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Still Waters

Loch Ness monster cited by US schools as

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That bothers me to too! Then too , improperly using the word then, rather than. . than .

And people who use . .. dots in sentences! lol But.. Long live Nessy! :)

It doen't bother me. It disappoints. University used to be for the gifted and the rich. Nowadays it's for the rich and any other pampered brat that can talk.

But fear not, Lightly. We are in good hands.......

"Is our children learning?" -- A US President (Yale University)

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Aw come on - there is a bright side. The influx of tourism dollars in Scotland is gonna shoot through the roof in the next 5-20 years. Spruce up them "Nessie" props and um, try to make them a little more life like and convincing, even with this boost from the fundamentalists not everyone is gonna stay "fooled" forever.

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What I would like to know is this :-

How does a government allow these types of schools to brainwash children. These poor kids are going to grow up convinced that we walked with dinosaurs and that Nessie is real!

There should be a law against it. I am all for freedom of speech but when it comes to teaching our kids, then they should be taught what is real and not what is pure and utter crap!

We have this thing called the Bill of Rights. If you want to teach your children BS as part of your religion you can. It is called free speech and religion. It is the price we pay for a so called free society.

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Posted (edited)

Aw come on - there is a bright side. The influx of tourism dollars in Scotland is gonna shoot through the roof in the next 5-20 years. Spruce up them "Nessie" props and um, try to make them a little more life like and convincing, even with this boost from the fundamentalists not everyone is gonna stay "fooled" forever.

I'd rather we got money from elsewhere, to be honest.

"Schools" teaching children falsehoods should be illegal. Everywhere. There's the home and "churches" for that kind of stuff.

Innit!

Edited by Eldorado
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I'd rather we got money from elsewhere, to be honest.

"Schools" teaching children falsehoods should be illegal. Everywhere. There's the home and "churches" for that kind of stuff.

Innit!

Hammer...nail ...head ..

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nessietr.jpg
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Wow, this is crazy... I suppose that we dont have to teach actual facts anymore. Anything to prove that the bible is real. :td:

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Posted (edited)

Then than there they're know no, wow I'm still stuck on which witch is which. lol

Edited by CRIPTIC CHAMELEON

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First I have to say this: Plesiosaurs were not ******* dinosaurs! They were marine reptiles! They were much freaking cooler to.

Ok, getting that off my chest... I went through the ACE program up to third grade. After transferring to a school that was still religious, but followed the standard education program here in the US, I found myself woefully unprepared for what was supposed to be my grade level. This has been a frequent criticism I've seen leveled against the ACE program as well from others, that it doesn't adequately prepare students even on such topics as math that don't run into religious conflicts.

(Unless the fundamentalism goes to the extent of forcing pi to equal 3, I didn't get that far.)

We have this thing called the Bill of Rights. If you want to teach your children BS as part of your religion you can. It is called free speech and religion. It is the price we pay for a so called free society.

We also have the seperation of powers, establishing that the government can not rule in favor of religion. While this is much ignored in the US, ACE programs are allowed in State schools over standard models.

Admittedly the standard model here in the US isn't the best, but the ACE program is worse.

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Posted (edited)

I only read the first page of this thread and maybe the tone changed but it worries me tha the suggestion is that a belief in creationism correlates to low intelligence or lack of education.

I am an evolutioist because it is the only logical, scientific possibilty.

However creationism is A BELIEF system, despite how much some of its proponents try to argue it factually.

Beliefs are unrelated to inteligence and constructed from and for entirely differnt reasons and processes, than knowledge. If a belief is held strongly enough, it may displace knowledge. To some this is irrational, but if the belief system offers greater benefits to an individual than knowledge then it is a rational and profitable world view

Hence intelligence has nothing to do with belief. Belief is based on people's needs and priorities. Certainly an education my help someone with no strong beliefs confirm the scientific/evolutionary history of our planet, but it cannot and will not "convert " a person who has other strong reasons for belief no matter how intelligent that person is. For many the cahnace at immortality outweighs how the earth and life began as a priority. If you link a creator figure to eternal life then you have a very powerful motivator for belief in creation.

