames too

--

So po-ni-ki = Phoenician (or better: Asians/Semites)and po-ni-ke = the Fenix? That's too close for comfort, right?

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OK, so either the girls who wrote Adelas Book changed some dates or the Sidon priests landed in Marseille c. 1700BC.

Was it originally recorded chronologically wrong by the writers of the book, in some parts, in an attempt back then to make it appear older I wonder.

And I can only conclude that Phonisia has been used at that time and is a foreign word they used to correspond to what they knew as Palm Land.

One thing is clear: Kalta went to the Gola in Massilia (walked on water, sailed with them to Kadik/Cadiz and so on), so they were already there. Maybe they had settled just before the war between Min-erva and Kalta. But then you still have a date earlier than 1630 BCE.

And when was the first mention of PO-NI-KI on Crete? Or that Egyptian word, FENKHU?

.

Edited by Abramelin

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The Phoenicians and the West: Politics, Colonies and Trade

By Maria Eugenia Aubet

Look here what it says about that Egyptian word (page 9):

http://books.google.nl/books?id=B7SLWT2vpNcC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=PO-NI-KI++phoenician&source=bl&ots=wVW79jnm6V&sig=9cd_IOox0rWABX_bztlwCCXuIoM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YML-UPKxG4uY0QWNhIDgDA&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=egyptian&f=false

And you can also read about the Mycenean word.

It apparently isn't as clear-cut as Wiki suggests.

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One thing is clear: Kalta went to the Gola in Massilia (walked on water, sailed with them to Kadik/Cadiz and so on), so they were already there. Maybe they had settled just before the war between Min-erva and Kalta. But then you still have a date earlier than 1630 BCE.

And when was the first mention of PO-NI-KI on Crete? Or that Egyptian word, FENKHU?

.

I have no idea. You might find something to follow up in both links.

With the deciphering of the Linear B script in the 20th century, however, the ancestor of Greek φοίνιξ was confirmed in Mycenaean Greek po-ni-ke, itself open to a variety of interpretations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(mythology)

The word stems from Mycenaean po-ni-ki-jo, po-ni-ki, ultimately borrowed from Ancient Egyptian fnḥw (fenkhu)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

1630BC is it, ok.

You convinced me that they are already there when she gets there, so yes.

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I have no idea. You might find something to follow up in both links.

With the deciphering of the Linear B script in the 20th century, however, the ancestor of Greek φοίνιξ was confirmed in Mycenaean Greek po-ni-ke, itself open to a variety of interpretations

http://en.wikipedia....enix_(mythology)

The word stems from Mycenaean po-ni-ki-jo, po-ni-ki, ultimately borrowed from Ancient Egyptian fnḥw (fenkhu)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

1630BC is it, ok.

You convinced me that they are already there when she gets there, so yes.

I did check the reference, and it's a book in French.....sigh.

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The Phoenicians and the West: Politics, Colonies and Trade

By Maria Eugenia Aubet

Look here what it says about that Egyptian word (page 9):

http://books.google....gyptian&f=false

And you can also read about the Mycenean word.

It apparently isn't as clear-cut as Wiki suggests.

Yeah I see.

Aromatic herb? :unsure2:

OK, well I better go to bed and sleep on it. Goodnight.

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