Tantalising Testimony

[zoser]

Aye mate, I didn't think I'd live to see the day.

No holding hands now; people might start talking,

[zoser]

While I was searching for more cases I came across a very good doc concerning the mutilation phenomena and thought it would be good to let people listen to some testimonies. Once again rather than speculate from a distant observer point of view (which I call 'casual expert syndrome') it's far better to listen to the people who are there on the ground, who find the carcases in their original state and who conduct the examinations.

Interesting that Arizona investigators have now completely ruled out predators as the cause. Think about this for a minute. Also think that what ever is doing this has to be capable of conducting surgical incisions and organ removal cleanly and clinically. The point is made in the documentary that predators actually avoid the carcass after it has been mutilated. Think on this. Then there is the zero loss of blood. The associated light or UFO activity. So listen to what the experts have to say. Enjoy:

The clip is over 50 minutes long but if you don't have time to watch the whole thing, I would recommend listening to Robert Dean of the Sherriffs Dept Arizona, and his testimony begins at 9:54 and last for a few mins.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgo_y4oQSBM&feature=related[/media]

Edited June 24, 2012 by zoser

[bee]

Here's a little known UFO case from 1964. For those who do not want to watch a long video, the high points are that the hunter Donald Shrum spent the night up in a tree being attacked by a group of ETs who kept trying to spray him with some kind of sleeping gas. Some of these aliens acted like robots and Shrum fired some arrows at them. he even set his clothes on fire and through them at his attackers.

Finally two of the robots got together and sprayed lots of the gas up into the tree and put him to sleep. He was worried about what happened to him during that time, since he was out for several hours but woke up at dawn, still strapped to the tree branch with his belt. The UFO and its occupants were gone.

This took place up in the mountains of northern California, near the border with Nevada, which is very sparsely populated country, with few towns and lots of open country. he claimed that the Air Force took one of his arrowheads, with was coated with a metallic substance from where it had hit one of the robots. He never got it back either.

Shrum never wanted any publicity from this case in 1964 because he worked for a major aerospace contractor and didn't want to be considered a loony, so he remained anonymous when he originally told the story to NICAP.

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Believe it or not.

woah...that was one hell of a story/testimony.....cheers for posting it....

mind boggling if we take it at face-value

I agree, it sounds almost comical, except that it left Shrum terrified and gave him nightmares for years--or so he says. We can't actually PROVE anything about this, but the idea of a team of aliens from a super-advanced civilization unable to figure out how to get him down from the tree for hours sounds funny, like the Three Stooges.

lol...yes.

but it got me thinking. Maybe if we are being visited it doesn't HAVE to be 'aliens from a super-advanced civilization'.....it could be from

a civilization that is just a couple or so thousand years advanced from ours. And that a humanoid civilization along those lines might

....just might...reside in this Solar System. But wouldn't be easily detected or studied because they would be existing in a different

magnetic-gravitational 'bubble'......separate from our magnetic-gravitational reality....and the instruments we might be using...?

A planet like, Venus, for example....could appear uninhabitable from our perspective....but might have a reality that is separate, and

possibly comparable to ours....?

The Beings in the Testimony didn't levitate and pluck him out of the tree or whip a weapon out and blast him. They seemed to be bound

by earth conditions...in their suits. Perhaps they were on an exporatory mission and just had their gas? puffing robots there as protection

should they need it.....

Yes, it's just bizarre.

Shrum had the distinct impression that they were trying to capture him intact, and he definitely didn't want to be taken. It's almost like gamekeepers going after an animal in a tree.

I was impressed at how enterprising Shrum was during the whole episode (if we suspend judgement and take it as a real account)

Perhaps they decided to try and climb the tree to reassure him and communicate with him? Just a thought. But because he was so

blown away with it all he thought they were 'after him'. If they were THAT advanced they surely could have got him...no bother.

At the end of the day...he was more or less unharmed.

Imagine if the 'big secret' about visitation in modern times.....IS that a civilization in our Solar System is popping into our reality to study

Earth and it's inhabitants. But they are not super-super advanced....just a bit more advanced, technologically than us.....

Thanks again for posting. As bizarre as it was.....I sensed a possible ring of truth about it.

Just listened to the whole 1 hour 30 recording of the Cisco Grove encounter. Recommended listening. Strange how he mentions his hunting gear, such as bow, water container, matches, however the one thing I expected him as a hunter to be carrying never gets a mention - a knife! One of the objects that could have made a difference to the critters who were trying to climb the tree. Makes no difference to the case as such, but I just found it curious.

