Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 3
Timonthy

Do people believe in religion because they...

148 posts in this topic

It's a fact because you are "awareness," or soul.

It's also a fact your awareness can be supressed or turned off. Does that mean you cease to exist?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My dis like of religion spans more then your trust in it believe me. Get off your high horse for a second as you seem to think you are some speaker for a god I nor many, half the world does not believe in. so please. I see you like to use god to attack people on a personal level, very typical yet not suprising.

Where was my personal attack? What I said was just an observation of what you said. You characterized everything I said in my initial response as a 'rant.' I thought there was a lot of good info in there. So, no, saying that you are antagonistic toward religion, Christianity, in general, is not a personal attack. It is an observation of the evident.

Your assumption god has failed me is evidience of your ignorance of a none believer just because one is told to believe with nothing to believe in. Why do you think that is a good tacktic....

My assumption? You said it yourself that God failed.

But as to what you said about being told to believe with nothing to believe in, I wouldn't tell you to argue against your logic.

Tell me where god has not failed and belief in a deity has succeded.

It depends on what you mean by failed or succeed. If you notice, you are establishing a frame work of thought when you make that accusation. If by failed you that he didn't end corruption, mandate how the rich use their money, and end the rage of gangs, then perhaps God has failed. And that is a good thing. Because those people have chances to repent. If he succeeded, I get a feeling you would call him a barbarian.

If by success you mean that God has inspired millions of missionaries to look after the Ugandans, Kenyans, Columbians, Cubans, Africans, and many more, then I would say that God has succeeded. He has loved both the good and the evil, which is a far greater success than anyone on this forum can boast of. I believe that God has succeeded.

Don`t assume I blaim a god for anything as I do not believe in a god and for better reason why would anyone. Your god is yours, organize it then it becomes mine. Religion is not a choice if you make it political and thats all religion is now, political. Hence my former coment to control.

When you inspire people to call out the corruption in their own society, which religion often does (especially Christianity), then it is always political. For those who have the better will seek to keep it from from those who seek it. In the cases of antiquity, the revolutionaries did not want freedom from the bourgeois, they wanted the freedom of the bourgeois.

I think you mean to say that when religion infringes on your rights to live life how you see fit, then it becomes a problem. Am I not correct?

What I see is not the result of atheism, but the result of upbringing, education, and experience. It is exactly because you are a Westerner that you value independence and freedom far more than, say, the Japanese. You were most likely brought up to value those things. Seeing that, are you really certain that you know the truth about God and what is important, or is it just your upbringing, education, and experience? And if the latter, is that okay?

And if okay, then aren't those you feel most apprehensive toward doing the exact same thing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

It's a fact because you are "awareness," or soul.

It is called - Consciousness..it is from the brain that is still living, which is responsible for helping us feel awareness of many things... It cannot work if you are dead, if you believe it does after you die, then it is just a belief you hold while you are still alive.. it is not proof for all to observe ( meaning scientific proof ) .. All you have been demonstrating here is a belief you hold, and it is a belief that many hold, but it can't be proven facts.. . You trying to call that proof of a soul fails ..You cannot ever prove a soul exists.. all you have going for you is a mere belief..

Just like death, it's always there. And death is part of all religions.

Death is part of life for all.. not just religions..

Like I said, I'm the right person to ask

I know you aren't... just like I know no one else is.. No man can prove the soul exists.. it is ( once again ) just part of some peoples choice of beliefs...People who believe in the afterlife and even heaven ect, will believe that the soul exists.. but it can't be proven for the living here and now to actually observe.. Everything you mention in ref to the soul is merely just you speaking about what you chose to hold beliefs in.. Facts do not have a place in supernatural beliefs ...if they did, they wouldn't be called supernatural .. I believe the soul exists, but I am well aware that it is only my choice to hold that belief..I am smart enough to know it is not proven fact...

Edited by Beckys_Mom
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course there are consequences to how we live our lives.

