Tantalising Testimony

[psyche101]

You mean ignore people's testimonies?

How about putting them into perspective?

Eyewitness Misidentification

Eyewitness misidentification is the single greatest cause of wrongful convictions nationwide, playing a role in nearly 75% of convictions overturned through DNA testing.

LINK

LINK - Eyewitness Testimony Gary Wells Elizabeth Olsen

The Role of Memory in Eyewitness Testimony

Posted: November 29, 2011 5:20 pm

In spite of statistics showing that eyewitness misidentification is the most common element in all wrongful convictions later overturned by DNA evidence, witness testimony has remained a gold standard of the criminal justice system, according to The New York Times.

For the first time in three decades, the validity of using eyewitness testimony has come under review by the Supreme Court in a case involving a New Hampshire man who was convicted of theft based on the identification by a woman who saw him from a distance in the dead of night.

Earlier in the year, the New Jersey Supreme Court issued a landmark decision requiring major changes in the way courts are required to evaluate identification evidence at trial and how they should instruct juries. The new changes require courts to greatly expand the factors that courts and juries should consider in assessing the risk of misidentification.

When selective attention combines with fear, “you have a very strong memory for a few details,” said Elizabeth Phelps, a psychology professor at New York University. “Emotion gives us confidence more than it gives us accuracy.”

The problem comes when witnesses bring that certainty to the entire memory. In crimes that involve a weapon, Dr. Loftus and other scientists have found that witnesses will fixate on the gun barrel or knife blade but will fail to notice other details as clearly. Yet because they so starkly remember particulars of the weapon and may have the accuracy of parts of their memory affirmed by police officers and prosecutors, witnesses carry an air of assurance into the courtroom.

LINK

Edited September 18, 2012 by psyche101

[tipotep]

Eyewitness Misidentification

Eyewitness misidentification is the single greatest cause of wrongful convictions nationwide, playing a role in nearly 75% of convictions overturned through DNA testing.

LINK

LINK - Eyewitness Testimony Gary Wells Elizabeth Olsen

The Role of Memory in Eyewitness Testimony

Posted: November 29, 2011 5:20 pm

In spite of statistics showing that eyewitness misidentification is the most common element in all wrongful convictions later overturned by DNA evidence, witness testimony has remained a gold standard of the criminal justice system, according to The New York Times.

For the first time in three decades, the validity of using eyewitness testimony has come under review by the Supreme Court in a case involving a New Hampshire man who was convicted of theft based on the identification by a woman who saw him from a distance in the dead of night.

Earlier in the year, the New Jersey Supreme Court issued a landmark decision requiring major changes in the way courts are required to evaluate identification evidence at trial and how they should instruct juries. The new changes require courts to greatly expand the factors that courts and juries should consider in assessing the risk of misidentification.

When selective attention combines with fear, “you have a very strong memory for a few details,” said Elizabeth Phelps, a psychology professor at New York University. “Emotion gives us confidence more than it gives us accuracy.”

The problem comes when witnesses bring that certainty to the entire memory. In crimes that involve a weapon, Dr. Loftus and other scientists have found that witnesses will fixate on the gun barrel or knife blade but will fail to notice other details as clearly. Yet because they so starkly remember particulars of the weapon and may have the accuracy of parts of their memory affirmed by police officers and prosecutors, witnesses carry an air of assurance into the courtroom.

LINK

I have no doubt that many of the witness testimonies are in fact misidentified objects , no doubt .

But I have noticed a trend in the way you come across with your explanations , your trying to say that all the testimonies on this thread are all misidentified ?

You blame Zoser for posting bucket loads of cases claiming that he is trying to overload the thread with quantity not quality , are you not doing the same yourself ?

Your above information does nothing but strengthen the argument on Zosers side .....Death row as an example. In the US there has been 14,634 executions in the period 1608-1987 and 925 in the period 1988-2006 .

Since 1973 there has been 130 people who have been found to be innocent after being convicted , I couldn't find the exact figure but at a guess there has been 1500 + executions in the same time . Now the most common cause was misidentification at 75 % , when I do the sums I get roughly 100 people wrongfully convicted by misidentification out of 1500 , about 6.6 % off all cases .

I will even be generous and bring the figure up to 15% for arguments sake , still leaves 85% of guilty people .

http://deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-us-1608-2002-espy-file

" witness testimony has remained a gold standard of the criminal justice system ''

No one said that it was perfect and there will always be misidentified cases that come to light , over all you would be safe to say that it works most of the time , now tell me how does this not apply to ET research ?

