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Phoenix - Flares Debunked

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One can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make him drink. One can lay it all out for a man, but you cannot make him think.

Those who see themselves as mere skeptics in this UFO matter appear to some of us as mere government apologists, for it is the government that has lied, flip-flopped and obfuscated basically since the Roswell incident.

Certainly every man is entitled to his own opinion, and while it cannot be proved either way in this UFO controversy, it is safe to say that the preponderance of the evidence, by a vast margin, is that the government deliberately covers up the truth. The logical conclusion is that the truth has something to do with alien intelligence and presence, long before Roswell.

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here you go again,it has NOT been proven a million times over,if it had we would not be discussing it here, you are talking rubbish, its easy to say you could offer proof yet when asked to do so you do not, of course governments and military keep new and experimental craft secret, but that is not the same as lying to us about UFO's. you live in a fantasy world my friend

so just to confirm, this government/military you say keep new and secret craft secret, is this the same unintelligent bunch that cant keep a secret, as you have proven (in your fantasy world) earlier??!?!?

Im confused can they or cant they keep secrets? or does it depend on the debate?

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so just to confirm, this government/military you say keep new and secret craft secret, is this the same unintelligent bunch that cant keep a secret, as you have proven (in your fantasy world) earlier??!?!?

Im confused can they or cant they keep secrets? or does it depend on the debate?

In my opinion secret aircraft which are developed and tested in remote locations away from prying eyes and UFO's which are apparently in plain sight for everyone to see are secrets of quite differing magnitudes.

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In my opinion secret aircraft which are developed and tested in remote locations away from prying eyes and UFO's which are apparently in plain sight for everyone to see are secrets of quite differing magnitudes.

yes true, but any 'potential evidence' would also be in remote locations away from prying eyes.

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so just to confirm, this government/military you say keep new and secret craft secret, is this the same unintelligent bunch that cant keep a secret, as you have proven (in your fantasy world) earlier??!?!?

Im confused can they or cant they keep secrets? or does it depend on the debate?

and again dont be obtuse, just in case you hadn't noticed this is the SAME debate. i'll lay it out simply so you can understand

1.governments do have secrets BUT they do not remain secrets forever.

2. yesterday you agreed with me that government/military are stupid, so what exactly is your point here, why do you keep bringing this up?

3. there are secrets and there are secrets, keeping a new/experimental craft or piece of hardware secret is VERY different to a worldwide conspiracy to keep the existence of aliens from us all.

4. just like you i have proven nothing neither do i claim to

5.fantasy world? explain.. I am not the one who believes in aliens and conspiracy theories

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Posted (edited)

yes true, but any 'potential evidence' would also be in remote locations away from prying eyes.

Yes, however you'd have to buy into the idea that there is a government agency always at the ready to respond to each and every UFO encounter to retrieve and/or 'cover up' the incident all without a hitch like photo's, video's or more tangible forms of evidence falling into the hands of witnesses. I'm not sure I could envision such a thing. Not so much that the government is too inept (which I believe they are to some extent) but human nature would have won out a long time ago in my opinion. Yes, there have been 'whistle blowers' but have they contributed anything substantial like physical evidence or blown the lid off of some conspiracy? Or have they just had a few minutes of fame with some book sales to their name? I don't know, It doesn't make sense to me that the government could be hiding something like alien visitation. UFO's in general though (not necessarily ET related) sure, they probably have quite a few unreleased incidents stashed away somewhere but that still doesn't imply some sort of conspiracy.

*Edit* I forgot to mention the world wide collaborative effort between all governments if such a conspiracy is to be believed. Makes it even harder, if not impossible to believe in my opinion.

Edited by Slave2Fate
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One can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make him drink. One can lay it all out for a man, but you cannot make him think.

Those who see themselves as mere skeptics in this UFO matter appear to some of us as mere government apologists, for it is the government that has lied, flip-flopped and obfuscated basically since the Roswell incident.