Not that I disagree with you, but I want to explore this matter regarding the atheist humanist: What, while claiming that life has meaning, gives him the justification to say that there is no God? Meaning is always established in an order of hierarchy. I give this computer purpose, it does not purpose itself. Its importance is assigned by me. When you remove that factor the human equation, then there is truly (in reality) no consequence to how we live our lives. As timothy said in one of his posts, we are not that significant in the grand scheme of things. If one were to look at our galaxy as a whole, they would not even notice our planet, much less the strife and agony occurring between the people there, it would justify what timothy said.

So, how can the humanist justify his claims? What grounds? Logic? Who's logic? A dead man's or one that will die? And from this ground, it appears insufficient for me to agree with. Men that question the grounds by which Christians believe question it from a worldview that has often never been criticized. It seems like a big contradiction to me. I interpret the humanist as saying what is important to him, and I see it all as a vanity if he is right. If there is no God, then by what right, other than the one we give ourselves, do we have to criticize the way others live? In the end, we will all end up the same.

Only, the consequences are in this life. What has more value?

The question I would pose then, "Is life submit to our authority that we give it meaning or does life submit to one higher that we should be given meaning?" If the former, then isn't life only as important as each man gives it and not truly important in reality? If the latter, then are we not guilty of usurping God in the lives of others?

Doing what is right because you fear the wrath of God when you're dead, or doing what is right simply because it's the right thing to do? What kind of moral high ground can someone take if they have to be threatened to behave?

I completely agree. There is no love in fear and no humanity in slavery to it. I don't think God ever intended for us to remain in fear. Christian thought did not develop along one line of thought and the history of the Christianity you often see is not a simple story. To know it may free you from weak interpretations of Christian theology.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

There's a difference between awareness versus "awareness." "Awareness" is that consciousness after the body is dead, not just in this material plane of existence.

No...that is called a belief and how you want to see it... As you cannot ever ( in the month of Sunday ) prove this... then it will remain a belief and not proven fact ... You can believe it is fact for you, but that doesn't in any way prove to everyone else that it is an actual fact.. To make it an actual scientific fact.. it would need to be something the living can actually observe.

Edited by Beckys_Mom
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As timothy said in one of his posts, we are not that significant in the grand scheme of things. If one were to look at our galaxy as a whole, they would not even notice our planet, much less the strife and agony occurring between the people there, it would justify what timothy said.

Men that question the grounds by which Christians believe question it from a worldview that has often never been criticized. It seems like a big contradiction to me. I interpret the humanist as saying what is important to him, and I see it all as a vanity if he is right. If there is no God, then by what right, other than the one we give ourselves, do we have to criticize the way others live? In the end, we will all end up the same.

The question I would pose then, "Is life submit to our authority that we give it meaning or does life submit to one higher that we should be given meaning?" If the former, then isn't life only as important as each man gives it and not truly important in reality? If the latter, then are we not guilty of usurping God in the lives of others?

Sorry to snip your post but I just wanted to address a couple of you points.

It is absolutely true to say we are relatively insignificant when viewed on a galactic scale. The actions of one individual makes not a bit of difference when seen like that. But the key word here is 'relatively'. To each of us, our lives are hugely significant and what we do with them important. We extend this to those around us. Our families and friends, and those we easily empathise with. I believe this is the key that gives our lives a moral purpose. History has shown that it is easy for people to empathise with their own "kind". The Bible demonstrates this when viewed as a text that was written for ancient Hebrews. The ten commandments clearly only referred to their own 'kind'. As humanity has become aware of other peoples we have slowly expanded our 'kind' to include all of humanity (although admittedly there are many that are lagging in this regard).

Empathy is the foundation to all morals, I believe. I think it unfair to label this view as a vanity when it clearly (at least to me) isn't. It is about treating others the way we ourselves would want to be treated by others. These are the rules by which societies were founded. None can exist without it. Regardless of how we may disagree on the source of this, I'll bet that we agree on more than we disagree when it comes to moral principles. This in itself should tell you that a higher power is not the obvious answer as to why.

