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msmike1

Why do we fear snakes?

93 posts in this topic

Thanks for sharing your story QuiteContrary, the **** Cobra did puzzle me when I first read it, asterisks are often used on forums to profanity and I was wondering what word you where masking, maybe it was a King Cobra, a

Fuc - King Cobra...

Now those are scary!

Sorry, did not know asterisks are used that way. No, I had originally written King Cobra but edited later.

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You read a urban legend psyche :)

Spiders and snakes do not eat people...I remember that story. ( if it is the same one )

Gidday Sakari

The one I know of is Mark Vogel, he was killed by his black widow, and when the found him he was covered in webs and snakes, and his gecko was munching down on him. The Spiders and snake were most likely not feeding on the corpse, but the insects and animals feeding on the corpse along with his pet Gecko. You are right, I probably worded that badly.

This one

Mark Voegel, 30, was found dead in his Dortmund, Germany apartment. His body was draped in spider webs and more than 200 spiders, several snakes, thousands of termites, and a gecko were feasting on his corpse.

I know he died and was killed by his pet black widow, that much is at find a grave

Birth: 1974 Death: 2004 trans.gif

Mark lived in Dortmund, Germany. He enjoyed owning exotic pets, including more than 200 spiders, several snakes and a gecko. Cause of death was attributed to a bite from his "pet" black widow spider, Bettina. Burial:

Cremated, Other.

Specifically: Dortmund, Germany

Created by: Always with Love

Record added: Feb 13, 2011

Find A Grave Memorial# 65608616

Most definitely not my type of pet. I'll stick with my little puppy :D

Cheers.

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They all have the right to live..im just glad they dont live in my country(except the little adder,grass snakes)...

That is one reason I want to move to New Zealand. Not venomous anythings. No Snakes at all. No Funnel Webs, nothing deadly. You can sleep out in the open in any place and the only thing that will kill you out there is the cold in winter.

I love New Zealand.

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I can say first hand that many water snakes are pretty p***y snakes. I love them, but the bad part is that most see a snake in or near water and it is automatically a water moccasin and needs to die. Ignorant thinking to say the least. I have taken a bite from several different species of water snakes, as we have severl here in the south, and while they do hurt they are completely harmless. I also don't blame them for biting me as I was trying to catch everyone of the ones that bit. Also, very good instruction for anyone in venomous snake territory. As far as captive snakes go, that is an ongoing debate. I have my own feelings on itj, and will be the first to admit some of my feelings may come from selfishness. I love snakes, and want to be around them as much as possible, so I keep a few. Now, I don't keep near as many as I used to, and I use my pets to educate as many as I can about the animals. I also do not keep large snakes, as I do have small children and think it is irresponsible as well as unsafe for anyone with small children to keep large snakes.

Another thing about captive snakes, people see a 5ft long ball python in a 50 gallon aquarium and think that it is a pretty small environment and that the snake doesn't have very much room. Truth is, most snakes are not big travelers. By nature they lay in one spot most of the day and really only move to thermoregulate or find food. Niether of these are a problem in my tanks as they have hot spots, cool spots, climbing branches, water to soak in, and hide boxes which are very important because snakes don't like to sit in the open and if they can't hide it stresses them out.

I also would like to thank everyone who has participated in this thread. Snakes are a passion of mine and I can sit and talk for hours about them to anyone that will listen. It also saddens me that so many hate them and are scared to death of them with their first instinct being to kill them, or swerve to run over them without even knowing what kind of snake it is. There are also so many myths surrounding snakes that its mind boggling. Please, educate yourself on the snakes in your area, hell, if you don't want to take the time ask me and I'll do it for you just give me your state, country, whatever. Maybe next time you see a snake you might stop and think about this thread, and before chopping its head off say to yourself "Hey thats not a venomous snake, why kill it, and let it crawl" Before doing that you must educate yourself on how to tell the difference between venomous and non.

Does this mean that whilst you do not advocate it, you abide by others killing venomous snakes? As long as they are venomous?

I live in SE Queensland Australia. Green snakes are likely to be tree snakes, and I rarely see them, but I do not kill them. I avoid them. But I found a Red Bellied Black swimming in my pool. I rang the RSPCA, they did not want to know, so I rang the council, they did not want to know, so I rang the local WIldlife Sanctuary who put me onto the local snake catcher. I rang him up, he was half drunk at a bar and said he could get there in an hour, but it would cost me $80.00 for him to show up, wether the snake had left by then or not.