If a religious belief makes you happy and empowered then who can argue against it on a rational basis.

Edited by Mr Walker
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I only read the first page of this thread and maybe the tone changed but it worries me tha the suggestion is that a belief in creationism correlates to low intelligence or lack of education.

I am an evolutioist because it is the only logical, scientific possibilty.

However creationism is A BELIEF system, despite how much some of its proponents try to argue it factually.

Beliefs are unrelated to inteligence and constructed from and for entirely differnt reasons and processes, than knowledge. If a belief is held strongly enough, it may displace knowledge. To some this is irrational, but if the belief system offers greater benefits to an individual than knowledge then it is a rational and profitable world view

Hence intelligence has nothing to do with belief. Belief is based on people's needs and priorities. Certainly an education my help someone with no strong beliefs confirm the scientific/evolutionary history of our planet, but it cannot and will not "convert " a person who has other strong reasons for belief no matter how intelligent that person is. For many the cahnace at immortality outweighs how the earth and life began as a priority. If you link a creator figure to eternal life then you have a very powerful motivator for belief in creation.

If a religious belief makes you happy and empowered then who can argue against it on a rational basis.

First of all, sorry, I clicked the like button in error.

Secondly, Mr Walker, we are talking here about the education of our children. Children should be educated with the truth, not some mistaken religous belief.

Children do not have strong religous beliefs. At least not until they are brainwashed into believing by the type of school being discussed in this topic. Then they grow up and realise that what they were taught at school is incorrect. I would imagine that this would also cause them to reject the particular religion that was rammed down their throats whilst at school!

I agree with you that intelligence, and belief in a particular religion are not connected. But one has to admit that in the face of all the evidence, to believe in creationism is a tad strange for somebody of intelligence. In fact, I would go as far as to say it is complete ignorance. Something which should definitely not be taught in any school! :)

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creationism.jpg

This may be the funniest thing I've seen all week. Thanks for the post.

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It doen't bother me. It disappoints. University used to be for the gifted and the rich. Nowadays it's for the rich and any other pampered brat that can talk.

But fear not, Lightly. We are in good hands.......

"Is our children learning?" -- A US President (Yale University)

Can I guess who said that? Can I? Can I? This is a great thread, gad, you people are funny.

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Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.

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Posted (edited)

I only read the first page of this thread and maybe the tone changed but it worries me tha the suggestion is that a belief in creationism correlates to low intelligence or lack of education.

I am an evolutioist because it is the only logical, scientific possibilty.

However creationism is A BELIEF system, despite how much some of its proponents try to argue it factually.

Beliefs are unrelated to inteligence and constructed from and for entirely differnt reasons and processes, than knowledge. If a belief is held strongly enough, it may displace knowledge. To some this is irrational, but if the belief system offers greater benefits to an individual than knowledge then it is a rational and profitable world view

Hence intelligence has nothing to do with belief. Belief is based on people's needs and priorities. Certainly an education my help someone with no strong beliefs confirm the scientific/evolutionary history of our planet, but it cannot and will not "convert " a person who has other strong reasons for belief no matter how intelligent that person is. For many the cahnace at immortality outweighs how the earth and life began as a priority. If you link a creator figure to eternal life then you have a very powerful motivator for belief in creation.

If a religious belief makes you happy and empowered then who can argue against it on a rational basis.

Maybe you should have read through the posts. It seems to me most people here are commenting on the quality of education rather than calling creationists unintelligent. I referred to it as willful ignorance.

And whilst understand why they cling to such beliefs, I don't agree that there's anything rational about it.

Edited by Arbenol68

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Posted (edited)

Well then, they might want to start by disproving carbon dateing. Or how fast top soils accumulate or fossilization occurres. That might be a start.

Edited by Seeker79

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First of all, sorry, I clicked the like button in error.

Secondly, Mr Walker, we are talking here about the education of our children. Children should be educated with the truth, not some mistaken religous belief.

Children do not have strong religous beliefs. At least not until they are brainwashed into believing by the type of school being discussed in this topic. Then they grow up and realise that what they were taught at school is incorrect. I would imagine that this would also cause them to reject the particular religion that was rammed down their throats whilst at school!

