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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

6,100 posts in this topic

po-ni-ke

If you look at Linear B, the po is a seat, the ni is a palm tree - hence the association with a palm tree?? ke is hard to know what the symbol is, another double palm type thing.

And the phoenix or ponike was a bird that was associated with the palm tree. The ni is a definite palm tree. With po as a seat, you get 'sitting - palmtree - '. I recall an Abba song called Sitting In A Palm Tree lol.

Which reminds me of this picture...a bird in a tree. A phoenix in a palm tree? The tree seems to be the double axe.

5018807888_ea3d542c2b_z.jpg

All a bit off track but imo interesting none the less.

Maybe I can give a clue to the riddle of the relationship between phoenix, the palm-tree and Phoenicia.

The reason why the Carthaginians depicted the date palm-tree on their coins, was to give foreign merchants a way of discerning that the coin was Phoenician. The palm-tree was simply used as a logogram, or you can say a pun, to indicate the word Phoenicia - probably because the purple dye wasn't easily depictable. It seems like they also did use the Phoenix in the same way on their coins.

Where I learnt this, was probably in Barry Fell's book Saga America. I have the book at home, but as I'm staying in Manila till May, I'm not able to find the page number, or quote from it, now.

But you can get another little clue from another book (line 20):

http://books.google.no/books?id=3qXuay2SEtIC&pg=PA507&lpg=PA507&dq=%22carthaginian+coin%22+phoenix&source=bl&ots=Tx-ebltl7T&sig=kVoS-GdD3IF9Tq0Lb6iOKcB-lRY&hl=no&sa=X&ei=NBsFUeb4N8WXiAfUooCoCg&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22carthaginian%20coin%22%20phoenix&f=false

It's not strange, then, that the Frisian seamen thought that: PHONISIA. DÄT IS PALM.LAND (61/15).

Seemingly, the ancient Frisians had problems with the ph when writing:

They write variously like this:

PHONISIA, PHONISJA, PHONISIUS, PHONISI, FHONÍSJA, FONÍSJAR, FHONISJAR, PHONISJAR, PHONISIAR - and even: FPHONÍSJAR! (200/13).

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Maybe I can give a clue to the riddle of the relationship between phoenix, the palm-tree and Phoenicia.

The reason why the Carthaginians depicted the date palm-tree on their coins, was to give foreign merchants a way of discerning that the coin was Phoenician. The palm-tree was simply used as a logogram, or you can say a pun, to indicate the word Phoenicia - probably because the purple dye wasn't easily depictable. It seems like they also did use the Phoenix in the same way on their coins.

Where I learnt this, was probably in Barry Fell's book Saga America. I have the book at home, but as I'm staying in Manila till May, I'm not able to find the page number, or quote from it, now.

But you can get another little clue from another book (line 20):

http://books.google....phoenix&f=false

It's not strange, then, that the Frisian seamen thought that: PHONISIA. DÄT IS PALM.LAND (61/15).

Seemingly, the ancient Frisians had problems with the ph when writing:

They write variously like this:

PHONISIA, PHONISJA, PHONISIUS, PHONISI, FHONÍSJA, FONÍSJAR, FHONISJAR, PHONISJAR, PHONISIAR - and even: FPHONÍSJAR! (200/13).

post-18246-0-22345300-1359293107_thumb.j

But it could only be a pun, if PHOEN&&& meant PALM, and the jury is still not out concerning that one.

And when came the first Phoenican coins in circulation?

Phoenician merchants practised barter for a very long time and surprisingly, were not among the first to adopt the metal currency. It will only break through when Darius I reorganizes its empire, and integrates Phoenicia in the fifth satrapy which includes Syria, Palestine and Cyprus, about 480 B.C.

Each city then minted its own silver and later bronze coins, at the effigy of the ruler, the protective god, or local patterns or symbols, like ships and cedars.