I do agree that the evidence is circumstantial and not enough for me to personally accept that what is going on is in fact ET , but I can say with almost 100% certainty , something is going on and all the claims of misidentification , mass hysteria and some of the other colourful responses doesn’t change the fact that these people are in fact seeing something .

TiP.

[psyche101]

I have no doubt that many of the witness testimonies are in fact misidentified objects , no doubt .

But I have noticed a trend in the way you come across with your explanations , your trying to say that all the testimonies on this thread are all misidentified ?

Hi TT

I feel that most, if not all eyewitness testimonies that offer a definite conclusions are very likely to be heavily biased by pop culture if that is what you are asking. I would say that 99% of people "who definitely saw ET" are indeed incorrect. No case in historical record follows logic. Not one adreses things like communication problems, quarantine issues, how they managed to identify a light in the night sky as an alien craft, or any sort of protocol. I simply refuse an advanced alien race crosses space to mess with our heads. I have adressed every single case with backing information, and the only case I can historically say has left me truly baffled is the Portage County case. About the only one not adressed here. As such, my view of claims at face value will be somewhat cynical, considering the credulous history of the OP.

You blame Zoser for posting bucket loads of cases claiming that he is trying to overload the thread with quantity not quality , are you not doing the same yourself ?

I am not following you here. I have adressed the erroneous claims made, and offered supporting information from sources such as Harvard University. I am trying to discuss each case before it is buried by the next 4 or 5.

I am not blaming him for anything more than a severe lack of research. Might I trouble you to go back over the thread and have a look at how many times Zoser has posted erroneous information, when the correct information was literally at this fingertips. Like the silly Buzz Aldrin claim of his Apollo 11 UFO, it was never ET, and Buzz himself said so, and got mad at the people who twisted his words. Yet what did we get? Listen to this tantalizing testimony! Astronauts seeing ET! There is just no excuse for the lousy claims made like trying to tell us all how wrong we all are about Roswell Rods only a couple of pages ago. I mean mate, this is the height of credulous belief. Who is still dim enough to believe in Roswell Rods???????? Nobody! But Zoser is trying to sell them to us. How do you react to someone who is not only continually lying to your face, and trying to sell you a bad product? That is why I cannot abide by Scientologists. I do not for a second believe that Tom Cruise believes in Xenu, so he is lying to my face, where does one go from there? I would think an even sided discussion would be the go, but no. I am told in this thread by the OP that Mass Hallucinations simply do not happen. So I put up a case of mass hallucination by thousands that has been documented clearly and proves without a doubt that mass hallucinations do happen, the response is another youtube claim. Avoiding answers to these questions is less than convincing.

These are responses, not new cases, not new claims, just the correct and qualified information of what has been peddled to us as genuine proof of ET. I am asking the question Are these testimonies actually tantalising?

How is that doing the same thing? From what I can see, Zoser does not really want to discuss any of the cases, he just want a the biggest catalogue he can possibly create, just as mentioned, like the BFRO does with their databes to make it seem legitimate. What I am doing is the opposite from what I can see, and trying to slow the flood so some cases can actually be looked at.

Your above information does nothing but strengthen the argument on Zosers side .....Death row as an example. In the US there has been 14,634 executions in the period 1608-1987 and 925 in the period 1988-2006 .

Since 1973 there has been 130 people who have been found to be innocent after being convicted , I couldn't find the exact figure but at a guess there has been 1500 + executions in the same time . Now the most common cause was misidentification at 75 % , when I do the sums I get roughly 100 people wrongfully convicted by misidentification out of 1500 , about 6.6 % off all cases .

I will even be generous and bring the figure up to 15% for arguments sake , still leaves 85% of guilty people .

http://deathpenaltyi...-2002-espy-file

" witness testimony has remained a gold standard of the criminal justice system ''

The rest of that quotes goes like this:

In spite of statistics showing that eyewitness misidentification is the most common element in all wrongful convictions later overturned by DNA evidence, witness testimony has remained a gold standard of the criminal justice system, according to The New York Times.

For the first time in three decades, the validity of using eyewitness testimony has come under review by the Supreme Court in a case involving a New Hampshire man who was convicted of theft based on the identification by a woman who saw him from a distance in the dead of night.

Earlier in the year, the New Jersey Supreme Court issued a landmark decision requiring major changes in the way courts are required to evaluate identification evidence at trial and how they should instruct juries. The new changes require courts to greatly expand the factors that courts and juries should consider in assessing the risk of misidentification.

