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zoser

Tantalising Testimony

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Yes Sagan new a lot more.

I had a friend years ago who spent some time working with him and he claimed that Sagan's personal belief and knowledge was different from what he portrayed publicly because he was funded heavily by acedemia...that's the case for many scientists. That is Universities and private/government research groups etc. Since his views were widely accepted by the public, he had to be damn careful what he said or he could lose his funding by losing his credibility. To be on the safe side he took the firm stance of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".

Some have claimed over the years that this made him a paid disinformationist. Not at all true. He was a scientist trying to earn a living and had to protect his income.

By saying "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof", he was indirectly inferring ...."go get the proof, it's out there somewhere".

His great novel "Contact" details a scenerio in which we make contact via interdimensional means. Although it was published as fiction, it wasn't far off from Sagan's beliefs.

I wish he'd have been a bit clearer, if he did. I never really got what the ending of Contact was all about. Did they meet the Aliens or not?

Edited by 747400

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Incidentally, I see you've got the festive seasonal avatar up again already, Boon. It always makes me feel all warm & cozy when i see that ol' noose swinging in the snow. :santa:

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I wish he'd have been a bit clearer, if he did. I never really got what the ending of Contact was all about. Did they meet the Aliens or not?

I bet you they did, more than once, but maybe not exactly the way the movies have portrayed it.

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Bizarre Craft Hit Soldiers With Debilitating Light Beam

Courtesy John Timmerman, J. Allen Hynek Center For UFO Studies

Courtesy CNI News

This text is an edited transcript of an interview between Mr. Francis P. Wall, a private first class (PFC) in the U.S. Army during the Korean War, and John Timmerman, an associate of the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS) in Chicago, Illinois. The interview took place in January, 1987. Noted UFO researcher Richard F. Haines checked military records and found Mr. Wall listed as a Korean combatant in the infantry unit he names below. Haines also requested and received from Mr. Wall a drawing of the aerial object he claims to have seen. The drawing depicts a very typical "flying saucer." CNI News thanks John Timmerman for permission to reprint this text. Mr. Wall recounts his experience as follows:

"This event that I am about to relate to you is the truth, so help me God. It happened in the early Spring of 1951 in Korea. We were in the Army infantry, 25th Division, 27th Regiment, 2nd Battalion, 'Easy' Company. We were in what is known on the military maps as the Iron Triangle, near Chorwon.

"It is night. We are located on the slopes of a mountain, below [which] there is a Korean village. Previously we have sent our men into this village to warn the populace that we are going to bombard it with artillery. On this night, we were doing just that. We had aerial artillery bursts coming in.

"We suddenly noticed on our right-hand side what appeared to be a jack-o-lantern come wafting down across the mountain. And at first no one thought anything about it. So we noticed that this thing continued on down to the village to where, indeed, the artillery air bursts were exploding. It had an orange glow in the beginning. We further noticed that this object was [so] quick that it could get into the center of an airburst of artillery and yet remain unharmed.

"[The] time element on this, I would say, [was] anywhere from, oh, forty-five minutes to an hour all told.

"But then this object approached us. And it turned a blue-green brilliant light. It's hard to distinguish the size of it; there's no way to compare it. The light was pulsating. This object approached us.

"I asked for and received permission from Lt. Evans, our company commander at that time, to fire upon this object, which I did with an M-1 rifle with armor-piercing bullets. And I did hit it. It must have been metallic because you could hear when the projectile slammed into it.

"Now why would that bullet damage this craft if the artillery rounds didn't? I don't know, unless they had dropped their protective field around them, or whatever. But the object went wild, and the light was going on and off. It went off completely once, briefly. And it was moving erratically from side to side as though it might crash to the ground. Then, a sound -- we had heard no sound previous to this -- the sound of, like, diesel locomotives revving up. That's the way this thing sounded.

"And then, we were attacked. We were swept by some form of a ray that was emitted in pulses, in waves that you could visually see only when it was aiming directly at you. That is to say, like a searchlight sweeps around and... you would see it coming at you. Now you would feel a burning, tingling sensation all over your body, as though something were penetrating you.

