Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Yamato

A Battle of Two Muslim Women

81 posts in this topic

[media=]

[/media]

My perspective favors the girl in the niqab, and I see no good reason why my perspective shouldn't have equal consideration under the law.

I don't agree with the title of the video incidentally. These are both Muslim women and I'm not sure who "lost" the debate. The point of discussion I would take here, is that different perspectives must be empowered in a free civil society. Our founders paid considerable attention to our freedom of religion in particular, and presciently so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

My perspective favors the girl in the niqab

Tell us something we do not already know..lol

This is going to be one of those - You western society people are foolish kind of threads, forgetting that it is set in western society lol ......I can feel it ....* sigh* :P

Both woman have the right.. But if it gets banned.. so be it...it is not the end of the world...But I know many Muslims will create trouble if it is banned for sure...There would be a whole bunch of complaints all saying - What about religious freedom? What you will not hear is - What about other freedom.. the freedom to ban what they like ? Ohh no. lol * fire in the hole* lol

Edited by Beckys_Mom
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We do seem to be running into each other this morning, Y.

I see no good reason why my perspective shouldn't have equal consideration under the law.

You did in your other thread,

Oh my Americanism is showing. I'm sure that the Xenophobia responsible for so many pop culture myths about the Qu'ran extends beyond my country's borders so this is really for everyone.

You're American. The law in question is (was?) France's. France offers freedom of conscience, but its constiutuon also guarantees its citizens a secular republic. In French law, secularism permits substantial legal restrictions on public, not private, expressions of religious sentiment. In contrast, American law guarantees free expression of religion.

Both women in your video were located in the United States. Either one can wear whatever they like here. One of the women aspires to change the American law. She'll probably be able to get laws that say that drivers licence photos must be unveiled and that veiled women must cooperate with TSA agents at airports. Walking down the street in America? Not a chance.

(Hi, BM. long time, no see. Welcome back.)

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both women in your video were located in the United States. Either one can wear whatever they like here. One of the women aspires to change the American law. She'll probably be able to get laws that say that drivers licence photos must be unveiled and that veiled women must cooperate with TSA agents at airports. Walking down the street in America? Not a chance.

(Hi, BM. long time, no see. Welcome back.)

Thanks eighty

I find it sad when in today's world so many will still want to live in the ancient times. and not move on...Even if they are living in a more civilised society...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We do seem to be running into each other this morning, Y.

You did in your other thread,

You're American. The law in question is (was?) France's. France offers freedom of conscience, but its constiutuon also guarantees its citizens a secular republic. In French law, secularism permits substantial legal restrictions on public, not private, expressions of religious sentiment. In contrast, American law guarantees free expression of religion.

Both women in your video were located in the United States. Either one can wear whatever they like here. One of the women aspires to change the American law. She'll probably be able to get laws that say that drivers licence photos must be unveiled and that veiled women must cooperate with TSA agents at airports. Walking down the street in America? Not a chance.

I'm American; are you?

I did what in my other thread?

The legislative battle up for discussion here is happening in France, not the US. Laws imposing on Islam in particular extend across the borders of the US, a relevant point to the other thread when I said that the video there is important to everyone, and not just Americans.

Even if we're not subjected to these laws personally we still have positions on this issue. The difference between the women is to what degree Muslim women or anyone else should be discriminated against by their state due to their preference in clothing. Do I support France arresting protesters for speaking out about their religious freedoms? No of course not, and why would you do that?

The woman wearing the niqab expressed that she has no problem with driver's licenses or TSA agents at airports and so bringing that up doesn't broach her position, my position, or even a difference between the two women. There's no argument there so let's not get into the habit of creating one out of nowhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it sad when in today's world so many will still want to live in the ancient times. and not move on...Even if they are living in a more civilised society...

Then be who you want to be confident in your superiority and let others do the same. Discrimination is what's sad in today's world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Then be who you want to be confident in your superiority and let others do the same. Discrimination is what's sad in today's world.

What the heck? What do you mean by - Let others do the same? Who the heck is suggesting they cant?? Do you normally read what you want to read Or are you just making an effort for my sake?