When selective attention combines with fear, “you have a very strong memory for a few details,” said Elizabeth Phelps, a psychology professor at New York University. “Emotion gives us confidence more than it gives us accuracy.”

The problem comes when witnesses bring that certainty to the entire memory.

But the most important part that you have overlooked was this part:

Eyewitness Misidentification Testimony was a factor in 72 percent percent of post-conviction DNA exoneration cases in the U.S., making it the leading cause of these wrongful convictions.

LINK

Now, out of all the claims being made, how many claim to be "definitely" alien? What would be that percentage against say the total number of claims? Maybe 6.6% if we are lucky? Co-incidence?

Some claims are very genuine, and anyone would be a fool not to accept that. Claims of people watching aliens land and make pancakes are more than dubious, and claims where religion enters the mix, more so again. How do you believe someone who can show you a picture of a grainy light in the sky when they start telling you it is an alien craft? People who make extraordinary claims are going to be asked to provide extraordinary evidence. I feel that is simple courtesy.

And what happens to people that get something like this wrong? Bad things. People have gone to jail over testimony and suffered for a very long time. Also, I think this is a much bigger problem than just testimony, being driven by emotion, testimony is blinded by the worst we have to offer as a species, consider these statistics:

Races of the 297 exonerees:

186 African Americans

84 Caucasians

21 Latinos

2 Asian American

4 whose race is unknown

I do not think we should make scientific evaluations based on emotion, and there is no doubt at all that testimony is swayed by emotion. Testimony I find a reason to investigate something, not in any way an answer. One mans Alien is another mans Goblin.

No one said that it was perfect and there will always be misidentified cases that come to light , over all you would be safe to say that it works most of the time , now tell me how does this not apply to ET research ?

It does apply to ET research. What we are lacking is the ET evidence. That part is entirely made up. What is the ET benchmark? As far as know, the only thing to identify something as ET is Isotopic Ratio, and I have not seen a single thing to make that claim stand up to testing. I think after 60 years we ought to have at least one genuine piece of evidence, particularly so consider the alleged number of claims. But that is what I am illustrating here, just how many claims, actually can be considered genuine? I feel quantity is the goal of this thread, but only quality will provide the answer.

Now with say a human condition we can observe behaviours, heck, we can even cut up a brain, we can pursue a hypothesis, with ET we cannot because there is nothing to support the hypothesis. It is like you getting cranky with me for Challenging Thor as the entity responsible for lightning bolts. Can I prove a God called Thor does not mysteriously appear invisible and thrown lightning bolts at the earth? No, I cannot despite having a perfectly reasonable and qualified explanation for the formation of lighting, how do I prove this formation is not then man, nay godhandled and hurled at the earth? I feel there is a point where common sense should take over from political correctness.

Now with regards to research, should we not consider precedents? I do believe that human history is filled with us making up stuff to explain natural phenomena. Gods, Fairies, Mermaids, you name it. We are no strangers to answering the tough questions with fantasy. And then still on the note of a precedent, where has every single UFO answer come from to date? Beneath our feet. So why is that not the best place to start? Why jump up and stick ones head in the clouds, make up a bunch of stuff, and then insist it is true when every answer to date has been of earthly origin? Can you honestly tell me the ETH consists of much more than that? Zoser is, and that is why I take his posting in a dim light. He tells people "do your research" when it is more than clear he has done none at all himself. He insists that these testimonies are faultless, and that is just talking me for a ride. And he shows no courtesy for people with real qualifications who have actually taught us some facts, like Jim Oberg, or Tim Herbert. If you treat others with contempt, it is bound to come back at you in some form or another. The worst part is that is is plainly obvious that he is severely under-qualified to question these men of science. All he wants to hear is "It's ET" an no other answer will suffice. It pains me to see good people like yourself duck into a thread like this and get the impression that Zoser is under fire, when all that is happening is karma.

I do agree that the evidence is circumstantial and not enough for me to personally accept that what is going on is in fact ET , but I can say with almost 100% certainty , something is going on and all the claims of misidentification , mass hysteria and some of the other colourful responses doesn’t change the fact that these people are in fact seeing something .

TiP.

I agree with that, but I want to know what is going on. The Hessdalen project is a great start, what I do not want is people peddling me their fantasies. Too many people have pretty much the same one, and repetition is boring. And I do not like being sold something intangible, it goes against every grain in my being to accept these stories at face value. So many take advantage of these wants that people have, and leech of society for a lifetime instead of getting a real job and contributing to society. Any person would only be lying to themselves if they were to think that only honest people are involved in UFOlogy. Like Penn Gillete says, most of these people only really need a hug.

