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Raptor Witness

Greek elections June 17, 2012

34 posts in this topic

I hope the people of Greece have the fortitude to resist the austerity measures that Germany is demanding of them. After all, when the European Union was proposed, it was understood that some states were more productive. It seems unfair to expect the Greeks to change their cultural differences and adopt a German model simply because the bankers have almost single handedly wrecked the prosperity engine.

Like the Arab spring, the people's hatred of the status quo will soon boil over into a fierce battle for a new government. The sooner Greece is removed from the EU, the sooner she can compete and regain her freedom.

As it stands now, she is held hostage by German bankers. If they choose to pay the ransom, they get what they deserve.

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Difficult one for them. They seem to want their cake and eat it.

Whatever the result I hope for the people that Greece recovers quickly.

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Posted (edited)

unfair to expect the Greeks to change their cultural differences

Its not so much cultural differences as they want to live the lazy life and have europe (germany) bale them out and pay for their lazy lifestyle.

Edited by Bavarian Raven

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Posted (edited)

Its not so much cultural differences as they want to live the lazy life and have europe (germany) bale them out and pay for their lazy lifestyle.

They've been leaning towards communism for years, which is a failed economic plan.

Anytime you limit the merits of talent, you go against the nature of men.

However, what they must be concerned with now, is far greater than the dangers of extreme socialism.

When capitalism fails, it has a reset button, but no one is ready to push it, for fear of riots and runs on banking institutions.

When the Great Depression hit the U.S. in the 1930's, the Europeans were surprised that no revolution came of it.

They will have their revolution, but it doesn't have to be bloody. For their sake, I hope it's not.

Trying extreme socialism may be a temporary way to avoid bloodshed. That's another way of hitting the reset buttom, without causing as much short term pain.

When the Greeks return to capitalism, they will be more robust, and emerge again with a renewed competitive spirit. The capitalists need to get out of the way for awhile.

The German bankers need to let Greece leave the Euro, or I predict more bloodshed.

These people conquered the world. They can kill their captors, just as easily.

Edited by Raptor Witness

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How exactly is a country that is basically built on the back of tourism, which in modern Europe is dead easy, bankrupt? Like Egypt, there'd have to be millions/billions in Euros coming in from the tourists where has the *cough*graft*cough* gone?

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How exactly is a country that is basically built on the back of tourism, which in modern Europe is dead easy, bankrupt? Like Egypt, there'd have to be millions/billions in Euros coming in from the tourists where has the *cough*graft*cough* gone?

The problem there is that it is hardly true for the average entrepreneur. Most of the tourism facilities were heavily subsidized by the EU (up to 70% of its actual worth). Once that stops the whole thingy becomes unsustainable.

Around 40% of the Greek GDP was generated by the government, which is also unsustainable. Now, if somebody wants to keep on subsidizing Greece 'till Kingdom come they are welcome to do so, it is just that most Europeans think it was enough.

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How exactly is a country that is basically built on the back of tourism, which in modern Europe is dead easy, bankrupt? Like Egypt, there'd have to be millions/billions in Euros coming in from the tourists where has the *cough*graft*cough* gone?

A big part of the crisis in Greece is because of the sudden booming of tourism, which started about 20 years ago.

Greece was still more or less primitive before that.

The booming in tourism brought along a lot of corruption, in politics but also among the people.

Europe is also to blame for letting Greece be a part of Europe in times that they weren't ready for it. The administration was not in order.

It's been only a couple of years that taxes are checked/controled for example.

Suddenly Greece was getting all this money in subsidies and all these paycuts on goods from other European countries and nobody checked up on how they were spent. There was no control.

So politicians and civilians just put it all in their pockets.

It's like giving a teenager 500 000 dollars, a car, and no rules. Just the slight promise that you'll get things in order sooner or later.

Anyway,

Leaving the EU is no solution for Greece at the time. It would be pretty much disastrous if they went back to the drachme. Inflation would go through the roof. It would be practically impossible to buy anything from foreign countries.

This includes things as computers for example. They will get in complete isolation the next couple of generations.