Nobody wants to help if you have one of these nasties in your backyard, so options tend to be rather limited. Its illegal to kill them here too as far as I know.

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Well, around 7-8000 people are bitten in the U.S. every year by venomous snakes. Out of those 5-6 people will die. On the other hand every year, according to the CDC, 800,000 people seek treatment for dog bites in the US. and around 16 of those die.

http://www.cdc.gov/H...-factsheet.html

http://ufwildlife.if...nake_faqs.shtml

The second link is to a site with an interesting chart showing number of people killed by different things in the U.S. per year. Snake bites are at the bottom even below spider bites. You also have to take into consideration that a lot of the instances of snake bites happen when people are trying to kill the animal. I would imagine that the vast majority of these people attacked by dogs were not trying to kill it meaning they were somewhat unprovoked. I say this because most snake bites are of a defensive nature, and can even be dry. Dry meaning no venom is injected, just a "leave me the hell alone" type of bite.

Mike

I am still not going to trade my puppy for a Taipan!

:lol:

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Posted (edited)

Gidday Sakari

The one I know of is Mark Vogel, he was killed by his black widow, and when the found him he was covered in webs and snakes, and his gecko was munching down on him. The Spiders and snake were most likely not feeding on the corpse, but the insects and animals feeding on the corpse along with his pet Gecko. You are right, I probably worded that badly.

This one

Mark Voegel, 30, was found dead in his Dortmund, Germany apartment. His body was draped in spider webs and more than 200 spiders, several snakes, thousands of termites, and a gecko were feasting on his corpse.

I know he died and was killed by his pet black widow, that much is at find a grave

Birth: 1974 Death: 2004 trans.gif

Mark lived in Dortmund, Germany. He enjoyed owning exotic pets, including more than 200 spiders, several snakes and a gecko. Cause of death was attributed to a bite from his "pet" black widow spider, Bettina. Burial:

Cremated, Other.

Specifically: Dortmund, Germany

Created by: Always with Love

Record added: Feb 13, 2011

Find A Grave Memorial# 65608616

Most definitely not my type of pet. I'll stick with my little puppy :D

Cheers.

I remember this ghastly case, including this gross detail

one of his giant centipedes burrowed deeply into his arm.

I used to catch black widows way back when I was 8 or 9 years old. And even kept them as an adult. They make fine pets as long as one is mature and gives them the proper respect. I forgot alot of the details about this case, BUT obviously he must have been handling the black widow (maybe intentional envenomation which could entail he received a larger then usual dose of venom from a provoked POed black widow due to mishandleage). I cant recall the details. I dont believe it was a suicide and set his animals loose. But whatever.

A healthy adult male getting bit by a black widow has PLENTY of time to seek medication attention to get shot up full of antivenin and painkillers. Just pick up the phone and dial 911 or go down to emergency themselves (with assistance if necessary). But the advanced stages of a SERIOUS envenomation could entail Latrodectism - where the venom induces severe muscle cramping, profuse sweating, a rock hard washboard stomache cramping that has been measured to appenditicis in the pain factor, etc, etc, etc. Most anybody that gets bitten by a black widow has plenty of time to seek medical attention (but seek it immediately) even after the advanced stages of Latrodectism sets in.

If Mark Voegel had sought medical attention during any time he was physically able even through dialing a friend, he would be alive and loving his exotics to this very day. So I believe but cant recall, it was either intentional (or incidental but Mark attempted to ride it through without medical attention) or a suicide. Fatal bites by black widows is an extremely extremely rare event today due to the massive success of modern medical treatment.

Edited by dside

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Forget most of what I wrote in the post above. ^^^^^

Or better yet, can admins delete it as I was working on memory alone

I did alittle investigating on the Mark Voegel case. The Black Widow is the suspected culprit and how all his pets got loose is the heat lamps burst the glass terrarium tanks.

Just to further iterate some points, black widow bites arent instant death furthermore black widow bites are rarely fatal. If the black widow is the culprit it makes no sense why he didnt get medical attention and save himself. Maybe an extreme reaction but still it would not be instant death. But aside from the former possible cause, we're talking a matter of hours to days even of untreated envenomation. The most susceptible to animal venoms are children, the elderly, and those with compromised immune systems but there are children and elderly survivors of widow bites. Fatal black widow bites is rare.