You fall into the usual trap, that makes you see what is not there and you still hit on it... No one is saying they cannot do squat... And if many of us believe it is wrong to do a certain thing or live a certain way.. then that is our right to say so.... I do not get why people like yourself will post up something like this, expecting opinions.. then when you get opinions you do not agree with.. you peg them as if they have said something and they dont have a right..

Discrimination is sad.. and you just demonstrated discrimination...you discriminate against our rights because our opinions do not match yours..and so you peg them into something that is not said... We have a right to call it how we see it like it or not... So quit adding in things that is not said... I never suggested the woman couldn't do what she liked...I gave an opinion..and I stand by it..

Edited by Beckys_Mom
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What the heck? What do you mean by - Let others do the same? Who the heck is suggesting they cant?? Do you normally read what you want to read Or are you just making an effort for my sake?

You fall into the usual trap, that makes you see what is not there and you still hit on it... No one is saying they cannot do squat... And if many of us believe it is wrong to do a certain thing or live a certain way.. then that is our right to say so.... I do not get why people like yourself will post up something like this, expecting opinions.. then when you get opinions you do not agree with.. you peg them as if they have said something and they dont have a right..

Discrimination is sad.. and you just demonstrated discrimination...you discriminate against our rights because our opinions do not match yours..and so you peg them into something that is not said... We have a right to call it how we see it like it or not... So quit adding in things that is not said... I never suggested the woman couldn't do what she liked...

I respect your opinion so long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's freedom of expression, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion. Let's all wear what we want to wear (i.e. let's not discriminate). I don't have a position that discriminates against anyone with force of government. legally or otherwise. You shouldn't be arrested like the Muslim protesters for disagreeing with me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I respect your opinion so long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's freedom of expression, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion. Let's all wear what we want to wear (i.e. let's not discriminate). I don't have a position that discriminates against anyone with force of government. legally or otherwise. You shouldn't be arrested like the Muslim protesters for disagreeing with me.

You are at it again .. If (meaning IF as in hypothetical)I or anyone else were to protest a belief.. we own the right...just as much as people own the rights to hold a belief.. Your discriminating ideas say - they have but we dont..when you say especially if it doesn't infringe on someone elses freedom of expression, speech and religion...<-- you fail to see the irony of your statement? When you try and tell others they cannot use their own freedom of expression and speech . And I do not for the love of me get why you turn a blind eye to what is really said and make up what you want ia post to say just to argue?

How come you completely ignored this post...

Both women have the right..

My post says both have a right.. you blanked it out to pin my words to something you make up in your head ..... I notice we are talking about mind trickery in another thread.. I guess from reading your made up idea..you are dabbling in mind tricks? Your mind is telling you my posts meant something else lol..

Edited by Beckys_Mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a question Yamato. In Muslim countries a law which is the opposite in place. Women HAVE to cover up. They have no choice as it's a crime if they don't. Do you have a problem with that law too?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are at it again .. If (meaning IF as in hypothetical)I or anyone else were to protest a belief.. we own the right...just as much as people own the rights to hold a belief.. Your discriminating ideas say - they have but we dont..when you say especially if it doesn't infringe on someone elses freedom of expression, speech and religion...<-- you fail to see the irony of your statement? When you try and tell others they cannot use their own freedom of expression and speech . And I do not for the love of me get why you turn a blind eye to what is really said and make up what you want ia post to say just to argue?

How come you completely ignored this post...

My post says both have a right.. you blanked it out to pin my words to something you make up in your head ..... I notice we are talking about mind trickery in another thread.. I guess from reading your made up idea..you are dabbling in mind tricks? Your mind is telling you my posts meant something else lol..

I'm fleshing out my position which is based on what we actually have a right to do. We don't have a right to infringe on anyone else's rights; and preventing that from happening is the primary role of government.

I've never said that someone cannot use their own freedom of speech; what a preposterous notion! We're free to say whatever we like, barring moderator intervention.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a question Yamato. In Muslim countries a law which is the opposite in place. Women HAVE to cover up. They have no choice as it's a crime if they don't. Do you have a problem with that law too?

Clothing should never be discriminated against by the force of government and I can't think of a single exception to this, and it doesn't have to be a Muslim country but certainly could be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was kind of hoping this "battle" involved a large pit of jello, mud or oil or something...

What a let down...

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was kind of hoping this "battle" involved a large pit of jello, mud or oil or something...

What a let down...