Why is it do you think this thread refuses material from Harvard and insists on taking the view of something like tunguskamystery.com? So it can get as much volume in as possible, you will be hard pressed to find the opinions of Professor Kaku, or Professor Hawking, let alone past giants such as Drake and Hubble, yet these men were a great deal closer to alien life than every single Youtube claim put together and folded over. Co-incidence? I am going to go out on a limb and say "No". Should we not be considering these intellectual giants foremost?

Mate, this is what you are pushing for, the right of people to send us all backwards. The ETH is not much more sophisticated than the Greek Gods were.

I hope this clears some things up, I am of the impression that you are missing a part of the puzzle here.

Cheers.

Edited September 18, 2012 by psyche101

[TheMacGuffin]

Some of the best UFO pictures have been taken by accident, like this one from an aerial mapping expedition in Costa Rica in 1971.

[TheMacGuffin]

And I would never say that 99% of UFOs are misidentified. Not even Project Blue Book could "solve" that many and they went in for completely absurd "explanations", under orders to tell the public that as many cases had been resolved as possible. In reality I think 30-40% of their UFO cases were truly unknown, and it was at least that many with the Condon Committee.

[psyche101]

And I would never say that 99% of UFOs are misidentified. Not even Project Blue Book could "solve" that many and they went in for completely absurd "explanations", under orders to tell the public that as many cases had been resolved as possible. In reality I think 30-40% of their UFO cases were truly unknown, and it was at least that many with the Condon Committee.

What about 99% of people who are fanatical about the subject?

[TheMacGuffin]

Buzz Aldrin, The Aztec Hoax, Ancient Aliens lets face it, that is not what we are seeing here. What this thread seems determined to encompass is the bottom of the barrel. It is an example of the worst UFOlogy has to offer. Credulous leaps of faith, fourth and fifth hand tales, this thread is not about quality, it's about quantity, the same tactic the BFRO uses.

You never hear me talking much about ancient aliens or Billy Meier, but I know a lot of UFO cases that have never been solved or explained. There are a bunch of them in this thread.

I also think it would be very wise to fear aliens, especially since their intentions would be unknown. After all, we even have generals like Benjamin Childlaw on record stating that some of them were hostile. Edward Ruppelt said that as well, and I take that very seriously. Now one could say it's all our fault because we shot first at these intruders, but I'd say it was more a case of defending our airspace.

We have dozens and hundreds of UFO cases involving airspace intrusions and hostile (or defensive) actions taken against them and I have posted quite a few of these on here in various threads.

[TheMacGuffin]

What about 99% of people who are fanatical about the subject?

That might explain a small percentage of these sightings, such as when people get "saucer fever" during the big UFO flaps and waves, but all the official studies that have been done ascribe only a very small percentage of UFO reports to outright hoaxes, "true believers", psychological aberrations, etc. Most of them are reports from ordinary people who saw something very unusual, and the vast number of UFO cases are never reported "officially" at all.

I think the situation with Project Blue Book was that they did not want to continue collecting reports from the general public, but as Dr. Hynek and Jacques Vallee said at the time, that did not mean that the stopped collecting all UFO reports or that the investigation just stopped. I think it has been going on since World War II and it never stopped.

[psyche101]

Some of the best UFO pictures have been taken by accident, like this one from an aerial mapping expedition in Costa Rica in 1971.

That craft would have to be ridiculously large to be genuine. I would suggest the anomaly is probably an Island? The strange colouring throws one of, but if you look closely at the land mass, many of the colours are reproduced on the mainland. Foliage might be the dark spot in the middle.

Edited September 18, 2012 by psyche101

[TheMacGuffin]

And what happens to people that get something like this wrong? Bad things. People have gone to jail over testimony and suffered for a very long time. Also, I think this is a much bigger problem than just testimony, being driven by emotion, testimony is blinded by the worst we have to offer as a species, consider these statistics:

Races of the 297 exonerees:

186 African Americans

84 Caucasians

21 Latinos

2 Asian American

4 whose race is unknown

You've put your finger on something here. There is a problem with the criminal justice system in the U.S., and I know from signing my share of petitions for the Innocence Project over the years that it involves the treatment of blacks first and foremost. They are more likely to be arrested, charged, convicted and receive longer sentences for the same crimes, and to have poor legal representation.

