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Big Bad Voodoo

Sphinx and GP dates from 10 500 BC?

1,651 posts in this topic

Hi tri lobe,

I read your posts before about tri lobed disc. I must say that I espect that this thread become educational in the future. When something new(old) idea is brought and its huge(or fabricated) it sure will cause a lot of storm. You must espect this. Maybe thats better then not geting feedback at all. I have had some realy nice threads with valid questions yet they were or ignored or people didnt know what to say. But I highly doubt last one is cause since many of UMers would at least say something to keep fire going. I would not call them gang. They are interesting, thoughtfull, wise, educated and above all (some) polite people. I must say they are far connected on this site (who were they?? I guess skeptiks) then for example "bizzare fringes" as first one used to call people with questions and creative ideas. But skepiks arent guilty for it. Scott and you shouldnt be scared or anything. They wont bite you. They are here fot speuculation and talk. Who say that you can wrote here same as in others forums? Personally I would be happy. Maybe I wont get answer on this forum and thats because on some questions no one knows answer. It better to have open good question then wrong answer, imho. Beside I like some of your posts I beg you that you dont fight against person fight against arguments. I dont know why Kmt worries you? He is a great and nice guy. No one say that his words are last. He is here same you and me. It just his opinon, which I respect same as others. And I can see you are upset but I would like that you calm down and that you too do some "blah blah". Because thats why we are here. And if you knows better and different we NEED you. Its like Germans used to tell when looking for new workers:" I dont want ones who thinks like me, hire someone that thinks differently."

I hope you all will calm down and stay for good.

EDIT: This could be start of wonderfull friendship although I doubt since my lack of social skills. But we could try, what do you think? :)

hello L,

thank you for the kind words......I'M open to people........

but i will call a spade a spade....

I have notice on this site....that words speak louder than actions......which is the opposite to the real world that i come from...

I have noticed on this forum a snobbery that exist's.........

and that there's a group that follows the snobbery.....

Like the inquisition .....they attack where adifferent point of view is expressed....and they will do it like a pack of dogs.....

I believe that some of these people have raised children....what a depressing thought.......

Talk about control freaks running the asylum......

But this is this forum..........

but L I am open to discussion should you wish......

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people need to stop getting off topic,

your acting like school children.

if your going to make a claim that challenges the researched findings, please come to the table with some from of proof.

2 people like this

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people need to stop getting off topic,

your acting like school children.

if your going to make a claim that challenges the researched findings, please come to the table with some from of proof.

Post 1. ;)

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Posted (edited)

Hi UM,

Well, there you have it folks – Kmt is off to seek succour in the bosom of his biased buddies and doesn’t want to play anymore. That’s his choice. But it does not excuse his biased cherry-picking of evidence in any way, shape or form. If he had really studied AE history for 20 years as he has claimed then he would almost certainly have known folks that there is much more to the question of the Sphinx’s age and its ownership than the paltry nuggets of information he decided to present to us in his posts #26 & #27. Those posts are a first class example of the sleight of hand, of the cherry-picking of facts that are conveniently used to prop up the mainstream historical narrative, namely the flawed tomb theory wedded to the notion that Rachaf crafted the Sphinx.

But folks, stand well back a moment and take a wider perspective. (It’s much easy to do that when you are out here on the fringe – a really cool place to be if you want to see the bigger picture). Kmt makes great play of the fact (not disputed) that the Inventory Stele dates to a much later period (26th dynasty) which – according to mainstream thought - is roughly 2000 years after the Sphinx was supposed to have been crafted. What Kmt omits to inform us is that the name Rachaf (Khafre) does not appear anywhere on the body of the Sphinx (nor on the pyramid attributed to him). The only inscription of Rachaf (or partial inscription I should say, ‘Chaf’) appears on the Dream Stele, a tablet of stone that stands between the paws of the Sphinx.

But folks, the so-called Dream Stele was created 1,000 years after the Sphinx was (supposedly) crafted and it does not state at all that Rachaf created it. This Dream Stele, bearing the ‘Chaf’ inscription is held up as evidence by the Egyptologists and their Egypt-apologists as proof of Rachaf’s hand in creating the Sphinx. So essentially folks, it’s okay to use a stone record if it is only 1,000 years after the supposed event but NOT if it is 2,000 years after. And it is okay for them to use the Dream Stele in this way because it offers a glimmer of support to their particular narrative with regards to the chronology and ownership of these monuments. The Inventory Stele, on the other hand, does not support their narrative so it is ignored and regarded by the Egypt-apologists as a “pious fraud”, created much later by the Saite priests to confer their cult with legitimacy.