You may find coins from Sidon, Tyre, Byblos but also from Arados (Arwad) and Kition, Marathos, Berytos, Tripolis, etc.

http://sites-archeologiques.perso.sfr.fr/cartes-gb/phenicie-monnaie.html

And this is what it says about your coin:

Carthage, ca. 410-380 B.C.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Apol, you as a Norwegian: how is your command of the German language?

In case you didn't know, the Altfriesisches Wörterbuch by Karl Otto Johannes Theresius Richthofen [Freiherr von] offers a LOT of info about the Old Frisian language :

http://archive.org/d...chesw00richuoft

And both Puzz and I use this German site:

http://koeblergerhar...rieswbhinw.html

And click on one of the letters of the alphabet.

Btw, this is my blog about the OLB with several links in the sidebar at the right:

http://oeralinda.blogspot.nl/

And this is Otharus' blog about the OLB:

http://fryskednis.blogspot.nl/

.

I'm quite into German, we learn it in school, and I know Richthoven's and Köbler's Old Frisian dictionaries - Wiarda's, Kiliaan's and Hettema's as well. I also have another Old Frisian dictionary at home.

I knew about Otharus' FRYSKEDNIS - now I also found his Twitter site, which inspired me to make my own Twitter site.

But I didn't know your blog from before, so thank you - I will follow it.

Regarding the word BRIT - I found this in Hettema's Idioticon Frisicum:

Page 115:

Brit, A.3,6. zie: breia.

Page 113:

Breid, breyde, sponsa, bruid. O.1.10. H.4,39. F.O.L.4,6.

Breia, projicere, uitwerpen. B.106: And breit hiu inur dura and invr dreppel. En werpt haar buiten de deur en over den drempel.

http://ia600301.us.archive.org/20/items/idioticonfrisic00hettgoog/idioticonfrisic00hettgoog.pdf

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This is the Old Frisian dictionary I have at home. It's Old Frisian-English:

Dirk Boutkan og Sjoerd Michiel Siebinga: Old Frisian Etymological Dictionary

(Koninklijke Brill NV, Leiden, 2005; ISSN: 1574-3586, ISBN: 9004145311)

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This is the Old Frisian dictionary I have at home. It's Old Frisian-English:

Dirk Boutkan og Sjoerd Michiel Siebinga: Old Frisian Etymological Dictionary

(Koninklijke Brill NV, Leiden, 2005; ISSN: 1574-3586, ISBN: 9004145311)

You actually HAVE an Old Frisian dictionary, lol. That's even better. But I downloaded several from the internet, and a couple of Old Frisian grammars.

And Dirk Boutkan: didn't he write a book with Rolf Bremmer as co-author about Old Frisian?

Apol, have you never tried to use (Bokmal-) Norse or Old Norse to literally translate the OLB, like I did using Dutch and Old/Middle Dutch(-ish)?

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I'm quite into German, we learn it in school, and I know Richthoven's and Köbler's Old Frisian dictionaries - Wiarda's, Kiliaan's and Hettema's as well. I also have another Old Frisian dictionary at home.

I knew about Otharus' FRYSKEDNIS - now I also found his Twitter site, which inspired me to make my own Twitter site.

But I didn't know your blog from before, so thank you - I will follow it.

Regarding the word BRIT - I found this in Hettema's Idioticon Frisicum:

Page 115:

Brit, A.3,6. zie: breia.

Page 113:

Breid, breyde, sponsa, bruid. O.1.10. H.4,39. F.O.L.4,6.

Breia, projicere, uitwerpen. B.106: And breit hiu inur dura and invr dreppel. En werpt haar buiten de deur en over den drempel.

http://ia600301.us.a...c00hettgoog.pdf

My blog is a bit lifeless now. I need to add some of what I have posted here, just for easy reference. But I am not good at summarizing, hah.

==

Breia, projicere, uitwerpen. That would be 'to expel' or 'to cast out' in English. It all fits the context.

Breid, breyde, sponsa, bruid. I doubt that 'bride' has any relevance here.

