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Still Waters

Loch Ness monster cited by US schools as

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We dont have evidence of evolution of todays anatomicly human because it probably happened in forest as our ancestors liked trees. And scince forset are acid areas>No fossils>No evidence.

Atleast thats what Taphonomy teach us.

Sorry but you are definitely wrong. It was the lush forests of prehistoric times which gave us fossil fuels. If you care to break open a few chunks of coal, you will no doubt find fossilied plantlife such as ferns etc. We also get amber from fossiled resin from these very trees. Therefore...fossils...=....evidence! Looks like Taphonomy teaches the wrong thing :)

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I did not mean that our incapability to communicate made us different from other species, as far as we know, there is no species that can effectively communicate with a different species.

What I meant was, because we cannot communicate with other species, we assume ourselves to be unique. They cannot tell us otherwise.

Yes. Their OWN belief systems. That was my point.

I said truth, not proof. There's a difference, especially in spiritual matters. Truth is something that is ultimately elusive because of the human condition, which is why anyone who believes they know truth is harmed by that belief - it is a falsehood.

Jumping to conclusions? Just because I don't have a specific belief in who or what god is does not mean I'm an atheist. I prefer to allow whatever is out there to reveal itself to me as it deems fit, not chase after a story written by someone else about their own personal experience.

Therein lies one of my biggest problems with belief. Just because you have spiritual experiences does not mean the source of those experiences fits in the nice neat little package of a belief system. Hence the reason I said belief closes people off from the truth.

None of us knows what is out there. A belief is the assertion that you do know what is out there. That is a delusion whether you like it, or not.

Incidentally, I have been clinically depressed off and on throughout my life. A pill isn't a magic fix and I've never taken depression medication. Instead, I've worked through my feelings by writing about them until I work through them. It's very effective and it has really improved my ability to cope and interact with other people. There are studies that show that exercising regularly may be as effective as anti-depressants. Between journalling and exercise, there are two ways a person can help themselves rather than relying on magic pills.

That's what I'm talking about... doing the work to aleviate one's own suffering rather than taking a dodge.

Coping is simply a method of aleviating suffering. Instead of avoiding it, you push through it to the other side and that is the only way to genuinely put the suffering behind you.

I am talking about people I have known all of my life, inside and out, and the other people I've met who have very, very similar personalities and beliefs.

Here's an example. If you walked into a home where the person had boxes and garbage piled floor to ceiling with barely any room to walk, or a middle aged woman's house that was chock full of dolls or stuffed animals, would that seem healthy to you? Would you look at it and think "Nope, this person is not suffering." ?

There is something that happens in the mind that causes a person to do those things, something that most people agree isn't natural or healthy, and usually happens after tragedy that the person never fully copes with. I'm talking about that exact same personality type, which instead of (or in addition to) hoarding turns to religion.

What makes you think I want to deny them? I was merely pointing out something that I have observed. Everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe. This isn't me laying down laws of how to live, I am discussing observations I've made that relate to the overal context of the thread. A discussion doesn't force or deny anyone the right to anything.

Furthermore, in reference to my example above, if someone is living in a hoarded house, the people who care about them recognize that it is not safe for them or healthy for them to avoid coping. The same is true of anyone who avoids coping. It degrades a person's ability to interact with others, to really live their lives, to even experience spiritual joy.

Not coping with something prolongs the pain... a placebo only masks the pain.

Think whatever you like, but understand that this has nothing to do with my own fears and prejudices.

Or because they are afraid not to... punishment for turning away is usually ultimate.

Yet a person who is not stupid is likely to give up their own sensibilities in order to be a part of something. Scientific study has observed this effect, it's called groupthink.

I am suggesting that as human beings the great answers are too great for us to comprehend. Therefore we should practice faith rather than belief.

I'm suggesting that forgiveness comes from within first, not from without.

I'm suggesting that belonging is awesome, only if you belong because you're being true to yourself rather than liking or believing or buying or saying something because it will make you appear to belong. This is something many people do (dare I say most?) even if you can't see it.

Ok with each response I am coming to understand your world view a little better. I agree, in part withyour first two points but our science allows us to understand our own neurological and linguistic capabilities, and also to look at those of all other life forms. We can see and understand ourselves and other life forms and we CAN ascertain the differences .

Third point. i was asking a question. If you dont/cant KNOW that god does not exist, then your position is a belief, same as a believers; and formed on the same basis and using simliar logic and rationales. You are absolutley wrong in regards to belief in saying that believe something as truth is harmful All the evidences and statistics illustrate otherwise. If a physical truth is unknowable then any belief about it which is productive is a good belief. Thats WHY human form and hold beliefs. It is beneficial and productive to do so, irrespective of any unknowable truth.