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I believe camel spiders can only live in deserts and they are nonvenomous. The extra large ones such as found in the Middle East and Africa have no difficulty preying on small vertebrates such as lizards, mice, and snakes which they macerate with powerful chelicerae. And all of them can be abit ballsy when molested by human beings but known for their incredible speed thus they are also called windscorpion, one moment they're there the next *beep,beep* they're gone.

They are supposed to be in the desert, but they are spreading. When I was a child they were around my dads fruit business. At the time we did not know what they were so we called them vampire bugs. I never went barefoot around that place.

Just a few years ago a small one crawled out of the mats at my martial arts school. I kept it for a while as a pet.

They are cool, bug ugly as hell.

Another one that creeps me out are house centipedes. I did not know what those were for a long time either. Turns out they have a nasty sting and run around houses at night.... Lovely.

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Forget most of what I wrote in the post above. ^^^^^

Or better yet, can admins delete it as I was working on memory alone

I did alittle investigating on the Mark Voegel case. The Black Widow is the suspected culprit and how all his pets got loose is the heat lamps burst the glass terrarium tanks.

Just to further iterate some points, black widow bites arent instant death furthermore black widow bites are rarely fatal. If the black widow is the culprit it makes no sense why he didnt get medical attention and save himself. Maybe an extreme reaction but still it would not be instant death. But aside from the former possible cause, we're talking a matter of hours to days even of untreated envenomation. The most susceptible to animal venoms are children, the elderly, and those with compromised immune systems but there are children and elderly survivors of widow bites. Fatal black widow bites is rare.

I also kept some Black Widows as " pets ", but left them in the garage in their own web...I would feed them bugs that were in the house, or in the garage...Growing up in Nevada, there were black widows everywhere you looked....I posted a pic of one of them somewhere on here long ago.....

I was bit by one around 1982 or so, I did not seek medical attention, and did not get sick.Made a gross looking yellowish, bruise like area near my elbow.....

black+widow+spider+bite.jpg

Kind of like that......

But quickly, the venom runs and spreads through the veins, thus attacking the nervous system and causing the victim to develop certain symptoms such as swelling, reddening, nausea, stomachaches, muscular spasms, thorax cramps, abdomen and leg cramps, as well as contractions and deep pain.

Eventually, the venom strikes the nervous terminals, making it hard to breathe and swallow. The symptoms aggravate if the patient does not receive proper treatment/care : chills, sweating, convulsions, deep nausea, headaches, fever and paralysis. However, most cases do not grow so severe.

I should mention I " squished " the spider the same time or if not before it bit me, although I did have above picture wound......Did it working in a " haunted house " for charity.

Not sure why it did not effect me at all.....I was 15 yrs old.

The Black Widow Spider Bite

So, what gives the Black Widow such a bad rep?

Besides the misconceptions mentioned above, it is true that the Black Widow Bite can be serious or even deadly for some people. To be specific, young children, the elderly, and the frail can be more severely affected, as can anyone with an allergy to the venom.

The venom is a potent neurotoxic protein that affects the nervous system, and is about 15 times stronger than a rattlesnake's. Nausea, muscle aches and paralysis of the diaphragm may impair the breathing of human victims.

Whew! Pretty frightening stuff, huh? Don't let it scare you, though. The Black Widow Spider rarely bites humans, and most bites don't even break the skin anyway. Human skin is quite tough, you know. Most people who are bitten walk away with a precautionary tetanus shot, but without any serious harm.

So, you see: in the case of the Black Widow versus Human, the lady spider stands little chance to even put a scratch mark on us. But this doesn't mean you can recklessly work outside without a care for her bite. That would be foolish!......

http://www.my-pest-control-store.com/black-widow-spider.html

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I read the only company that makes coral snake antivenin is not making it any more so, bites will be more dangerous. Don't know if it was only coral snake antivenom they've stopped making .

I guess there is no profit in making it.

Coral snakes are not uncommon in my county and not so hard to find since they are diurnal. But thankfully, not aggressive and very brightly colored.

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Gidday Sakari

The one I know of is Mark Vogel, he was killed by his black widow, and when the found him he was covered in webs and snakes, and his gecko was munching down on him. The Spiders and snake were most likely not feeding on the corpse, but the insects and animals feeding on the corpse along with his pet Gecko. You are right, I probably worded that badly.