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You actually HAVE an Old Frisian dictionary, lol. That's even better. But I downloaded several from the internet, and a couple of Old Frisian grammars.

And Dirk Boutkan: didn't he write a book with Rolf Bremmer as co-author about Old Frisian?

Apol, have you never tried to use (Bokmal-) Norse or Old Norse to literally translate the OLB, like I did using Dutch and Old/Middle Dutch(-ish)?

Yes, I have downloaded the other ones. Regarding Dirk Boutkan as a co-author, it's possibly this one you have in mind:

Rolf H. Bremmer Jr., Thomas S. B. Johnston and Oebele Vries (ed.); Approaches to Old Frisian Philology, in which Dirk Boutkan has a chapter named On Labial Mutation and Breaking in Old Frisian. I found it when browsing a little on the web.

In fact, I have made a translation of The Oera Linda Book into Norwegian - and also into English. I'm using everything I can find. I've used both of the Norwegian written standards - Bokmål, Nynorsk, as well as Old Norwegian.

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post-18246-0-22345300-1359293107_thumb.j

But it could only be a pun, if PHOEN&&& meant PALM, and the jury is still not out concerning that one.

And when came the first Phoenican coins in circulation?

Phoenician merchants practised barter for a very long time and surprisingly, were not among the first to adopt the metal currency. It will only break through when Darius I reorganizes its empire, and integrates Phoenicia in the fifth satrapy which includes Syria, Palestine and Cyprus, about 480 B.C.

Each city then minted its own silver and later bronze coins, at the effigy of the ruler, the protective god, or local patterns or symbols, like ships and cedars.

You may find coins from Sidon, Tyre, Byblos but also from Arados (Arwad) and Kition, Marathos, Berytos, Tripolis, etc.

http://sites-archeol...ie-monnaie.html

And this is what it says about your coin:

Carthage, ca. 410-380 B.C.

.

Yes, it's a great difference in time - and coins were not invented until around 700 BC. I think PHONISIA. ÐÄT IS PALM.LAND is a commentary added in a much later time.

You wrote five days ago: "When the OLB introduces a word or name, it says XXX - THAT IS - ZZZ, which every time is a translation or an etymology." That's an interesting observation. I think these additions may stem from one and the same transcriber of the texts.

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My blog is a bit lifeless now. I need to add some of what I have posted here, just for easy reference. But I am not good at summarizing, hah.

==

Breia, projicere, uitwerpen. That would be 'to expel' or 'to cast out' in English. It all fits the context.

Breid, breyde, sponsa, bruid. I doubt that 'bride' has any relevance here.

Well, it might have been the bride that was thrown "buiten de deur en over den drempel".

Ha ha ha!

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Well, it might have been the bride that was thrown "buiten de deur en over den drempel".

Ha ha ha!

LOL,

And I think your command of Dutch is far better than my command of Norse will ever be!!

But I think an Australian like Puzz can visit the Netherlands on her next holiday and have no problems asking her way around.

After more than 3 years posting in and researching for this thread she's well trained in Dutch (and Frisian), lol.

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breida, breia, bruda, brit imo are all the same etymology.

From the TAKING of a bride, to the breaking of a branch, to pull, jerk, revoke, take way, revoke, abolish, withdraw

All are the same imo and also that Britain is named for a land of abolished people or geologically because it was apart from the continent, as if pulled or jerked apart.

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How about some more outrageous speculation . !..............when traders , kings whatever were trying to bring in money , instead of exchange goods , and barter, you can just imagine the common man thinking it was a great con..........you just gave up your flock and they want to giveyou a round metal ingot in return ............what a bunch of phoenies........or Phoeni-Ks (kings ).. Phoeni-x

where were the first places they minted this Phoeni (phoeny ) money.......Palermo ( fal(s)e-r(are)-Mo(ney) , Selinonte ( Sell-i-Monte(Money) , and Moyte (Money-te)............ha..ha the Palm was the first money tree.LOL

and when it started to catch on circ Darius 1 ........wasnt a coin called a Denarius or Denarii........what was the first coin ? .. how about Ten-Darius.......making Tendar ......or official TENDER

Edited by NO-ID-EA

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Yes, it's a great difference in time - and coins were not invented until around 700 BC. I think PHONISIA. ÐÄT IS PALM.LAND is a commentary added in a much later time.

