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Babe Ruth

Bradley Manning Trial

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You have far more faith in the US military justice system than I do, and I have participated in it many many years ago.

Similar to its civilian counterpart, the UCMJ does not provide much justice at all. It provides a legal framework in which the chain of command has a sledgehammer with which to knock uncooperative soldiers over the head.

There is more justice delivered on any given Sunday by NFL umpires and referees than there is by most american courts and the UCMJ.

Many acted out of conscience, and that is on the record. He exposed the war crimes of the US government, and THAT is why he has been held all this time under torturous conditions. Like Daniel Ellsberg before him, he exposed government crimes, and by his actions is a patriot and hero.

Do you consider yourself a criminal? As a soldier in the vietnam era, surely you consider yourself to be an aide to illegal military action of some sort... You contend that everything about the government is illegal, thus you have been an aide to that since the day you enlisted. TURN YOURSELF IN BEFORE ITS TO LATE! :unsure2:

Edited by Dredimus

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You have far more faith in the US military justice system than I do, and I have participated in it many many years ago.

Similar to its civilian counterpart, the UCMJ does not provide much justice at all. It provides a legal framework in which the chain of command has a sledgehammer with which to knock uncooperative soldiers over the head.

There is more justice delivered on any given Sunday by NFL umpires and referees than there is by most american courts and the UCMJ.

Many acted out of conscience, and that is on the record. He exposed the war crimes of the US government, and THAT is why he has been held all this time under torturous conditions. Like Daniel Ellsberg before him, he exposed government crimes, and by his actions is a patriot and hero.

Never mind the fact that he endangered the lives of coalition forces as well as afghani / taliban informants.

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Do you consider yourself a criminal? As a soldier in the vietnam era, surely you consider yourself to be an aide to illegal military action of some sort... You contend that everything about the government is illegal, thus you have been an aide to that since the day you enlisted. TURN YOURSELF IN BEFORE ITS TO LATE! :unsure2:

Your point is valid, but my conscience is clear regarding war crimes during my tour in Vietnam because I was a medic. We flew unarmed missions with the red cross painted on the ship to comply with Geneva Conventions. I never killed anybody in my life.

But your point is way valid. Technically speaking, my several old friends who flew USN and USAF aircraft into the North to bomb and strafe civilian sites were in violation of international law.

I do NOT contend that everything about the government is illegal, but there is no doubt that our military interventions in my life time have been brought under fraud, and Bradley Manning exposed the latest generation of government lies and crimes.

Your claim that he exposed Afghan or Iraqi informants is contradicted by the public statements of Robert Gates, at the time the SecDef. Get a grip Dred, you're having to defend government crimes and lies, and that's not a good position to be in. :innocent:

Edited by Babe Ruth
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Your point is valid, but my conscience is clear regarding war crimes during my tour in Vietnam because I was a medic. We flew unarmed missions with the red cross painted on the ship to comply with Geneva Conventions. I never killed anybody in my life.

But your point is way valid. Technically speaking, my several old friends who flew USN and USAF aircraft into the North to bomb and strafe civilian sites were in violation of international law.

I do NOT contend that everything about the government is illegal, but there is no doubt that our military interventions in my life time have been brought under fraud, and Bradley Manning exposed the latest generation of government lies and crimes.

Your claim that he exposed Afghan or Iraqi informants is contradicted by the public statements of Robert Gates, at the time the SecDef. Get a grip Dred, you're having to defend government crimes and lies, and that's not a good position to be in. :innocent:

I want you to source and show me where Robert Gates ever said that people were not put into harms way over this...

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He didnt break the law, In fact the law should have protected him under the whistle blowers law. I personaly think his bravery in exposing tyranny was heroic.

Whistleblower law does not apply in this case, because he did not try to hand the documents over to a representative of the US government. He handed them over to a foriegn national.

Manning =/= Whistleblower

Manning == Military Criminal

Thats unless that information its self was in violation of the law. And clearly, it was.