This one

Mark Voegel, 30, was found dead in his Dortmund, Germany apartment. His body was draped in spider webs and more than 200 spiders, several snakes, thousands of termites, and a gecko were feasting on his corpse.

I know he died and was killed by his pet black widow, that much is at find a grave

Birth: 1974 Death: 2004 trans.gif

Mark lived in Dortmund, Germany. He enjoyed owning exotic pets, including more than 200 spiders, several snakes and a gecko. Cause of death was attributed to a bite from his "pet" black widow spider, Bettina. Burial:

Cremated, Other.

Specifically: Dortmund, Germany

Created by: Always with Love

Record added: Feb 13, 2011

Find A Grave Memorial# 65608616

Most definitely not my type of pet. I'll stick with my little puppy :D

Cheers.

Nice to know not all Urban Legends are Urban Legends.

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Sorry, did not know asterisks are used that way. No, I had originally written King Cobra but edited later.

Don't be sorry, it was a good read and the **** Cobra made me smile.

I don't know if the use of asterisks is wide spread but it's the first thing that popped into my mind.

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Don't be sorry, it was a good read and the **** Cobra made me smile.

I don't know if the use of asterisks is wide spread but it's the first thing that popped into my mind.

Yeah I thought it was ****ing amazing. lol.

None of my friends would touch it.

I was like "Sure"!

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Posted (edited)

I think what's even more curious is how Northern Europeans are one of the groups most likely to have a strong phobia of spiders, yet all the spiders that are actually dangerous to humans live on the other side of the world to their environment.

You would assume, since Europeans evolved in a colder climates, they would have less of an innate fear of spiders than say Amerindians in South America who would have evolved along side hundreds of species of deadly spiders.

Edited by TheSpoonyOne

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I think what's even more curious is how Northern Europeans are one of the groups most likely to have a strong phobia of spiders, yet all the spiders that are actually dangerous to humans live on the other side of the world to their environment.

You would assume, since Europeans evolved in a colder climates, they would have less of an innate fear of spiders than say Amerindians in South America who would have evolved along side hundreds of species of deadly spiders.

South America doesnt have hundreds of species of deadly spiders, but they do have exotic species of black widows, brown recluses, and one of the most deadliest spiders in the world the Brazilian Wandering Spider (Phoneutria ssp.). They have alot of tarantulas which are no doubt intimidating for their size and those large fangs, but have never caused deaths IIRC.

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They are supposed to be in the desert, but they are spreading. When I was a child they were around my dads fruit business. At the time we did not know what they were so we called them vampire bugs. I never went barefoot around that place.

Just a few years ago a small one crawled out of the mats at my martial arts school. I kept it for a while as a pet.

They are cool, bug ugly as hell.

Another one that creeps me out are house centipedes. I did not know what those were for a long time either. Turns out they have a nasty sting and run around houses at night.... Lovely.

No, house centipedes (Scutigera) dont possess strong venom and have relatively weak bite. I have even handled one here in California and it couldnt break the skin on my fingertip even though it tried and tried and tried. Centipedes are the ones that can possess medically significant venom and can break the skin. Here in North America, it is the giant centipedes (Scolopendra) in Arizona and Texas are the ones to be cautious with.

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Posted (edited)

God I hate doing this, but it is just in my blood......Off topic a bit, but to clarify...

The German man being killed by a black widow is a Urban Legend..`..I thought I remembered this, so here is hopefully enough information to show this, if not I will dig more if needed.Somewhere on this site, it is all ready " debunked "...

Anyway, see for yourself......

Spider bait

Let’s cheer ourselves up with another recent Daily Tele beat-up. Though it did appear only on-line, this one’s a doozy – and it’s almost as old as Lawsie’s jokes.

A man was found dead in his apartment draped in spider webs and more than 200 spiders, several snakes, thousands of termites, and a gecko were feasting on his corpse.

Mark Voegel, 30, was found dead in Dortmund, Germany.

— The Daily Telegraph Online, 26th February, 2011

Read the full Daily Telegraph Online story

Oh yuck! Gruesome! So when did this happen? No hint in the story itself, but we know it was at least three years ago. Look at this...

Pet creepy-crawlies eat human owner.

— news.com.au, 29th August, 2007

Read the full news.com.au story

And yes, it was the same unfortunate German...