You wrote five days ago: "When the OLB introduces a word or name, it says XXX - THAT IS - ZZZ, which every time is a translation or an etymology." That's an interesting observation. I think these additions may stem from one and the same transcriber of the texts.

Something else: a translation is of course not necessarily an etymology.

When I translate the word "country" into my language or Norwegian, it becomes "land", or ( "lan" with an accent circonflexe on the -a- in modern Frisian), but the two words are not etymologically related.

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How about some more outrageous speculation . !..............when traders , kings whatever were trying to bring in money , instead of exchange goods , and barter, you can just imagine the common man thinking it was a great con..........you just gave up your flock and they want to giveyou a round metal ingot in return ............what a bunch of phoenies........or Phoeni-Ks (kings ).. Phoeni-x

where were the first places they minted this Phoeni (phoeny ) money.......Palermo ( fal(s)e-r(are)-Mo(ney) , Selinonte ( Sell-i-Monte(Money) , and Moyte (Money-te)............ha..ha the Palm was the first money tree.LOL

and when it started to catch on circ Darius 1 ........wasnt a coin called a Denarius or Denarii........what was the first coin ? .. how about Ten-Darius.......making Tendar ......or official TENDER

You know what an old slang word for money is in the Netherlands? POEN, pronounced like "poon",lol.

And it's probably derived from Jiddish "ponem",or 'face' (the face of the king or queen on a side of the coin).

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I think a good translation for BRIT is 'expelled'. In essence that is what the Romans did with the Phoenicians. They kicked them out from every country, and took over their land,

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I think a good translation for BRIT is 'expelled'. In essence that is what the Romans did with the Phoenicians. They kicked them out from every country, and took over their land,

Expelled is good too I agree.

breud and breida are same root of PULL - this imo is the main meaning of the word, then revoke, you can have many other words off that, take away, pull away, deny, disown, abolish - and if brit is the same, then you could have various meanings for the bruden/britne words...

(Expel is not in this word list of synonyms but I could see it as one)

Revoke:

take back; cancel

Synonyms: abjure, abolish, abrogate, annul, back out of, backpedal, call back, call off, countermand, counterorder, declare null and void, deny, disclaim, dismantle, dismiss, disown, erase, expunge, forswear, invalidate, lift, negate, nix, nullify, obliterate, quash, recall, recant, remove, renounce, repeal, repudiate, rescind, retract, reverse, rub out, scrub, set aside, vacate, void, wipe out, withdraw

http://thesaurus.com/browse/Revoke

breid-a

11, brÆd-a, afries., st. V. (3b): nhd. ziehen, zucken, widerrufen; ne. pull

(V.), jerk (V.), revoke

breu-d

1 und häufiger?, afries., Sb.: nhd. Ziehen; ne. pulling (N.); Vw.: s. âg-e-,

hÐr-, mð-th-, no-s-e-; E.: s. germ. *breuþan, st. V., zerfallen (V.); vgl. idg. *b

her-

(3), V., ritzen, schneiden, spalten, reiben, Pokorny 133; L.: Hh 12b, Rh 670a

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-B.pdf

:

Edited by The Puzzler

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breida, breia, bruda, brit imo are all the same etymology.

From the TAKING of a bride, to the breaking of a branch, to pull, jerk, revoke, take way, revoke, abolish, withdraw

All are the same imo and also that Britain is named for a land of abolished people or geologically because it was apart from the continent, as if pulled or jerked apart.

I would then think it is named from the BRITNE, because people did probably not witness the land being pulled apart from the continent.