"So the company commander, Lt. Evans, hauled us into our bunkers. We didn't know what was going to happen. We were scared. These are underground dugouts where you have peep holes to look out to fire at the enemy. So, I'm in my bunker with another man. We're peeping out at this thing. It hovered over us for a while, lit up the whole area with its light, and then I saw it shoot off at a 45 degree angle, that quick, just there and gone. That quick. And it was as though that was the end of it.

"But, three days later the entire company of men had to be evacuated by ambulance. They had to cut roads in there and haul them out. They were too weak to walk. They had dysentery. Then subsequently, when the doctors did see them, they had an extremely high white blood cell count which the doctors could not account for.

"Now in the military, especially the Army, each day you file a company report. We had a confab about that. Do we file it in the report or not? And the consensus was 'No.' Because they'd lock every one of us up and think we were crazy. At that time, no such thing as a UFO had ever been heard of, and we didn't know what it was.

"I still don't know what it was. But I do know that since that time I have periods of disorientation, memory loss, and I dropped from 180 pounds to 138 pounds after I got back to this country. And I've had great difficulty keeping my weight up. Indeed, I'm retired and disabled today."

http://www.nicap.org/springkor.htm

Edited by TheMacGuffin

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Yes Sagan new a lot more.

I had a friend years ago who spent some time working with him and he claimed that Sagan's personal belief and knowledge was different from what he portrayed publicly because he was funded heavily by acedemia...that's the case for many scientists. That is Universities and private/government research groups etc. Since his views were widely accepted by the public, he had to be damn careful what he said or he could lose his funding by losing his credibility. To be on the safe side he took the firm stance of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".

Some have claimed over the years that this made him a paid disinformationist. Not at all true. He was a scientist trying to earn a living and had to protect his income.

By saying "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof", he was indirectly inferring ...."go get the proof, it's out there somewhere".

His great novel "Contact" details a scenerio in which we make contact via interdimensional means. Although it was published as fiction, it wasn't far off from Sagan's beliefs.

I could see that I mean a man of Carl Sagans intellect cannot possibly believe theres no other life in the universe.

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I wish he'd have been a bit clearer, if he did. I never really got what the ending of Contact was all about. Did they meet the Aliens or not?

Well, Dr. Arroway did, but it was a subjective experience so she didn't have direct evidence... until she discovered the mathematical formula regarding pi.

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Incidentally, I see you've got the festive seasonal avatar up again already, Boon. It always makes me feel all warm & cozy when i see that ol' noose swinging in the snow. :santa:

Thanks for that 747, and I'm very happy to hear that it gives you a warm and cozy feeling. :)

Right now it is merely a winter scene, and a bit ahead of schedule actually considering that it is only autumn here. Perhaps next year I'll come up with something more appropriate, like leaves blowing by, but I have a Christmas version too which will show up in December. :D

The things which entertain me and occupy my time... silly really in the grand scheme of things, but I do rather enjoy playing around with images like these. :blush:

Cheers.

Edit to change a repetitive word... It is a pet peeve of mine, but very often I'm so often guilty of it. <-- see what I did there?

Edited by booNyzarC
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Well, Dr. Arroway did, but it was a subjective experience so she didn't have direct evidence... until she discovered the mathematical formula regarding pi.

yes, i never really got that bit. Perhaps we should put *Spoiler* for anyone who hasn't read it, but it seemed as if she and her team came into contact with an extraterrestrial intelligence, but never actually met any Aliens, which i was a bit disappointed by. :(

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What do you make of the video Boony?...Do you think that it could be an example of that 'atmospheric-plasma' that we discussed?

Or could this film be something just as simple as a reflection on a glass window from behind the cameraman?

I must say that the account of the sighting/filming given by Tim and his daughter Brandy, sounds sincere enough....but the 'object' in the clip itself doesn't seem quite real to me. And the smaller 'orbs' [as someone described them] look like a couple of pigeons darting around the scene in my opinion....But then as always,..I could be way off the mark!...what do you think ?