So the Inventory Stele (written 2,000 years after the supposed time of the Sphinx) is a “pious fraud” but the Dream Stele (written 1,000 years after the supposed time of the Sphinx) is perfectly okay. Folks - does this not reek with the utter stench of cherry-picking your evidence? Let us take a few moments here to have a look at the Inventory Stele and then we will see exactly why the Egyptologists and their apologists reject the ‘testimony’ of the Inventory Stele and why it is expedient of them to do so.

“Long live the Mezer, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Khufu, given life. He made for his Mother, Isis, the Divine Mother, Mistress of the Western Mountain, a decree made on a stela; he gave to her a new divine offering, and he built her a temple of stone, renewing what he had found, namely these gods in her place.

Live Horus, the Mezer, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Khufu, given life. He found the house of Isis, Mistress of the Pyramid, by the side of the hollow of Hwran [The Sphinx] …and he built his pyramid beside the temple of this goddess and he built a pyramid for the King's daughter Henutsen beside this temple.

The place of Hwran Hor-em-akhet is on the South side of the House of Isis, Mistress of the pyramid and on the north of Osiris, Lord of Rostaw. The plans of the image of Hor-em-akhet were brought in order to bring to revision the sayings of the disposition of the Image of the Very Redoubtable.

He restored the statue all covered in painting, of the Guardian of the Atmosphere, who guides the winds with his gaze. He made to quarry the hind part of the nemes headdress, which was lacking, from gilded stone, and which had a length of about 7 ells (3.70 metres).

He came to make a tour, in order to see the thunderbolt, which stands in the place of the Sycamore, so named because of a great sycamore, whose branches were struck when the Lord of Heaven descended upon the place of Hor-em-akhet, and also this image, retracing the erasure according to the above-mentioned disposition…

The figure of this god, cut in stone, is solid and will last to eternity, keeping its face looking always to the Orient.”- Hassan, Selim, The Sphinx, p.222-23

It seems then, folks, that the Inventory Stele may actually commemorate the construction of Khufu’s pyramid in addition to the maintenance and repair works he carried out to various other structures within the Giza complex. Specifically named are the Temple of Isis and the Sphinx which, of course, clearly implies that, contrary to mainstream opinion, the cult of Osiris/Isis was highly developed (Isis is referred to as a goddess and Osiris as Lord) as early as the 4th dynasty (if not before).

Furthermore, the Sphinx, traditionally attributed to Rachaf (Khafre) by Egyptologists, could not have been built by Rachaf since it seemingly already existed in the time of his predecessor, Khufu (who apparently had it repaired). Furthermore, the Sphinx must already have been of great age if it required restoration by Khufu.

In the 1930s, when Egyptologist Professor Selim Hassan was clearing away the sands that had long since engulfed the Sphinx, he discovered that such ancient repairs had indeed been made to the head of the Sphinx and that the dimensions of the repair work he observed closely matched the dimensions stated in the Inventory Stele, 3.7 metres. Hassan also noted that a sycamore tree was growing slightly to the south of the Sphinx and, given that these trees can live for thousands of years, surmised that it may have been an offshoot of the original sycamore mentioned in the Inventory Stele that had been struck with a bolt of lightning. Traces of ancient paint (mentioned in the Inventory Stele) have also been found on the side of the Sphinx’s head. So it seems that – far from being a “pious fraud” – the Inventory Stele clearly speaks of events of proven historical fact and this must surely confer credibility upon the testimony of the Inventory Stele as a whole. For Egyptologists to simply dismiss this text because it does not fit their particular narrative is outrageous. Rather than change their narrative they would rather dismiss the evidence that doesn’t fit their narrative. How convenient, how expedient.

Now, there is another body of evidence that lends support to the veracity of the Inventory Stele testimony. It comes from the field of geology. In 1997 (revised 1999) geologist Colin D. Reader undertook a review of the geology, geomorphology and surface hydrology of the Giza necropolis which has led to a revised sequence of development for the site. The key findings of Reader are as follows:

  • In accordance with the conventional sequence of development, the excavation of the Sphinx post-dates the construction of Khufu's pyramid and the working of the associated quarries. Given the effect of Khufu's quarries on the surface hydrology of the site, this sequence of development largely precludes the erosion of the Sphinx enclosure by rainfall run-off25 - yet I consider that without the action of this agent of erosion, it is not possible to fully account for all the features of degradation that are present within the Sphinx enclosure. On this basis, therefore, I conclude that the excavation of the Sphinx was undertaken some time before Khufu's quarrying began, when rainfall over the more elevated areas of the Giza plateau was able to run-off a substantial catchment, gathering momentum before finally discharging into the Sphinx enclosure.
  • …there is evidence to suggest that this Fourth Dynasty activity represents only a limited phase of construction within the Sphinx enclosure and can not be used to date the original construction of either the Sphinx or Sphinx temple. According to the Egyptologist H. Ricke, a 'seam' can be identified which runs through the masonry of all four corners of the Sphinx temple. This feature can be readily identified on the south east face of the structure, adjacent to Khafre's valley temple (Plate 3ii). According to Ricke, "this [seam] marked the outside of the walls of the temple in its first building phase. The north and south colonnades of the temple...were added after the interior of the temple had been largely finished with granite sheathing. For the addition, the middle part of the north and south walls were pushed back, and great limestone core blocks were added to the outside corners of the temple, which were never finished off"26. Given that the abandoned core blocks, discovered under the Amenhotep II temple, were destined for the "...corner of the Sphinx temple" they are evidently part of Ricke's second building phase. On the evidence of the pottery found beneath the masonry, this second phase of construction, together with the limited quarrying to the north of the Sphinx temple, can be dated to the Fourth Dynasty. Ricke does not speculate on the period of time that separated this Fourth Dynasty activity from the proceeding phase of Sphinx temple construction. However, on the basis of degradation of the limestones exposed within the Sphinx enclosure, it is evident that the two operations were undertaken under different conditions of weathering and erosion and were probably, therefore, separated by a significant period of time.
  • The limited Fourth Dynasty quarry face, identified by Lehner (Figure 3 and Plate 3i), was excavated from relatively durable Member I rocks. Since being quarried in the Fourth Dynasty, this quarry face has been subject to weathering and erosion (including the processes of chemical weathering and exfoliation) and yet exhibits only slight degradation (see Plate 3i). By contrast, the same Member I beds, exposed elsewhere within the Sphinx enclosure, are more intensely degraded. The contrast in the intensity of degradation at the western limit of the Fourth Dynasty quarrying is striking (Plate 4i)29, with the exposures beyond the limit of quarrying being heavily degraded. I consider that the generally more intense degradation of the Member I rocks exposed within the Sphinx enclosure, can only be explained by attributing the construction of the Sphinx and the first phase of the Sphinx temple to a period before Khufu quarried the site, when the exposed limestone was subject to erosion by surface run-off.
  • Under the conventional sequence of development, "Khafre's" causeway (and the Sphinx), were undeveloped at the time of Khufu's quarrying. If this sequence is correct, why should the extent of the quarrying have been limited by a feature (the causeway) that was not developed until sometime after Khufu's reign? The conventional sequence of development requires us to accept that Khufu's workmen went to the trouble of opening up a second quarry to the south of the causeway, rather than remove a linear body of rock which, at the time, served no apparent purpose.

You can read Colin Reader’s full paper here: Source.

As you can see, the geology of the Giza Plateau itself strongly suggests that the Sphinx existed even before Khufu and that this geological fact is supported and corroborated by the testimony of the Inventory Stele.

So folks, as you can see from the above, there’s more – much, much more - to the historical picture of the Sphinx than the narrow, highly selective picture Kmt portrays or would probably want you to know about. He presents only his own narrow narrative; a filtered picture of our past designed to impress upon the good folks here that there is only one truth; that all the facts are being presented to you and that they point only to the particular narrative the Egyptologists think they have properly worked out. Folks – Kmt’s filtered, biased narrative is FAR from the whole story.

Now that you have some more facts (and these are by no means exhaustive) the choice now is yours. You have to decide who has the best evidence and the best corroborated evidence. You pays your money, you takes your choice. At least I hope you are now a bit more informed than you were before and realise that the question is not as cut and dried as Kmt & Co leads you to believe.

Best wishes,

Scott Creighton

Edited by Scott Creighton

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people need to stop getting off topic,

your acting like school children.

if your going to make a claim that challenges the researched findings, please come to the table with some from of proof.

HEY WM,

why don't you start the ball rolling????

instead of whinge-ing....walk the walk ....do'nt regurgiate other's opinion's....

what's you're opinion???....or are you too scared to state it because of repercussion to your income....

I have nothing to worry about in this department.....I'M free to speak my mind...

what say you .....watchman...or do you just watch like some voyeur??????

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hello L,

thank you for the kind words......I'M open to people........

but i will call a spade a spade....

I have notice on this site....that words speak louder than actions......which is the opposite to the real world that i come from...

I have noticed on this forum a snobbery that exist's.........

and that there's a group that follows the snobbery.....

Like the inquisition .....they attack where adifferent point of view is expressed....and they will do it like a pack of dogs.....