An assertion is not a delusion it is just an assertion. If i argue that gravity is not a universal constant, then there is nothing delusional about that belief position.

As i suspected you believe in personal effort to overcome personall problems. Very commendable and yes rational. But you are wrong to argue that because this works for you it is the BEST method. There is nothing wrong (and a lot of logic) in acieveng exactly yht e same results withnothing more than a change in mindset.

I can see why you might be upset, having worked so hard, if i told you, truthfully, that you could achieve the same results just by mental discipline or by a belief system. You see that as cheating or a weakness. I see it as a highly effective/efficient evolved abilty of humans to cope with many of the problems our self aware ness creates within us, such as our own inevitable mortality and abilty to grieve ..

I dont have much sympathy for martrys especially those who believe al others should also martyr them selves There is nothing wrong with coping while the grief cycle progresses Education in the stages of grief is essential but amny humas are rendered incapable for a time by the process of grief This is neither natural nor necessary Grief is a state of mind produced by the level of our self aware spaience It can be manipulated and controled through that same self aware process. it is natural to grieve but not productive to grieve to a point where one is incapable or suicidal.

. I understand your points about pain and coping, but i repeat. Do you think pain and suffering should be accepted as a part of the natural human condition and why? If so, do you refuse to take pain killers etc.

Sure one can learn to cope wit excruciating toothache but we gave up having to 150 years ago. Why should we see psychological pain and suffering as any different from, or inevitable than, physical pain in our lives. We must recognise its purpose and consequences but we do not have to cope with it or endure it any more than we do with physicl apain There are many ways to cope and reduce pain one of the best known to mankind is faith /belief. It even considerably reduces the degree of physical pain a person experiences and strongly enhances psychological coping.

I think i must be missing something you are trying to explain, because i dont get your separation of faith /belief and religion. Religion is just a way humans codify their own spiritual beliefs and faiths. They may create their own or connect to one which appeals to them. It is the belief and faith which performs the healing, more than the religion, although social aspects of religion such as a community of supporters also helps.

Not coping with something prolongs the pain... a placebo only masks the pain.

I dont get this as part of your argument unless you honestly see pain as a good and neceesaary part of the human condition. Humans heal naturally but often need professional help to do so. Such professional help has only been effectively available in the last two centuries for physical pain and in the last century for psychologial pain. There is no need for pain in a modernTlife true coping allieveates pain and so do placebos Belief and faith do the same They also integrate a person into a more healthy and productive relationship with others and with their their environment bleifs have helped humans cope and reduce pain and suffering since we became self aware

I suspect you dont like/appreciate the use of faith and belief to cope. Fair enough dont use it for yourself, although i think that makes you a mug like someone who wont use painkillers when needed because they dont believe in them. BUT dont tell others or suggest, that it is cheating, unfair, dangerous, or counter productive. Both history and modern science proves that faith and belief is highly beneficial to human beings.

There is no evidence that the reasons for belief influence its outcomes. If the belief is genuine it will produce positive outcomes.

I disagree with you about why people believe, based on reading material on the construction of human belief. I accept that there are many motivators for belief, but basically belief endures BECAUSE it works. We ALL live our life around a set of inner beliefs. Our moralities, ethics, even love and hate, are belief sets which determine our behaviours.

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How can believing something that is patently untrue be healthy or beneficial?

All the evidence suggests that it not only can be, but Is.

However define "patently untrue" I agree that the creation of the earth by god is impossible on the scientific evidences and I am an evolutionist, but what has that got to do with belief? Can you prove that god did not create the earth with all the evidences for creation included If not you can't logically argue with a person who holds to that belief You cant prove his BELIEF untrue. For a person with an apriori absolute belief in god then the evidences are immaterial They mus be made to fit the existing belief system.

The good news for all humans is that the actual existence or not of the god or entity believed in is irrelevant and immaterial. Just belief alone confers huge physical and psychological benefits on a believer. The most modern studies in science, medicine and psychology, including those in the last 5 years continue to confirm this.

So; teach your children to believe in gaea the goddess of earth, or in the pagan spirits of the environment, and actuarially, all other things being equal, they will have a longer happier and healthier life, suffer pain less, and be psychologically more "adjusted", than their athiestic counterparts.

This is also true whatever spiritual belief system they hold as individuals.

Personally i would look for a system which is also productive/ beneficial and suited to your local society.