People often do not understand that the U.S. is not typical of other Western countries in the sense that even going back to colonial times, there were two separate law codes and two different criminal justice systems for whites and nonwhites in this country--called the Black Codes for nonwhites, who were not citizens and did not have any basic rights like trial by jury, habeas corpus and so on. Even going back to the 17th and 18th Centuries, they were not allowed these same rights, and there were all kinds of other restrictions such as they were not allowed to own land, nor allowed to engage any many professions and occupations that were for whites only, could not by firearms and explosives, etc, etc.

Even if they were technically "free" persons, they really were not, at least not until fairly recent times. Someone even wrote a book about that called Slaves without Masters.

So given that history, nonwhites have always been liable to get very bad treatment from the courts, the police and the criminal justice system--and still do, even if it's not as absolutely awful as it was in the past. Our constitution even says there are to be no "cruel and unusual punishments like being tortured to death, burned alive, starved to death, broken on the wheel and so on, but these types of punishments were often inflicted on blacks and other minorities even into the 20th Century in some areas.

[booNyzarC]

That craft would have to be ridiculously large to be genuine. I would suggest the anomaly is probably an Island? The strange colouring throws one of, but if you look closely at the land mass, many of the colours are reproduced on the mainland. Foliage might be the dark spot in the middle.

Have you ever zoomed in on that 'craft' before psyche?

Perhaps it is only Pareidolia, but when I zoom in on the 'craft' I see what appears to be a person's head. And no, I don't see Jesus...

A reflection perhaps? Or maybe it's just Pareidolia... dunno...

[psyche101]

You never hear me talking much about ancient aliens or Billy Meier, but I know a lot of UFO cases that have never been solved or explained. There are a bunch of them in this thread.

No, and that is why I will always show you respect, but we have both heard the OP pull some rather interesting claims from some rather dark places. And there are a bunch of them on this thread. I could say a couple of cases on this thread are interesting, but the majority are just filler. If they are so interesting, why does the OP not discuss them? Just say "ohh, this has to be genuine" and then move on to the next clip?

I know you are on the leaner side of the debate here numbers-wise, and I am sorry that you get a hard time, but I do not think affiliating yourself with others well below your level just for support is the way to go. It's only dragging you down.

I also think it would be very wise to fear aliens, especially since their intentions would be unknown. After all, we even have generals like Benjamin Childlaw on record stating that some of them were hostile. Edward Ruppelt said that as well, and I take that very seriously. Now one could say it's all our fault because we shot first at these intruders, but I'd say it was more a case of defending our airspace.

I agree, and I will until some alien tells me otherwise. You do not read the BE thread, so I will post an interesting piece here about a concept that goes beyond hatred, and into pity. Professor Hawking was entirely right when he said all aliens may not be benevolent. Who is even to say that ALiens have to be advanced to cross space? Here on earth we have Pirates, if two species arose on one planet, one far in advance of the other, the lesser advanced species might see space travel and conquer as mere survival. To say we can allow for all cultures ET is nothing short of ludicrous. Far too many options exist.

For MacGuffin:

THEY'RE MADE OUT OF MEAT

"They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"

"Meat. They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"

"There's no doubt about it. We picked up several from different parts of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, and probed them all the way through. They're completely meat."

"That's impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the stars?"

"They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don't come from them. The signals come from machines."

"So who made the machines? That's who we want to contact."

"They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made the machines."

"That's ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You're asking me to believe in sentient meat."

"I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. These creatures are the only sentient race in that sector and they're made out of meat."

"Maybe they're like the orfolei. You know, a carbon-based intelligence that goes through a meat stage."

"Nope. They're born meat and they die meat. We studied them for several of their life spans, which didn't take long. Do you have any idea what's the life span of meat?"

"Spare me. Okay, maybe they're only part meat. You know, like the weddilei. A meat head with an electron plasma brain inside."

"Nope. We thought of that, since they do have meat heads, like the weddilei. But I told you, we probed them. They're meat all the way through."

"No brain?"

"Oh, there's a brain all right. It's just that the brain is made out of meat! That's what I've been trying to tell you."

"So ... what does the thinking?"

"You're not understanding, are you? You're refusing to deal with what I'm telling you. The brain does the thinking. The meat."

"Thinking meat! You're asking me to believe in thinking meat!"

"Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The meat is the whole deal! Are you beginning to get the picture or do I have to start all over?"

"Omigod. You're serious then. They're made out of meat."