You speak to the "pinnacle of piety" vs. "pinnacle of objectification" dynamic in the video. Culturally we are far more accepting of sexual objectification than we are religious. Which is just fine, again, provided the government doesn't discriminate against us, especially by banning our freedoms as this case study does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Clothing should never be discriminated against by the force of government and I can't think of a single exception to this, and it doesn't have to be a Muslim country but certainly could be.

I am a little torn between the right to be veiled or not.

I can't speak for France but in the United States:

  • On all identification that requires a photo ID, the picture must be taken unveiled.
  • If driving a car they must be unveiled so the driver and passengers can be seen. This is the same as in our laws that limit the amount of tinting on the windows so police officers can see in. You don't really have a right to privacy in your own vehicle out in public.
  • If entering any stores they must remain unveiled. Stores have surveillance cameras for a reason....to identify shoplifters or robbers.
  • Banks and other places (especially large venues) will also not let you in because it is the same as wearing a mask.

On the flip side:

  • They should be able to wear them at home or at friends houses.
  • Just walking down the street might be acceptable ( Can't think of a reason why not.)

But , if a woman wearing the veil tried to talk to me, I would ask her to remove it or I probably wouldn't speak to her. When I talk to someone in person I want to see their eyes and their facial expressions. These convey a lot about a person and add meaning to the conversation. For this same reason I don't like talking to people wearing sunglasses and always remove mine if in a conversation.

If they can live with these rules then I am OK with it......although I've never actually seen anyone wear the veil in person.......only in pictures or on TV.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I'm fleshing out my position which is based on what we actually have a right to do. (SNIP)

No one is stopping you from fleshing your position..but you can do that easy without directing it all at me... You have not addressed my posts..

Edited by Beckys_Mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was kind of hoping this "battle" involved a large pit of jello, mud or oil or something...

What a let down...

Ha ha what is it with some men and women fighting in jello? :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am a little torn between the right to be veiled or not.

I can't speak for France but in the United States:

  • On all identification that requires a photo ID, the picture must be taken unveiled.
  • If driving a car they must be unveiled so the driver and passengers can be seen. This is the same as in our laws that limit the amount of tinting on the windows so police officers can see in. You don't really have a right to privacy in your own vehicle out in public.
  • If entering any stores they must remain unveiled. Stores have surveillance cameras for a reason....to identify shoplifters or robbers.
  • Banks and other places (especially large venues) will also not let you in because it is the same as wearing a mask.

On the flip side:

  • They should be able to wear them at home or at friends houses.
  • Just walking down the street might be acceptable ( Can't think of a reason why not.)

But , if a woman wearing the veil tried to talk to me, I would ask her to remove it or I probably wouldn't speak to her. When I talk to someone in person I want to see their eyes and their facial expressions. These convey a lot about a person and add meaning to the conversation. For this same reason I don't like talking to people wearing sunglasses and always remove mine if in a conversation.

If they can live with these rules then I am OK with it......although I've never actually seen anyone wear the veil in person.......only in pictures or on TV.

Agree with your post mostly... but the odds of a veiled woman coming up and speaking to you are next to nil...

They really are not encouraged to talk to strangers (unless they have no choice)... When I was in Iraq, troops

out on patrol were told to not talk directly to women, but to get a male family member to 'relay' the message, even

though she might be standing right there yelling at you...

This didn't always work of course - but that was the cultural expectation...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree with your post mostly... but the odds of a veiled woman coming up and speaking to you are next to nil...

They really are not encouraged to talk to strangers (unless they have no choice)... When I was in Iraq, troops

out on patrol were told to not talk directly to women, but to get a male family member to 'relay' the message, even

though she might be standing right there yelling at you...

This didn't always work of course - but that was the cultural expectation...

Wow that is so weird and very odd way to live... I find it hard to wrap my head around that... Go figure

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one is stopping you from fleshing your position..but you can do that easy without directing it all at me... You have not addressed my posts..

I'm not directing anything at you that I'm not directing at everyone else including myself. There's no reason to take it personally. As for not addressing your posts, I'm sorry if you feel that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not directing anything at you that I'm not directing at everyone else including myself. There's no reason to take it personally. As for not addressing your posts, I'm sorry if you feel that way.