Interesting how badly he was treated by the air force; threatening him to secrecy, taking his evidence and not returning it, and making a derogatory remark about him in Project Blue Book. All very typical.

Thanks for posting it, and I'm sure others will find it equally fascinating.

I agree.....and I did find it fascinating. It was a really well presented video.

..

Edited June 24, 2012 by bee

[zoser]

woah...that was one hell of a story/testimony.....cheers for posting it....

mind boggling if we take it at face-value

lol...yes.

but it got me thinking. Maybe if we are being visited it doesn't HAVE to be 'aliens from a super-advanced civilization'.....it could be from

a civilization that is just a couple or so thousand years advanced from ours. And that a humanoid civilization along those lines might

....just might...reside in this Solar System. But wouldn't be easily detected or studied because they would be existing in a different

magnetic-gravitational 'bubble'......separate from our magnetic-gravitational reality....and the instruments we might be using...?

A planet like, Venus, for example....could appear uninhabitable from our perspective....but might have a reality that is separate, and

possibly comparable to ours....?

The Beings in the Testimony didn't levitate and pluck him out of the tree or whip a weapon out and blast him. They seemed to be bound

by earth conditions...in their suits. Perhaps they were on an exporatory mission and just had their gas? puffing robots there as protection

should they need it.....

I was impressed at how enterprising Shrum was during the whole episode (if we suspend judgement and take it as a real account)

Perhaps they decided to try and climb the tree to reassure him and communicate with him? Just a thought. But because he was so

blown away with it all he thought they were 'after him'. If they were THAT advanced they surely could have got him...no bother.

At the end of the day...he was more or less unharmed.

Imagine if the 'big secret' about visitation in modern times.....IS that a civilization in our Solar System is popping into our reality to study

Earth and it's inhabitants. But they are not super-super advanced....just a bit more advanced, technologically than us.....

Thanks again for posting. As bizarre as it was.....I sensed a possible ring of truth about it.

I agree.....and I did find it fascinating. It was a really well presented video.

..

Also interesting was the fact that he decided (and quite wisely given his domestic situation) to keep quiet about the incident for some years after for fear of losing his job. Makes you wonder just how much fear of censure has prevented witnesses from coming forward over the years? This was cited in the presentation as one of the main reasons why this case is so little known in Ufology.

Edited June 24, 2012 by zoser

[bee]

Also interesting was the fact that he decided (and quite wisely given his domestic situation) to keep quiet about the incident for some years after for fear of losing his job. Makes you wonder just how much fear of censure has prevented witnesses from coming forward over the years? This was cited in the presentation as one of the main reasons why this case is so little known in Ufology.

yes.....he wasn't like Military men (and others) who are bound by secrecy oaths and have to be careful what they say and how they say it..

but other fears like losing a decent job (and ridicule).....can, no doubt, stop people from going public.....

Those coins that he says he chucked at the Beings and Robots...perhaps they are in a display-case somewhere else in the Solar System.....

Labelled 'Earth Artefacts'.....

.

[zoser]

yes.....he wasn't like Military men (and others) who are bound by secrecy oaths and have to be careful what they say and how they say it..

but other fears like losing a decent job (and ridicule).....can, no doubt, stop people from going public.....

Those coins that he says he chucked at the Beings and Robots...perhaps they are in a display-case somewhere else in the Solar System.....

Labelled 'Earth Artefacts'.....

.

Interesting also that he said that all through the ordeal he had the distinct feeling that if he succumbed then it would end badly for him and that he might end up as one of their captive biological specimens; what an awful thought!

[Hazzard]

I thought this one was a hoax H?

That goes without saying, z. Just look at the way it "impacted" the ground.

Just glad to see that you dont believe in ALL of them.

[zoser]

That goes without saying, z. Just look at the way it "impacted" the ground.

Just glad to see that you dont believe in ALL of them.

I have some ideas about this but as who do you suppose made the video and why? Bearing in mind that the making of it was obviously ordered at some official level, because of the shear number of people in the film. What was it designed to achieve?

[Hazzard]

I have some ideas about this but as who do you suppose made the video and why? Bearing in mind that the making of it was obviously ordered at some official level, because of the shear number of people in the film. What was it designed to achieve?

Im sure it was some evil government payed disinformation skeem, aswell as all the other millions of UFO hoaxes out there, right?

[zoser]

Im sure it was some evil government payed disinformation skeem, aswell as all the other millions of UFO hoaxes out there, right?

