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Big Bad Voodoo

Hobbits of North Caucasus

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This page shows a few from around Eurasia, They all look fairly similar and are theorised to all be tombs or for ritual purposes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolmen

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no way would a trained archaeologist/anthropologist mistake childrens' bones for adult hobbit size people. there are many things that are a dead (pun intended) giveaway such as the sutures on the skull bones and teeth just to name the obvious.

I haven't actually seen any adult sized hobbit bones myself, so it would be hard to disagree or agree with the point you are making, which would be something about the skull and teeth, right? What I assumed about hobbits is that the only real difference from a normal human is they have hairy feet and pointed ears, and that the largest of them barely make four feet in height. Looking around at human remains among the cultures of the world show countless oddities of comparisons in every part of the skeleton. I find it hard to believe you could actually pinpoint a hobbit even if or when you actually were to find one.

Did I miss a link to pictures or something?

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LotR (Tolkien) Hobbits are actually pretty tubby and wouldn't have fit in these holes at all. Plus they like comfort and lots of rooms, so these stone homes would really be frowned upon by them.

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Posted (edited)

These dolmens do not look like living space for any human, small or otherwise.

I wonder if they have more to do with hunting large game animals like bear.

Those holes look large enough for a bear's head but not his shoulders. Some rancid meat placed inside the dolmen would certainly cause a passing bear to shove his head inside for a look while he is then attacked from behind. Someone would even be safe to operate a snare or net from inside the dolmen.

Edited by lilthor

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Posted (edited)

LotR (Tolkien) Hobbits are actually pretty tubby and wouldn't have fit in these holes at all. Plus they like comfort and lots of rooms, so these stone homes would really be frowned upon by them.

I think we are looking for "Gogs".

In Ireland they are called "Grogochs" : http://www.ireland10...es/the-grogoch/

In Africa they are called "Agogwe": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agogwe

In Indonesia/Flores they are called "Ebu gogo": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebu_Gogo

And I should try to sleep.

+++++

EDIT:

Damn:

"Wherever you see two large leaning stones you know a Grogoch used to live there."

http://www.ireland10...es/the-grogoch/

:P

EDIT:

Hey, they are even on the map!!

post-18246-0-86138900-1338359544_thumb.j

:w00t:

:sleepy:

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

LOL Look, they made a documentary about these Gogs !!

At 2:20 in the video they invented the dolmen!!

[media=]

[/media] Edited by Abramelin

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I think they might be where the ancient people used to cremate bodies and put the ashes inside, since they might be stuffed in with bare hands. Maybe traps to get small animals also?

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The dolmens have a limited variety in their architecture. The floor plans are square, trapezoidal, rectangular and round. All of the dolmens are punctuated with a portal in the centre of the facade. While round portholes are the most common, square ones are also found. In front of the facade is a court that usually splays out, creating an area where rituals possibly took place. The court is usually outlined by large stone walls, sometimes over a meter high, which enclose the court. It is in this area that Bronze and Iron Age pottery has been found - which helped date these tombs -, along with human remains, bronze tools and silver, gold and semi-precious stone ornaments.

The repertoire of decoration for these tombs is not great. Vertical and horizontal zigzags, hanging triangles and concentric circles are the most common motifs. One decorative motif that is quite common is found across the top of the porthole slab. It can best be described as a lintel held up by two columns. Pairs of breasts, done in relief, have also been found on a few tombs. These breasts usually appear above the two columns of the porthole decoration. Perhaps related to these are the stone plugs, which were used to block the porthole, and are found with almost every tomb. They are sometimes phallic-shaped.

Some unusual items associated with dolmens are big round stone balls, double balls and animal sculptures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolmens_of_North_Caucasus

This is from the pdf Swede posted:

Western Caucasian Dolmens

Mysticism, Scientific Opinions,

and Perspectives on Further Study

From page 72:

I am not going to create obstacles for spiritual pilgrimages to the dolmens: faith

is too multifaceted. However, I agree with my colleague V.A. Trifonov, who, while

talking to a reporter, shared his apprehensions that followers of the “contemporary

religious and mystical movement,” with their good intentions to “clear trash from

the dolmens,” would instead clear “the last remains of the ancient cultural stratum”

from the dolmens. The sensational “discoveries” of these enthusiasts about

the dolmens’ purpose as “ultrasonic weapons of ancient people or launching platforms

for UFOs” could greatly jeopardize scientific research on these ancient structures

(Vil’de 1998; Grigor’ev 1998).