Certainly every man is entitled to his own opinion, and while it cannot be proved either way in this UFO controversy, it is safe to say that the preponderance of the evidence, by a vast margin, is that the government deliberately covers up the truth. The logical conclusion is that the truth has something to do with alien intelligence and presence, long before Roswell.

logical? please explain

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and again dont be obtuse, just in case you hadn't noticed this is the SAME debate. i'll lay it out simply so you can understand

I had noticed (or is that more sarcasm?) and yes please do lay it out for me..lets see how that pans out

1.governments do have secrets BUT they do not remain secrets forever.

agreed...forever is a long time though

2. yesterday you agreed with me that government/military are stupid, so what exactly is your point here, why do you keep bringing this up?

no I never!!! please do show where I agreed with you.

3. there are secrets and there are secrets, keeping a new/experimental craft or piece of hardware secret is VERY different to a worldwide conspiracy to keep the existence of aliens from us all

worldwide? who said worldwide? if a part of the government back in the 50's truly believed (or had evidence of ET) then it wouldnt be difficult to hide this, especially if it was a belief based on a misinterpretation of what was being seen.

4. just like you i have proven nothing neither do i claim to

ok, so your point is??

5.fantasy world? explain.. I am not the one who believes in aliens and conspiracy theories

you have only proved Governments are unintelligent and cant keep secrets (proved only in your fantasy world as you have shown no proof here)

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Yes, however you'd have to buy into the idea that there is a government agency always at the ready to respond to each and every UFO encounter to retrieve and/or 'cover up' the incident all without a hitch like photo's, video's or more tangible forms of evidence falling into the hands of witnesses. I'm not sure I could envision such a thing. Not so much that the government is too inept (which I believe they are to some extent) but human nature would have won out a long time ago in my opinion. Yes, there have been 'whistle blowers' but have they contributed anything substantial like physical evidence or blown the lid off of some conspiracy? Or have they just had a few minutes of fame with some book sales to their name? I don't know, It doesn't make sense to me that the government could be hiding something like alien visitation. UFO's in general though (not necessarily ET related) sure, they probably have quite a few unreleased incidents stashed away somewhere but that still doesn't imply some sort of conspiracy.

*Edit* I forgot to mention the world wide collaborative effort between all governments if such a conspiracy is to be believed. Makes it even harder, if not impossible to believe in my opinion.

I dont think it needs to be either worldwide or current. If only a few either knew or believed they knew that some UFOs (maybe a particular type) were extraterrestrial then I think this would explain cover ups (at least some that were true cover ups). Granted they may have been covering up UAP's for example, convinced this was ET, but I dont see why it needs to every UFO required jets to be scrambled or that it wasnt only one or two events that gave them the proof.

Maybe the physical evidence is lacking and a full blown finger pointing whistleblow is beyond a lot of these gentlemen who had integrity through their careers and battle to get out what they know/believe they know.

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No disrespect Quill, but surely you wouldn't argue with that assessment?

sadly I do 747400.....

I had noticed (or is that more sarcasm?) and yes please do lay it out for me..lets see how that pans out

agreed...forever is a long time though

no I never!!! please do show where I agreed with you.

worldwide? who said worldwide? if a part of the government back in the 50's truly believed (or had evidence of ET) then it wouldnt be difficult to hide this, especially if it was a belief based on a misinterpretation of what was being seen.

ok, so your point is??

you have only proved Governments are unintelligent and cant keep secrets (proved only in your fantasy world as you have shown no proof here)

as i have said before, i have not proven anything neither do i claim to

and again fantasy world explain? i am no t the one who believes in aliens or conspiracy theories

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please - quil or McG show me this proof that you have alluded to

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as i have said before, i have not proven anything neither do i claim to

and again fantasy world explain? i am no t the one who believes in aliens or conspiracy theories

?? huh this says the opposite, 747 agrees with you. He asked if I disagreed with that assesment to which I said I did, therefore dont agree they are unintelligent???

guess translation across the net often gets lost :)

please - quil or McG show me this proof that you have alluded to

what proof? of aliens or cover ups?