I agree with you that intelligence, and belief in a particular religion are not connected. But one has to admit that in the face of all the evidence, to believe in creationism is a tad strange for somebody of intelligence. In fact, I would go as far as to say it is complete ignorance. Something which should definitely not be taught in any school! :)

Humans have both knowledge bases and beliefs. That is what makles us unique among known beings.

Second, children do not have to be taught beliefs. Once they are taught language they co- evolve their own beliefs as a part of the proces of thought and language development.

Third there is nothing wrong with beliefs per se and often many advantages to holding them.

There is no such thing as a mistaken belief while it remains a belief, merely more productive and less productive beliefs. For example no one can demonstrate that a belief in a god is a mistaken belief, any more than a general belief in extra terrestrial beings, and many people would laugh at anyone who attempted this, for a variety of good reasons.

One can teach a child just one belief, or teach them many beliefs. For examle all moralities and ethicla philosophicla systems are nothing more than humanbelief systems, based on he things we value. Those values are, themselves, only beliefs.

But only an individual can CHOOSE a belief and truly hold it, because that is what a belief is There are numerous articles on the formation and construction of human belief, from the fields of psychology to those of human neurology and speech.

I agree with you that, given the huge preponderance of evidence it at first seems a bit strange for an intelligent educated individual to believe in a creator god and a created earth. But of course belief is not formulated using the same logic values and data as knowledge bases are.

Take for example a hypothetical university professor of mathematics who loses his/her children and or wife /husband (dont want o be sexist here in an accident or terorist event. A non believer must grieve and accepet the permanent loss of those loved ones. However a believer may genuinely look forward to reuniting with both spouse and children. Whether this happens is irrelevant. One person has a much happier and improved quality of life. That makes, for tha t person, belief a viable and logical option. It costs nothing in real terms. Of course one can believe in many variants One does not have to connect ressurection with a creator god,it just happens that one of the most common forms of christianty does so. MAny modern christians believe in a literal physiclal after life while believing in the scientific process of evolution. In that case there is no conflicting knowledge in the two positions.

Humans construct and hold beleif positions for very good and rational reasons/ They will not disappear as long as those reasons hold good and reasonable to the individuals concerned Do you believe in human induced global warming? Do you believe that we can have continued development and growth? Do you believe that gravity is a universal constant Do you believe we will ever observe higgs/ boson particles?

Lastly i would agree that believing creation science iss the equivalent to evolutionary science is illogical and probably delusional. Certainly it should never be taught as a science in govt schools.

However, one could accept readily every piece of evolutionary evidence, and still believe in creation, simply by rationalising that the creator god created all the evidences for evolution, perhaps as a test of belief in humans. One can't logically argue against belief, because it is not formed on evidentiary premises. By its nature, it must be formed /created where no evidences exist.

Ps. I am shattered that you hit the like button in error. It's the first one ive had for a couple of weeks, but i will get over it :passifier:

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Maybe you should have read through the posts. It seems to me most people here are commenting on the quality of education rather than calling creationists unintelligent. I referred to it as willful ignorance.

And whilst understand why they cling to such beliefs, I don't agree that there's anything rational about it.

I wrote that i was commenting on the first page, and there were some quite derogatory comments on that page.

If beliefs did not have a net positive outcome for humans we woud not create them. The constriuction of beliefs is rational for at least two enduring reasons. First they are inarguable, as beliefs; One cannot prove/disprove a belief (see my post above) and second, they often provide very real benefits for the believers both psychological/emotional, and physical such as extended and healthier lives. This is also inarguable given the evidences. A rational human being seeks all advantages and benefits they can in their life. If you cant see this, then you do not understand humanity very well or refuse to accept itsr evolved nature.

Belies grow from our desire to make sense of our world and also from things like pattern recognition, self awareness of our sapience, and the logical application of such abilities. They have long formed a logical/ protective basis for human behaviour in both prehistoric and historical societies. A religion or other belief may pass its use by date, but it will then evolve or adapt, or another will take its place.

To chose a beneficial and productive belief system is not ignorant and arguably is less ignorant than refusing to chose one, given that belief exists where knowledge does not. Almost every human who ever lived operates on a complex set, or system, of beliefs about them selves and their world

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Posted (edited)

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.