This is why I find your question a little strange. Life cannot be only as important as each man gives it because we don't live isolated from each other. We can only survive by cooperating. So life is as important as the collective society gives it. Individuals that make their own rules very quickly find themselves outcast.

I completely agree. There is no love in fear and no humanity in slavery to it. I don't think God ever intended for us to remain in fear. Christian thought did not develop along one line of thought and the history of the Christianity you often see is not a simple story. To know it may free you from weak interpretations of Christian theology.

Fine. But if you need the promise of everlasting life to have 'sound' moral principles, it seems to amount to the same thing,.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No...that is called a belief and how you want to see it... As you cannot ever ( in the month of Sunday ) prove this... then it will remain a belief and not proven fact ... You can believe it is fact for you, but that doesn't in any way prove to everyone else that it is an actual fact.. To make it an actual scientific fact.. it would need to be something the living can actually observe.

To cut a long story short...

Again, like I said (the last loop), I'm the right person to ask. And I already congratualated you. You're on your way to seeing one, especially since you're so earnest about it -- that's what it takes. Oh yes, I'm not talking about that Ghost Hunters gig, either. You don't have to do this, but it would be nice if you could share your pilgrim's progress... Keep us updated, if you will.

There certainly is no "flesh is weak" in your case, as in "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." I, truly, am happy for you...but happiness is a relative term, when it comes to spirituality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Death is part of life for all.. not just religions..

Yeah, yeah -- you didn't need to dumb it down. We all know that. I was, however, talking about one of the things that bind established religions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Religion is like a massive corporation it sells belief.. People buy it, they always have...fairytales. When i was young i was attending this " Holy classes " ( 1 hour per day,5 days in a week, it is called "verouk" in our language ) i was listening how mandkind was created by god and events later that took place, When i got to primary school

( first school after kindergarden ) i learned that mankind was created via primates, than i started to make my own beliefs and learned that what church teachs is half wrong.. It is all good that they teach that person needs to be good and not selfish and not greedy etc... But history WTF! If i would read the "holy" bible i would belive it as much as i would belive Stephen Kings " the fog " ... Talking bushes, hands from the sky, water going apart so one man could walk through... right so they were aliens atferall? ( jk ) Don't need a religion to live my life seriously my money could be donated to something more real and firm.. Or if you want to give it to some homeless people i bet they will make better use of it than church...even if they go and buy a bottle of wine... Do you know what church does with you money?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Religion is like a massive corporation it sells belief.. People buy it, they always have...fairytales.

Fairytales make the truth easier to swallow. A really good story brings more but$$ in the seats. Once they're hooked, the "sky" is the limit. In the end, the Truth will set you free, kind of thing, because something in you will really dig deep to get it -- regardless of the cost. One step at a time. Edited by braveone2u

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

To cut a long story short...

Again, like I said (the last loop), I'm the right person to ask. And I already congratualated you. You're on your way to seeing one, especially since you're so earnest about it -- that's what it takes. Oh yes, I'm not talking about that Ghost Hunters gig, either. You don't have to do this, but it would be nice if you could share your pilgrim's progress... Keep us updated, if you will.

There certainly is no "flesh is weak" in your case, as in "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." I, truly, am happy for you...but happiness is a relative term, when it comes to spirituality.

You already congratulated me ? ..I am on my way to seeing one? Unless you have filmed one... then post it...other than that you have talked about your belief and not proven the soul exists...

Edited by Beckys_Mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You already congratulated me ? ..I am on my way to seeing one? Unless you have filmed one... then post it...other than that you have talked about your belief and not proven the soul exists...

As I mentioned earlier: "In order for a person to see a soul, one has to change one's destiny." Have patience, you will see one in this lifetime. Your destiny is already changing. Again, I am happy for you because I was like you at one time, believe it or not. Now, I can only say that I am ever so grateful, in spite of everything.