(wont be back until tomorrow now)

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Posted (edited)

Yes, however you'd have to buy into the idea that there is a government agency always at the ready to respond to each and every UFO encounter to retrieve and/or 'cover up' the incident all without a hitch like photo's, video's or more tangible forms of evidence falling into the hands of witnesses. I'm not sure I could envision such a thing. Not so much that the government is too inept (which I believe they are to some extent) but human nature would have won out a long time ago in my opinion. Yes, there have been 'whistle blowers' but have they contributed anything substantial like physical evidence or blown the lid off of some conspiracy? Or have they just had a few minutes of fame with some book sales to their name? I don't know, It doesn't make sense to me that the government could be hiding something like alien visitation. UFO's in general though (not necessarily ET related) sure, they probably have quite a few unreleased incidents stashed away somewhere but that still doesn't imply some sort of conspiracy.

*Edit* I forgot to mention the world wide collaborative effort between all governments if such a conspiracy is to be believed. Makes it even harder, if not impossible to believe in my opinion.

Let's say that the Realists are correct and that we live in a highly competitive system with no real international authority, in which every state acts out of self-interest. I'm not saying that I agree with that fully, but in that type of international system, it is in the interest of each state to acquire advanced weapons and technology that are superior to those of its rivals, but also to keep these developments secret.

In such a realist world-system, the same rules would apply to ET contacts or technology, since each of the players would try to conceal what it really has and also misinform and deceive the others. It happens all the time.

Therefore, no international conspiracy is necessary since the suspicion and distrust that the rival powers have for each other is sufficient for them to go to great lengths to conceal all kinds of information.

Some people argue the international system is like a chess game, but I think it's more like poker or sometimes bridge or games where partners play against each other.

Edited by TheMcGuffin

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?? huh this says the opposite, 747 agrees with you. He asked if I disagreed with that assesment to which I said I did, therefore dont agree they are unintelligent???

guess translation across the net often gets lost :)

what proof? of aliens or cover ups?

(wont be back until tomorrow now)

both

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Posted (edited)

And anyone even slightly familiar with the history of UFOs, and the declassified documents, knows for a fact that the internal investigations and opinions of the government do not match what they were telling the public.

This has been discussed hundreds and thousands of times here on UM, including in many of the nearly 3,000 posts I have made. Check that, it's nearly 4,000 now. I forgot it was so many.

Edited by TheMcGuffin

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Posted (edited)

In fact, given a Realist system of competitive, self-interested nations, secrecy is even easier to believe than if some type of open, internationalist system existed: secret weapons, secret police and intelligence agencies, secret deals and secret diplomacy, propaganda and disinformation to manipulate enemies and even allies and public opinion in one's own country. Covert wars. Low-intensity wars. Secret wars, fought by proxies.

Doesn't that sound very similar to the system that exists in the real world, especially over the last 100 years?

Edited by TheMcGuffin

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My money is on the Higgs Boson part !

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And anyone even slightly familiar with the history of UFOs, and the declassified documents, knows for a fact that the internal investigations and opinions of the government do not match what they were telling the public.

This has been discussed hundreds and thousands of times here on UM, including in many of the nearly 3,000 posts I have made. Check that, it's nearly 4,000 now. I forgot it was so many.

It doesnt matter if you had 20 000 posts under your belt, the matter of alien visitation will be decided by the evidence, not by the intensity of opinion.

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Let's say that the Realists are correct and that we live in a highly competitive system with no real international authority, in which every state acts out of self-interest. I'm not saying that I agree with that fully, but in that type of international system, it is in the interest of each state to acquire advanced weapons and technology that are superior to those of its rivals, but also to keep these developments secret.