Comparisons between views of mystical followers and practicing archeologists

could be summarized in ancient Eastern wisdom, quoted from the mystics themselves:

“Truth and fiction are like oil and water: they never mix” (Spiral’ poznaniia

1992, p. 367).

http://www.circassianworld.com/pdf/Western_Caucasian_Dolmens_Markovin.pdf

And a reminder: this is the site -L- mentioned in the OP, but translated into English (or, it is an English site about these same Russian dolmen):

The Ancients

The Case for Hobbits

Hobbit Homes

Caucasian Dolmens

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/The_Case_for_Hobbits_Caucasian_Dolmens.html

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These dolmens do not look like living space for any human, small or otherwise.

I wonder if they have more to do with hunting large game animals like bear.

Those holes look large enough for a bear's head but not his shoulders. Some rancid meat placed inside the dolmen would certainly cause a passing bear to shove his head inside for a look while he is then attacked from behind. Someone would even be safe to operate a snare or net from inside the dolmen.

That's an interesting speculation Lilthor. I would assume that children could fit inside these structures, and probably many adults as well. This would definitely serve purpose as protection FROM a bear or large predator as well, like a shelter house. Wasn't there evidence of an air hole at the top, so to permit a fire to be made inside?

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That's an interesting speculation Lilthor. I would assume that children could fit inside these structures, and probably many adults as well. This would definitely serve purpose as protection FROM a bear or large predator as well, like a shelter house. Wasn't there evidence of an air hole at the top, so to permit a fire to be made inside?

Yes, these structures look utilitarian rather than religious or symbolic. Food would be the chief concern of any society and, considering the location of these dolmens relative to the Caucasus and Black Sea, large game would have been plentiful in the area. I can imagine these dolmens would have had a high 'occupancy' by hunters in late summer and fall as the need for winter food supplies approached. What better way to get close enough to dangerous prey to easily kill it while remaining safe?

Even better, many of these dolmens still look perfectly suited for such a use even after sitting there for 5000 years. How's that for good design?

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I'd be curious to find out how many dolmen , still standing, are orientated to solar or lunar positions. I don't think they would be useful housing, and I don't know why I doubt the popular idea of their use as tombs. I'm tempted to think of them as some sort of shrines. They were obviously very important to those who constructed them for such a long time and over such widespread areas .

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Posted (edited)

Yes, these structures look utilitarian rather than religious or symbolic. Food would be the chief concern of any society and, considering the location of these dolmens relative to the Caucasus and Black Sea, large game would have been plentiful in the area. I can imagine these dolmens would have had a high 'occupancy' by hunters in late summer and fall as the need for winter food supplies approached. What better way to get close enough to dangerous prey to easily kill it while remaining safe?

Even better, many of these dolmens still look perfectly suited for such a use even after sitting there for 5000 years. How's that for good design?

So you seriously think this...

post-18246-0-34559900-1338522603_thumb.j

.... is some sort of trap.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Yes, these structures look utilitarian rather than religious or symbolic. Food would be the chief concern of any society and, considering the location of these dolmens relative to the Caucasus and Black Sea, large game would have been plentiful in the area. I can imagine these dolmens would have had a high 'occupancy' by hunters in late summer and fall as the need for winter food supplies approached. What better way to get close enough to dangerous prey to easily kill it while remaining safe?

Even better, many of these dolmens still look perfectly suited for such a use even after sitting there for 5000 years. How's that for good design?

That's an excellent point, and I believe you are correct that they were used to trap for food and even store food. However I must admit that this is not what I believe to be the intended use of construction.

Let me explain. Many thousands of years ago in an era before the changing of the global rotation (day) and orbital alignment (year) mankind experienced time and the elements in an altered ego system from that which we see today. It is my opinion that in this time mankind forged tools with bronze and iron in these very 'dolmens'...

This is my proof, whether or not acceptable...

Genesis 4:10 (Right after Abel was murdered, and before the Great Flood)

The Lord said, "What have you done? Listen? Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. When you work the ground it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth". Cain said to the Lord, "My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me". But the Lord said to him, "Not so, if anyone kills Cain he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the Lord put a mark on Cain, so that no one who found him would kill him. So Cain went out from the Lord's presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden. Cain lay with his wife and she became pregnant, and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then builing a CITY and he named it after his son Enoch. To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech. Lamech married two women, one named Adah, and the other Zilah. Adah gave birth to Jabal. He was the father of those who lived in tents and raised livestock. His brother's name was Jubal. He was the father of all who played the Harp and flute. Zilah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze AND IRON...