Cheers buddy.

Hiya 1963, yes it is quite interesting. I'm not sure what to make of it to be honest. If it is some kind of plasma, I'd say it is probably quite large and appears to have remained visible for a significant amount of time. The one thing that bothers me about this particular video is that it ends rather abruptly instead of continuing to film the object for the entire duration it was visible. I haven't looked into any possible explanation for this apparent discrepancy, possibly the battery died in the camera?

As for the 'orbs' I suppose they could be birds, but we'll probably never know. As is the case with these kinds of things they often raise more questions than answers.

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UFO Disclosure in Russia. Not sure when this was aired, but it looks fairly recent and contains testimonies from Russian Generals and Cosmonauts. A little heavy going at the beginning but then follow some excellent testimonies.

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You mean he hoaxed it? He was outside looking at the the thing with his daughter! What do you classify as real when looking at UFO footage? Please clarify.

Hi Zoser!

In reply to your question...I mean that yes "He Could" have hoaxed it!...But I did not mean that "He Definitely" hoaxed it!...Who knows?..certainly not me!..or you for that matter!...How on earth would you be able to swear that the guy was outside when he filmed the thing?...Your just taking his word for it!

And I already said that the guy sounded like a pretty sincere sort of chap...but then, i've been proven wrong about that kind of assumption before! [on several occasions in fact] ...And as I said to Boony,..it may just be in my imagination...but something is in the back of my mind telling me that there's something just not quite right with the video?...And it being a light reflection filmed either deliberately or by accident, seems to be a reasonable determination to my mind. :tu:

...And just for clarification Zoser,... I only look at this type of video in hopes that I may someday come across an unmistakable example of an ETV!...UFO's are not really of much interest to me buddy, and I have found that 'very few' of the myriad of UFO videos that I would classify as possible ETV's...And to this end the Nick Mariana footage from 1950 is still my personal favourite possible ETV video....

http://www.nicap.org/mariana.htm

Cheers buddy.

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Hiya 1963, yes it is quite interesting. I'm not sure what to make of it to be honest. If it is some kind of plasma, I'd say it is probably quite large and appears to have remained visible for a significant amount of time. The one thing that bothers me about this particular video is that it ends rather abruptly instead of continuing to film the object for the entire duration it was visible. I haven't looked into any possible explanation for this apparent discrepancy, possibly the battery died in the camera?

As for the 'orbs' I suppose they could be birds, but we'll probably never know. As is the case with these kinds of things they often raise more questions than answers.

Yep..I know what you mean Boony!...it always frustrates me when we don't get to see the 'whole picture' by a video ending prematurely!..and we are left to guess how the alleged 'encounter' ended! <_<

I found this longer video that is entitled "The Whole Footage", that also shows a seemingly duplicate UFO filmed in Mexico in 2009...but still...neither one shows how the 'UFO sighting' actually ended!!... :no:

[...can't help thinking that both of these videos were filmed behind glass though?]

Cheers buddy.

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Yep..I know what you mean Boony!...it always frustrates me when we don't get to see the 'whole picture' by a video ending prematurely!..and we are left to guess how the alleged 'encounter' ended! <_<

I found this longer video that is entitled "The Whole Footage", that also shows a seemingly duplicate UFO filmed in Mexico in 2009...but still...neither one shows how the 'UFO sighting' actually ended!!... :no:

[...can't help thinking that both of these videos were filmed behind glass though?]

Cheers buddy.

That's interesting. It's a bizarre sighting.

But I got a blistering headache from that horrifying devil music...lol

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UFO Disclosure in Russia. Not sure when this was aired, but it looks fairly recent and contains testimonies from Russian Generals and Cosmonauts. A little heavy going at the beginning but then follow some excellent testimonies.

[media=]

[/media]

I just watched that and found it a major disappointment. I nearly stopped it when the guy near the beginning starts going on about this quest for disclosure he's been sent on by the Holy Virgin.