That would be true if it could be proven that all those documents had been read by Manning and he considered them dangerous. Unfortunately, since there were over 750,000 documents, and each would take a couple minutes to digest as to if it was dangerous or criminal, he would have needed over 400 days of constant reading during his On Duty time to read all of them, and that is plainly impossible for him to have accomplished.

So he gave unread documents to a foriegn national.

Similar to its civilian counterpart, the UCMJ does not provide much justice at all. It provides a legal framework in which the chain of command has a sledgehammer with which to knock uncooperative soldiers over the head.

Except 99.999% of all soldiers have no issues with UCMJ. I surely never did. The only ones that I did know who had issues were drug users and wife beaters.

Personnally I'd encourage anyone with Authority issues not to go into the military, unless you Want that to be broken out of you. Harsh treatment is what the military offers and what people sign up for when they put their sig on those enlistment papers.

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Whistleblower law does not apply in this case, because he did not try to hand the documents over to a representative of the US government. He handed them over to a foriegn national.

Manning =/= Whistleblower

Manning == Military Criminal

That would be true if it could be proven that all those documents had been read by Manning and he considered them dangerous. Unfortunately, since there were over 750,000 documents, and each would take a couple minutes to digest as to if it was dangerous or criminal, he would have needed over 400 days of constant reading during his On Duty time to read all of them, and that is plainly impossible for him to have accomplished.

So he gave unread documents to a foriegn national.

Except 99.999% of all soldiers have no issues with UCMJ. I surely never did. The only ones that I did know who had issues were drug users and wife beaters.

Personnally I'd encourage anyone with Authority issues not to go into the military, unless you Want that to be broken out of you. Harsh treatment is what the military offers and what people sign up for when they put their sig on those enlistment papers.

But he gave them up to a foreign national for a good cause! He felt that it was illegal for the army to put themselves above the law and try to cover up a mistaken killing of "civilians". So instead he placed himself above the law - perfectly reasonable. And I'm sure he NEVER expected to be praised by a group he respected on the left. Now they deify him but it doesn't make the time easier to spend in a cell. HE WORE THE UNIFORM. He lied and stole secrets. Forget him as far as I'm concerned.
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But he gave them up to a foreign national for a good cause! He felt that it was illegal for the army to put themselves above the law and try to cover up a mistaken killing of "civilians". So instead he placed himself above the law - perfectly reasonable. And I'm sure he NEVER expected to be praised by a group he respected on the left. Now they deify him but it doesn't make the time easier to spend in a cell. HE WORE THE UNIFORM. He lied and stole secrets. Forget him as far as I'm concerned.

Exposing a government that lies to you is a bad thing these days? War crimes committed by anyone else is an atrocity or even violating human rights. Yet the USA seems completely void of punishment. People still stand by the government loyally. No one bats an eyelid but are up in arms when another country breaches the code.

Have we really regressed to such a point where we don't have the guts to say what our government doing is wrong? Instead of continue such hipocracy?

Not a single crime exposed by manning is justified. The wars aren't even justified yet people still jump on the bandwagon.

Look at what the Iraq/Afghan war has done to our world. Our laws have changed to increase control over the populace. Innocent civilians died. Our freedoms have become more constricted. It contributed to the gfc and is responsible for a lot of the debt in the USA. Increased segregation between different races and religions. I emplore anyone to bring out one positive of this whole thing.

None of this fear mongerig terrorist talk or non existent WMD drivel.

War used to be the forefront in innovation and technological advancements. But we have shown not to need it anymore. There is no place for it in this day and age.

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Congressional Record, March 9, 1998

Not only that, but I highly doubt that this PFC (reduced in rank for other reasons before all of this came out) had "need to know" access to any of the files that he went through, read and released. All in all, Bradley "Breanna" Manning knew exactly what he was doing, he knew that what he was doing was wrong and he wanted a way out of the military. He enlisted (on his own mind you) and decided he didnt like it. He had a long list of behavioral issues and he was not happy being in the service. All the evidence played out in reality suggest that he did what he did in order to hurt the United States Military and Intel community. It Worked.

