Obamacare

[RavenHawk]

This subject was taking over another thread (http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=227608&st=0) so I thought to split it off into its own thread. I guess I like seeing liberals fall all over themselves trying to rationalize this law. It's disturbing and laughable at the same time. But I’m sure we’ll be discussing the outcome sooner or later.

[RavenHawk]

Maybe not, since the "bill" has long been voted into LAW.

So when did you finally realize that? Here’s another fact. 26 of 50 states (57 for you) filed suit on the Constitutionality of said law. The Supreme Court will reveal their decision later this month as to whether this law is Constitutional.

BTW, your reply is in no way a meaningful comment on what I said: “I don’t know where either …Maybe by studying the various versions of the bill in the first place, I can discern for myself what it says.” I was talking of content, not status. Is this what one is to expect from your debate style? Is this the best counter to be expected?

[RavenHawk]

what does Europe have to do with the ACA? It is not the same damn thing. For instance, in the UK there is a national health service. Nationalized healthcare. That is NOT what the ACA is about. So again you are incorrect and comparing apples and oranges.

It is what we pattern Obamacare after. Yes, ACA was/ is to be nationalized healthcare. If it passes the Supreme Court, the next step would be to re-enact the single payer portion back into the law. This is how bureaucracy works. This is what the people need to be vigilant about.

it does no such thing. Where do you get this? that is not in the ACA.

This is what bureaucracy at this level does. It’s not so much as it being in “this” section or “that” section as it is how it will function. Patient and doctor can’t agree on the treatment that is required if it is not covered under the basic plans (QHBP). The patient will have to take a less effective solution or pay fines. Eventually, it’ll just be automated, where you get in line for a drug (common), then get in line for another drug to counter the side effects of the first drug you took, etc., etc. No one tries to heal you, just keep you permanently addicted to drugs. We’ll have a shortage of doctors so instead of healing just medicate. This is what bureaucracy does.

yes it is worth it. And your faith based charities are have not been working out.

No, this level of Bureaucracy is not worth it and never will. It is not the government’s place to pass out Entitlements. It is the place of the government to protect us and *PROMOTE* the general welfare. That function has nothing to do with dole. But you are so inclined to believe that the government should run your life.

They have done better and they could do better if the Dems wouldn’t attack them. The Dems don’t have to control everything. They don’t have to have their fingers in everything. That’s not what they are elected to do. Let go.

it does no such thing. Where DO YOU GET THIS misinformation?!!

That comment tells me all I need to know, really. That you don’t know where this information comes from. All you have to do is read. Start reading (HR4872) Division I Subdivision A Title I subtitle C (sections 121 – 124) & Division I Subdivision A Title II subtitle A Section 203. It jumps around and at every jump it adds another level of control on every aspect of coverage. When you do that, you take control out of the hands of the doctor and patient. Dems want everyone covered but most Congressmen are lawyers, not doctors. The bad things about HMOs are just being taken over by the government and expanded on.

No it's not. They don't have preexisting conditions. Some at least, are young people who cannot afford health insurance. They are the future of our society.

You misunderstand. In a previous post I categorized the uninsured into three groups and in quick order, removed two from the equation. Group one, the rich which constitute the greatest investment in this nation. They do not require insurance. Group two are the youth that can’t afford it but at the same time don’t need it. Or less likely to need it. The youth have such an attitude that nothing can harm them (that they are going to live forever) and perhaps they are right considering the gamble-like nature of insurance. To truly invest in them is to invest in that attitude. That’s the attitude that builds a nation and not gambling with insurance.

What’s left are those with pre-existing conditions that are too expensive to cover. These are those that are too poor, too old, and too sick. Certainly the dregs of our society, but they are also Americans. They are family. Too many liberals would rather institutionalize them so as to make it easier to dispose of them, but call it caring end-of-life counseling. How insidious making those that you want to get rid of, make the choice so that one’s hands are clean.

There has to be better ways to care for them than this monstrosity of a law. Because it really boils down to not denying them the care they need. But is that what Obamacare is really for? Obamacare can’t meet their needs. This is another one of those things making us all pay for the circumstances of a few, instead of easing their pain. The standard liberal MO. This is a nation of equal opportunity, not equal outcome. If it were a nation of equal outcome, then all would be equally poor. Obamacare is the mindset of equal outcome.

again, that's not the intent, in the law, or anything like that.