Peace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Your destiny is already changing. Again, I am happy for you because I was like you at one time, believe it or not. Now, I can only say that I am ever so grateful, in spite of everything.

What do you mean you are happy for me? What are you actually saying? I will see a soul? ....Are you suggesting I or someone else I know will die?

Please explain what it is you are happy about and what's with the congratulating me ? You are not clear in your posts...

Earlier in the thread someone else posted a question you might not have seen... here it is below..

braveone2u, are you saying that you have actually and literally died -- and your body decomposed? If so, could you please elaborate as to how you are now alive?

braveone2u...can you answer Karlis 's question.. for I too would like to read more of what it is you mean? Thanks in advance

Edited by Beckys_Mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I had not detected your sincerity, I would not have answered your question. I am happy for you, for you are on the road to truth. Anything less is not worthy of our time. Spirituality is about spirit, after all. There's a line in Hellbound: Hellraiser: "It wanted souls, and I brought it you. You wanted to know... And I wanted everything. Now everybody's happy."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to snip your post but I just wanted to address a couple of you points.

It is absolutely true to say we are relatively insignificant when viewed on a galactic scale. The actions of one individual makes not a bit of difference when seen like that. But the key word here is 'relatively'. To each of us, our lives are hugely significant and what we do with them important. We extend this to those around us. Our families and friends, and those we easily empathise with.

I get that, and I'm not taking that away at all. Humanists often tell Christians and other religious people that they have to provide objective facts about God before they claim that He is true. However, when a Christian asks how the humanist finds life has any meaning, he may say, "It's all personal. It's all relative." By what grounds does he make statements like that? That brings me back to my original argument.

I believe this is the key that gives our lives a moral purpose. History has shown that it is easy for people to empathise with their own "kind". The Bible demonstrates this when viewed as a text that was written for ancient Hebrews. The ten commandments clearly only referred to their own 'kind'. As humanity has become aware of other peoples we have slowly expanded our 'kind' to include all of humanity (although admittedly there are many that are lagging in this regard).

Totally. The OT was written to Jews. Scholarly research has shown that the Torah was likely written down much later than Moses. They have pointed it to the Babylonian Exile, which makes sense to the context of the books. Anyway, before I go on a tangent, yes, I believe that we all have purpose, especially in the lives of others. The New Testament testifies to that so much.

Empathy is the foundation to all morals, I believe. I think it unfair to label this view as a vanity when it clearly (at least to me) isn't.

I wasn't trying to insult what is important to you. I'm trying to speak objectively to humanists so that they can see how exactly they treat religious people often. It really is a double standard. They tell us to prove God's existence, regardless of the relevance of our arguments, yet they speak objectively about their beliefs without even blushing.

It is about treating others the way we ourselves would want to be treated by others.These are the rules by which societies were founded. None can exist without it.

No, not all.
Regardless of how we may disagree on the source of this, I'll bet that we agree on more than we disagree when it comes to moral principles. This in itself should tell you that a higher power is not the obvious answer as to why.
Not necessarily. It could go the other way around and mean that God's personality is imprinted on us all because we are made in His likeness.

This is why I find your question a little strange. Life cannot be only as important as each man gives it because we don't live isolated from each other.

I hear your arguments. I can understand how you find my question strange. I guess I don't agree totally. People die. Everything dies. That means that, while we are alive, we are interpreting everything happening to us. If that is what life having meaning is about, then doesn't the meaning of life die with us? And when the universe grows cold or resets, doesn't that make life a vanity?

Again, I'm not saying that I believe life is a vanity. I think it is very very important. I believe we are valuable, even to the least of us. And that is why I cannot buy the humanist argument. I am deeply concerned about the objective truths, things beyond our relative beliefs. Humanists are ridiculing Christians left and right on this forum because they can't provide objective information about God, and the meaning of life for that matter. And yet they don't ask for objective evidence about their own relative beliefs. People are insulting and harming each other and their reputations over this conflict. How does that point to morality?

We can only survive by cooperating. So life is as important as the collective society gives it.Individuals that make their own rules very quickly find themselves outcast.