Police found Mark Voegel, 30, in his apartment partially eaten by his pet spiders... Sun.co.uk reported.

— news.com.au, 29th August, 2007

Ah, The Sun! Gotta be true then, innit? And when did The Sun find out about Mr Voegel? Let’s see, here it is

Pet spider kills its owner

A man who lived in his own "zoo"... was fatally bitten by a pet black widow spider, then eaten by the other creepy-crawlies.

— The Sun Online

Hey, that’s an even better story. Sure it’s the same bloke? Yep...

Police broke in to Mark Voegel’s apartment...

— The Sun Online

And when was this?

Published: 27 Feb 2004

— The Sun Online, 27th February, 2004

Read the full Sun Online story

Almost exactly seven years ago.

We ask the Dortmund police about Mr Voegel's ghastly fate. They described it as...

a hoax or urban myth

— Wolfgang Wieland, Dortmund Police, 4th March, 2011

All that is true is this:

In 2004 the body of a (at the time) 30 year old male was found in a flat in Tucholsky Street in Dortmund...There were terrariums with spiders in the flat.

— Wolfgang Wieland, Dortmund Police, 4th March, 2011

But the man’s name wasn’t Voegel, he didn’t die of a spider bite, and no spiders, snakes, termites, or geckos were feeding on his corpse. In fact...

Apart from the facts stated above, everything is fabricated...

With friendly greetings

Wolfgang Wieland

— Wolfgang Wieland, Dortmund Police, 4th March, 2011

And freundlichen Grüßen to you too, Wolfgang.

Whoever originally did the fabricating, the story’s been doing its job for years. According to the Tele, one of its most-read stories online last week was...

200 giant spiders, termites feast on man

— The Daily Telegraph Online, 1st March, 2011

Expect to read about the sad fate of Herr Voegel again in, say, 2014. It’s known as click-bait.

Source :

http://www.abc.net.a...ts/s3157350.htm

Edited by Sakari

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God I hate doing this, but it is just in my blood......Off topic a bit, but to clarify...

The German man being killed by a black widow is a Urban Legend..`..I thought I remembered this, so here is hopefully enough information to show this, if not I will dig more if needed.Somewhere on this site, it is all ready " debunked "...

Anyway, see for yourself......

Source :

http://www.abc.net.a...ts/s3157350.htm

Well well well, the Urban Legend is an Urban Legend or isn't or is it?

I feel like I am being lead on a wild goose chase (maybe I should just look into it myself).

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Interesting figures and facts (especially the venom info').

As for Dogs vs Snakes in the danger stakes, I don't think you can really compare the two with these figures.

Firstly you have to consider contact, how many people come into to contact with dogs everyday compared to snakes? I would say there is a lot more contact with dogs therefore its an unfair comparison.

Second, anti-venom. A simple injection (if administered in time) can stop death from most would-be fatal snake bites. As for dog bites, there are doctors but no instant fix such as an anti venom, again probably an unfair comparison.

Now if we look at breeds and species, the majority of snakes pose no threat to people whatsoever, most breeds of dog can kill, some can be stamped on like a spider, without knowing breeds and species again its an unfair comparison.

Unprovoked dog attacks (usually bad owners cause these) against a defensive snake attack (mostly uneducated people again) is again an unfair comparison especially if you are looking at a domesticated animal versus a wild animal.

You are doing with dogs what most people do with snakes, you need to separate a Pitbull from a Chihuahua the same way you would probably like people to separate a Rattlesnake from a Grass Snake.

Venomous Snakes versus Wolves might be a fairer comparison. (Sounds like the title of a YouTube video :unsure2: ).

I could never change your view on dogs being more dangerous than snakes (because a Bull Snake is less dangerous than a German Shepherd dog) but your figures might...

1 in 1363 snake bite victims die but only 1 in 50,000 dog bite victims die.

But like I said its an unfair comparison so we will have to agree to disagree.

I don't, and don't really know if anyone else does, have any figures stating how many people come into contact with snakes on a daily basis. I can assure you it is more than you would think,as most encounters between humans and snakes are known only by the snake. Anti-venom is also a bit more than a simple injection. Not every anti-venom can work for every snakebite. Anti-venoms for the most part are species specific, and if you don't have the right antivenom on hand not just any will work. It is normally injected by the vile and in severe cases it could take upwards of 25 to 30 viles to counter act the venom. Now that is with a highly venomous snake. Not every venomous snake is as dangerous as the next.