Well, you may not consider it the intent but that’s exactly how bureaucracy gets translated into reality.

It's like all the information you've gotten comes from talk radio.

I don’t know if it does or not?? I’ll assume they read the law too? If talk radio is following my lead then maybe I should listen to it more often. And maybe you should too. Sounds like it’s a good cure to the koolaid.

[RavenHawk]

They generally don't read bills. They have staff to read and analyze it for them. And then consider the implications.

Their staff aren’t the ones elected. The staff aren’t held to protecting this nation. For such a major bill, all of Congress should have read it and spent 6 months mulling over the implications. That’s why we elected them. Oh but it had to be voted on right away. Even the few town hall presentations were railroaded through. In time of recession, this should have been the last bill to have been passed. Cut spending and create jobs is far more important. Very suspicious.

you made the claim, prove it.

Yes I did. Although, I’ve already spent too much time going through my archives, I did find this: http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/1109/GOP_wrote_5_of_10_longest_bills.html. This is a hit on Republicans but what they don’t realize is that none of those bills should have become laws. I haven’t checked to see which ones have. Although two of them (National Defense Authorization Act & Consolidated Appropriations Resolution) are what Congress is suppose to deal with. The bottom line is that it is the largest bill – at least in the past decade. It’s still probably a good candidate for the largest. This is not the function of government in our society. This law is an insult to all Americans. I think that even the liberal Justices know that.

On a side note, if Obamacare is written in standard book format, it would be only 209 pages (if the other bills where written in the same format, it would still be the longest). If that’s the case, then why couldn’t the Dems in Congress have read it for themselves? But to be fair, it jumps around a lot especially for the important parts. It’s hard to keep track of where you are. But this alone sets off red flags.

pure politics. The republicans didn't care one whit about the public.

Of course it has been pure politics. The GOP has been fighting the socialist elements in this government. The GOP is the only party to care about the public. They know better than to treat the American Public as if they needed to be nannied. The American People don’t need to be cared for by the government but left alone.

I've posted it here on UM many times. Any real reform would result in one tenth of one percent of what we spend on healthcare. It's just not significant.

I don’t know where you’re getting your info from, but malpractice insurance is going through the roof causing a lot of doctors to get out of the business. Try googling “Malpractice costs driving doctors out”, “will obamacare regulate what doctors make” and other like questions. It just goes on and on, piling up. You’ll find the occasional article that tries to show Obamacare in a good light or more interesting – oh it’s not that bad. Yes it is. Only those that are asleep will think it’s not all that bad. If it chases off doctors, it doesn’t matter what the percentage it.

For now, there are still more new doctors coming in than those leaving, but that will change. There are sites stating the claims in Obamacare and then giving the facts. There’s a current poll out showing that doctors are not concerned that Obamacare will make major immediate changes but in time there will be. It’s clear that those that favor Obamacare are enamored with the intent of the law. But those that dare dig deeper to see how it’ll work know the truth about it.

funny. And wrong. My nephew just became a doctor. There are plenty of students.

Medical students have huge student loans that need to be paid off. They won’t be able to do that under Obamacare. What they charge will be regulated. Perspective new students get in because that is where the money is. That’s where you’ll find the quality doctors. If you cut into their profit margin, they aren’t going to go to school and incur such debt. I have a Polish friend who works as a nurse in Ukraine. She tells me that doctors get $200 a month under their healthcare program. What student here is going to find the incentive to become a doctor?

better than supporting witch doctors, faith healing, medieval and ancient medicine.

And that’s the reason Obamacare will not work. There is a rise in auto immune diseases that clinical quantitative medicine cannot deal with. People spend a lifetime in misery because what ails them cannot be measured. Most modern medicine sees these people as cuckoo – it’s all in their head. As far as modern medicine is concerned, these diseases do not exist. Autism is one of these (that obviously exists) and they keep revising the diagnosis because they have no measuring stick. Between obesity and toxins in our environment, we are heading for a crisis that Obamacare cannot deal with. Chiropractic, Acupuncture, Kinesiology, Chinese Medicine, Diet, Prayer, and other non traditional medicines actually address these unmeasurable quantities and heal the body. But these things aren’t even covered under Grade A or B preventative care. The whole realm of healing (clinical quantitative sciences *AND* ancient folksy knowledge) needs to reform and merge before imposing a monster of a law onto it. Bureaucrats do not understand this and they think all they need is to produce enough boilerplates and everything will be alright. This is a recipe to disaster.