There's a few grainy and fuzzy shots of UFO's. Very unscientific.

I shut it off when the guy around 33 minutes starts explaining how the ET's figure into the spiritual hierarchy and that beings "higher" than the ET's are here on Earth.

It all sounded at bit Sheldan Nidle"ish" to me when they start equating ET's to spirituality.

No offence, but I'd give this production a big zero on the credibility scale.

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And what about the others?

Its just one hypothesis of the few. Maybe Yu. Krivonischenko had something that contaminated parts of the clothes of others. Who knows...

There is the problem with all this radioactivity hype: radioactive were only three things (clothes) out of 10 belonging to two persons (out of 4 tested) - A.Kolevatov (who, btw, was dealing with radioactive materials as well) and L.Dubinina. So, another hypothesis is (link in russian) that clothes (parts of them) were contaminated from the soil/dirt in the area (near the river) where bodies were found.

Edit to add: biosamples (samples from bodies) did not showed any sign of radioactivity.

Edited by bmk1245

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Hi Zoser!

In reply to your question...I mean that yes "He Could" have hoaxed it!...But I did not mean that "He Definitely" hoaxed it!...Who knows?..certainly not me!..or you for that matter!...How on earth would you be able to swear that the guy was outside when he filmed the thing?...Your just taking his word for it!

http://www.nicap.org/mariana.htm

Cheers buddy.

Nobody could swear to it I agree. His daughter saw it too. I think we need to have a little more trust in human integrity. This was before the days of home CGI.

Also many other people in the area saw the same sighting.

IN ADDDITION TO 21 WITNESSES IN 13 DIFFERENT LOCATIONS THROUGHOUT COLORADO HAVING SIGHTINGS OF THE SAME OBJECT WITHIN A 48-HOUR PERIOD OF EDWARDS' TAPING, OTHER INDIVIDUALS IN CALIFORNIA, ARIZONA, NEW MEXICO, MONTANA, INDIANA, AND OTHER PARTS OF THE U.S. HAVE COME FORWARD TO REPORT SIGHTINGS OF VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL, "CIGAR" OR TUBE-SHAPED LARGE FLYING OBJECTS, WITH SOME PROVIDING PHOTOS AND VIDEOS ALONG WITH THE ACCOUNTS OF THEIR EXPERIENCES. IN PARTICULAR, UFO ENTHUSIAST TOM KING HAS CAPTURED ON VIDEOTAPE ON THREE SEPARATE OCCASIONS SEVERAL FRAMES OF THE "MAIN CRAFT" AS WELL AS A VIRTUAL CATALOGUE WITHIN HIS "SOLAR CORONA" VIDEO FOOTAGE OF MANY TYPES OF SMALLER UFOS IN THE SKIES OVER PHOENIX.

http://www.artgomperz.com/tim.html

This was no hoax. It's as real as roast potatoes.

Edited by zoser

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Its just one hypothesis of the few. Maybe Yu. Krivonischenko had something that contaminated parts of the clothes of others. Who knows...

There is the problem with all this radioactivity hype: radioactive were only three things (clothes) out of 10 belonging to two persons (out of 4 tested) - A.Kolevatov (who, btw, was dealing with radioactive materials as well) and L.Dubinina. So, another hypothesis is (link in russian) that clothes (parts of them) were contaminated from the soil/dirt in the area (near the river) where bodies were found.

Edit to add: biosamples (samples from bodies) did not showed any sign of radioactivity.

Relatives noticed an odd colour of the bodies at the funeral. Something weird happened out there that has never been satifactorily explained. Nine experienced climbers meeting an untimely end with physical injuries and untypical bodily decomposition. The orbs witnessed by the initial investigators.

Not a smoking gun by any means but incredibly suspicious.

Edited by zoser

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Hey Zoser who is that a picture of on your avatar??

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The Burger King.

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Hey Zoser who is that a picture of on your avatar??