At this moment in time it's cheaper for them to buy tomatoes for example from a foreign country instead of buying the ones produces in Crete (almost 1 euro cheaper when it comes from another EU country).

Ppl their money ( the drachme) wouldn't be worth anything.

Controlposts will have to be set up at the borders because of all the ppl who will try to flee abroad with their remaining euros. Which would be more problematic if they get out with those euros, because Greece needs them to be brought back to the banks to exchange for drachmes.

In the long term it could be favorable. Because of the devaluation of the drachme, export and tourism will become more attractive.

But the question is .. how many "lost generations" are they willing to take to get to that point ?

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Its not so much cultural differences as they want to live the lazy life and have europe (germany) bale them out and pay for their lazy lifestyle.

Yep and the French are following the same pattern, few month ago they elected the most lazy and incapable socialist president (even in his own party another party leader mentioned his incompetence) and today there are legislative elections in France also... is the end of the Euro close by? Heck I hope not but EU needs to get out of the socialist system and implement direct responsibilities to all including banksters

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Its not so much cultural differences as they want to live the lazy life and have europe (germany) bale them out and pay for their lazy lifestyle.

Which is BS for most working Greeks, especially those who work in agriculture and tourism where 12 and 16 hour days are more the rule than the exception. The problem Greece has is that the political parties and successive governments were creating useless jobs that at the end generated more than half of the GDP.

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Posted (edited)

Which is BS for most working Greeks, especially those who work in agriculture and tourism where 12 and 16 hour days are more the rule than the exception. The problem Greece has is that the political parties and successive governments were creating useless jobs that at the end generated more than half of the GDP.

Which is standard practice for socialist governments. Take as much money as possible from the taxpayer & invent hundreds of thousands of government non-jobs. It's what Labour did here over the last 13 years, & they're now gonna start all over again in France now they've got a new socialist government, & yes it is unsustainable.

The real hardworking greek people in the private sector have every right to be angry at the way things have turned out. If only public sector workers faced the fact that their jobs wouldn't exist without the private sector there to fund them, then perhaps they'd be a little less demanding.

Edited by itsnotoutthere
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Which is standard practice for socialist governments. Take as much money as possible from the taxpayer & invent hundreds of thousands of government non-jobs. It's what Labour did here over the last 13 years, & they're now gonna start all over again in France now they've got a new socialist government, & yes it is unsustainable.

The real hardworking greek people in the private sector have every right to be angry at the way things have turned out. If only public sector workers faced the fact that their jobs wouldn't exist without the private sector there to fund them, then perhaps they'd be a little less demanding.

That has nothing to do with socialism as it was practiced by all parties, it is called clientelism or oligarchy. The rich keep on putting in the government while giving the poor useless jobs... works quite well as long as you spend somebody else's money. In other parts of the world that procedure is also is being used, it is just called "stimulus" there. And the somebody else are future generations.

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That has nothing to do with socialism as it was practiced by all parties, it is called clientelism or oligarchy. The rich keep on putting in the government while giving the poor useless jobs... works quite well as long as you spend somebody else's money. In other parts of the world that procedure is also is being used, it is just called "stimulus" there. And the somebody else are future generations.

Now i know you're burying your head in the sand. It's got everything to do with socialist government. It's exactly what the new French president was advocating to get elected. It's exactly the course of action our last socialist government undertook until it became unsustainable, remember the little note the last finance minister left new the new incumbent "Sorry there's no money left" it's what all socialist government do best i.e. spend barrow & spend again until it's all gone.

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Now i know you're burying your head in the sand. It's got everything to do with socialist government. It's exactly what the new French president was advocating to get elected. It's exactly the course of action our last socialist government undertook until it became unsustainable, remember the little note the last finance minister left new the new incumbent "Sorry there's no money left" it's what all socialist government do best i.e. spend barrow & spend again until it's all gone.

So why are you cheering Cameron on? Or did you miss this:

£140bn to kickstart stagnant economy

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Posted (edited)

So why are you cheering Cameron on? Or did you miss this:

£140bn to kickstart stagnant economy

From your link :-

The Bank of England is to offer money to high-street banks to kick-start mortgage and small business lending to prevent loans being rationed for many families and entrepreneurs, the Chancellor announced.