No it is complete and utter BS. I would say more but this is a family station.

If it is utter BS, then how come no one can counter it? If it was BS, then it would have gone away. Yeah, what would you say? Between Frank and Obama, you don’t have much of a leg to stand on.

[+OverSword]

You are having a nice discussion with yourself.

In answer to the thread title, will Obamacare be shot down this month, did you know that by the year 2020 one in five dollars in the US economy is projected to be a healthcare dollar? So what do you think, the government is going to give up running the healthcare industry? not a chance.

[+DieChecker]

So when did you finally realize that? Here's another fact. 26 of 50 states (57 for you) filed suit on the Constitutionality of said law. The Supreme Court will reveal their decision later this month as to whether this law is Constitutional.

BTW, your reply is in no way a meaningful comment on what I said: "I don't know where either …Maybe by studying the various versions of the bill in the first place, I can discern for myself what it says." I was talking of content, not status. Is this what one is to expect from your debate style? Is this the best counter to be expected?

I see you are discussing this with Ninjadude. He is not going to come around. It is like talking to Biden, a true and brainwashed Liberal Democrat.

Perhaps he'll tell you that those 26 are "Red" states and thus are "known" to be ignorant and probably also "known" to be Conservative.... Shudder!

To a democrat calling someone a Conservative is like using the N-word, it should be highly insulting and demand an angry reponse, and they can't understand why conservative people will just look at them and smile and say "Thank you".

Perhaps, since those red states are so ignorant they should be ignored and only the enlightened New England Blue States should provide all the national rules and laws.

Personnally I hope and pray (yes pray), that the whole thing gets thrown out. It would force the issue so that the more popular parts could be initiatied individually while the idiot parts can be tossed out. I feel it was a big pork-fest when so much legislation was pushed into one bill. I think individual bills where the freaking Representatives can read it and vote on it for one piece at a time is the way to go. Why should I have to work 40 hours per week, when our representitives only have to sit down and vote every once in a great while? I say they should be near to shackled to their voting chair and forced to read the bills and forced to vote 3 or 4 times a day. Is 2 hours enough time to read 20 pages and confrance with your fellows by computer or Skype? It definately is.

[Wickian]

I remember reading an article where a few judges were hinting that the real debate is whether to throw out only the individual mandate(crippling the existing bill) or to make them rewrite the whole bill and throw out the entire thing.

Not sure how accurate that statement was.

[Tiggs]

Truth be told - the Republicans want to destroy the power of the Federal Government.

The Healthcare reforms could be the best in the world. They could be the worst.

Republicans will fight to rip it to pieces, either way.

[F3SS]

With Scott Walker trouncing unions tonight and Obamacare getting shot down (my call btw) and even considering the 2010 mid term elections this is looking bad for the D's!

[Dergottheit]

To a democrat calling someone a Conservative is like using the N-word, it should be highly insulting and demand an angry reponse, and they can't understand why conservative people will just look at them and smile and say "Thank you".

And the way you go about talking about liberals and Democrats makes it known you also like to think it's somehow hurtful or offensive. It's not. (Keep telling yourself you DON'T use it in the way I describe, your posts speak for themselves.)

Back on topic, whatever the Supreme Court rules will not likely be the end of the matter, whether they uphold it or not.

[Dergottheit]

With Scott Walker trouncing unions tonight and Obamacare getting shot down (my call btw) and even considering the 2010 mid term elections this is looking bad for the D's!

Once your "R's" are in power, the people will want Democrat's back again in a few years. You'd be foolish not to realize this is how it goes, people get sick of all those in office, it's not just a Democrat thing.

[+DieChecker]

And the way you go about talking about liberals and Democrats makes it known you also like to think it's somehow hurtful or offensive. It's not. (Keep telling yourself you DON'T use it in the way I describe, your posts speak for themselves.)