I believe that some of these people have raised children....what a depressing thought.......

Talk about control freaks running the asylum......

But this is this forum..........

but L I am open to discussion should you wish......

No one can control you if you dont alow them. Even if some acts non poilte I would not call your words but be aware that Nazi and Inqusition loose because of brave people. In some sense we are all scientists. Some better some worse. We all orginize our knowledge best we can. And Einstein said: "Most people say that it is the intellect which makes a great scientist. They are wrong. It is character." So show some characther and value your knowledge, theories and hypothesis. You might loose battle but if you are not malicous and pursuit truth you will won the war.

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Posted (edited)

CHILDREN STOP IT NOW!

post-129264-0-96240600-1338735546_thumb.

Edited by Erudite Celt

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HEY WM,

why don't you start the ball rolling????

instead of whinge-ing....walk the walk ....do'nt regurgiate other's opinion's....

what's you're opinion???....or are you too scared to state it because of repercussion to your income....

I have nothing to worry about in this department.....I'M free to speak my mind...

what say you .....watchman...or do you just watch like some voyeur??????

hmm theres a quote comes to mind, something about opening ones mouth and removing all doubt.

but my beliefs? well im pretty sure that the sphinx was carved from existing rock on the plateau.

we know for sure rock here was quarryed to build the gp, so its most likely it was carved at the same time.

but im certainly no expert.

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CHILDREN STOP IT NOW!

I admit that Im childish but why are you mad? Because we eat all cookies?! :P

Actually Im trying to convience tri lobe to stay and have polite "fight." This is my second time so far on UM to do that. Last time I was doing this is when I conviencing booNy to not leaving site. I never ask him did I convience him or someone else?...

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hmm theres a quote comes to mind, something about opening ones mouth and removing all doubt.

but my beliefs? well im pretty sure that the sphinx was carved from existing rock on the plateau.

we know for sure rock here was quarryed to build the gp, so its most likely it was carved at the same time.

but im certainly no expert.

WM,

You have been misled. No blocks were quarried from the Sphinx enclosure and used to build the Great Pyramid. These blocks removed from the Sphinx enclosure were utilised to build the Sphinx Temple in front of the Sphinx. See my post above for a full explanation.

Best wishes,

SC

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WM,

You have been misled. No blocks were quarried from the Sphinx enclosure and used to build the Great Pyramid. These blocks removed from the Sphinx enclosure were utilised to build the Sphinx Temple in front of the Sphinx. See my post above for a full explanation.

Best wishes,

SC

i stand corrected, but where did the materials used to build the gp come from?

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hmm theres a quote comes to mind, something about opening ones mouth and removing all doubt.

but my beliefs? well im pretty sure that the sphinx was carved from existing rock on the plateau.

we know for sure rock here was quarryed to build the gp, so its most likely it was carved at the same time.

but im certainly no expert.

HEY Wm ,

father or son......who was it?????

kufu or kafra......?????

what say you watchman??????

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Regarding the Sphinx one should not forget that according to Josephus it was Abraham who brought the science of Astronomy and High Mathematics to the Early Egyptians. Even today the Jews tend to stand head and shoulders over other peoples in these fields of science.

Some interesting sources below.

http://wise-obs.tau.ac.il/judaism/jewish_astro.html

http://www.annettereed.com/reed_abraham.pdf

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-1.htm

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i stand corrected, but where did the materials used to build the gp come from?

Hi WM,

No worries. Khufu used two quarries on the Giza Plateau - one to the west of the Sphinx enclosure and one in the Central area of the plateau (see image below):

gizaplan2.jpg

Source.

Best wishes,

SC

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HEY Wm ,

father or son......who was it?????

kufu or kafra......?????

what say you watchman??????

i dont know, i wasnt there.

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HEY Wm ,

father or son......who was it?????

kufu or kafra......?????

what say you watchman??????

Hey wm,

I notice in you'r first line the derogatory comment.....

thanks mate that's why i name people like you with that snotty attitude.....Wayne keers.......you earned it......

you are not robbinson cruesoe in this department......

you share this with others of you're kind....

THANK YOU wm i learnt nothing from your post.....

this is the normal response........from what ever........

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i dont know, i wasnt there.

....

OOHH come on wm.....

you dont have any thing to contribute.....

but you criticize others...... yes that is the UM standardthat is normal on this forum......

yes.... you were'nt there ...........what a copp-out.....

