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Timonthy

Do people believe in religion because they...

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Posted (edited)

can't comprehend science/logic/reality, or want an easy explanation for everything?

Let's get serious.

Religion, the paranormal etc. are very convenient explanations for confusing things in our lives.

The ability to create illogical and unsupported explanations is one that we all posses. Any person can dream up their own fantastic solutions to things that may be otherwise explained by more logical means.

The only things that have ever been proven have been through scientific means. And once they're proven they don't seem as special anymore to the people who believed otherwise.

So:

Is it taking the easy way out by believing in religion or otherwise?

Does it make life easier neglecting evidence and blindly following unsubstantiated beliefs?

Are people just not willing to accept that the truths in science etc. are hard to understand and that we will never understand everything?

I'm willing to accept that there may be more to life, and if so I'll shake God (that's any God, belief system, or otherwise) by the hand at heavens gate, congratulate him on his ongoing grand deception, and he'll accept me for who I am because he will appreciate I've lived logically and had no evidence to support his existence.

It's actually pretty amazing to consider how insignificant we are in relation to everything that we know exists. And everything that we know, our knowledge of the extent of the universe, could be worth but a grain of sand in relation to what's really out there.

There are answers for everything. But we will never find them all.

Can you appreciate that everything could be possibly explained logically?

Edited by Timonthy
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I don't believe we will ever be able to logically explain the existence of the human soul.

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I don't believe we will ever be able to logically explain the existence of the human soul.

Yeah that concept is definitely far beyond us!

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I don't believe we will ever be able to logically explain the existence of the human soul.

I wasn't aware that the someone had actually found a "human soul" for it to be explained as anything other than fantasy.

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I wasn't aware that the someone had actually found a "human soul" for it to be explained as anything other than fantasy.

They haven't, so continue believing it is a fantasy.

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As with everything, I don't think it's as simple as that.

A particular colleague of mine is a young earth creationist. Recently he came out with a comment that I found really funny at the time. He said "I don't trust scientists. They're always changing their minds". But thinking about it, all he was doing was expressing a very human need. The need to have a definitive answer. Religion provides this, and clearly he felt that this gave religion the edge over science. He couldn't recognise that when scientists modify their theories, this is actually a strength of the process. He could only see it as inconsistent and therefore unreliable.

In answer, I don't think people are religious because they can't comprehend science. I think they're religious because religion provides an answer. (And purpose and meaning - as well as other things - before anyone jumps in to correct me).

What interests me more is those Christians who do accept scientific findings. Those that accept modern cosmology, evolution and so forth. It seems to me that these things are incompatible with basic Christian beliefs. The belief in a perfect creation, the fall of man and Christ-given redemption. These things don't seem consistent with man emerging from purposeless interactions of matter.

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They haven't, so continue believing it is a fantasy.

I will. Unless, of course, you can show me a soul?

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I wasn't aware that the someone had actually found a "human soul" for it to be explained as anything other than fantasy.

I take it you've never been in love or witnessed the birth of you're child.

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I take it you've never been in love or witnessed the birth of you're child.

Even though both things evoke a strong emotion (a chemical process coupled with basic human instinct), that doesn't by default suggest the presence of a soul.

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Posted (edited)

I take it you've never been in love or witnessed the birth of you're child.

I've done one of those (multiple times), but I don't see how that has anything to do with a soul. Can you produce one for me?

Edited by Imaginarynumber1
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I've done one of those (multiple times), but I don't see how that has anything to do with a soul. Can you produce one for me?

Congratulations,and no I cannot produce one for scientific scrutiny. But its still there.

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As with everything, I don't think it's as simple as that.

A particular colleague of mine is a young earth creationist. Recently he came out with a comment that I found really funny at the time. He said "I don't trust scientists. They're always changing their minds". But thinking about it, all he was doing was expressing a very human need. The need to have a definitive answer. Religion provides this, and clearly he felt that this gave religion the edge over science. He couldn't recognise that when scientists modify their theories, this is actually a strength of the process. He could only see it as inconsistent and therefore unreliable.