Wow yea, I guess you are right. He wasnt covered under the law. Funny, the people who actualy have a whistle to blow, are gagged. He knew he might end up in prison for what he did, knew he might go to jail for the rest of his life, so I seriously doubt it was a sceme to get outta the military.

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What really sad is how people want to hang Manning, but give the government a pass for illegaly starting a war killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Its litteraly amazing

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But he gave them up to a foreign national for a good cause! He felt that it was illegal for the army to put themselves above the law and try to cover up a mistaken killing of "civilians". So instead he placed himself above the law - perfectly reasonable. And I'm sure he NEVER expected to be praised by a group he respected on the left. Now they deify him but it doesn't make the time easier to spend in a cell. HE WORE THE UNIFORM. He lied and stole secrets. Forget him as far as I'm concerned.

So you must also think that GWB should be on death row for starting a war without congressional aproval and killing all those folks in Afgan, Iraq, and Ltbia right? All based of total admitted lies no less.

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But he gave them up to a foreign national for a good cause! He felt that it was illegal for the army to put themselves above the law and try to cover up a mistaken killing of "civilians". So instead he placed himself above the law - perfectly reasonable. And I'm sure he NEVER expected to be praised by a group he respected on the left. Now they deify him but it doesn't make the time easier to spend in a cell. HE WORE THE UNIFORM. He lied and stole secrets. Forget him as far as I'm concerned.

Maybe he can be the "Partisan Saint of Enormusely Stupid Actions for the Right Reasons"?? (Partisan saint... get it.... instead of Patron saint...)

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Exposing a government that lies to you is a bad thing these days?

....

Not a single crime exposed by manning is justified. The wars aren't even justified yet people still jump on the bandwagon.

I certainly would say that a government that lies to us is a bad thing, and that wars are a bad thing. But, I'm not going to let Manning off the hook because he knowingly, or unknowingly, pointed out a couple military crimes. Is the man that murders a murderer any less a murderer? Manning stole from the government and he should pay for that.

I don't know about most people here on UM, but I've been against the last Iraq War since day one. And I've been against the Afghanistan War for a couple years now. I respect and value our soldiers and I thank them for going there when ordered, but I never saw a good reason to go into Iraq and I don't think we should be still in Afghanistan.

Your broad accusation that people are warmongers just because they are Conservative is almost as bad as racism or other discrimination. You are putting statements into other peoples mouths.

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What really sad is how people want to hang Manning, but give the government a pass for illegaly starting a war killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Its litteraly amazing

From what I've read there were about 150,000 CASUALTIES in the Iraq War, which is different from Fatalitys. I'd guess (Based on similar wounded to dead counts from Afghanistan) that about one third of those casualties were killed. So maybe 50,000 dead (many of those being soldiers??).

Afghanistan is a little harder to follow. But the death cound is supposed to be around 10,000 civilians for the last 6 years. With there being at least 20,000 in the first year, so with some guessing that would be about 40,000 to 50,000.

So total that is 100,000 dead. All of which could have been prevented by their respective governments if they had simply yielded to inspections and handing over Al'Quida. Those governments chose to go to war by not cooperating. It was not a quick process, they had time to think. Those people died due to their own stubborn governments. And I feel sorry for them, because those wars should have never happened (particularly the Iraq War).

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But what he did was break the law.

allegedly.

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Just the commonly known evidence is enough to convict.

no it's not. That's not how our justice system works.

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He committed a crime.

allegedly

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Never mind the fact that he endangered the lives of coalition forces as well as afghani / taliban informants.

unproven and wild speculation.

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allegedly.

he admits to taking documents and givig them to Assange.

and that was illegal.