Because we need to create jobs that make money as opposed to the socialist method of creating non-jobs that cost money....it's simple maths.

If you max out your credit card you don't borrow more. simple really.

"Osborne's austerity drive cut 270,000 public sector jobs last year" link:- http://www.guardian....lic-sector-jobs

Edited by itsnotoutthere
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Because we need to create jobs that make money as opposed to the socialist method of creating non-jobs that cost money....it's simple maths.

If you max out your credit card you don't borrow more. simple really.

"Osborne's austerity drive cut 270,000 public sector jobs last year" link:- http://www.guardian....lic-sector-jobs

Excuses excuses excuses. Fact of the matter is that this is exactly what you call socialism: Somebody is creating jobs with somebody else's money. Strangely not socialism, but creating jobs, when the Tories do it but super socialism when Labor does it.

The bottom line: All the same clientelism to get reelected. No matter if in Greece or in Britain.

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Posted (edited)

Excuses excuses excuses. Fact of the matter is that this is exactly what you call socialism: Somebody is creating jobs with somebody else's money. Strangely not socialism, but creating jobs, when the Tories do it but super socialism when Labor does it.

The bottom line: All the same clientelism to get reelected. No matter if in Greece or in Britain.

Think you belong to this group as you're obviously in denial :- "If only public sector workers faced the fact that their jobs wouldn't exist without the private sector there to fund them"

Edited by itsnotoutthere
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Now i know you're burying your head in the sand. It's got everything to do with socialist government. It's exactly what the new French president was advocating to get elected. It's exactly the course of action our last socialist government undertook until it became unsustainable, remember the little note the last finance minister left new the new incumbent "Sorry there's no money left" it's what all socialist government do best i.e. spend barrow & spend again until it's all gone.

our last goverment was not in any way shape or form socialist it was a light blue tory goverment.

what i would like to know is when did a socialist goverment come to mean wishy washy tree hugging sandle wearing idiots.

a real socialist goverment would encourage hard work and productivity along with a living wage and harsh punishment for anyone who damaged there society.

the only real difference between capitalisim and socialism should be under socialisim the rich arnt quite as rich and the poor arnt quite as poor a socialist state (a real one )should be the most productive place in the world but it seems to have be hijacked by

people who want to take the p***.

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Posted (edited)

our last goverment was not in any way shape or form socialist it was a light blue tory goverment.

what i would like to know is when did a socialist goverment come to mean wishy washy tree hugging sandle wearing idiots.

a real socialist goverment would encourage hard work and productivity along with a living wage and harsh punishment for anyone who damaged there society.

the only real difference between capitalisim and socialism should be under socialisim the rich arnt quite as rich and the poor arnt quite as poor a socialist state (a real one )should be the most productive place in the world but it seems to have be hijacked by

people who want to take the p***.

And it's something that has never been successfully achieved.

Edited by itsnotoutthere

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I hope the people of Greece have the fortitude to resist the austerity measures that Germany is demanding of them. After all, when the European Union was proposed, it was understood that some states were more productive. It seems unfair to expect the Greeks to change their cultural differences and adopt a German model simply because the bankers have almost single handedly wrecked the prosperity engine.

Like the Arab spring, the people's hatred of the status quo will soon boil over into a fierce battle for a new government. The sooner Greece is removed from the EU, the sooner she can compete and regain her freedom.

As it stands now, she is held hostage by German bankers. If they choose to pay the ransom, they get what they deserve.

7373673082_5805b70eac_z.jpg

Many of the Greek people, my friend, are enraged not only because of Germany, but also by the treacherous governments of the past and present, but i really don't know whether a massive revolution will take place soon. People are exhausted by all those measures and we sure want to get out of this freaky situation, but i really don't know when we're gonna take action....but remember my words; someday we will rise up and it's gonna be really big.

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Its not so much cultural differences as they want to live the lazy life and have europe (germany) bale them out and pay for their lazy lifestyle.