In such a realist world-system, the same rules would apply to ET contacts or technology, since each of the players would try to conceal what it really has and also misinform and deceive the others. It happens all the time.

Therefore, no international conspiracy is necessary since the suspicion and distrust that the rival powers have for each other is sufficient for them to go to great lengths to conceal all kinds of information.

Some people argue the international system is like a chess game, but I think it's more like poker or sometimes bridge or games where partners play against each other.

That's pretty much what I'm pointing out, to an extent. World governments (even allies) would likely not collude in such a grand conspiracy of alien visitation. But keeping it secret from other nations? I don't think that would be as easy as you seem to make out. Especially considering the heights of espionage that we have seen historically from WWII, the Cold War and even in today's government climate. Throw in agencies like NASA and NORAD (along with other international equivalents) and I think you'd have a hard time sneaking something as small as a satellite into Earth's atmosphere. Think if North Korea were to find out that the US was in contact with aliens and could prove it. They might hold on to that info for a little bit, until they found a situation that could benefit them by spilling the beans to the rest of the world. It's the very contention between governments that makes the whole conspiracy seem a little thin in my opinion.

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Posted (edited)

I am NOT insisting that it is an alien craft. I don't know what it is, but being a pilot myself, and having seen Fife's comments in "truth" mode, I believe him.

Truth mode?

032407alienllrg6l5.jpg

Hrmmmzzzz, not sure where you are going with that to be perfectly honest. Rich Contry is a pilot too and is statement goes something like:

I was on my way from Flagstaff to Laughin Thursday when I saw the light formation reported on the radio the other night. I'm a pilot and was in the u.s. air force 4 years. Being in the mountains on highway 40, the night was clear and still. As the formation came towards me I stopped my car and got out with my binocs to check out what this was. As it came towards me, I saw 5 aircraft with there running lights (red and green) and the landing lights (white) on. They were also flying fairly slow and in the delta formation. As they went over me I could see stars going between the aircraft so it could not have been one large ship. The flying was like that of the Blue Angels or the thunderbirds demo team. Also as they went buy their jets were not very loud because of the low throttle setting for flying slow but I did hear the jets as they went away towards the south. (Contry)

LINK

It bothers me that Mitch Stanley who is corroborated by Rich Contry was shouted down at a UFO meeting in Phoenix when he tried to offer his explanation. If people listened and dismissed him on evidence, that would be more than fair enough, but nobody wanted Mitch tearing down the UFO walls in place. It was just an outright protest to anyone who dared challenge the idea of Aliens. I do not see how that is fair, or constructive.

No sir, I'm more than willing to entertain any idea. I can entertain the notion that it was some sort of hologram, but in order to accept that notion somebody is going to have to show me the hologram machine responsible for the illusion.

Can I ask you to consider clicking on the above link provided, have a read, and then let me know what you think of the Independent investigation and offer your response to it? It is an alternative view that you might not be aware of.

The efforts to "debunk" or "explain" by way of USAF statements, amateur triangulation, and whatever else has been thrown into the mix, I find most UNpersuasive. I've seen my share of USAF flares at night, and I don't find that a plausible explanation for the earlier event. Second event, yes, but not the first.

Well see, this is just another reason I do not trust Fife, he knows as well as I do that the 8PM event was never described as flares, and whilst he does not deliberately attempt to indicate the two events are one, he does use descriptions that appear purposefully ambiguous in order to make the event appear as enigmatic as is possible. The 8PM event has always been considered to be planes, and the 10PM event flares. I agree with you and indeed with Fife, the 8PM event was not flares, but to add, nobody said they were.

I say again, beyond a certain point, the efforts to "debunk" become ingenuous, when considering the big picture, the 'big picture' meaning reports of UFO starting with recorded history.

Not so much ingenuous, the math presented in the BE thread is well presented so there are no smoke and mirrors there. The don't find the skeptical argument ingenuous, it's usually quite a heated process, and always very transparent.