In answer, I don't think people are religious because they can't comprehend science. I think they're religious because religion provides an answer. (And purpose and meaning - as well as other things - before anyone jumps in to correct me).

What interests me more is those Christians who do accept scientific findings. Those that accept modern cosmology, evolution and so forth. It seems to me that these things are incompatible with basic Christian beliefs. The belief in a perfect creation, the fall of man and Christ-given redemption. These things don't seem consistent with man emerging from purposeless interactions of matter.

To me also it seems too much of a contrast. And whenever I have seen anyone try to explain the two co-existing, they just put forward convenient exceptions, however these also contradict the original argument.

Modern day, it is very hard for religion to change (aside from dropping traditions). It would have been a feat in itself having people believe you spoke 'the word of the Lord' back in the day, but now seemingly impossible - especially to have a widespread effect.

The only things we see are examples of further exceptions such as that: 'alien life would be part of God's creation' - traditionally this would have not worked, however modern religion is having to bend to fit logic as we learn more.

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I take it you've never been in love or witnessed the birth of you're child.

Strength of emotion is not evidence of the existence of a soul. There is no evidence, it's just another strange concept...

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Congratulations,and no I cannot produce one for scientific scrutiny. But its still there.

So you have no evidence of a soul and you cannot produce one. In fact, no one can produce one and no one can provide evidence of one. I think it's pretty safe to assume that something with no empirical evidence isn't real. Like the giant turtle upon whose shell the Earth rests, right?

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Like the giant turtle upon whose shell the Earth rests, right?

Yeah, apparently it's turtles all the way down. :lol:

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Yeah, apparently it's turtles all the way down. :lol:

:tu: I was waiting on that.

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So you have no evidence of a soul and you cannot produce one. In fact, no one can produce one and no one can provide evidence of one. I think it's pretty safe to assume that something with no empirical evidence isn't real. Like the giant turtle upon whose shell the Earth rests, right?

So what you're saying is that the earth sits on the back of a turtle. Wow I thought I had heard everything. Can you prove that? Empirically?

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So what you're saying is that the earth sits on the back of a turtle. Wow I thought I had heard everything. Can you prove that? Empirically?

Yes, because I have been in love. Makes sense, right?

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What interests me more is those Christians who do accept scientific findings. Those that accept modern cosmology, evolution and so forth. It seems to me that these things are incompatible with basic Christian beliefs. The belief in a perfect creation, the fall of man and Christ-given redemption. These things don't seem consistent with man emerging from purposeless interactions of matter.

As one of those "christians" I could say that the mechanics of existence in the material realm are available to be explored and explained by science in their entirety without having any impact on the spiritual aspects of existence that give rise to faith and belief in God.

I see no problem at all and applaud scientific discovery as an evolution in human thought and opportunity for providence, God helps those who help themselves put at it's simplest.

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As one of those "christians" I could say that the mechanics of existence in the material realm are available to be explored and explained by science in their entirety without having any impact on the spiritual aspects of existence that give rise to faith and belief in God.

I see no problem at all and applaud scientific discovery as an evolution in human thought and opportunity for providence, God helps those who help themselves put at it's simplest.

Hi Libstak,

I understand that and completely respect your right to your beliefs. I see no logical contradiction between embracing a belief in a god and acceptance of established scientific principles. Although as you're probably aware I don't personally believe in God.

However, my enquiry was about how this impacts directly on the acceptance of basic tenets of Christianity. As I understand it (and I'm happy to be put right on this) Christ died so that we may find redemption for our sins. And humans are sinners as a direct result of the fall of man when Adam and Eve chose to disobey God. Before this, God's creation was perfect.

It appears to me that one has to accept the creation as told in Genesis to believe all of this. I understand that young earth creationists do so, and have read that they don't think too much of Christians that see it is metaphor or allegorical.