I appologize for my very vague definitions. I should have added some adjuctives to specifically refer to the rabid, blinded by anger and hate, far left of the democrat party. That Ninjadude only edges towards but does not quite reach.

Edited June 6, 2012 by DieChecker

[+DieChecker]

Back on topic, whatever the Supreme Court rules will not likely be the end of the matter, whether they uphold it or not.

It is the same thing everyone always says. "If the Republicans get into power, they'll overturn Roe v Wade". That is ignorant propoganda also, but highly effective. Look at all the Planned Parenthood people on the TV News, protesting how their sexual healthcare is going to be taken away.

[+DieChecker]

With Scott Walker trouncing unions tonight and Obamacare getting shot down (my call btw) and even considering the 2010 mid term elections this is looking bad for the D's!

I believe even the more Liberal news sources say that unless the Economy picks up markedly, and gas prices drop, and Unemployment also drops, that Obama is in for a real run for his money. The Conservative media is saying basically that the economy is not going to improve and that Romney is getting close to having it, "in the bag:".

[Tiggs]

It is the same thing everyone always says. "If the Republicans get into power, they'll overturn Roe v Wade". That is ignorant propoganda also, but highly effective.

Do you know what makes it really effective?

Getting your candidate to appear on TV and say things like: " but I would love the Supreme Court to say, "Let's send this back to the states," rather than having a federal mandate through Roe v. Wade, let the states again consider this issue state by state rather than having this-- the setting that we have now with a federal mandate being imposed in all the states.”

Or having your candidate issuing statements such as: "Today marks the 39th anniversary of one of the darkest moments in Supreme Court history, when the court in Roe v. Wade claimed authority over the fundamental question regarding the rights of the unborn. The result is millions of lives since that day have been tragically silenced. Since that day, the pro-life movement has been working tirelessly in an effort to change hearts and minds and protect the weakest and most vulnerable among us. Today, we recommit ourselves to reversing that decision, for in the quiet of conscience, people of both political parties know that more than a million abortions a year cannot be squared with the good heart of America."

Or having your candidate appoint Robert Bork - who holds the record for having the biggest margin by which the Senate has ever rejected a Supreme Court nominee due to his desire to repeal Roe vs Wade - as the Chairperson of his Justice Advisory Committee.

Because - apparently - It's a lot easier to believe that someone is working to overturn Roe vs Wade when they keep saying that that's exactly what they're doing.

Especially if they happen to be campaigning for a job which includes being the sole person able to nominate Judges to the Supreme Court.

[grendille]

Truth be told - the Republicans want to destroy the power of the Federal Government.

The Healthcare reforms could be the best in the world. They could be the worst.

Republicans will fight to rip it to pieces, either way.

Ummmm, thats because the government is NOT meant be all powerful. Thats what our constitution is for.

[Babe Ruth]

Dennis Kucinich was correct--the bill in question was an abomination. And the law it has become is also an abomination.

Meant to satisfy the uninformed masses and feather the nest of the health insurance industry, only in those regards has it succeeded.

[Render]

Remember this?

Countdown: GOPer Bill Kristol Say's Americans Don't Deserve Good Health Care 7-28-09

[media=]

[/media] Edited June 6, 2012 by Render

[Tiggs]

Ummmm, thats because the government is NOT meant be all powerful. Thats what our constitution is for.

Oh, please.

There's no difference financially between being fined for not buying product x and having your tax increased by the same amount as the fine with a tax rebate if you've bought product x.

The screams of unconstitutionality are uniquely Republican, and would have happened regardless of the way that the law was implemented. See above.

[RavenHawk]

Remember this?

Countdown: GOPer Bill Kristol Say's Americans Don't Deserve Good Health Care 7-28-09

No, I don’t remember it. I don’t usually watch Steward. But it is very disingenuous on Stewart’s part (that’s why I don’t usually watch). Kristol was clearly not saying what Stewart was representing. How many liberals quaffed this hook, line, and sinker?

I don’t think people understand what it means to serve your country. When you sign up, quite bluntly, your ar$e belongs to the government. You *ARE* Government Issue – PERIOD. In one way, you become very vulnerable by giving up certain rights while in service to this nation and a grateful people. The government is responsible for you. Because you give your all in service (and in some cases the last full measure), you deserve the best that can be obtained. The difference being that the government can provide for about 2 million servicemen. Providing for 300 million is a different story. The government does not own the people. The proper place for government over the people is very limited. The government is in existence to protect the people, not control them. Obamacare is an undesirable control.