Well you know well that we disagree on your last point, but my theory about the Russian UFO fake is that they wanted to make people believe that they had access to ET technology knowing that the US takes a deep interest in such matters. Kind of a cold war competitive misinformation ploy.

[DONTEATUS]

THis maybe what makes a part of our world go around. THe other part is Gravity ! I`ll stick with gravity ! IT seems to always be keeping me grounded !

[badeskov]

Zoser,

Please feel free to comment on this post of mine at your leisure. I know how you like to avoid real research like the plague ,but you should dignify yourself to do so for other readers here in my honest opinion. Instead of posting ridiculous garbage that for most have been either debunked already or is authored by, lets just say, less than credible sources. You are doing yourself a huge disservice. By far the majority at UM knows how to split the wheat from from the chaff and the only person you are fooling is yourself.

Cheers,

Badeskov

[psyche101]

At the risk of feeding the whackos, it is more plausible that UFOs (assuming they are stealth craft of some sort) have selective de-cloaking. Or else, simply project a virtual image. The software to automatically recognise a camera lens is paltry by comparison.

Well Hello Zim!!

Back from the dead mate, it sure has been a long time between drinks. I hope you have been well.

I think that establishing a stealth capability would follow the confirmation that we are being visited by alien craft. Guessing what it might be seems putting the cart before the horse there to me? I am more pointing at the amateur contingent than anything, it is a major obstacle for any visitor to overcome with regards to stealth.

This may be true of Joe Average. One must not mistake the importance of testimony. Take for example, the recent face eating case in Florida. In this day and age, we'd say the eyewitness was hallucinating / saw a trick being played / watched too many zombie movies. But no, because we had a corpse of the attacker and the victim, plus police footage, testimony and video footage, we believed it. We automatically compensate our view of the testimony to fit in with the story. But when there is little corroborating evidence, the memory becomes subject to uncertainty and suggestion. And then of course there is plain old lying. Which occurs often enough, even in the realm of science and peer review. But then, there is no such thing as data which is free from noise. It is something that must be understood and accounted for.

Indeed, the study of medical symptoms is purely based on perception and report, and yet we base treatments around it.

I beg to differ with the comparison, cannibalism is not unheard of, and PCP is well known for this sort of behaviour. Not suspecting drugs immediately strikes me as medically ignorant on behalf of the controlling authority. In the case where a witness has a fleeting glimpse of something unusual, I am sure you agree that nothing can be determined from such bref instances, yet witnesses are sure that they saw "an interplanetary spaceship" I do not believe such a determination is humanly possible. As far as for simply cataloging unusual instances, I would agree with you and I think that is pretty much what NARCAP is doing.

I don't think I'll even bother watching that video, to be honest.

I can't say I blame you.

Good to see you Zim, all the best mate.

Cheers.

[psyche101]

It does indeed seem that for some the truth is too uncomfortable to bear. Is that what skepticism really is?

What do you know of the truth pray tell? That atmospheric plasmas are science fiction?

[psyche101]

Another excellent testimony and one well known in UFO research. Colonel Robert Salas describes the disarming of 20 Minuteman ICBM's at Malmstrom air force base in Montana in 1967. A short clip but compelling. This had apparently happened at another base close by only 1 week earlier! The Colonel concludes the clip by giving his frank assessment.

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Is the Echo Oscar debate another that you fear to tread near? Tim Herbert gave up information that makes the Salas/Hasting version physically impossible. The missiles could not be affected the way that is claimed by Hastings.

I bet this does not mater to you one bit does it, but because you refuse to peruse the information I am going to accuse you of deliberately posting false information. The faut could not possible happen as described. Salas and Hastings must be wrong. No matter how convincing they sound, magical wires do not appear and disappear on cue. How much of the post investigation have you evaluated? Any? Did you know that the local power authority was transformer switching nearby at the same time, and the cut out and surge as the new transformers are brought online could make the fault happen as described?

Only one week earlier, the actual missile base men have posted on this very site, yet agan you did not even have to leave UM to see why the UFO claims is nothing short of impossible.

How did the UFO go shut down missile after missile when they do not have interconnecting cables? The UFO only hovered over one. Please explain that one Zoser.

[psyche101]

Jim Penniston's testimony of the Bentwaters incident in 1980 England is unique for the simple reason that he and two other US military personnel were able to get close to the craft take photos and make notes. What happened to the photos is anyone's guess but Jim's sketches and notes are available to be read. His is emphatic that he was within feet of a triangular shaped craft approx 9 feet in length that was emitting multi coloured lights and some powerful electrostatic energy that could be felt on the hair and skin.