I'll IM you. It may give away my real ID to the MIB.

Just realised you may even be a MIB (Oh damn).

Edited by zoser

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Hey Zoser who is that a picture of on your avatar??

He's the reason we all have to endure that hellish nightmare in school called calculus.

Pierre de Fermat.

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Nobody could swear to it I agree. His daughter saw it too. I think we need to have a little more trust in human integrity. This was before the days of home CGI.

Also many other people in the area saw the same sighting.

IN ADDDITION TO 21 WITNESSES IN 13 DIFFERENT LOCATIONS THROUGHOUT COLORADO HAVING SIGHTINGS OF THE SAME OBJECT WITHIN A 48-HOUR PERIOD OF EDWARDS' TAPING, OTHER INDIVIDUALS IN CALIFORNIA, ARIZONA, NEW MEXICO, MONTANA, INDIANA, AND OTHER PARTS OF THE U.S. HAVE COME FORWARD TO REPORT SIGHTINGS OF VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL, "CIGAR" OR TUBE-SHAPED LARGE FLYING OBJECTS, WITH SOME PROVIDING PHOTOS AND VIDEOS ALONG WITH THE ACCOUNTS OF THEIR EXPERIENCES. IN PARTICULAR, UFO ENTHUSIAST TOM KING HAS CAPTURED ON VIDEOTAPE ON THREE SEPARATE OCCASIONS SEVERAL FRAMES OF THE "MAIN CRAFT" AS WELL AS A VIRTUAL CATALOGUE WITHIN HIS "SOLAR CORONA" VIDEO FOOTAGE OF MANY TYPES OF SMALLER UFOS IN THE SKIES OVER PHOENIX.

http://www.artgomperz.com/tim.html

This was no hoax. It's as real as roast potatoes.

Well!...someone's got a bee in his bonnet about this video , haven't they Zoser!

Firstly...I believe that the balance of having the requisite amount of 'trust in human integrity', and falling into the 'gullible-fool class' is a lot trickier than you imagine my young friend!...And is a life skill that we all strive to master. And of course, I can speak only for myself,..but there has been plenty of pitfalls along my humble attempts to improve my powers of assessing the initial validity-factor of any given case. ...But I believe that to this end, I am genuinely trying to ameliorate!

And so I would appreciate it if you would not try to give me a lecture in the subject of trusting a witness statement from a person that it is impossible for me to personally vouch for!

Tim Edwards, as I have stated several times before, ..has imo, the demeanor of a honest and reliable witness. But also, as I said previously...i've been fooled by that opinion before! And i'm sure that history will prove, .. so has just about everyone in the world at some time or other!

His daughters testimony?.. I find is a plus point, but by no means a deal-breaker ..on account of her youth. And one cannot rule out the possibility that a child would think it prudent to back-up her fathers story! [but I am not saying that this is the case here...just a possibility]

Your other point is unwarranted because I never mentioned CGI...the film didn't feel that way to me!

And secondly...I noticed that you pasted a small section from the link that you provided. ...I assume that you think that the passage somehow proves that Tim Edward's film is authentic...?

"IN ADDDITION TO 21 WITNESSES IN 13 DIFFERENT LOCATIONS THROUGHOUT COLORADO HAVING SIGHTINGS OF THE SAME OBJECT WITHIN A 48-HOUR PERIOD OF EDWARDS' TAPING, OTHER INDIVIDUALS IN CALIFORNIA, ARIZONA, NEW MEXICO, MONTANA, INDIANA, AND OTHER PARTS OF THE U.S. HAVE COME FORWARD TO REPORT SIGHTINGS OF VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL, "CIGAR" OR TUBE-SHAPED LARGE FLYING OBJECTS,"

Did you notice that the article makes a rather large leap that the objects witnessed by the '21 other witnesses in the 13 different locations' were the actual same object?...and then goes on to say.."virtually identical, cigar or tube-shaped large flying object"...note .."virtually identical"!...but it's a pretty-much done deal that it was the same object!...?

and then there's the...