"Thank you. Finally. Yes. They are indeed made out of meat. And they've been trying to get in touch with us for almost a hundred of their years."

"Omigod. So what does this meat have in mind?"

"First it wants to talk to us. Then I imagine it wants to explore the Universe, contact other sentiences, swap ideas and information. The usual."

"We're supposed to talk to meat."

"That's the idea. That's the message they're sending out by radio. 'Hello. Anyone out there. Anybody home.' That sort of thing."

"They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?"

"Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat."

"I thought you just told me they used radio."

"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat."

"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you advise?"

"Officially or unofficially?"

"Both."

"Officially, we are required to contact, welcome and log in any and all sentient races or multibeings in this quadrant of the Universe, without prejudice, fear or favor. Unofficially, I advise that we erase the records and forget the whole thing."

"I was hoping you would say that."

"It seems harsh, but there is a limit. Do we really want to make contact with meat?"

"I agree one hundred percent. What's there to say? 'Hello, meat. How's it going?' But will this work? How many planets are we dealing with here?"

"Just one. They can travel to other planets in special meat containers, but they can't live on them. And being meat, they can only travel through C space. Which limits them to the speed of light and makes the possibility of their ever making contact pretty slim. Infinitesimal, in fact."

"So we just pretend there's no one home in the Universe."

"That's it."

"Cruel. But you said it yourself, who wants to meet meat? And the ones who have been aboard our vessels, the ones you probed? You're sure they won't remember?"

"They'll be considered crackpots if they do. We went into their heads and smoothed out their meat so that we're just a dream to them."

"A dream to meat! How strangely appropriate, that we should be meat's dream."

"And we marked the entire sector unoccupied."

"Good. Agreed, officially and unofficially. Case closed. Any others? Anyone interesting on that side of the galaxy?"

"Yes, a rather shy but sweet hydrogen core cluster intelligence in a class nine star in G445 zone. Was in contact two galactic rotations ago, wants to be friendly again."

"They always come around."

"And why not? Imagine how unbearably, how unutterably cold the Universe would be if one were all alone ..."

LINK

A different take!

We have dozens and hundreds of UFO cases involving airspace intrusions and hostile (or defensive) actions taken against them and I have posted quite a few of these on here in various threads.

Yes, but we lack a single conclusion. Options are like backsides, everyone has one. I have enjoyed your posts, you will see I have left you quite a few "likes" since the introduction of the concept, and find many of the links are indeed very intriguing, in fact Zoser should pay you to run this thread for him, but that ever elusive hard proof escapes. With so many opinions out there I do not want to know what people think or guess, I want to find what we have learned. I feel if there is more than we know, as is regularly claimed, there has to be a way to get at the information. If it exists, it can be exposed. What we have exposed, I do find interesting, but it has been very earthly in origin. I am a big believer that none of us have to hide under the conspiracy blanket. I think we can learn enough in this day and age to at least answer the more current questions posed with regards to the phenomena. After all, who is to stop any single one of us.

[TheMacGuffin]

That craft would have to be ridiculously large to be genuine. I would suggest the anomaly is probably an Island? The strange colouring throws one of, but if you look closely at the land mass, many of the colours are reproduced on the mainland. Foliage might be the dark spot in the middle.

Later analysis showed that the UFO was about 600 feet in diameter. They were just taking these pictures automatically every 17 seconds and each frame showed an area of about seven square miles. It's not a button or reflection because it was not taken from inside a plane but from an automated camera in the belly of the aircraft.

It couldn't have been an island because it did not appear in the pictures taken before or afterwards. They studied the original negative and found no defect on the film or signs of a hoax. They did not even know they had a picture of a UFO at all until after the film was developed. It was just there and then it was gone again.

The UFO may even have come from the lake itself and taken off at high speed. Of course, I'm the first to agree that it could not have been a common or ordinary object.

http://forgetomori.com/2007/ufos/ufo-photos-lago-de-cote/

[psyche101]

You've put your finger on something here. There is a problem with the criminal justice system in the U.S., and I know from signing my share of petitions for the Innocence Project over the years that it involves the treatment of blacks first and foremost. They are more likely to be arrested, charged, convicted and receive longer sentences for the same crimes, and to have poor legal representation.