Do you have any evidence on what you're stating? We are working more than any other nation in Europe (yeah more than Germans too). We sure are not lazy. Please, get your facts straight, before you start talking. No offence ;)

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A big part of the crisis in Greece is because of the sudden booming of tourism, which started about 20 years ago.

Greece was still more or less primitive before that.

The booming in tourism brought along a lot of corruption, in politics but also among the people.

Europe is also to blame for letting Greece be a part of Europe in times that they weren't ready for it. The administration was not in order.

It's been only a couple of years that taxes are checked/controled for example.

Suddenly Greece was getting all this money in subsidies and all these paycuts on goods from other European countries and nobody checked up on how they were spent. There was no control.

So politicians and civilians just put it all in their pockets.

It's like giving a teenager 500 000 dollars, a car, and no rules. Just the slight promise that you'll get things in order sooner or later.

Anyway,

Leaving the EU is no solution for Greece at the time. It would be pretty much disastrous if they went back to the drachme. Inflation would go through the roof. It would be practically impossible to buy anything from foreign countries.

This includes things as computers for example. They will get in complete isolation the next couple of generations.

At this moment in time it's cheaper for them to buy tomatoes for example from a foreign country instead of buying the ones produces in Crete (almost 1 euro cheaper when it comes from another EU country).

Ppl their money ( the drachme) wouldn't be worth anything.

Controlposts will have to be set up at the borders because of all the ppl who will try to flee abroad with their remaining euros. Which would be more problematic if they get out with those euros, because Greece needs them to be brought back to the banks to exchange for drachmes.

In the long term it could be favorable. Because of the devaluation of the drachme, export and tourism will become more attractive.

But the question is .. how many "lost generations" are they willing to take to get to that point ?

That's the situation exactly, as you put it. I couldn't describe it better...My country needs logical solutions NOW...

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Do you have any evidence on what you're stating? We are working more than any other nation in Europe (yeah more than Germans too). We sure are not lazy. Please, get your facts straight, before you start talking. No offence ;)

But how can Greece sort them selvesout? merge with Macedonia?

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But how can Greece sort them selvesout? merge with Macedonia?

What do you mean '' merge with Macedonia''? Macedonia is a Greek region, not a country..!

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But how can Greece sort them selvesout? merge with Macedonia?

they need to devalue their currency and adjust their interest rate, while at the same time making cuts at present they have no control over anything. they cannot devalue the currency, they cannot set their interest rate and the EU commission is telling them were to make cuts. - there is no way back for Greece, 6 years in recession unheard of in modern times. - its clear they cannot payback the money. but wont be allowed to default because the German elections are next year, and chancellor merkel is not going to win that election if all the German money paid to greece is lost. they'll continue to throw more and more money at greece hoping that the crisis with time will resolve itself.

you only have to look at the latest EU budget meeting, were all the poorer members who cream off the money like Poland for example were in favour of a contribution rise of 8%, Poland receives €10 billion from the EU, no wonder they're in favour of a budget increase. along with Greece, Hungary Spain and Portugal etc..

this is why the EU will never work in its current state, this is why they now openly talk of a federal EU. with everything centralised, listening to the EU debate one MEP Joseph Daul said, we need a budget increase to continue to build infrastructure, because all roads dont lead to Rome but to the capital of europe Brussels. :innocent:

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What do you mean '' merge with Macedonia''? Macedonia is a Greek region, not a country..!

:lol:

He referred to actual country called Macedonia, situated up north of your country, populated with Macedonians and quite significant number of Albanians.

Though Serbian, Bulgarian and Greece extreme nationalists all have pretensions to claiming the whole Macedonia or at least ripping a part of her for them, it’s not likely to happen anytime soon. Because people who have finances that enable them to wage wars are not interested in detonating the Balkan gunpowder barrel. Yet.

I wouldn’t look forward to the day when they change their minds and let Macedonian Albanians merge with Albania, thus setting off the brotherly Orthodox war for scraps of Macedonian territory.

In short, this is not the time for nationalist chest-thumping, in case you haven't noticed it.

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