Edited by psyche101

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That's pretty much what I'm pointing out, to an extent. World governments (even allies) would likely not collude in such a grand conspiracy of alien visitation. But keeping it secret from other nations? I don't think that would be as easy as you seem to make out. Especially considering the heights of espionage that we have seen historically from WWII, the Cold War and even in today's government climate. Throw in agencies like NASA and NORAD (along with other international equivalents) and I think you'd have a hard time sneaking something as small as a satellite into Earth's atmosphere. Think if North Korea were to find out that the US was in contact with aliens and could prove it. They might hold on to that info for a little bit, until they found a situation that could benefit them by spilling the beans to the rest of the world. It's the very contention between governments that makes the whole conspiracy seem a little thin in my opinion.

I think they'd keep it secret from everybody else, probably even allies, if they thought they could derive some advantage from it and deny it to others. Of course, they would try to find out what the other countries were up to, just like the CIA used to have its agents in the Soviet Union try to find out what they knew about UFOs. In fact, there used to be such declassified documents on the CIA website, with the names of agents and contacts blacked out. I have no doubt that the Soviets did the same thing.

But you see, there's no real advantage in publicizing any of this.

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One can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make him drink. One can lay it all out for a man, but you cannot make him think.

Those who see themselves as mere skeptics in this UFO matter appear to some of us as mere government apologists, for it is the government that has lied, flip-flopped and obfuscated basically since the Roswell incident.

Certainly every man is entitled to his own opinion, and while it cannot be proved either way in this UFO controversy, it is safe to say that the preponderance of the evidence, by a vast margin, is that the government deliberately covers up the truth. The logical conclusion is that the truth has something to do with alien intelligence and presence, long before Roswell.

Why is it not possible that the Government do not want to give citizens the impression that they are in the dark on this subject, and that they might wish to carry out covert investigations so that any information will not be tainted? They might be taking this very seriously, but the reasons I find include more than an Alien answer. I have looked at Roswell in great depth, and I find it was more a battle of egos than information.

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Posted (edited)

Look at it from a purely military point of view. No one is going to admit that there are unknown craft in the oceans or airspace, coming and going at will and there's nothing they can do about it. That makes them look too weak, and weakness is something they do not dare to show, especially in a paranoid police state like North Korea, where the bosses are treated like little tin gods.

So they would admit nothing, just dismiss all of it as craziness or misinterpretations of something conventional. That's very easy to do in a dictatorship where the media and all information are controlled, at least before the Internet age.

At the same time, they would study UFOs behind the scenes, which we did in the US, and probably still do. So did Russia, China, France, Britain, Brazil and many other countries. We know all of this for a fact now. In the U.S., we also know that orders were issued to shoot down the UFOs, in part to warn them out of our airspace, but also in hopes of obtaining some wreckage to study.

That's they way they have been doing things for years.

Edited by TheMcGuffin

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In the U.S., we also know that orders were issued to shoot down the UFOs, in part to warn them out of our airspace, but also in hopes of obtaining some wreckage to study.

That's they way they have been doing things for years.

That's more of a sign of advanced tech in the hands of an enemy nation being the primary cause for concern rather that ET in my opinion. It stems purely from paranoia.

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Posted (edited)

That's more of a sign of advanced tech in the hands of an enemy nation being the primary cause for concern rather that ET in my opinion. It stems purely from paranoia.

That's the way they'd always handle it, whether it was from another country or somewhere else. They would also have the capability of collecting anything that crashed if they possibly could, and we know that in the US this was called Project Moon Dust, Project Blue Fly and Project UFO, at least originally. We know that they did attempt to collect wreckage in other countries if they could, and the same program had the capacity to collect Soviet wreckage or other more exotic kinds. It was all done by the same outfit, and probably still is.

Edited by TheMcGuffin

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