It completely debunks the idea that what the military saw in the woods that night was a lighthouse or a meteor shower. The person that came up with that theory was obviously not taking account of the evidence which should be a first principle of science or so the skeptics here tell me. Enjoy the clip. There is another clip of Jim in the video 'Out of the Blue' and if anyone would like to see this just let me know. I will also post JIm's sketches later unless someone beats me to it.

This is absolutely fascinating.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXt05K3hs-g[/media]

Who has the record of the craft entering or leaving out airspace? With all the agencies private as well as government pointing up, not to mention the amateur contingent, if this came and left via space, someone would have seen it, and that confirmation will be rather convincing. Can you provinde the tracking details please.

[psyche101]

In 3 parts. A lovely documentary.

I take it you have not picked up that you look ludicrous when you use incorrect terminology like this.

Ohh well, you cannot say I did not try to help you. You want to look the fool be my guest.

[zoser]

Is the Echo Oscar debate another that you fear to tread near? Tim Herbert gave up information that makes the Salas/Hasting version physically impossible. The missiles could not be affected the way that is claimed by Hastings.

I bet this does not mater to you one bit does it, but because you refuse to peruse the information I am going to accuse you of deliberately posting false information. The faut could not possible happen as described. Salas and Hastings must be wrong. No matter how convincing they sound, magical wires do not appear and disappear on cue. How much of the post investigation have you evaluated? Any? Did you know that the local power authority was transformer switching nearby at the same time, and the cut out and surge as the new transformers are brought online could make the fault happen as described?

Only one week earlier, the actual missile base men have posted on this very site, yet agan you did not even have to leave UM to see why the UFO claims is nothing short of impossible.

How did the UFO go shut down missile after missile when they do not have interconnecting cables? The UFO only hovered over one. Please explain that one Zoser.

I can't explain it; that's why I'm here. Neither could the base operatives; they were there.

[zoser]

I take it you have not picked up that you look ludicrous when you use incorrect terminology like this.

Ohh well, you cannot say I did not try to help you. You want to look the fool be my guest.

Zoser is a fool and should stop because he refuses to succumb to the skeptic's bullying? Dream on.

Edited June 25, 2012 by zoser

[Tim Hebert]

Per Zoser: "Another excellent testimony and one well known in UFO research. Colonel Robert Salas describes the disarming of 20 Minuteman ICBM's at Malmstrom air force base in Montana in 1967."

Robert Salas left the Air Force as a captain. In fairness, Salas appears to have had a successful post-Air Force career working in the Aero-Space industry. Whether his "execellent" testimony is exactly that...that's open to debate. With regards to his book, "Faded Giant", Salas devotes 75 percent of it's content to Minot AFB, Echo Flight, and his personal views on Disclosure. Oscar Flight is parceled into the mid-section of the book. It appears that for Oscar Flight's story to have any traction, Salas must rely on the two Minot AFB incidents and the Echo Flight shutdowns. Simply, the Oscar story can not stand on it's own, but must rely on a correlation basis: "If Minot and Echo Flight are true...then Oscar must be true by default.

Salas' story has is a paradox. In my opinion, the current documentation and testimony for Echo Flight cast the UFO scenario in doubt. Salas' story is not "burden" by documents and official investigations. It's simply his/and Fred Meiwald's versions of events, as they heard it from the Flight Security Controller and the security response team. Keep in mind that Salas was unaware of the UFO report from the security team at one of his launch facilities and Meiwald was totally unaware of the FSC report to Salas concerning the UFO report at the front gate of the launch control facility (topside). And both Salas and Meiwald talked to the FSC at changeover on separate occasions prior to being choppered back to base.

Do the different UFO accounts cancel each other out? Who were the names of the FSC and the two security response cops? After 45 years, no one knows, that I'm aware.

Psyche: Thanks for the plug for my Echo theory, it's much appreciated!

[zoser]

Per Zoser: "Another excellent testimony and one well known in UFO research. Colonel Robert Salas describes the disarming of 20 Minuteman ICBM's at Malmstrom air force base in Montana in 1967."

Robert Salas left the Air Force as a captain. In fairness, Salas appears to have had a successful post-Air Force career working in the Aero-Space industry. Whether his "execellent" testimony is exactly that...that's open to debate. With regards to his book, "Faded Giant", Salas devotes 75 percent of it's content to Minot AFB, Echo Flight, and his personal views on Disclosure. Oscar Flight is parceled into the mid-section of the book. It appears that for Oscar Flight's story to have any traction, Salas must rely on the two Minot AFB incidents and the Echo Flight shutdowns. Simply, the Oscar story can not stand on it's own, but must rely on a correlation basis: "If Minot and Echo Flight are true...then Oscar must be true by default.