Spanuth points to a researcher of Egyptian and Phoenician trade, named L. Quiring (1948, p. 254), who says that the term Britain originates from the Phoenician word for tin, prithan - due to their trade with Cornwall. (Jürgen Spanuth: Die Rückkehr der Herakliden, p. 206).

Another researcher, Lawrence Waddell, in his book The Phoenician Origin of Britons, Scots and Anglo-Saxons (p. 142-167) points to the early British chroniclers, who say that it hails from Brutus of Troy, who came with hundreds of ships to the large island around 1103 BC for colonizing it. Although he probably was a Trojan, he wrote his name B-R-T (BruTuS) in the Hebrew practice of omitting the vowels. From the same B-R-T the name of Britain is said to have been derived.

There is a wealth of different explanations on how the name Britain came into being, though - some more convincing than others:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain_(placename)

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BITWISKA ÐA FÊRUM ÄND HEINDA KRÊKA.LANDUM FAND JON SVMA Ê.LANDA ÐÊR HIM LIKTE. VPPET GRÂTESTE GVNG.ER INNA ÐA WALDA TWISK ÐÄT BERCHTA EN BURCH BVWA.

My translation:

Between the Far and Near Krekalands Jon found some islands that he liked. Upon the largest he went into the wood between the mountains (to) build a burgh.

The largest of the Ionian Islands is named Cephalonia. No one really knows from what the name is derived, but one suggests that it is from the legendary hero Cephalos, who reigned in Phocis in Central Greece and came to the island as a refugee from Athens. Others claim that because 'Cephalos' is derived from the Greek word for 'head', the name means 'an island with a head' - referring to its form.

At one time, when I studied the geography of the Ionian Islands from my world atlas - where all placenames are written in the individual countiries' own languages, I found that the Greek name of the island is Kefallinía (Κεφαλληνία).

Wasn't it a natural gesture of Jon to name the largest of the islands in his new kingdom after the burgh-femme whom he had saved and recently brought to the Mediterranean? It was also just the seamen who had given Minerva that name (62/10-11). As the basis of the designation gradually sank into oblivion, neha- became keha-, because it was easier to pronounce. The first syllable, neha- - an h between two vowels - isn't easily pronounceable for anybody. In people's everyday speech the word was simply deemed to be changed into either 'Nefallennia' or 'Kefallennia'; and in the name Cephalos we find almost an attestation that the Greeks would naturally choose the k instead of the n. Moreover, the Greek η (êta) is pronounced 'ê', like in the English 'hey' - which gives us 'Kefallênía'. In the last instance it is simply the same word as Nehalennia.

Also Raubenheimer makes the hint that there might be "a relation between Cephallenia and Nyhellenia" (p. 140). It doesn't exist one single name another place on the globe which resembles that word more than this one - probably not even other placenames that could have had this name as their base linguistically. I think this also suggests that Nyhellênja was pronounced more like Nehalennia by the ancient Frisians.

Indeed, when the Greeks are writing, they utilize more versions of the name, and the most regularly used one is Kefalonia (Κεφαλονιά) and Kefallonia (Κεφαλλονιά). English speakers usually write Cephalonia - but also Kefalonia, Kefallonia, Cephallonia and Kefallinia.

Homer was the first who used the term Cephalites, and he then alluded to Odysseus' people on several Ionian Islands. This indicates that Jon's people may have regarded Nyhellênja as their spiritual leader.

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I don't think they'd have to witness it to know it was a broken piece that appeared to have been jerked off the continent.

Anyway...let's try Briton, the name of the people...

Briton (n.) dictionary.gif Anglo-French Bretun, from Latin Brittonem (nom. Britto, misspelled Brito in MSS) "a member of the tribe of the Britons," from *Britt-os, the Celtic name of the Celtic inhabitants of Britain and southern Scotland before the 5c. Anglo-Saxon invasion drove them into Wales, Cornwall, and a few other corners. In 4c. B.C.E. Greek they are recorded as Prittanoi, which is said to mean "tattooed people." Exclusively in historical use after Old English period; revived when James I was proclaimed King of Great Britain in 1604, and made official at the union of England and Scotland in 1707. http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

From Britt-os - the Celtic name of the Celtic inhabitants of Britain - Prittanoi - and mean tattooed people.