People often do not understand that the U.S. is not typical of other Western countries in the sense that even going back to colonial times, there were two separate law codes and two different criminal justice systems for whites and nonwhites in this country--called the Black Codes for nonwhites, who were not citizens and did not have any basic rights like trial by jury, habeas corpus and so on. Even going back to the 17th and 18th Centuries, they were not allowed these same rights, and there were all kinds of other restrictions such as they were not allowed to own land, nor allowed to engage any many professions and occupations that were for whites only, could not by firearms and explosives, etc, etc.

Even if they were technically "free" persons, they really were not, at least not until fairly recent times. Someone even wrote a book about that called Slaves without Masters.

So given that history, nonwhites have always been liable to get very bad treatment from the courts, the police and the criminal justice system--and still do, even if it's not as absolutely awful as it was in the past. Our constitution even says there are to be no "cruel and unusual punishments like being tortured to death, burned alive, starved to death, broken on the wheel and so on, but these types of punishments were often inflicted on blacks and other minorities even into the 20th Century in some areas.

My Australian heritage is not as lengthy as the US heritage, but we do all have that black cloud back there hanging over those initial shameful acts.

Problem is the justice system is run by people, and that allows human error, but one wonders, could a set of algorithms do a better job?

[psyche101]

Have you ever zoomed in on that 'craft' before psyche?

Perhaps it is only Pareidolia, but when I zoom in on the 'craft' I see what appears to be a person's head. And no, I don't see Jesus...

A reflection perhaps? Or maybe it's just Pareidolia... dunno...

Gidday Boon Mate!

I think I see it!

On top of the cone/mountain?

That does suspiciously look like a bearded face!

[TheMacGuffin]

No, and that is why I will always show you respect, but we have both heard the OP pull some rather interesting claims from some rather dark places. And there are a bunch of them on this thread. I could say a couple of cases on this thread are interesting, but the majority are just filler. If they are so interesting, why does the OP not discuss them? Just say "ohh, this has to be genuine" and then move on to the next clip?

I know you are on the leaner side of the debate here numbers-wise, and I am sorry that you get a hard time, but I do not think affiliating yourself with others well below your level just for support is the way to go. It's only dragging you down.

That was from some science fiction writer called Terry Bisson, although I can't say I've ever heard on such an idea before. Made of meat? Well, it's original anyway, but I don't affiliate myself with such ideas at all.

Thank you for at least having a real discussion with me. In fact, you are one of the very few people on the "skeptical" side I do feel comfortable talking to. I sense great hostility or at least general creepiness from several of the others, who really do seemed determined to score points or just dismiss the whole subject without any real conversation.

Edited September 18, 2012 by TheMacGuffin

[booNyzarC]

Gidday Boon Mate!

I think I see it!

On top of the cone/mountain?

That does suspiciously look like a bearded face!

Indeed it does, to me at least. I can even see what appears to be the eyes focused directly on the 'craft' itself. Or rather, the reflection of what appears to be the eyes focused on the camera...

Hoax?

Dunno...

But even if it is just a random set of shadows, that still doesn't rule out the possibility that this could just have been the head of a rivet falling when the photo was snapped. Seems plausible to me.

Or maybe it was ET?

Who could ever know for sure? Not I. And I contend, not anyone.

Which leaves this photo in the same position as virtually all UFO=ET evidence; inconclusive and highly subjective.

[psyche101]

Later analysis showed that the UFO was about 600 feet in diameter. They were just taking these pictures automatically every 17 seconds and each frame showed an area of about seven square miles. It's not a button or reflection because it was not taken from inside a plane but from an automated camera in the belly of the aircraft.

It couldn't have been an island because it did not appear in the pictures taken before or afterwards. They studied the original negative and found no defect on the film or signs of a hoax. They did not even know they had a picture of a UFO at all until after the film was developed. It was just there and then it was gone again.

The UFO may even have come from the lake itself and taken off at high speed. Of course, I'm the first to agree that it could not have been a common or ordinary object.

http://forgetomori.c...s-lago-de-cote/

I thought it would have to be a decent size, that is why my first thought was an island.

Have reflections been ruled out? Could it be a part of the plane itself?

I did not think it looked like a craft, it seems irregular? It is not symmetrical, and the cone looking thing on top appears to one side, and not perfectly straight. These anomalies would stop any such shape from flying altogether would it not?

[TheMacGuffin]

My Australian heritage is not as lengthy as the US heritage, but we do all have that black cloud back there hanging over those initial shameful acts.

Problem is the justice system is run by people, and that allows human error, but one wonders, could a set of algorithms do a better job?