And if we find ourselves alone, does that mean that our lives are meaningless then? We are getting to a point where, no matter how close people are, they are still feeling alone. Suicide shooting up through the roof. And if we are all so cooperative, why is it that a few individuals in the government are more and more taking over caretaker roles?

I want to know if life has purpose even when I'm at most lonely state. That is what I mean by objective. If we just talk about relative issues, then that doesn't properly address the social issues that we originally argue about.

Fine. But if you need the promise of everlasting life to have 'sound' moral principles, it seems to amount to the same thing,.

I don't need everlasting life to have sound moral principles. It isn't about that to me. At all. That is more like Tertullian's legalistic theology. I follow Iranaeus' liberation theology more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

What do you mean you are happy for me? What are you actually saying? I will see a soul? ....Are you suggesting I or someone else I know will die?

One thing about the "flow": It's not a vindictive power. In fact, It is love beyond compare. I went through harsh times because I was a hard shell to crack open...and the fact that I really asked to know the truth, without it being watered-down. It's not over yet, until it's really over.

You, on the other hand, seem like a sweet seeker. I sensed your sincerity, and I was moved. Nothing you can't handle will ever be fall you. The "flow" is not petty; It wants everyone to be free, however.

Peace.

Edited by braveone2u

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing about the "flow": It's not a vindictive power. In fact, It is love beyond compare. I went through harsh times because I was a hard shell to crack open...and the fact that I really asked to know the truth, without it being watered-down. It's not over yet, until it's really over.

You, on the other hand, seem like a sweet seeker. I sensed your sincerity, and I was moved. Nothing you can't handle will ever be fall you. The "flow" is not petty; It wants everyone to be free, however.

Peace.

Look if you cannot answer straight simple questions just say so.. you do not need to post up more weird gibberish that doesn't address a thing I have asked you.. And we know you cannot prove a soul exists.. so it is best left at that

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the OP's question, loads of answers and questions.

But i belive in what i do, see and hear, what that is, is a mystery to me.

loads of answers to it, but it leads to arguments/debates.

untill i see a god, alien, fairy whatever, then i might think, yeh fair play.

untill then mines a gin, see you on the ice.

nice post OP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look if you cannot answer straight simple questions just say so.. you do not need to post up more weird gibberish that doesn't address a thing I have asked you.. And we know you cannot prove a soul exists.. so it is best left at that

Like I said, have patience. It has something to do with your destiny. It's a process. :yes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Like I said, have patience. It has something to do with your destiny. It's a process.

Like I said, it is your own belief and nothing more...As for the dodging of questions asked by myself and others.. I feel no further need to continue this with yourself.. No offence..

Edited by Beckys_Mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like I said, it is your own belief and nothing more...As for the dodging of questions asked by myself and others.. I feel no further need to continue this with yourself.. No offence..

I take no offence when it come to you. In fact, I'm happy for you. As for dodging... I do ignore certain questions, especially when the question is redundant or not well thought out. On the other hand, I PM certain people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

You are the one making the claim. I simply ask you to prove it. You can't. You cannot provide one empirical piece of evidence for a soul, can you? No, of course you can't. And no offense, but better men than you have tried. So you may as well drop it because short of showing me a soul in some measurable capacity, you will never convince me that it is not anymore fictitious than the giant turtle that lives under my couch.

Good post.. I think sometimes people get mixed up in what a belief and what facts really are..So if you ask someone to prove something they have claimed to be fact.. and they give you the run a round? That makes their side of the argument look weaker...and they cannot see it.. I prefer talking with the religious folk who fully understand what a belief is, and they admit it is their belief..at least they are being most rational about it and it makes the discussion so much easier......But you will always get a few that cannot ever understand the difference and it goes down hill fast .