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Now, there is another body of evidence that lends support to the veracity of the Inventory Stele testimony. It comes from the field of geology. In 1997 (revised 1999) geologist Colin D. Reader undertook a review of the geology, geomorphology and surface hydrology of the Giza necropolis which has led to a revised sequence of development for the site. The key findings of Reader are as follows:

Reader's paper has been rebutted by recent studies, including this one from 2006 by G Vandecruys. It addresses all the 'issues' Reader suggests points to an Early Dynastic phase of building at the Giza necropolis, including the Sphinx, temples, etc, and finishes with a conclusion there is insufficient credibility in Reader's thesis to suggest the Sphinx was not built by Khafre.

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Posted (edited)

Hi UM,

Well, there you have it folks – Kmt is off to seek succour in the bosom of his biased buddies and doesn’t want to play anymore. That’s his choice. But it does not excuse his biased cherry-picking of evidence in any way, shape or form. If he had really studied AE history for 20 years as he has claimed then he would almost certainly have known folks that there is much more to the question of the Sphinx’s age and its ownership than the paltry nuggets of information he decided to present to us in his posts #26 & #27. Those posts are a first class example of the sleight of hand, of the cherry-picking of facts that are conveniently used to prop up the mainstream historical narrative, namely the flawed tomb theory wedded to the notion that Rachaf crafted the Sphinx.

But folks, stand well back a moment and take a wider perspective. (It’s much easy to do that when you are out here on the fringe – a really cool place to be if you want to see the bigger picture). Kmt makes great play of the fact (not disputed) that the Inventory Stele dates to a much later period (26th dynasty) which – according to mainstream thought - is roughly 2000 years after the Sphinx was supposed to have been crafted. What Kmt omits to inform us is that the name Rachaf (Khafre) does not appear anywhere on the body of the Sphinx (nor on the pyramid attributed to him). The only inscription of Rachaf (or partial inscription I should say, ‘Chaf’) appears on the Dream Stele, a tablet of stone that stands between the paws of the Sphinx.

But folks, the so-called Dream Stele was created 1,000 years after the Sphinx was (supposedly) crafted and it does not state at all that Rachaf created it. This Dream Stele, bearing the ‘Chaf’ inscription is held up as evidence by the Egyptologists and their Egypt-apologists as proof of Rachaf’s hand in creating the Sphinx. So essentially folks, it’s okay to use a stone record if it is only 1,000 years after the supposed event but NOT if it is 2,000 years after. And it is okay for them to use the Dream Stele in this way because it offers a glimmer of support to their particular narrative with regards to the chronology and ownership of these monuments. The Inventory Stele, on the other hand, does not support their narrative so it is ignored and regarded by the Egypt-apologists as a “pious fraud”, created much later by the Saite priests to confer their cult with legitimacy.

So the Inventory Stele (written 2,000 years after the supposed time of the Sphinx) is a “pious fraud” but the Dream Stele (written 1,000 years after the supposed time of the Sphinx) is perfectly okay. Folks - does this not reek with the utter stench of cherry-picking your evidence? Let us take a few moments here to have a look at the Inventory Stele and then we will see exactly why the Egyptologists and their apologists reject the ‘testimony’ of the Inventory Stele and why it is expedient of them to do so.

It seems then, folks, that the Inventory Stele may actually commemorate the construction of Khufu’s pyramid in addition to the maintenance and repair works he carried out to various other structures within the Giza complex. Specifically named are the Temple of Isis and the Sphinx which, of course, clearly implies that, contrary to mainstream opinion, the cult of Osiris/Isis was highly developed (Isis is referred to as a goddess and Osiris as Lord) as early as the 4th dynasty (if not before).

Furthermore, the Sphinx, traditionally attributed to Rachaf (Khafre) by Egyptologists, could not have been built by Rachaf since it seemingly already existed in the time of his predecessor, Khufu (who apparently had it repaired). Furthermore, the Sphinx must already have been of great age if it required restoration by Khufu.

In the 1930s, when Egyptologist Professor Selim Hassan was clearing away the sands that had long since engulfed the Sphinx, he discovered that such ancient repairs had indeed been made to the head of the Sphinx and that the dimensions of the repair work he observed closely matched the dimensions stated in the Inventory Stele, 3.7 metres. Hassan also noted that a sycamore tree was growing slightly to the south of the Sphinx and, given that these trees can live for thousands of years, surmised that it may have been an offshoot of the original sycamore mentioned in the Inventory Stele that had been struck with a bolt of lightning. Traces of ancient paint (mentioned in the Inventory Stele) have also been found on the side of the Sphinx’s head. So it seems that – far from being a “pious fraud” – the Inventory Stele clearly speaks of events of proven historical fact and this must surely confer credibility upon the testimony of the Inventory Stele as a whole. For Egyptologists to simply dismiss this text because it does not fit their particular narrative is outrageous. Rather than change their narrative they would rather dismiss the evidence that doesn’t fit their narrative. How convenient, how expedient.