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he admits to taking documents and givig them to Assange.

and that was illegal.

the government tortured him for two years afterward. That is illegal as well. Not to mention the content of the cables.

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I certainly would say that a government that lies to us is a bad thing, and that wars are a bad thing. But, I'm not going to let Manning off the hook because he knowingly, or unknowingly, pointed out a couple military crimes. Is the man that murders a murderer any less a murderer? Manning stole from the government and he should pay for that.

I don't know about most people here on UM, but I've been against the last Iraq War since day one. And I've been against the Afghanistan War for a couple years now. I respect and value our soldiers and I thank them for going there when ordered, but I never saw a good reason to go into Iraq and I don't think we should be still in Afghanistan.

Your broad accusation that people are warmongers just because they are Conservative is almost as bad as racism or other discrimination. You are putting statements into other peoples mouths.

The thing is, should we be privy to such information on war crimes?

Our law is so flawed and bent towards government and big corporations these days I don't give it an ounce of ligitimacy. Just because a secret print is stamped on some government document does that really mean we don't have the right to know?

War crimes were committed and hidden away. Is it right to do that? Nope. How else would justice be dealt if all bad things that happen are tucked away in a vault somewhere?

I was implying those who do perform that, not everyone or every conservative in general.

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the government tortured him for two years afterward. That is illegal as well. Not to mention the content of the cables.

well quite.

If I murder a murderer I'm still guilty of murder.

What the US government did to him is abhorrent though, more things should be said about that, it's telling that the usual suspects have all gone "meh, he deserved it because he's a traitor" when they're told "your government tortured a US citizen".

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well quite.

If I murder a murderer I'm still guilty of murder.

What the US government did to him is abhorrent though, more things should be said about that, it's telling that the usual suspects have all gone "meh, he deserved it because he's a traitor" when they're told "your government tortured a US citizen".

To my knowledge the only thing done to him was to keep him isolated and dressed in such a way that he could not take his own life. Mentally I'm sure it was tough but allowing him to die from suicide would have been a more grievous wrong to allow. He hasn't been beaten, water boarded or otherwise REALLY tortured. But we have a different standard of what that means in this kinder gentler age of war, don't we? If an American is doing the interrogation then even speaking crossly can be considered torture by the world - whatever....

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because not being alowed to sleep or having your natural day/night cycle constantly abused isn't torture because there's no blood drawn and not "brought to the door of death" going on.

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From what I've read there were about 150,000 CASUALTIES in the Iraq War, which is different from Fatalitys. I'd guess (Based on similar wounded to dead counts from Afghanistan) that about one third of those casualties were killed. So maybe 50,000 dead (many of those being soldiers??).

From what I read there were about 1 million MURDERS in the Iraq war. And after watching us litteraly level cities night and day live on TV, Im far more inclinded to believe a million is closer to the truth. 1 death without a declaration from congress makes GWB a war criminal. The amount of innocent blood on his hands makes Manning look like a saint in comparison.

All of which could have been prevented by their respective governments if they had simply yielded to inspections and handing over Al'Quida. Those governments chose to go to war by not cooperating. It was not a quick process, they had time to think. Those people died due to their own stubborn governments. And I feel sorry for them, because those wars should have never happened (particularly the Iraq War).

Yes, It also could have been avoided if our leaders were bound by the rule of law, and if folks like yourself didnt make excuses for them and demanded justice. So lets not pretend that Manning is some kinda horrible war criminal, if you wont hold others who have done FAR worse to the same standard.

Edited by preacherman76
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because not being alowed to sleep or having your natural day/night cycle constantly abused isn't torture because there's no blood drawn and not "brought to the door of death" going on.

He is a christian, and as we saw from the Inquisition, to them it ain't torture unless blood is let or physical pain inflicted.

They don't see sleep deprivation or being made to stand naked as being harmful, as long as it is not done to themselves.

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