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This is a forum about history.

Please leave religious crap out of it, or else I will start quoting from Tolkien.

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That's an excellent point, and I believe you are correct that they were used to trap for food and even store food. However I must admit that this is not what I believe to be the intended use of construction.

Let me explain. Many thousands of years ago in an era before the changing of the global rotation (day) and orbital alignment (year) mankind experienced time and the elements in an altered ego system from that which we see today. It is my opinion that in this time mankind forged tools with bronze and iron in these very 'dolmens'...

This is my proof, whether or not acceptable...

Genesis 4:10 (Right after Abel was murdered, and before the Great Flood)

The Lord said, "What have you done? Listen? Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. When you work the ground it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth". Cain said to the Lord, "My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me". But the Lord said to him, "Not so, if anyone kills Cain he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the Lord put a mark on Cain, so that no one who found him would kill him. So Cain went out from the Lord's presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden. Cain lay with his wife and she became pregnant, and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then builing a CITY and he named it after his son Enoch. To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech. Lamech married two women, one named Adah, and the other Zilah. Adah gave birth to Jabal. He was the father of those who lived in tents and raised livestock. His brother's name was Jubal. He was the father of all who played the Harp and flute. Zilah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze AND IRON...

I've noticed from a lot of your posts that you use biblical information to prove a point. Since biblical 'facts' are hugely debated and not really facts then they have no real point in these topics. In another thread about Ancient Egyptian races you used something about Noah's Ark to prove a point. Lets just keep it to known facts.

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Posted (edited)

So you seriously think this...

post-18246-0-34559900-1338522603_thumb.j

.... is some sort of trap.

.

Those look like two very ancient dolmens, one of which having a more recent addition (with repairs). And yes, trap may well be an apt description of the original 'strong boxes' purpose. Interesting that those 2 original dolmens have needed no such repairs, being so stout.

Nice photo.

Edited by lilthor

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...mankind experienced time and the elements in an altered ego system from that which we see today.

Yeah...I used to do that kind of stuff, but not so much anymore.

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Interesting photos there. Thanks for posting. They'd be the perfect hiding place for the hairy cryptid types which populate the whole world it seems. My guess is that they were built by humans as marks of respect for the cryptids and left for them to occupy if they so wished.

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Those look like two very ancient dolmens, one of which having a more recent addition (with repairs). And yes, trap may well be an apt description of the original 'strong boxes' purpose. Interesting that those 2 original dolmens have needed no such repairs, being so stout.

Nice photo.

Here is some more info on what those dolmens could have been used for:

Typically, the entrance of a Caucasian dolmen is always at the south-side (as with the Dutch Hunebeds).

==

(and a legend:)

'Adygei legend says that once upon a time there were giants in the Caucasus. they were kind and strong creatures, and as it often happens, there were small and spiteful people near them. they were sharp, cunning, whining and artful people who were driven away by their former neighbours for their meanness and treachery. the giants gave refuge and a part of their lands to them. They were so kind that they made stone houses for their guests and they carried them on their shoulders to the most beautiful and dry places, to the banks of rivers and lakes. Instead of doors they breached round holes through which little people went hunting on lop-eared hares. However the giants were repaid for their kindness. In order to tame the giants the little people blinded them and began to give them different herbs and because of it, the giants began to lose their minds and conflict with each other. Once the giants freed themselves from charms a war began, resulting in everyone's death with just the stone houses remaining'.

==

The Kolikho Disc:

The restoration of the "Kolikho" Dolmen from the Tuapse region, on the Black sea coast, Russia), was successfully completed in 2009. The dolmen was found by accident after the seasonal flood in 2008. It was buried beneath 3 m-thick river deposits and left untouched since the Bronze Age.

"It's not the largest dolmen, or the best-preserved, and certainly not the most beautiful," said Dr. Viktor Trifonov, a Bronze Age expert and the head of the restoration project. What makes this object unique, he said, is its status as "the first honestly acquired museum dolmen."..."These [monuments] were built to be part of the landscape," Trifonov said, "Ancient people would see them and understand — this is a tomb holding someone's remains, this is someone's territory. It's an entire language." (4)

The burial chamber was full of partly disarticulated human remains. All of them were put in the chamber through the hole in the façade slab. Radiocarbon dates of human remains (72 people) covers the period (approx.) between 1800 and 1300 B.C. with no signs of chronological gaps. In other word, the dolmen was in use for about 500 years. The grave goods were small and consist of pottery, a bronze javelin head, bronze spiral earrings, a bone belt buckle, a few stone flakes and a sandstone disk about the size of a dinner plate with signs on both sides.