Now, there is another body of evidence that lends support to the veracity of the Inventory Stele testimony. It comes from the field of geology. In 1997 (revised 1999) geologist Colin D. Reader undertook a review of the geology, geomorphology and surface hydrology of the Giza necropolis which has led to a revised sequence of development for the site. The key findings of Reader are as follows:

  • In accordance with the conventional sequence of development, the excavation of the Sphinx post-dates the construction of Khufu's pyramid and the working of the associated quarries. Given the effect of Khufu's quarries on the surface hydrology of the site, this sequence of development largely precludes the erosion of the Sphinx enclosure by rainfall run-off25 - yet I consider that without the action of this agent of erosion, it is not possible to fully account for all the features of degradation that are present within the Sphinx enclosure. On this basis, therefore, I conclude that the excavation of the Sphinx was undertaken some time before Khufu's quarrying began, when rainfall over the more elevated areas of the Giza plateau was able to run-off a substantial catchment, gathering momentum before finally discharging into the Sphinx enclosure.
  • …there is evidence to suggest that this Fourth Dynasty activity represents only a limited phase of construction within the Sphinx enclosure and can not be used to date the original construction of either the Sphinx or Sphinx temple. According to the Egyptologist H. Ricke, a 'seam' can be identified which runs through the masonry of all four corners of the Sphinx temple. This feature can be readily identified on the south east face of the structure, adjacent to Khafre's valley temple (Plate 3ii). According to Ricke, "this [seam] marked the outside of the walls of the temple in its first building phase. The north and south colonnades of the temple...were added after the interior of the temple had been largely finished with granite sheathing. For the addition, the middle part of the north and south walls were pushed back, and great limestone core blocks were added to the outside corners of the temple, which were never finished off"26. Given that the abandoned core blocks, discovered under the Amenhotep II temple, were destined for the "...corner of the Sphinx temple" they are evidently part of Ricke's second building phase. On the evidence of the pottery found beneath the masonry, this second phase of construction, together with the limited quarrying to the north of the Sphinx temple, can be dated to the Fourth Dynasty. Ricke does not speculate on the period of time that separated this Fourth Dynasty activity from the proceeding phase of Sphinx temple construction. However, on the basis of degradation of the limestones exposed within the Sphinx enclosure, it is evident that the two operations were undertaken under different conditions of weathering and erosion and were probably, therefore, separated by a significant period of time.
  • The limited Fourth Dynasty quarry face, identified by Lehner (Figure 3 and Plate 3i), was excavated from relatively durable Member I rocks. Since being quarried in the Fourth Dynasty, this quarry face has been subject to weathering and erosion (including the processes of chemical weathering and exfoliation) and yet exhibits only slight degradation (see Plate 3i). By contrast, the same Member I beds, exposed elsewhere within the Sphinx enclosure, are more intensely degraded. The contrast in the intensity of degradation at the western limit of the Fourth Dynasty quarrying is striking (Plate 4i)29, with the exposures beyond the limit of quarrying being heavily degraded. I consider that the generally more intense degradation of the Member I rocks exposed within the Sphinx enclosure, can only be explained by attributing the construction of the Sphinx and the first phase of the Sphinx temple to a period before Khufu quarried the site, when the exposed limestone was subject to erosion by surface run-off.
  • Under the conventional sequence of development, "Khafre's" causeway (and the Sphinx), were undeveloped at the time of Khufu's quarrying. If this sequence is correct, why should the extent of the quarrying have been limited by a feature (the causeway) that was not developed until sometime after Khufu's reign? The conventional sequence of development requires us to accept that Khufu's workmen went to the trouble of opening up a second quarry to the south of the causeway, rather than remove a linear body of rock which, at the time, served no apparent purpose.

You can read Colin Reader’s full paper here: Source.

As you can see, the geology of the Giza Plateau itself strongly suggests that the Sphinx existed even before Khufu and that this geological fact is supported and corroborated by the testimony of the Inventory Stele.

So folks, as you can see from the above, there’s more – much, much more - to the historical picture of the Sphinx than the narrow, highly selective picture Kmt portrays or would probably want you to know about. He presents only his own narrow narrative; a filtered picture of our past designed to impress upon the good folks here that there is only one truth; that all the facts are being presented to you and that they point only to the particular narrative the Egyptologists think they have properly worked out. Folks – Kmt’s filtered, biased narrative is FAR from the whole story.