If we want the best healthcare in the world then it needs to be controlled by the free market, where the consumer drives the need. The government has no right to tell a company what bonuses it pays its CEOs, but the government could impose that bonuses be based on merit. Having insurance companies open their books for public inspection, combined with interstate competition could be a beneficial control. Information is power and by putting the power into the hands of the people (to make consumer choices) is better than all power being in the hands of the government. In general, the people are quite capable of looking after themselves, even though the government doesn’t give us much credit. Instead of forcing everyone to be covered, only those that want to be covered are and those that are uncoverable, we could setup load-balancing so that no one insurer gets an unfair burden. Throw in tort reform and you end up with a lean machine, that’ll kick butt in the world. And there will be minimal government involvement.

[Render]

If we want the best healthcare in the world then it needs to be controlled by the free market, where the consumer drives the need.

I think you suffer from a problem several Americans seem to have :

Arrogant blindness

Im sorry to bust your bubble but America is far from being the best healthcare.

World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems

1 France

2 Italy

3 San Marino

4 Andorra

5 Malta

6 Singapore

7 Spain

8 Oman

9 Austria

10 Japan

11 Norway

12 Portugal

13 Monaco

14 Greece

15 Iceland

16 Luxembourg

17 Netherlands

18 United Kingdom

19 Ireland

20 Switzerland

21 Belgium

22 Colombia

23 Sweden

24 Cyprus

25 Germany

26 Saudi Arabia

27 United Arab Emirates

28 Israel

29 Morocco

30 Canada

31 Finland

32 Australia

33 Chile

34 Denmark

35 Dominica

36 Costa Rica

37 USA

And yes, most places that outbest the USA have a social healthcare system.

[RavenHawk]

I see you are discussing this with Ninjadude. He is not going to come around. It is like talking to Biden, a true and brainwashed Liberal Democrat.

I know that. It’s easy to spot their kind. That’s why I split off into its own thread. It’s not a matter of him coming around but getting it on the record. It may be too early to expect a reply from him but usually, when I start pulling from the law itself, their talking points can't stand up to chapter and verse. Liberals don’t understand that the talking points they are fed on how Obamacare will do this, that, and the other thing, is just so much talk and when you get down to the nuts & bolts of bureaucracy they look like a deer in the headlights. In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

Perhaps he'll tell you that those 26 are "Red" states and thus are "known" to be ignorant and probably also "known" to be Conservative.... Shudder!

Well, I’ve got the list in front of me. I can’t say they are all Red, but they are sure spread out.

To a democrat calling someone a Conservative is like using the N-word, it should be highly insulting and demand an angry reponse, and they can't understand why conservative people will just look at them and smile and say "Thank you".

HA! That is probably very true.

[RavenHawk]

I think you suffer from a problem several Americans seem to have :

Arrogant blindness

Im sorry to bust your bubble but America is far from being the best healthcare.

World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems

You suffer from not understanding. You’re telling me what we have. I’m telling you what we need. Right now, we do not have a truly free market healthcare system. It has too much Socialist and government controls in it. If we can divert our path away from that of Europe, your list will change dramatically. The EU cannot continue on without austerity and Greece & France voted that down.

[Tiggs]

It's easy to spot their kind.

Would you like a side-serving of supremacy with that?

[+DieChecker]

I think you suffer from a problem several Americans seem to have :

Arrogant blindness

Im sorry to bust your bubble but America is far from being the best healthcare.

World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems

1 France

2 Italy

3 San Marino

....

37 USA

And yes, most places that outbest the USA have a social healthcare system.

You better attach a link to that, so that what the metric is can be debated. If it is based off cost, that does not really feed into "Best". If it is patients per health care worker, or based on time to wait on service, then you might have a valid point.

I think the other point to be made is that Federal healthcare would work so well, because just look at how super excellent our public school system is... super well funded, super good test results, best student output in the world, zero dropouts.... Wait, none of that is not true. Well, maybe using public schools was a bad (Or a perfect?) example.

Edited June 6, 2012 by DieChecker