You quoted my posts .. When we quote someone's post, shot in the dark but that usually means we are addressing their posts lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

so what i can conclude and understand is that they might ban islamic traditional cover

due to the fear of that cover is being used as mean to hide personality

such as mentioned cases of bank robbery or shoplifting etc etc etc

but then we are missing the point here .. is that this religious cover is being USED by your corrupted societies

by YOUR corrupted individals to do corrupted deeds

so basically you're blaming the islamic cover or clothing on the actions the might be done by the filth of your societies

your own theifs and murderers etc etc etc and you know you got alot of those worthless criminals

that enough for you to fear that a tradtional or religious clothes that cover's one face might be a danger

because YOUR own socitiy would use it as way to crime " which other countries with islamic majorities have those cover religious clothes everywhere

and it wasn't used or been abused by robberies or such actions "

therefore the problem root is within your own western society not the islamic clothes

and personally i think if they wanna ban them .. at least have the guts to put it the same way i did above

and say the truth that " our society is way too filthy and might used such code of clothes to do nasty crimes "

. don't blame me now on being harsh ... freedom of speech !

Edited by Knight Of Shadows

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree with your post mostly... but the odds of a veiled woman coming up and speaking to you are next to nil...

They really are not encouraged to talk to strangers (unless they have no choice)... When I was in Iraq, troops

out on patrol were told to not talk directly to women, but to get a male family member to 'relay' the message, even

though she might be standing right there yelling at you...

This didn't always work of course - but that was the cultural expectation...

In a predominantly Muslim country I would agree with you. But in a western country you never know. Some that wear the veil might be a little more westernized than one would think. Odds are they wouldn't but again, you never know.....

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ha ha what is it with some men and women fighting in jello? :P

Copious quantities of beer helps...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am a little torn between the right to be veiled or not.

I can't speak for France but in the United States:

  • On all identification that requires a photo ID, the picture must be taken unveiled.
  • If driving a car they must be unveiled so the driver and passengers can be seen. This is the same as in our laws that limit the amount of tinting on the windows so police officers can see in. You don't really have a right to privacy in your own vehicle out in public.
  • If entering any stores they must remain unveiled. Stores have surveillance cameras for a reason....to identify shoplifters or robbers.
  • Banks and other places (especially large venues) will also not let you in because it is the same as wearing a mask.

On the flip side:

  • They should be able to wear them at home or at friends houses.
  • Just walking down the street might be acceptable ( Can't think of a reason why not.)

But , if a woman wearing the veil tried to talk to me, I would ask her to remove it or I probably wouldn't speak to her. When I talk to someone in person I want to see their eyes and their facial expressions. These convey a lot about a person and add meaning to the conversation. For this same reason I don't like talking to people wearing sunglasses and always remove mine if in a conversation.

If they can live with these rules then I am OK with it......although I've never actually seen anyone wear the veil in person.......only in pictures or on TV.

I acknowledge why you're torn and think you've thought it out well. Your laundry list is prudent, yet government is great at finding exceptions to our liberties just like that, and its intentions for doing so are always good as I'm sure yours are. We can broach the topic of security issues, but it's an extracurricular activity not framed by the differences between these two women in the video. On this matter, I again agree with the woman in the niqab, and with you as well. I agree security is an important consideration in some circumstances and in those, we should show our faces.

That said, I can wear a wig, a hat, grow a beard and dye it, wear sunglasses that even hide my eyes, and hide more of my appearance than a woman in a niqab and yet I don't hear any rush of agreement to ban such preferences in my appearance in the grand quest that is always the federal government making us "safe". It's more specific to Muslims than that, it's more discriminatory than that. Rules about going into stores isn't the federal government's business, that is typically a matter of store policy. If businesses want to discriminate and risk shooting themselves in the foot in the pursuit of security, that's their responsibility. Taking risks is a business's job.

Using bad words in speech, speaking dishonestly, or hiding one's true feelings with false emotional expressions wouldn't be conducive to a quality conversation either, but likewise, I don't want government enforcing legislation that seeks to control or ban those behaviors. Maybe behind her veil, you have to judge her by what she says and not what she looks like. Don't tell me that can't be used to advantage by some women. I can understand why some women want to wear clothes like this and I respect their right to do so. Our visual brains may feel deprived by that, but our auditory brains could use the workout!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.