Now that you have some more facts (and these are by no means exhaustive) the choice now is yours. You have to decide who has the best evidence and the best corroborated evidence. You pays your money, you takes your choice. At least I hope you are now a bit more informed than you were before and realise that the question is not as cut and dried as Kmt & Co leads you to believe.

Best wishes,

Scott Creighton

Very good points Scott. It seems that everytime someone presents ample and valid evidence to dispute what the majority has already ruled as a definite given (accepted opinion) although actually incorrect 'orthodox' thinking, then like vipors posters strike out in many ways just to stop the truth from being heard. Many of them do so just to stick up with the 'clan', understand, agree or not. The dream stele as you accurately pointed out is thousands of years behind the inventory stele.

The Sphinx has sat for thousands of years, oudating the building of the GP, while actually overlooking construction and guarding the schematic blueprints utilized for engineering reference in deep chambers still in tact far below the surface of the GP

It is obvious to myself that the Sphinx outdates the GP.

Edited by Time Spy

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Reader's paper has been rebutted by recent studies, including this one from 2006 by G Vandecruys. It addresses all the 'issues' Reader suggests points to an Early Dynastic phase of building at the Giza necropolis, including the Sphinx, temples, etc, and finishes with a conclusion there is insufficient credibility in Reader's thesis to suggest the Sphinx was not built by Khafre.

Reader responds to Vandecruys:

Colin Reader, "Response to Vandecruys (2006)," PalArch: Netherlands Scientific Journal, Vol. 1, No. 2 (2006), 13 pp.

In his response to Vandecruys, Reader observed that the water table at Giza is well below the floor of the Sphinx enclosure (and of Campbell's Tomb) and has been below it in historic times. Rainwater normally drains down to the water table. Some water might still have moved toward the enclosure along the relatively less permeable beds of Member II strata in the plateau behind the Sphinx. But the dip of the plateau would have caused any subsurface flow of water to erode the western enclosure wall more than the southern wall. Yet the western half of the southern wall shows as much erosion as the western wall.

Regarding Campbell's Tomb, Reader observed that its walls did not show any coving or rounding of the kind visible in the Sphinx enclosure. Reader also noted the erosion channel on the floor of the latter, originating below the major fissure on the southern wall, as evidence of surface runoff into the enclosure (drawn in Fig. 2.2).

Reader agreed that the northern terrace wall opposite the Sphinx Temple becomes slightly more weathered as it proceeds into open space to the east. But this difference does not explain the much greater contrast of these two exposures to the severely degraded wall opposite the north flank of the Sphinx.

Reader agreed that it was uncertain how much stone Khufu removed from the quarry north of the Khafra Causeway, and thus how far Khufu may have respected a preexisting pathway there. Reader observed that the likelihood of the ground for the causeway surviving Khufu's excavations by accident was still rather low.

Gerd Vandecruys, "Response to Reader (2006): More geological and archaeological data on the Sphinx discussion," PalArch: Netherlands Scientific Journal, Vol. 1, No. 1 (2006), 11 pp.

In a follow-up article, Vandecruys argued that the plateau behind the Sphinx enclosure was criss-crossed with joints through which subsurface interflow could have reached the Sphinx enclosure more easily than through the rock itself. He noted that the top ledge of the southern enclosure wall was relatively smooth and uneroded compared to the deeply eroded strata of the wall below. Subsurface flow could better explain this anomaly than runoff, which should have eroded the top of the wall.

Vandecruys noted that the erosion channel on the floor of the Sphinx enclosure is incised in an area that still belongs to the Member II layer and thus probably required very little water to erode into its present form. Vandecruys also cited Lehner's argument that a low enclosure wall around the south side of the Khafra Valley Temple pointed to the construction of that temple before the Sphinx Temple.

Colin Reader, "Further considerations on development at Giza before the 4th dynasty," PalArch: Netherlands Scientific Journal, Vol. 1, No. 2 (2006), 13 pp.

In his follow-up response, Reader noted that the force of any subsurface water that did flow laterally would have been greater moving downhill than uphill. Since interflow would have needed to go around the southwest corner of the Sphinx enclosure and then partly uphill to erode the southern wall from the inside out, the western end of the south wall should display less erosion than the western wall. But the western half of the southern wall is just as eroded as the western wall.

Regarding the uneroded top ledge of the southern wall, Reader proposed that the surface was recut to lay the Khafra Causeway and thus cannot be cited as evidence against surface runoff in earlier centuries. Traces that Reader interpreted as gulleying can still be seen at the base of the causeway. Reader proposed that the ground of the future causeway was only a path in Early Dynastic times.