To me, a Christian such as yourself has a much greater rational grip of the world. But is the creationist right to view you as not a 'true-believer'

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So you have no evidence of a soul and you cannot produce one. In fact, no one can produce one and no one can provide evidence of one. I think it's pretty safe to assume that something with no empirical evidence isn't real. Like the giant turtle upon whose shell the Earth rests, right?

By those standards gravity does not exist. We measure things by their effects. Just because we can't reduce the effect to something understandable dosnt mean it dosn't exist. The soul is that pinpoint of self Awareness and hall of mirrors behind the eyes. and no we do not fully understand why it exists as aposed us just being a non sentient biological robot.

Your reasoning of why there is no soul is a Petitio Principii fallacy.

It is not illogical to be spiritual or religious. But this is a standard topic on these forums and I'm just tired of repeating myself. Look around a bit, you might be surprised to discovery spirituality is for more robust than you think it is.

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Hi Libstak,

I understand that and completely respect your right to your beliefs. I see no logical contradiction between embracing a belief in a god and acceptance of established scientific principles. Although as you're probably aware I don't personally believe in God.

However, my enquiry was about how this impacts directly on the acceptance of basic tenets of Christianity. As I understand it (and I'm happy to be put right on this) Christ died so that we may find redemption for our sins. And humans are sinners as a direct result of the fall of man when Adam and Eve chose to disobey God. Before this, God's creation was perfect.

It appears to me that one has to accept the creation as told in Genesis to believe all of this. I understand that young earth creationists do so, and have read that they don't think too much of Christians that see it is metaphor or allegorical.

To me, a Christian such as yourself has a much greater rational grip of the world. But is the creationist right to view you as not a 'true-believer'

They may well see it that way but I see ...

"Thou shalt not judge lest thou be judged, for in whatsoever manner ye judge so shall ye be judged"

"As you sow, so shall you reap"

Mechanical laws of cause and effect whose profound effect on the human spirit are so easily ignored in the battle to be "right".

More powerful and of true inspirational value to me are:

"Love one another as I have loved you" personified and shown to be absolutely true in Christ by his final words before his death "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".

I follow that which is honest, humble and has integrity in spirit when I choose to follow the teachings of christ. I also think there is enough in just those simple quotes to involve my mind and life to a life time's work with no time left over for the judging of the choices others may choose to make for themselves. I think self knowledge aka: removing the log from my own eye is paramount - what comes after that only the clear sighted could tell us. :w00t:

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Posted (edited)

I take it you've never been in love or witnessed the birth of you're child.

I have given birth twice now... Actually most recently just had a new son ( 5 weeks ago ) .. and I always thought what it would be like for me to be able to see my child being born? I would have loved to have seen it...but it is a bit awkward lol.. My husband did though, he said it was overwhelming, teared up full of joy.... He was lucky.. I envied him lol <-- one reason why envy is not wrong ha ha ..I envied him in a good way...

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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Posted (edited)

So what you're saying is that the earth sits on the back of a turtle. Wow I thought I had heard everything. Can you prove that? Empirically?

Turtles all the way down" is a jocular expression of the infinite regress problem in cosmology posed by the "unmoved mover" paradox. The phrase was popularized by Stephen Hawking in 1988. The "turtle" metaphor in the anecdote represents a popular notion of a "primitive cosmological myth", viz. theflat earth supported on the back of a World Turtle .. .http://en.wikipedia....ll_the_way_down

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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Turtles all the way down" is a jocular expression of the infinite regress problem in cosmology posed by the "unmoved mover" paradox. The phrase was popularized by Stephen Hawking in 1988. The "turtle" metaphor in the anecdote represents a popular notion of a "primitive cosmological myth", viz. theflat earth supported on the back of a World Turtle .. .http://en.wikipedia....ll_the_way_down

Thank you, never heard that expression before. I can be taught!
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