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zoser

Phoenix - Flares Debunked

238 posts in this topic

I can't believe so many people are still going on about this........

Just goes to show that hysteria wins out over facts and logic everytime.

Like I said once before, for all I know the whole thing started with something flying out of Nellis AFB the night before, but I can't swear to that of course.

I do disagree with the name "Phoenix Lights" being assigned to this case, but that's the name that has stuck in the public record and popular imagination--unfortunately.

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Well I guess we are all learning eh?

clearly you are not!

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phoenix nights

its a youtube clip so it must be real

http://youtu.be/Pzf0X72dVcU

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Well I guess we are all learning eh?

Promise?

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I am all for skepticism. I consider it a virtue and a sign of good analytical thought processes.

However in some cases it can reach a point where skepticism for its own sake brings a sort of intellectual dishonesty.

In the case of this Phoenix incident, saying that there is no way it could be an alien craft seems dishonest to me. Considering that even Thomas Jefferson and George Washington alluded in their writings to some sort of foreign presence, the phenomenon of UFO is about as old as mankind itself.

You are talking about debunking for the sake of it. That is not the case here. There are pages and pages dedicated to the subject in the BE thread with math that proves the event was flares. Simply put that is why this thread exists, to try and divert attention form the proof that no believer was able to falsify. The work has been done, people simply refuse to accept it exists, and have put this thread up to bury the fact that the event has been explained.

Why do you guys refuse to acknowledge the BE thread, and the many pages that went into proving the Alien ideal is incorrect? Zoser wont answer that question because he knows that the math will knock his case out of the water, but why do you refuse to acknowledge that math?

Insisting that this is likely an alien craft I find dishonest. And the simple fact that each and every proponent runs like a Gazelle fro the extensive work done in the BE thread seems to confirm that the dishonesty is deliberate. Everytime it is mentioned the reply is "what about the witnesses"? To which I might reply, yes, what about them? Can they provide evidence or a tall tale? Can they offer information that falsifies the math? With a resounding no on both counts, I am wondering why the last few still refuse to accept prosaic explanations.

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Depends on how far back you wish to go with your comparison. Evidence does exist to the effect that men used to live longer than they do today if you care to search for the evidence.

Link?

Please present it. Tall tales are not the most convincing for the larger majority of thinkers.

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Posted (edited)

This should be interesting.

As far as I know, people live longer today thanks to much better medical care, better nutrition, improved medication, better prognosis and diagnosis, improved treatment and knowledge.

Edited by DBunker

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certainly not..it does however, address your starting point as to why Governments have been contacted.

Gidday Quillius

I have stated reasons as to why the Government conspiracy thing does not work on a global scale. It simply cannot and examples to support the hypothesis abound.

That side of the ET question I am positive is bunk. I could imagine a crash in the 50's or a hand full of actual sightings, even perhaps a cover up of some incidents but for the life of me the reason for covering up eludes me, and only if proof supported such, but full global collusion just does not make sense on a global scale. It simply cannot work. And One Government is not going to be able to hide Interstellar traffic from the rest of the world. Not in this day and age.

Cheers.

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Posted (edited)

I recommend doing some research. Look at the most popular cases, particularly those of the 1960's and 1970's. There are other very good later UFO waves, such as the Wytheville VA, Hudson Valley, and Phoenix. The UK also has seen many very famous individual incidents and UFO waves. My name is Zoser btw.

:w00t:

Funniest post I have read all day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Research huh? Like you did on the Aztec case, or perhaps in the depth work you did confirming Buzz Aldrin s Apollo 11 claim? Or would that be supporting Bob Lazar via Edgar Mitchell?????

Zoser, you have never shown an ounce of research, and you are recommending such to others? Now that is funny! :lol:

ETA: Youtube trolling is not research. Just like entertainment shows are not documentaries! :rofl:

Edited by psyche101

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If you must invoke the name of Jesus, then I'm wasting my time.

Ask a simple question, and get an evasive reply. I must admit Boo, you do stay in character. That's the downside of attempting to defend the indefensible.

Really? I find I often have to invoke the almighty in order to maintain a conversation on an academic level.

What about the work Boon did on the BE thread with Lost Shaman and Perc? No believer seems to have the balls to tackle that.

This should be interesting.

As far as I know, people live longer today thanks to much better medical care, better nutrition, improved medication, better prognosis and diagnosis, improved treatment and knowledge.

Why do I get the feeling he is going to pull the Bible out?

Well, have at it I say! :w00t:

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Really? I find I often have to invoke the almighty in order to maintain a conversation on an academic level.

What about the work Boon did on the BE thread with Lost Shaman and Perc? No believer seems to have the balls to tackle that.

I can pretty much guarantee that BR won't look up anything on the BE threads. Hell, he couldn't even be troubled to read my posts in this sad excuse for a thread to determine what I think about the earlier events in Phoenix. Unbelievable really.

And yet he accuses me of intellectual dishonesty and attempting to "defend the indefensible." :rolleyes:

I really shouldn't be surprised though after all of my interactions with him in the 911 threads.