Salas' story has is a paradox. In my opinion, the current documentation and testimony for Echo Flight cast the UFO scenario in doubt. Salas' story is not "burden" by documents and official investigations. It's simply his/and Fred Meiwald's versions of events, as they heard it from the Flight Security Controller and the security response team. Keep in mind that Salas was unaware of the UFO report from the security team at one of his launch facilities and Meiwald was totally unaware of the FSC report to Salas concerning the UFO report at the front gate of the launch control facility (topside). And both Salas and Meiwald talked to the FSC at changeover on separate occasions prior to being choppered back to base.

Do the different UFO accounts cancel each other out? Who were the names of the FSC and the two security response cops? After 45 years, no one knows, that I'm aware.

Psyche: Thanks for the plug for my Echo theory, it's much appreciated!

Also don't forget that this is only one of many such incidents; although the paper trail may well be vague after all these years say with the Malmstron incident, and Echo Incident don't forget they have happened in other areas of the US and other countries too. It took me just a few minutes to find the Russian case that I posted earlier. The most famous couple of cases in my opinion are ;Bentwaters UK and The Bob Jacobs Incident as well as this one. It's easy to find other cases but these are the most famous. Again I make the point that the evidence should not be in doubt because of the shear volume of cases. What we should be asking is why did it happen, how did it happen and is it still happening?

If UFO's went to the trouble of seeing if they could shut down missiles 40 years ago then why are they not doing that today? These are the interesting issues to me anyway.

[Tim Hebert]

Per Zoser: "although the paper trail may well be vague after all these years say with the Malmstron incident..."

For Salas and Oscar Flight...there is no paper trail. Hence the claim of a cover-up. Yet, take this into account, Blue Book investigated the Minot claims (1967 and 1968) yet did not investigate a supposedly full flight shutdown in Oscar Flight. Echo is well documented and is listed in Bernard Nalty's ICBM History. Rather odd to omit Oscar? Unless it never happened.

Bentwaters appears to have traction on both sides, but Ian Ridpath and David Clarke do a good job of making the claim that nothing happened regarding UFO activity. Admittedly, I'm not well versed in the total Bentwaters case, but only did a quick review sometime ago. Basically, eye of the beholder.

Bob Jacobs, "Big Sur UFO"? Kingston George provides a compelling rebuttal to that story. Unfortunately, the video of the Atlas launch and it's aftermath is currently no where to be found...the video would go a long way in clearing up the matter.

Zoser: "If UFO's went to the trouble of seeing if they could shut down missiles 40 years ago then why are they not doing that today?

Let's go back to Malmstrom 1967. If we, as some have proffered, are the Galaxtic "dumb asses", then why did a simple EMP suppression filter installed at all Minuteman wings and Titan II wings (Project Loggy Ebb) resulted in no future full flight/squadron shutdowns?

Edited June 25, 2012 by Tim Hebert

[bmk1245]

[...]

Let's go back to Malmstrom 1967. If we, as some have proffered, are the Galaxtic "dumb asses", then why did a simple EMP suppression filter installed at all Minuteman wings and Titan II wings (Project Loggy Ebb) resulted in no future full flight/squadron shutdowns?

Figments of imagination can't do a thing, but believers seem to be stranded in imagination world and they will come up with any pants recoloring excuses...

[Captain Zim]

Well Hello Zim!!

Back from the dead mate, it sure has been a long time between drinks. I hope you have been well.

I think that establishing a stealth capability would follow the confirmation that we are being visited by alien craft. Guessing what it might be seems putting the cart before the horse there to me? I am more pointing at the amateur contingent than anything, it is a major obstacle for any visitor to overcome with regards to stealth.

Good to be back! Haven't gotten around to replying to this particular post, apologies.

True, it is putting the cart before the horse. But if these are vehicles controlled by intelligent beings, then I think that the only reasonable assumption is that they operate with some degree of stealth and limit contact. Otherwise we'd already be giving them our natural resources for beads, and winding up dispirited, impoverished and strung out on alien narcotics.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Captain Zim

[zoser]

Here is an excellent testimony. Four helicopter personnel are flying from Port Columbus Airport to Mansfield Ohio in 1973 when the encounter a UFO. Staff Sargent Coyne recounts the story. Only 5 minutes long. I have the link to the whole documentary if anyone is interested:

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[/media] Edited June 25, 2012 by zoser