The Greeks and Phoenicians could have taken this name on and in doing so changed the B sound to a P when they spoke it.

In what way could it mean 'tattooed people' - it could mean it as the context of the OLB gives it - the 'banished' people had letters TATTOOED on their forehead.

The tattooed people of this land therefore imo, could be so named because they were britt-os - brit's - because that name really meant abolished, referring to the tattooed people, who were a banished and abolished people.

Edited by The Puzzler

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How about this old post of mine:

http://www.unexplain...80#entry3627138

Pruteni-Aesti-Tacitus.jpg

According to Tacitus these 'Pruteni' were a people with 'lingua Britannicae propior', or a language close to Britannic.

The Old Prussians or Baltic Prussians (German: Pruzzen or Prußen; Latin: Pruteni; Latvian: Prūši; Lithuanian: Prūsai; Polish: Prusowie) were an ethnic group, autochthonous Baltic tribes that inhabited Prussia, the lands of the southeastern Baltic Sea in the area around the Vistula and Curonian Lagoons. They spoke a language now known as Old Prussian and followed a religion believed by modern scholars to be closely related to Lithuanian paganism with such gods as Perkūns.

http://www.lastfm.pl...maeglin/journal

Were these Pruteni banished too? Or tattooed?

Btw, did you read these Pruteni worshipped a 'divine Mother'?

.

Edited by Abramelin

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BITWISKA ÐA FÊRUM ÄND HEINDA KRÊKA.LANDUM FAND JON SVMA Ê.LANDA ÐÊR HIM LIKTE. VPPET GRÂTESTE GVNG.ER INNA ÐA WALDA TWISK ÐÄT BERCHTA EN BURCH BVWA.

My translation:

Between the Far and Near Krekalands Jon found some islands that he liked. Upon the largest he went into the wood between the mountains (to) build a burgh.

The largest of the Ionian Islands is named Cephalonia. No one really knows from what the name is derived, but one suggests that it is from the legendary hero Cephalos, who reigned in Phocis in Central Greece and came to the island as a refugee from Athens. Others claim that because 'Cephalos' is derived from the Greek word for 'head', the name means 'an island with a head' - referring to its form.

At one time, when I studied the geography of the Ionian Islands from my world atlas - where all placenames are written in the individual countiries' own languages, I found that the Greek name of the island is Kefallinía (Κεφαλληνία).

Wasn't it a natural gesture of Jon to name the largest of the islands in his new kingdom after the burgh-femme whom he had saved and recently brought to the Mediterranean? It was also just the seamen who had given Minerva that name (62/10-11). As the basis of the designation gradually sank into oblivion, neha- became keha-, because it was easier to pronounce. The first syllable, neha- - an h between two vowels - isn't easily pronounceable for anybody. In people's everyday speech the word was simply deemed to be changed into either 'Nefallennia' or 'Kefallennia'; and in the name Cephalos we find almost an attestation that the Greeks would naturally choose the k instead of the n. Moreover, the Greek η (êta) is pronounced 'ê', like in the English 'hey' - which gives us 'Kefallênía'. In the last instance it is simply the same word as Nehalennia.

Also Raubenheimer makes the hint that there might be "a relation between Cephallenia and Nyhellenia" (p. 140). It doesn't exist one single name another place on the globe which resembles that word more than this one - probably not even other placenames that could have had this name as their base linguistically. I think this also suggests that Nyhellênja was pronounced more like Nehalennia by the ancient Frisians.

Indeed, when the Greeks are writing, they utilize more versions of the name, and the most regularly used one is Kefalonia (Κεφαλονιά) and Kefallonia (Κεφαλλονιά). English speakers usually write Cephalonia - but also Kefalonia, Kefallonia, Cephallonia and Kefallinia.