Edited by Beckys_Mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Good post.. I think sometimes people get mixed up in what a belief and what facts really are..So if you ask someone to prove something they have claimed to be fact.. and they give you the run a round? That makes their side of the argument look weaker...and they cannot see it.. I prefer talking with the religious folk who fully understand what a belief is, and they admit it is their belief..at least they are being most rational about it and it makes the discussion so much easier......But you will always get a few that cannot ever understand the difference and it goes down hill fast ..It does get a bit daft at times...

I have a few religious friends that I discuss things with regularly and they never just say "It's true" or whatever and plug their ears. I don't know why I even let this last exchange go on for so long.

Not one person has been able to give an example \opf a soul or a way to measure one. They just cover their ears and try to scream louder. It's just sad. Whatever happened to backing up your claims? I've noticed a lot people doing this on here the past few weeks. They just make outlandish claims and then just keep saying it's true, like if they say it enough it will be.

I dunno, I'm rambling. I'm just gonna go to the bar.

Edited by Imaginarynumber1
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I have a few religious friends that I discuss things with regularly and they never just say "It's true" or whatever and plug their ears. I don't know why I even let this last exchange go on for so long.

I have just put an end to one the same as yours previously in this thread..It was going nowhere and so I moved on...I never see any point in dragging on something that goes nowhere and no answers ever given..it is pointless.. I would rather if a person was honest and they said - "Well it is my belief that yadda yadda" and so on.. At least when they state it is a belief, you can say - fair enough and let it be..

I for one believe we have a soul..but see that is just a belief I hold.. I cannot tell you for sure we have them..I sure as heck cannot go proving it to you or anyone like you..so with that, all I can tell you is - it is just something I believe in..

Not one person has been able to give an example \opf a soul or a way to measure one. They just cover their ears and try to scream louder

I know what you mean..But see when they do that, it is proof they have no idea how or what to do next.. If I ever do meet someone who can explain more and give more answers, then it would be most interesting.. I love it more when people post up what they call facts and they put effort into explaining, this gives you more to think about, and it makes it worthwhile.......But to cover their ears when asked for proof of their factual claims.. is making them look so foolish and they don't see it..

Whatever happened to backing up your claims? I've noticed a lot people doing this on here the past few weeks. They just make outlandish claims and then just keep saying it's true, like if they say it enough it will be.

I have no idea...normally when you make a claim, you at least back it with something others can read and understand, it kinna helps ya know? OR you point out that the claim you made is just part of your belief.. at least you are being straight with others about it....... I now just move on when I see no real answers or further explaining is provided when asked.. I sometimes think people that do this only do so knowing you will get annoyed and end it ...it is their only way to get out..lol.... And others who do it, simply don't understand what they have landed themselves into, it could be that they never thought that far ahead and didn't think anyone would ask them to back their claims? Which is a bit silly I know..but you will always meet at least a few in your time...

I love to watch people like that on TV debate shows. ( usually old ones with Jeremy Paxton ) . They make some stupid claim.. the other will say - "Can you back that up?"...then they sit looking so awkward and freak out and start yelling and showing anger and it gets out of hand.. Some will act the politician and give the other person the run around and not answer the questions, thinking it will put the person off, but in reality looking at them react like that over a simple question.. they do not realise they are looking so weakened by it all .

Edited by Beckys_Mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a few religious friends that I discuss things with regularly and they never just say "It's true" or whatever and plug their ears. I don't know why I even let this last exchange go on for so long.

Not one person has been able to give an example \opf a soul or a way to measure one. They just cover their ears and try to scream louder. It's just sad. Whatever happened to backing up your claims? I've noticed a lot people doing this on here the past few weeks. They just make outlandish claims and then just keep saying it's true, like if they say it enough it will be.

I dunno, I'm rambling. I'm just gonna go to the bar.

I don't think there is any 100% way to define a soul...in the dictionary it has couple different meanings, so I think it's just one of those things that is up to the individual to decide what they want to believe it is. I don't know that any which way either you view it as a spiritual thing or part of your conscience or whatever, is going to be right or wrong as long as you have a beautiful one;) Now what bar are we going to number1??? Hehe!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 3

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.