On one side of the disk are “astral” symbols (an eight pointed star), on other side - marks along the rim of the disk. The last thing is absolutely unexpected find! It looks like sort of device, perhaps the Caucasan version of the Nebra disk. At present nothing more is known.

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/russiadolmen.htm

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The Adyghe people originate in the North Caucasus region and they are considered to be one of the most ancient nations in the world. The Adyghe people were of the largest and most eminent nations in the North Caucasus, and are considered to be the first known settlers in the Caucasus. The Caucasus was occupied by the Adyghe people as early as the Stone Age period and traces of them date back as far as 8000 BC. In about 4000 BC the Maykop culture existed in the North Caucasus region, which influenced all subsequent cultures in the North Caucasus region as well as other parts of the region which is now southern Russia. Archaeological findings, mainly of dolmens in North-West Caucasus region, indicate the existence of a megalithic culture in the region. The Adyghe kingdom was established in c. 400 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyghe_people

And here many links to online versions of the legends of these people:

The Northwest Caucasian (Circassian, Abkhaz-Abasin and Ubykh) versions are also highly valuable, because they are more archaic and preserve "all the odd details constituting the detritus of earlier traditions and beliefs", as opposed to the Ossetian ones, which have been "reworked to form a smooth narrative".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nart_saga

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Posted (edited)

This is a forum about history.

Please leave religious crap out of it, or else I will start quoting from Tolkien.

Religion is history or did you just have one too many last night, and seem to forget that. I made a clear point that I believe ancient man forged iron to make tools and that's the tools used to make the pyramids, temples, etc... Then I suggested these 'dolmen' to be the forges used to make that iron from the ore of the ground. THAT was debatable, so stick with topic and come off the attitude about regligion. If you don't like my posts just do the honorable thing and ignore it.

There are those who have lived a thousand lives on sands and shores of distant worlds in other realms and time... tww (almost a direct quote of Tolkien) Quote all you want big guy, as will I, if I up and feel like it.

Do unto others, as you would have others do unto you... (good example) Luke 6:31

Edited by Time Spy

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I've noticed from a lot of your posts that you use biblical information to prove a point. Since biblical 'facts' are hugely debated and not really facts then they have no real point in these topics. In another thread about Ancient Egyptian races you used something about Noah's Ark to prove a point. Lets just keep it to known facts.

What and some of these 'giant' legends and hobbit ideas are credible proof. Give me a break. The Bible is a written documentation of stories and legends from many ancient pasts. Believing it or accepting it for what it says is a personal right and opinion. It most certainly is every bit as much a speculative comparison to the mythical legends you and Abe seem to come up with, and much MORE debatable in depth, not that I am. This thread is speculating on an obvious UNKNOWN phenomena, so spare me the 'known facts' nonsense. I merely suggested an idea, and did no more than compare it to historical documentation. You just don't like it, well that's what debate is, right?

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Posted (edited)

Religion is history or did you just have one too many last night, and seem to forget that. I made a clear point that I believe ancient man forged iron to make tools and that's the tools used to make the pyramids, temples, etc... Then I suggested these 'dolmen' to be the forges used to make that iron from the ore of the ground. THAT was debatable, so stick with topic and come off the attitude about regligion. If you don't like my posts just do the honorable thing and ignore it.

There are those who have lived a thousand lives on sands and shores of distant worlds of other realms and time... tww (almost a direct quote of Tolkien) Quote all you want big guy, as will I, if I up and feel like it.

Do unto others, as you would have others do unto you... (good example) Luke 6:31

Religion is part of man's historical need to create answers for things not understood, part of man's need to control others, and part of man's need to be a member of a similar thinking group of people.

The Bible or the Qur'an are no history books: they were created to convey some ideological message.

And as we all know, as soon as idiology shows up, facts go out of the window.

+++

EDIT:

Another thing: if I post something skeptical in a religion/belief oriented forum here, my post will be moved to another forum, or it will be edited.

If some religious person posts a tome here, we all must listen and be respectful.

And then we have to read drivel about why God/Allah/Joe Hovey said this and that, and that science is made up by a bunch of lying s.o.a.b.s who oppose 'the true word of God'.

It's the 21st century now, and after 2000 years of religious indoctrination I think I am allowed to say: enough of it.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I don't think there are any hobbits in the Bible.

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