Reader also pointed to a small section cut out of the degraded northern terrace wall inside the Sphinx enclosure (Fig. 8.8 below, marked A), below the New Kingdom temple. The rectilinearity and smoothness of the cutback resembled that of the wall opposite the north side of the Sphinx Temple but was more exposed than the latter. Reader argued that both should be dated to the Old Kingdom.

northwallwest2.jpg

Fig. 8.8. The severely eroded northern terrace wall inside the Sphinx enclosure terminates abruptly (at the cut marked "A") just below the New Kingdom temple. Courtesy and copyright of Colin Reader.

In addressing the question of whether the Sphinx Temple rests on the northern perimeter of an enclosure wall originally planned or built as part of the Khafra Valley Temple, Reader asked if the stone identified as the northeast corner was in fact the corner of an enclosure wall. The stones are uneven and their continuity may be questioned. Since they appear to intercept the present southeast corner of the Sphinx Temple, which Herbert Ricke identified with the second stage of the temple's construction, they would not necessarily refute the case for an earlier Sphinx Temple. - Source

Within the geological community, this particular debate is far from over. Fact of the matter remains, Reader's opinion of an earlier Sphinx is supported and corroborated by what the AEs themselves have written in the Inventory Stele (believed to have been based on a much more ancient and original text).

Best wishes,

SC

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Reader responds to Vandecruys:

Within the geological community, this particular debate is far from over. Fact of the matter remains, Reader's opinion of an earlier Sphinx is supported and corroborated by what the AEs themselves have written in the Inventory Stele (believed to have been based on a much more ancient and original text).

Best wishes,

SC

I bevel here we have another severe case of somebody pressing his index fingers in his ear and squealing as loud as he can: "lalala I can't hear you".

Just compare the severe "weathering" with pictures of before rampant air pollution in Giza and surprise surprise it disappears... ooops...

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Blaming recent pollution for the apparent weathering of the Sphinx is quite a stretch; please see Robert Temple's book about the mysterious origins of the temple of Anubis... He makes some pretty strange claims but the collection of very old photographs in the book attest to the erosion and also to the fact that the sphinx has been modified to the point where you loose sight of the original. His previous books were short on research but on this one he seems to have done his homework. Particularly when it comes to examining the head of the sphinx to find out who best fits the look. He suggests that its Amenhotep(?) from something like the 17th dynasty based on facial similarities and the fact that the nemes headress fits the 17th dynasty. No way that that was a pharoah from the 4th dynasty!! So was it originally Anubis? (a dog!!) Tough to tell but that would make a perfect guardian for a necropolis. He also suggests that the weathering is due to the enclosure being flooded periodically for ceremonies which might please you folks who cannot stomach 10,000 BC as a date. Since you cannot accurately date stone and the amount of stone quarried out of the enclosure was minimal compared to what was used on the pyramids, I'd say that the actual date of its creation is still very much in doubt. More research is needed...

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My biggest problem with the 10,500 date is the lack of other large edifaces built at the same time. There's no evidence of other large building projects until much later. Do I believe the date given by Egyptologists? Enough to accept it, but not enough to be at all surprised if/when someoen comes up with a different date based upon their own research and compelling evidence.

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Hi UM,

Well, there you have it folks – Kmt is off to seek succour in the bosom of his biased buddies and doesn’t want to play anymore. That’s his choice. But it does not excuse his biased cherry-picking of evidence in any way, shape or form. If he had really studied AE history for 20 years as he has claimed then he would almost certainly have known folks that there is much more to the question of the Sphinx’s age and its ownership than the paltry nuggets of information he decided to present to us in his posts #26 & #27. Those posts are a first class example of the sleight of hand, of the cherry-picking of facts that are conveniently used to prop up the mainstream historical narrative, namely the flawed tomb theory wedded to the notion that Rachaf crafted the Sphinx.

...

You can carry on at length with your misrepresentation of evidence and lack of understanding of research, but I've asked you once not to reply to my posts. Instead, now, you're carrying on with inappropriate and childish personal insults against me. This is against forum policy, as I'm sure you must know.

Please cease this behavior. My only recourse next is to report you to the Admin.

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Has anyone noticed a growing trend on the forums for some members to bully, threaten and blackmail others into submission? ie, I don't like what you are writing, stop or I'll report you, stop or I'll get you banned. This is by any other name the worst kind of censorship. When one is forced to restrict the thoughts of ones mind, it creates a form of mental and intellectual imprisonment. If you want to ignore the thoughts and opinions of others a public ​forum is not the environment you want to be in. Failing that hit the ignore button and experience a bland world were everyone agrees with you!

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