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I can pretty much guarantee that BR won't look up anything on the BE threads. Hell, he couldn't even be troubled to read my posts in this sad excuse for a thread to determine what I think about the earlier events in Phoenix. Unbelievable really.

And yet he accuses me of intellectual dishonesty and attempting to "defend the indefensible." :rolleyes:

I really shouldn't be surprised though after all of my interactions with him in the 911 threads.

Neither BR or Zoser have had the balls to so much as look at the evaluations. It is indeed highly hypocritical to claim that skeptics refuse to listen to "the evidence". "The Evidence" is soundly refuted in the BE thread and they refuse to acknowledge that it so much as exists.

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Totally bummed out ! So Now you say Mork is not an Alien ? Well I can still be in Love with Mindy right ? Afterall she`s a Earth Woman right ?

COme on somebody throw me a bone here ! :sk

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sadly for you your post doesn't make much sense, you seem to be getting quite confused, i am not throwing arguments at you merely responding to your 'critique' perhaps we should just agree to disagree. I live in the real world and have plenty of mundane down to earth (pardon the pun) things to attend to now, perhaps another time!

not quite the way I read it, most responses seem to try and put words in my mouth, examples of this are:

- governments controlling everything and everyone

- all the military can keep secrets

- ET making contact with Governments

having said that I would like to see where I have said these things....

I am always happy to agree to disagree, and some other time would be good :tu:

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Gidday Quillius

I have stated reasons as to why the Government conspiracy thing does not work on a global scale. It simply cannot and examples to support the hypothesis abound.

That side of the ET question I am positive is bunk. I could imagine a crash in the 50's or a hand full of actual sightings, even perhaps a cover up of some incidents but for the life of me the reason for covering up eludes me, and only if proof supported such, but full global collusion just does not make sense on a global scale. It simply cannot work. And One Government is not going to be able to hide Interstellar traffic from the rest of the world. Not in this day and age.

Cheers.

Gidday mate, I agree with everything you have said.

The reasons for the cover up on certain incidents elude me also, in fact this is quite key for me.....as you know I have said before that I am quite sure that the Government (or at least a handful of people within) did at the very least believe that UFO's were of extraterrestrial nature......the problem for me is that they could have been mistaken if it was juts a belief, however at the same time they could hav easily have come across something that meant they knew rather than believed.

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I can pretty much guarantee that BR won't look up anything on the BE threads. Hell, he couldn't even be troubled to read my posts in this sad excuse for a thread to determine what I think about the earlier events in Phoenix. Unbelievable really.

And yet he accuses me of intellectual dishonesty and attempting to "defend the indefensible." :rolleyes:

I really shouldn't be surprised though after all of my interactions with him in the 911 threads.

911!? People lived longer back in the days!? psychic powers!? Aliens all over the place!?

Good Lord, is there no end to the silly stuff some people believe?

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Please stop with the ad hom remarks...debate the subject matter, not one another.

I am making the kinder assumption that Lilly's post was missed and not ignored. This will be the final warning in this thread.

Dot~

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You are talking about debunking for the sake of it. That is not the case here. There are pages and pages dedicated to the subject in the BE thread with math that proves the event was flares. Simply put that is why this thread exists, to try and divert attention form the proof that no believer was able to falsify. The work has been done, people simply refuse to accept it exists, and have put this thread up to bury the fact that the event has been explained.

Why do you guys refuse to acknowledge the BE thread, and the many pages that went into proving the Alien ideal is incorrect? Zoser wont answer that question because he knows that the math will knock his case out of the water, but why do you refuse to acknowledge that math?

Insisting that this is likely an alien craft I find dishonest. And the simple fact that each and every proponent runs like a Gazelle fro the extensive work done in the BE thread seems to confirm that the dishonesty is deliberate. Everytime it is mentioned the reply is "what about the witnesses"? To which I might reply, yes, what about them? Can they provide evidence or a tall tale? Can they offer information that falsifies the math? With a resounding no on both counts, I am wondering why the last few still refuse to accept prosaic explanations.

I am NOT insisting that it is an alien craft. I don't know what it is, but being a pilot myself, and having seen Fife's comments in "truth" mode, I believe him.

No sir, I'm more than willing to entertain any idea. I can entertain the notion that it was some sort of hologram, but in order to accept that notion somebody is going to have to show me the hologram machine responsible for the illusion.

The efforts to "debunk" or "explain" by way of USAF statements, amateur triangulation, and whatever else has been thrown into the mix, I find most UNpersuasive. I've seen my share of USAF flares at night, and I don't find that a plausible explanation for the earlier event. Second event, yes, but not the first.

I say again, beyond a certain point, the efforts to "debunk" become ingenuous, when considering the big picture, the 'big picture' meaning reports of UFO starting with recorded history.

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911!? People lived longer back in the days!? psychic powers!? Aliens all over the place!?

Good Lord, is there no end to the silly stuff some people believe?

No, there is no end to the silliness some believe.