"WITH SOME PROVIDING PHOTOS AND VIDEOS ALONG WITH THE ACCOUNTS OF THEIR EXPERIENCES."

....fine!...but No Links to then?...and continues...

"IN PARTICULAR, UFO ENTHUSIAST TOM KING HAS CAPTURED ON VIDEOTAPE ON THREE SEPARATE OCCASIONS SEVERAL FRAMES OF THE "MAIN CRAFT" AS WELL AS A VIRTUAL CATALOGUE WITHIN HIS "SOLAR CORONA" VIDEO FOOTAGE OF MANY TYPES OF SMALLER UFOS IN THE SKIES OVER PHOENIX."

...Still No Link..?

..So I go and find my own Tom King photos...

KingPuk1095.jpg

...and this is all that I can find from Tom King here at this link....

file:///C:/Users/Alex/Desktop/Page%20Title.htm

...doesn't look a lot like Tim's UFO to me...?

salidacolorado.jpg

...so I looked further!...but then I hit a stream of sites that made it overpoweringly obvious that 'Tom King' [skywatcher] was nothing but one of those despicable charlatans in ufology that I loath !...A Hoaxer!....

http://www.ufovideo.net/TomKing1.htm

so, I didn't bother to search for his 'smoking-gun' after that!

Also in the article that you linked, there were references to the 'Aerobatic Movement' of the object displayed...and speeds of movement measured at up to '10,000 mph'...I have to say that after viewing the film several times...I still haven't seen where that happened?...Nor have I seen the "pulsating coloured lights" that have been attributed to the object in the video in many of the numerous articles about the film online?... I assume that the authors of these articles are referring to Tim's remark that he could see these through his binoculars...but i'll be jiggered if I can see any reds or greens in the film!.....even in the enhanced version provided by Boony, I cannot see any colours....can you..?

....And now what are we left with to validate the Tim Edwards video then ...?Just his testimony, and the word of his little girl?

In all honesty Zoser, i'm not really sure at all just what to make of Tim's story!

On one hand, your'e right..Tim does come across as a decent honest individual that may just have filmed a truly anomalous UFO!...And I have always held Dr Bruce Maccabee in high esteem, and the film certainly seems to have interested him.?

But on the other hand...there is the fact that Tim testified that the encounter lasted for at least an hour...but yet he only managed to film 5 mins and 20 secs of it!...His reasoning for this was that the batteries were low in the camera...and so he simply just stood and watched the event... instead of going back indoors and replacing them , thus being able to film 'perhaps the most convincing part of his claim,[ that the object flew away].

And also...there's the question in my mind of,.. if there were so many witnesses around as he says...why did no one else get a film or photograph of the event?...This may be a void point...but personally I tend to give more credence to a witness that gives his evidence and then goes on with his life....But it appears that Tim's video was a passport for a change in career from a shopkeeper to a regular 'guest' on the UFO circuit!...It may be nothing , I know...but imo, it is still something to consider?

It may very well turn out to be that Tim Edwards filmed a extraterrestrial mother-ship back in 1995 ...and I think that you already know where I stand on the ETH...But for me the jury's still out on those "roast potatoes" in this case Zoser!

Cheers buddy.

Edited by 1963
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He's the reason we all have to endure that hellish nightmare in school called calculus.

Pierre de Fermat.

The irony of which is simply astounding.

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The irony of which is simply astounding.

Thats a fact ! I was late every day of my caculus class and the best I can figure is that I came out way better without it ! They have little machines that do that now ! and ,E.T`s dont ever use theres to zip around,that would take all the fun out of crashing into NEw Mexico ! :alien::tu:

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Thats a fact ! I was late every day of my caculus class and the best I can figure is that I came out way better without it ! They have little machines that do that now ! and ,E.T`s dont ever use theres to zip around,that would take all the fun out of crashing into NEw Mexico ! :alien::tu:

LOL D, you are without a doubt the coolest guy on this forum. :tsu:

Simply brilliant! :clap:

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