No that was Noah...even with his hangover he insisted on building an ark...

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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Posted (edited)

Humans have both knowledge bases and beliefs. That is what makles us unique among known beings.

Frankly, what makes us appear unique amongst all the creatures of this planet is our inability to communicate with them and their apparent lack of intelligence. We don't know if they have beliefs or knowledge bases beyond what they outwardly exhibit.

Second, children do not have to be taught beliefs. Once they are taught language they co- evolve their own beliefs as a part of the proces of thought and language development.

Children who are not taught beliefs by *anyone* will not come up with what religion or creationism says on their own. The fact is kids are exposed to all kinds of things their parents may not know about or be able to control. That's why we've had people fight to get prayer out of schools in the US; people who didn't follow a religion did not want their children exposed to it.

Third there is nothing wrong with beliefs per se and often many advantages to holding them.

Holding a belief is like holding on to the nicest watermelon in the patch. As long as you hold that watermelon, generations of watermelons can come and go, but you'll never know if there was a better one because you wouldn't let go of the one you're holding. In terms of beliefs, as long as you're holding onto an idea and believing in it, you won't be able to see the truth. For that, you have to let go of everything you think you know.

Take for example a hypothetical university professor of mathematics who loses his/her children and or wife /husband (dont want o be sexist here in an accident or terorist event. A non believer must grieve and accepet the permanent loss of those loved ones. However a believer may genuinely look forward to reuniting with both spouse and children. Whether this happens is irrelevant. One person has a much happier and improved quality of life. That makes, for tha t person, belief a viable and logical option. It costs nothing in real terms.

Where you see a person having a happier and improved quality of life, I see a person who is deluding themselves and incapable of truly coping with their grief. Not coping with grief will ultimately cause unhappiness and may even cause a person to become completely absorbed in a fantasy world in their head, where they don't truly suffer any grief or guilt.

I have a problem with the idea that people shouldn't experience their grief, that they shouldn't work through it and find inner strength despite the adversity they've faced. I've seen many turn to religion or belief in order to escape their grief, and over time they become shells. I'm not saying this applies to everyone with belief, but I know it applies to some. That is why I cannot agree that belief is a good thing across the board, there are many examples where it does great harm.

Humans construct and hold beleif positions for very good and rational reasons/

Sometimes that may be the case, but much of the time it is not. Sometimes humans form beliefs as a coping mechanism - in order to avoid or escape pain. A person who has caused another harm can believe that they had no other choice, or any number of things to aleviate their guilt - but that belief would still be false and unhealthy. Some people gravitate to religion because they want answers, forgiveness, or a feeling of belonging.

Edited by karmakazi
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this is EVERYTHING wrong with a "free society".

some people are too stupid to have a vote, or in this case, a say in what children are educated with.

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Frankly, what makes us appear unique amongst all the creatures of this planet is our inability to communicate with them and their apparent lack of intelligence. We don't know if they have beliefs or knowledge bases beyond what they outwardly exhibit.

Children who are not taught beliefs by *anyone* will not come up with what religion or creationism says on their own. The fact is kids are exposed to all kinds of things their parents may not know about or be able to control. That's why we've had people fight to get prayer out of schools in the US; people who didn't follow a religion did not want their children exposed to it.

Holding a belief is like holding on to the nicest watermelon in the patch. As long as you hold that watermelon, generations of watermelons can come and go, but you'll never know if there was a better one because you wouldn't let go of the one you're holding. In terms of beliefs, as long as you're holding onto an idea and believing in it, you won't be able to see the truth. For that, you have to let go of everything you think you know.

Where you see a person having a happier and improved quality of life, I see a person who is deluding themselves and incapable of truly coping with their grief. Not coping with grief will ultimately cause unhappiness and may even cause a person to become completely absorbed in a fantasy world in their head, where they don't truly suffer any grief or guilt.

I have a problem with the idea that people shouldn't experience their grief, that they shouldn't work through it and find inner strength despite the adversity they've faced. I've seen many turn to religion or belief in order to escape their grief, and over time they become shells. I'm not saying this applies to everyone with belief, but I know it applies to some. That is why I cannot agree that belief is a good thing across the board, there are many examples where it does great harm.