Homer was the first who used the term Cephalites, and he then alluded to Odysseus' people on several Ionian Islands. This indicates that Jon's people may have regarded Nyhellênja as their spiritual leader.

You go from N to K and from H to F to change Nehalennia into Kefallinia. I think that's a bit farfetched.

And no placenames similar to Nehalennia? I remember I posted names (but not placenames) of several Germanic/Celtic goddesses with almost the same name.

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Many of us have been discussing the placename "Kadik" as mentioned in the OLB.

I am not going to repeat all that again, but I found something I'd like to add.

First from Wiki:

The city was originally founded as Gadir (Phoenician גדר "walled city") by the Phoenicians from Tyre, who used it in their trade with Tartessos, a city-state believed by archaeologists to be somewhere near the mouth of the Guadalquivir River, about thirty kilometres northwest of Cadiz. (Its exact location has never been firmly established.)

Cadiz is the most ancient city still standing in Western Europe. Traditionally, its founding is dated to 1104 BC although no archaeological strata on the site can be dated earlier than the 9th century BC. One resolution for this discrepancy has been to assume that Gadir was merely a small seasonal trading post in its earliest days.

Later, the Greeks knew the city as Gadira or Gadeira. According to Greek legend, Gadir was founded by Hercules after performing his fabled tenth labour, the slaying of Geryon, a monstrous warrior-titan with three heads and three torsos joined to a single pair of legs. As early as the 3rd century, a tumulus (a large earthen mound) near Cádiz was associated with Geryon's final resting-place.

One of the city's notable features during antiquity was the temple dedicated to the Phoenician god Melqart. (Melqart was associated with Hercules by the Greeks.) According to the Life of Apollonius of Tyana, the temple was still standing during the 1st century. Some historians, based in part on this source, believe that the columns ofthis temple were the origin of the myth of the pillars of Hercules.

Votive statues of Melqert-Hercules from the Islote de Sancti PetriAround 500 BC, the city fell under the sway of Carthage. Cadiz became a base of operations for Hannibal's conquest of southern Iberia. However, in 206 BC, the city fell to Roman forces under Scipio Africanus. The people of Cadiz welcomed the victors. Under the Romans, the city's Greek name was modified to Gades; it flourished as a Roman naval base.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Cadiz#History

Why would the Romans 'modify' the city's name to Gades?

Maybe because of that temple that was holy to its Phoenician, Cathaginian and Hebrew inhabitants?

Kadesh:

From the Semitic root Q-D-Š, meaning Holy. Kadesh means "the holy city" in reference to the followers of Qetesh.

http://en.wikipedia....adesh#Etymology

Qetesh is a goddess adopted into Egyptian mythology from the Canaanite religion, popular during the New Kingdom. She was a fertility goddess of sacred ecstasy and sexual pleasure.

The name was probably vocalized by Egyptians as *Qātiša from the Semitic root Q-D-Š meaning 'holy'. Her city of worship was naturally Qadesh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qetesh

I am sure one of the ex-members of this site and a fanatic participant of this thread, now posting on the Stormfront site under the name "HLH" (guess what that stands for.....hint: it starts with Heinrich), will love this explanation.

:P

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Edited by Abramelin

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Apparently I am not the first to think of "Kadesh" being one of the names (or maybe title) of Cadiz. Lol, some even use it as 'proof' for Atlantis !

Researches and Missionary Labours Among the Jews, Mohammedans, and Other Sects - Joseph Wolff / 1835 / page 202

http://books.google...."cadiz"&f=false

On page 492 Kadesh-barneah is called "the mother city of Cadiz in Spain". A source is Mariana's "History of Spain".

http://www.ebooksrea...sects-hci.shtml

http://www.britannic...istory-of-Spain

http://books.google....nepage&q&f=true

"Before embarking on war with Rome, Hannibal went to Gades (Kadesh, the Holy City) and sanctified himself for the enterprise (Livy, XXI. 21)".

http://books.google...."cadiz"&f=false

Titus Livius (Livy), The History of Rome, Book 21

When Hannibal had reviewed the contingents sent in by all the nations, he went to Gades and discharged his vows to Hercules, binding himself with fresh ones, in case he should be successful in the remainder of his undertaking.

http://www.perseus.t...xt:1999.02.0152

For Hannibal Gades/Gadir/Cadiz must have been a 'holy city'. It was not anywhere on his route to Rome, it was a detour.