For example, folks will happily believe certain accounts told by a government well known for its mendacity.

Even though a government lies about UFOs, lies about WMD, lies about CPI (through false accounting), lies about how certain people's deaths, lies about virtually everything, many folks place absolute faith in statements of that government regarding the events of a certain day, even though the evidence contradicts government press releases.

Yeah, great question you raise---why do so many folks place absolute faith in the statements of known liars?

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I am NOT insisting that it is an alien craft. I don't know what it is, but being a pilot myself, and having seen Fife's comments in "truth" mode, I believe him.

I believe Fife as well. He saw something that he wasn't able to identify.

No sir, I'm more than willing to entertain any idea. I can entertain the notion that it was some sort of hologram, but in order to accept that notion somebody is going to have to show me the hologram machine responsible for the illusion.

Nobody here is suggesting that it was a hologram.

The efforts to "debunk" or "explain" by way of USAF statements, amateur triangulation, and whatever else has been thrown into the mix, I find most UNpersuasive. I've seen my share of USAF flares at night, and I don't find that a plausible explanation for the earlier event. Second event, yes, but not the first.

I guess it's a good thing that nobody here is suggesting that the earlier event consisted of flares either. Also good that you agree that the 10 PM event could have been flares.

I say again, beyond a certain point, the efforts to "debunk" become ingenuous, when considering the big picture, the 'big picture' meaning reports of UFO starting with recorded history.

The 'big picture' of historical UFO reports has little to no value when assessing the evidence related to a specific case. Comparing specific details between cases can be of value, but citing some ambiguous 'big picture' like this offers virtually none.

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No, there is no end to the silliness some believe.

For example, folks will happily believe certain accounts told by a government well known for its mendacity.

Even though a government lies about UFOs, lies about WMD, lies about CPI (through false accounting), lies about how certain people's deaths, lies about virtually everything, many folks place absolute faith in statements of that government regarding the events of a certain day, even though the evidence contradicts government press releases.

Yeah, great question you raise---why do so many folks place absolute faith in the statements of known liars?

I respect your lack of trust in governments. God knows what secrets they are keeping from the public.

But, there are other ways to reality, you know?

As for my post about the 911 being an inside job, or the claim that people lived longer 2000 years ago, people with psychic powers and Aliens visiting our planet,... well, I see no credible evidence of any of that.

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Posted (edited)

No, there is no end to the silliness some believe.

For example, folks will happily believe certain accounts told by a government well known for its mendacity.

Even though a government lies about UFOs, lies about WMD, lies about CPI (through false accounting), lies about how certain people's deaths, lies about virtually everything, many folks place absolute faith in statements of that government regarding the events of a certain day, even though the evidence contradicts government press releases.

Babe Ruth is perfectly correct that governments have lied and covered up a great deal about UFOs, and that has been proven a million times over. I could sit hit all day, every day offering tons of evidence about that, contrasting what they said in public compared to what they were saying and doing behind the scenes, and have done so many times.

There's no point in trying to prove that over and over again, because people who will not believe all the evidence that I any many others have provided over the years are simply being willfully obtuse, but governments do lie about UFOs.

That said, I don't have anything to add about the Phoenix Lights, which I have never thought were just lights or flares, and were not seen only in Phoenix. I have no doubt that flares were being used that night, and that our aircraft were in the air, but also that something more unusual and unconventional was flying around at the same time, something that is probably still classified.

Whether it was "ours" or "theirs" is likely something we'll never know, but if it was ours, then they must have wanted lots of people to see it and react to it for some reason.

Edited by TheMcGuffin

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Same things that have been said many times. What about the witnesses who swear it was planes and flares? Is their testimony false just because it disagrees with the UFO theory? In order to find truth you must look at all sides. If presented with only half the information you are only half-informed and if you don't try to find the other half of the story you have no interest in the truth, just your opinions.

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A UFO to some, a flying kitty to others.

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Babe Ruth is perfectly correct that governments have lied and covered up a great deal about UFOs, and that has been proven a million times over. I could sit hit all day, every day offering tons of evidence about that, contrasting what they said in public compared to what they were saying and doing behind the scenes, and have done so many times.

There's no point in trying to prove that over and over again, because people who will not believe all the evidence that I any many others have provided over the years are simply being willfully obtuse, but governments do lie about UFOs.

That said, I don't have anything to add about the Phoenix Lights, which I have never thought were just lights or flares, and were not seen only in Phoenix. I have no doubt that flares were being used that night, and that our aircraft were in the air, but also that something more unusual and unconventional was flying around at the same time, something that is probably still classified.

Whether it was "ours" or "theirs" is likely something we'll never know, but if it was ours, then they must have wanted lots of people to see it and react to it for some reason.

here you go again,it has NOT been proven a million times over,if it had we would not be discussing it here, you are talking rubbish, its easy to say you could offer proof yet when asked to do so you do not, of course governments and military keep new and experimental craft secret, but that is not the same as lying to us about UFO's. you live in a fantasy world my friend

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