Sometimes that may be the case, but much of the time it is not. Sometimes humans form beliefs as a coping mechanism - in order to avoid or escape pain. A person who has caused another harm can believe that they had no other choice, or any number of things to aleviate their guilt - but that belief would still be false and unhealthy. Some people gravitate to religion because they want answers, forgiveness, or a feeling of belonging.

We are not unique in being unable to communicate cross species. It is a universal trait. Actually we do know they do not have those things because we know now that they are a product of thought processes which are inextricably connected to language. Without human level linguistic abilities it is physically ipossible to achieve human level beliefs or knowledge bases. Only evolved abilities are available to them.

Actually it has been proven scientifically that all human children who are taught to speak, and thus to think, construct their own belief systems; and while they may adopt their parents or other taught models, if those are not provided they create their own as part of their evolving sapience and language skills. Its a natural consequence of our capabilities in thought/language.

Belief has nothing to do with truths. Neither does disbelief. Do you KNOW there is/are no god(s)? Belief exists outside or beyond evidential proofs. That is the only place it can exist.

And your belief about coping is delusional. Let us suppose there is a pill which alleviates all pain. No one can prove HOW it works but demonstrably it works. You are suggesting people should not take that pill but "tough it out", as if that somehow is a superior reaction. If you broke your leg would you take a pain killer? If you were clinically depressed and or grieving, would you take medicine to help you?

Many people have a more sophisticated understanding of the power and benefits of belief These have been medically and psychologically proven and demonstrated. But let us suppose it was purely a placebo effect You are arrogant enoguh to suggest that on the basis of your disbelief people are better off "suffering honestly".

First how do you KNOW their faith is delusional and second, what right do you have to deny them even a placebo effect. I think this attitude reflects your own fears and prejudices more than reality.The rest of your argument might have very minor merit but i have never observed the effects you relate I doiHAVE a personal and historical understanding of how billions of humans benefit from beliefs and why this works. It is true that grief can, and does, make shells of people and even drives them to suicide, but i have seen more non spiritual people destroyed by grief than spiritual ones. People with a belief COPE, in large part, because of that belief.

I will give you that people turn to beliefs and religions for many reasons. They stick with those beliefs because they are effective. People aren't stupid. They go with that which works for them.There is absolutely nothing wrong with people wanting answers forgiveness or belonging. All three are very high on the hierachy of human needs. Are you suggesting they cannot have these things, or should manage without them? In practice that causes greater pain and psychological harm, again leading to physical illnesses, harm and ultimately, in many cases, suicide.

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To hold a belief that flies in the face of science & established facts seems counterproductive. And there seems to me to be something inherently flawed in a determination to hold onto such a belief that requires denial of the realities of science. Belief without thought and introspection, any belief religious or otherwise, that requires one to give up common sense, seems, IMHO, obstructive to further growth & development & maturation.

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We are not unique in being unable to communicate cross species. It is a universal trait. Actually we do know they do not have those things because we know now that they are a product of thought processes which are inextricably connected to language. Without human level linguistic abilities it is physically ipossible to achieve human level beliefs or knowledge bases. Only evolved abilities are available to them.

I did not mean that our incapability to communicate made us different from other species, as far as we know, there is no species that can effectively communicate with a different species.

What I meant was, because we cannot communicate with other species, we assume ourselves to be unique. They cannot tell us otherwise.

Actually it has been proven scientifically that all human children who are taught to speak, and thus to think, construct their own belief systems;

Yes. Their OWN belief systems. That was my point.

Belief has nothing to do with truths. Neither does disbelief. Belief exists outside or beyond evidential proofs. That is the only place it can exist.

I said truth, not proof. There's a difference, especially in spiritual matters. Truth is something that is ultimately elusive because of the human condition, which is why anyone who believes they know truth is harmed by that belief - it is a falsehood.

Do you KNOW there is/are no god(s)?

Jumping to conclusions? Just because I don't have a specific belief in who or what god is does not mean I'm an atheist. I prefer to allow whatever is out there to reveal itself to me as it deems fit, not chase after a story written by someone else about their own personal experience.