Now the 'Atlantis' bit, just for kicks and giggles:

Plato spoke exclusively of the Gates of Hercules as the site for Atlantis, now the present-day Gibraltar and Tangier. This location for Atlantis was verified by large numbers of Spanish and Portuguese archeologists. Adolfo Valencia estimated that Atlantis extended to 10,000 estadios (1,800 kilometers) from Gibraltar, which would bring it as far as Malta. (Valencia, 18). Since Malta and Cyprus house some of the oldest civilized remains in the Mediterranean, the extension of Atlantis to Malta is possible. (Lewis, 57). In addition, the original city of Kadesh (before the flood)), was believed to be one of the cities of Atlantis, as was Tarshish. "Biblical commentators often explain that the Tarshish referred to here (the Bible), and in other biblical passages, was probably a place called Tartessus, which they associate with a Phoenician colony near Cadiz, in Spain." (Biblical Archaeology Review, Jan/Feb 1990,59). The famous German archaeologist, Adolph Schulten, excavated Tarshish at Huelva, just north of Cadiz. His magnificent work, in Spanish, called Tartessos, is the most significant piece of research in the area of biblical archaeology in our time.

From June 1989, to the present time, Dr. Maxine Asher has researched and documented hundreds of previously undisclosed sources about Atlantis, written in medieval and archaic Spanish, and housed in the private libraries of Cadiz, including museum collections. This privileged information revealed a number of conclusive facts to support the existence of Atlantis in Spain. For example, it is written that the biblical Abraham acquired sacred scriptures, prepared thousands of years before his own time, describing the Hetea Tribe the first settlers of Cadiz. The Heteos were related to the Pelasgians, and their land was known as Heberia (Hebreo or Hebrew). Later, this name changed to Iberia (Quintero, 121,123). This leads the author to believe that the majority of people who inhabited Atlantis were Semitic in origin and that the Rock, referred to in the Book of Psalms, was the rock of Gibraltar. "Which turned the Rock into a standing water, the flint into a fountain of waters." (Psalms,14:8). The first Kadesh (Cadiz) is also cited in Psalms relative to the Flood. "The Lord shaketh the wilderness of Kadesh" (Psalms 29:8).

http://dir.groups.ya...es/message/1479

http://www.boervolk....read.php?t=1152

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Edited by Abramelin
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So, now we have a Semitic explanation for the name 'Cadiz', we have Phoenicians trading/mining tin in Cornwall, we have a Dutch seagoddess "Nehalennia" with a possible Semitic/Phoenician etymology ("guardian of ships"), we have a German linguist (Theo Vennemann) who says that Punic (Phoenician) influenced Germanic languages, we have Minoan/Mycenean seals showing up in N/W Germany and a Linear B rock-inscription in Sweden, we have Minoan ship's utensils showing up in the German Bight...

Puzz posted this:

Fosite/Forseti was the God of Heligoland, called Holy Land as well.

"Fosite has been suggested to be a loan of Greek Poseidon into pre-Proto-Germanic, perhaps via Greeks purchasing amber (Pytheas is known to have visited the area of Heligoland in search of amber)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forseti

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=179840&st=525#entry3685960

All are hints of people from the Mediterranean visiting the North Sea area 3 or more millennia ago.

Do we have anything similar the other way round?

No.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I tried to post a reply to one of the newest arrivals on the Stormfront site (yep, I registered as "Abramelin"), to our "Otharus":

http://www.stormfron.../forum/t931830/

But they won't let me.

Maybe my username is too 'Jewish', lol.

If they only knew....

.

Edited by Abramelin

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