To say "most breeds of dogs can kill" is a little of base. I understand what you are saying, but that statement is not supported by any fact, it is just opinion. I respect your opinion, don't get me wrong, but a yorkie could kill someone in the right instance. Domestic vs. Wild is a valid point, and I understand your opinion on the matter. I love dogs too, and have several different breeds of them also, so don't think I am advocating hate towards dogs.

mike

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I don't, and don't really know if anyone else does, have any figures stating how many people come into contact with snakes on a daily basis. I can assure you it is more than you would think,as most encounters between humans and snakes are known only by the snake. Anti-venom is also a bit more than a simple injection. Not every anti-venom can work for every snakebite. Anti-venoms for the most part are species specific, and if you don't have the right antivenom on hand not just any will work. It is normally injected by the vile and in severe cases it could take upwards of 25 to 30 viles to counter act the venom. Now that is with a highly venomous snake. Not every venomous snake is as dangerous as the next.

To say "most breeds of dogs can kill" is a little of base. I understand what you are saying, but that statement is not supported by any fact, it is just opinion. I respect your opinion, don't get me wrong, but a yorkie could kill someone in the right instance. Domestic vs. Wild is a valid point, and I understand your opinion on the matter. I love dogs too, and have several different breeds of them also, so don't think I am advocating hate towards dogs.

mike

Its a tough judgement to call, too many factors and 'dogs are more dangerous than snakes' is a bit to broad a statement to prove/disprove. Especially just based on fatality figures in one country.

Glad you mentioned your a dog owner and not just a snake owner.

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Does this mean that whilst you do not advocate it, you abide by others killing venomous snakes? As long as they are venomous?

I live in SE Queensland Australia. Green snakes are likely to be tree snakes, and I rarely see them, but I do not kill them. I avoid them. But I found a Red Bellied Black swimming in my pool. I rang the RSPCA, they did not want to know, so I rang the council, they did not want to know, so I rang the local WIldlife Sanctuary who put me onto the local snake catcher. I rang him up, he was half drunk at a bar and said he could get there in an hour, but it would cost me $80.00 for him to show up, wether the snake had left by then or not.

Nobody wants to help if you have one of these nasties in your backyard, so options tend to be rather limited. Its illegal to kill them here too as far as I know.

No, in no way do I advocate the killing of a snake venomous or not, unless it is a life or death situation. I understand that there are times when a snake must be killed for whatever reason, but I do not advocate the killing of snakes for no reason. While I am familiar with the different species of snake in Australia I have no experience with them first hand and am not sure of the laws governing them, or the proper procedure to remove a snake from your area. It sounds like they NEED a procedure for removing them. I will say that even though I love all snakes venomous or not, that a person has to do what they have to do to protect themselves or family.

Mike

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Its a tough judgement to call, too many factors and 'dogs are more dangerous than snakes' is a bit to broad a statement to prove/disprove. Especially just based on fatality figures in one country.

Glad you mentioned your a dog owner and not just a snake owner.

LOL, my mother in law along with my wife are permitted wildlife rehabbers. This means that they are premitted through a wildlife organization in my state to rehab injured wildlife of all kinds and release them to the wild, or if need be to humanely uethanize them if they cannot be healed. It is normally a zoo around my house and I never really know what I am coming home to. From, kit foxes running around the living room, to bobcats growling at me from a cage in the bathroom, to a whitetail deer fawn sitting on my couch, to a red tailed hawk eating a chicken leg on my porch and on and on and on. LOL. So, around my house all animals are loved and cared for, not just domestic ones.

Mike

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Watch out for that Whitetail Deer Fawn on the sofa, I hear they grow up to be nasty pieces of work :tu:

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Watch out for that Whitetail Deer Fawn on the sofa, I hear they grow up to be nasty pieces of work :tu:

You are right, they can be pretty nasty at times, but we release them all well before that time comes. The fully mature ones that come in, well, thankfully those are few and far between. If you have never been in an altercation with a fully grown whitetail deer, doe or buck, consider yourself lucky because while amusing to anybody watching it is very painful, lol.

Mike

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Funny a thread like this comes up just after I have seen a video of a python eating a gator. I can only say that I never want to meet any of those bloody things in my life! Sheeesh!

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