Therein lies one of my biggest problems with belief. Just because you have spiritual experiences does not mean the source of those experiences fits in the nice neat little package of a belief system. Hence the reason I said belief closes people off from the truth.

None of us knows what is out there. A belief is the assertion that you do know what is out there. That is a delusion whether you like it, or not.

And your belief about coping is delusional. Let us suppose there is a pill which alleviates all pain. No one can prove HOW it works but demonstrably it works. You are suggesting people should not take that pill but "tough it out", as if that somehow is a superior reaction. If you broke your leg would you take a pain killer? If you were clinically depressed and or grieving, would you take medicine to help you?

Incidentally, I have been clinically depressed off and on throughout my life. A pill isn't a magic fix and I've never taken depression medication. Instead, I've worked through my feelings by writing about them until I work through them. It's very effective and it has really improved my ability to cope and interact with other people. There are studies that show that exercising regularly may be as effective as anti-depressants. Between journalling and exercise, there are two ways a person can help themselves rather than relying on magic pills.

That's what I'm talking about... doing the work to aleviate one's own suffering rather than taking a dodge.

Many people have a more sophisticated understanding of the power and benefits of belief These have been medically and psychologically proven and demonstrated. But let us suppose it was purely a placebo effect You are arrogant enoguh to suggest that on the basis of your disbelief people are better off "suffering honestly".

Coping is simply a method of aleviating suffering. Instead of avoiding it, you push through it to the other side and that is the only way to genuinely put the suffering behind you.

First how do you KNOW their faith is delusional

I am talking about people I have known all of my life, inside and out, and the other people I've met who have very, very similar personalities and beliefs.

Here's an example. If you walked into a home where the person had boxes and garbage piled floor to ceiling with barely any room to walk, or a middle aged woman's house that was chock full of dolls or stuffed animals, would that seem healthy to you? Would you look at it and think "Nope, this person is not suffering." ?

There is something that happens in the mind that causes a person to do those things, something that most people agree isn't natural or healthy, and usually happens after tragedy that the person never fully copes with. I'm talking about that exact same personality type, which instead of (or in addition to) hoarding turns to religion.

and second, what right do you have to deny them even a placebo effect.

What makes you think I want to deny them? I was merely pointing out something that I have observed. Everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe. This isn't me laying down laws of how to live, I am discussing observations I've made that relate to the overal context of the thread. A discussion doesn't force or deny anyone the right to anything.

Furthermore, in reference to my example above, if someone is living in a hoarded house, the people who care about them recognize that it is not safe for them or healthy for them to avoid coping. The same is true of anyone who avoids coping. It degrades a person's ability to interact with others, to really live their lives, to even experience spiritual joy.

Not coping with something prolongs the pain... a placebo only masks the pain.

I think this attitude reflects your own fears and prejudices more than reality.

Think whatever you like, but understand that this has nothing to do with my own fears and prejudices.

I will give you that people turn to beliefs and religions for many reasons. They stick with those beliefs because they are effective.

Or because they are afraid not to... punishment for turning away is usually ultimate.

People aren't stupid.

Yet a person who is not stupid is likely to give up their own sensibilities in order to be a part of something. Scientific study has observed this effect, it's called groupthink.

They go with that which works for them.There is absolutely nothing wrong with people wanting answers forgiveness or belonging. All three are very high on the hierachy of human needs. Are you suggesting they cannot have these things, or should manage without them? In practice that causes greater pain and psychological harm, again leading to physical illnesses, harm and ultimately, in many cases, suicide.

I am suggesting that as human beings the great answers are too great for us to comprehend. Therefore we should practice faith rather than belief.

I'm suggesting that forgiveness comes from within first, not from without.

I'm suggesting that belonging is awesome, only if you belong because you're being true to yourself rather than liking or believing or buying or saying something because it will make you appear to belong. This is something many people do (dare I say most?) even if you can't see it.

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Well when the children look it up on the internet or find out later in life... The whole thing will backfire and they will hate the religion. So in the long run they are just making the situation worse for themselves and their religion. lol

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