We slavery began in North America in 1619, and was applied to blacks and Indians, they knew that no such practice existed under the English common law so they borrowed various laws, regulations and restrictions from the old Roman slavery code. So if anyone saws that the US was not based on Roman law, that's only partially true. So any slave or nonwhite person who was sent to the courts did not get a jury trial but a panel of judges, and they were presumed guilty rather than innocent. They had no right to counsel or anything like that, and no nonwhite person was ever allowed to give evidence against whites.

So this was the history of the criminal justice system in America as applied to minorities, just like many of the first police forces in North America originated from the old slave patrols. They could stop and question any nonwhite person after the curfew, and they always had to carry papers giving them permission to travel or move around from one location to another.

There were even laws requiring every adult white male to have firearms and to report for duty with the militia in case of slave rebellions or Indian attacks. I think that our real gun culture arises from that period, although of course any nonwhite person found with weapons or explosives could be killed on the spot by any white person. That was the 'law" too,

[psyche101]

Indeed it does, to me at least. I can even see what appears to be the eyes focused directly on the 'craft' itself. Or rather, the reflection of what appears to be the eyes focused on the camera...

Hoax?

Dunno...

But even if it is just a random set of shadows, that still doesn't rule out the possibility that this could just have been the head of a rivet falling when the photo was snapped. Seems plausible to me.

Or maybe it was ET?

Who could ever know for sure? Not I. And I contend, not anyone.

Which leaves this photo in the same position as virtually all UFO=ET evidence; inconclusive and highly subjective.

LOL, if that is ET, he looks suspiciously like Osama Bin Laden!

Good call boon. I'd like to have a good look at the model of mapping plane. Never noticed that, great catch there mate. Be it deliberate or not, it remains very interesting!

[TheMacGuffin]

Indeed it does, to me at least. I can even see what appears to be the eyes focused directly on the 'craft' itself. Or rather, the reflection of what appears to be the eyes focused on the camera...

Hoax?

Dunno...

But even if it is just a random set of shadows, that still doesn't rule out the possibility that this could just have been the head of a rivet falling when the photo was snapped. Seems plausible to me.

Or maybe it was ET?

Richard Haines and Jacques Vallee analyzed this picture and found that it was a three-dimensional object illuminated by sunlight. It was not a double exposure or a deliberate fabrication. Its maximum diameter would be 683 feet, depending on its distance from the camera, although since the plane was flying at 10,000 feet the object could not have been further away than that.

http://chrome://newtabhttp//www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_03_2_haines.pdf

After this study in 1986 they found the original negative and ruled out any reflections or defects on the film, so Dr. Bruner's opinion that it was not a physical object was incorrect.

[Space Commander Travis]

Heh, McG just said the same thing.

Edited September 18, 2012 by 747400

[Space Commander Travis]

regarding that Costa Rican pic, there's a fairly detailed interpretation of it by our friend Jacques Vallee here, if anyone might be interested enough to browse through it --> http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_03_2_haines.pdf

[psyche101]

That was from some science fiction writer called Terry Bisson, although I can't say I've ever heard on such an idea before. Made of meat? Well, it's original anyway, but I don't affiliate myself with such ideas at all.

Indeed it was original. I found it very amusing, but not only that I find the concept intriguing. There are probably a million reasons we should not believe the any and every visitor we might receive would be akin to Florence Nightingale.

Thank you for at least having a real discussion with me. In fact, you are one of the very few people on the "skeptical" side I do feel comfortable talking to. I sense great hostility or at least general creepiness from several of the others, who really do seemed determined to score points or just dismiss the whole subject without any real conversation.

You are most welcome, you have always shown me courtesy and I endeavour to return it. I take it as high praise considering my position. I very much appreciate discussions from both sides of the fence and I have always appreciated your knowledge. I feel we are all allowed our opinions, and should be free to pursue them. Had I the experiences you have had, I might well have a very different opinion. I look forward to the day when there is no question.

[psyche101]

regarding that Costa Rican pic, there's a fairly detailed interpretation of it by our friend Jacques Vallee here, if anyone might be interested enough to browse through it --> http://www.scientifi...03_2_haines.pdf

I find this a little confusing

We agree that photographic density is high along the northerly boundary of the negative suggesting a high level of exposure. Of course this fact, by itself, does not point toward an optical artifact. Based upon optical density measurements alone, the brightest part of the disk is still lower in luminous intensity than sunlit cloud (i.e., < 1 3,500 ft-L).

Is it merely the black and white effect that gives the impression of a shiny surface? I wonder what the photo would look like in true color?