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Bit of a strawman you've built there. You've not argued against anything I actually wrote.

We're talking about Young Earth Creationists. Your examples, whilst supported by some evidence, is related to religious beliefs in general. You wrote: "A religion or other belief may pass its use by date, but it will then evolve or adapt, or another will take its place". YEC is the antithesis of this.

YEC is not a "beneficial and productive belief system" - it's the unthinking adherence to dogma and ideology in the face of overwhelming evidence against it. I don't see how that could be beneficial.

See above posts. In general, belief is advantageous to the holder of the belief. However a belief like creationism if it is APPLIED in the real world may cause problems and disadvantges to the holder .

However i know amny people, including professional and highly educated people who believe in a creator god without any harmful effects on them or others. in fact because it is part of a larger belief which promotes helping others, such people generally benefit their neighbour hood and the world(and are, incidentally, because of their nature much loved and respected by their communities) Such peole often chose this belief because they know god is real or believe very srongly in gods existence From that they argue for a creator god whatever other evidences may argue against such a view.

I know god is real, but logically assume it is a product of the same evolutionary process I am. So i have no conflict between a real physical and powerful god, and evoution.

In general YEC is a last ditch effort to hold onto the concept of a creator god in face of all the scientif ic evidence now available. It requires a person either to fool/blind them selves about the science or to split their mind into knowledge and belief and prioritise belief; BUT the belief itself brings benefits to the believer and these are scientifically established. They have to be weighed against the harm which can be done if such beliefs are allowed to be taught as fact.

I've already made clear my total opposition to the teaching of YEC as any form of fact, in schools or out of them. But in a free society the teaching of the BELIEF is as acceptable as any other, and it does bring benefits to its believers that no one else has the right to deprive them of.

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Posted (edited)

You mean like Lucy?

No. Read what I wrote.

Perhaps you should take some time to look at this site and others which lists hominid fossils by continent and by different regions of Africa.

Im aware about fossils elsewhere. Every new skull found we alomost found new spicies.So....Again we conclude about humans mostly from east side story.

Homo habilis, it seems.

Homo habilis is the first species for which we have positive evidence of use of stone tools.

http://en.wikipedia....Human_evolution

I didnt go to see that link (I believe your quotation) but thats a pure lie since at site of earliest tools there are no signs of any spicies so scientists could not conclude who made them. You just gave example how people can easily be mislead. It seems ...Yes to ones who can be easily foolished.

Edited by the L

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Sorry but you are definitely wrong. It was the lush forests of prehistoric times which gave us fossil fuels. If you care to break open a few chunks of coal, you will no doubt find fossilied plantlife such as ferns etc. We also get amber from fossiled resin from these very trees. Therefore...fossils...=....evidence! Looks like Taphonomy teaches the wrong thing :)

No it doesnt teach wrong. Because in acid areas bones could not be preserved.

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You need to say what you mean in the first place. You said 'fossils'' I corrected you :)

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In general YEC is a last ditch effort to hold onto the concept of a creator god in face of all the scientif ic evidence now available. It requires a person either to fool/blind them selves about the science or to split their mind into knowledge and belief and prioritise belief; BUT the belief itself brings benefits to the believer and these are scientifically established. They have to be weighed against the harm which can be done if such beliefs are allowed to be taught as fact.

I think it's way beyond 'last ditch'. I see those that try to find God in cosmological arguments as those taking the final stand.

As for the rest, if you look at the 2nd post I made in this thread, I wrote about importance of belief over unassailable scientific truths, and those that refuse to hear anything that contradicts these. This is what I referred to as willful ignorance, whilst you say "It requires a person either to fool/blind them selves about the science". Sounds like we agree on that.

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'I ve already made clear my total opposition to the teaching of YEC as any form of fact, in schools or out of them. But in a free society the teaching of the BELIEF is as acceptable as any other, and it does bring benefits to its believers that no one else has the right to deprive them of

So do you by any chance believe that the life around is a product of the creation process?...If its that this is all about, I am afraid we are travelling to the same old discussion, again and again

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Sure one can learn to cope wit excruciating toothache but we gave up having to 150 years ago.

A toothache is a good analogy.

The toothache is the pain.

You suggest people take painkillers as long as it takes till the tooth breaks and falls out on it's own.

I suggest they get that tooth pulled insted of allowing it to fester.

I think i must be missing something you are trying to explain, because i dont get your separation of faith /belief and religion. Religion is just a way humans codify their own spiritual beliefs and faiths. They may create their own or connect to one which appeals to them. It is the belief and faith which performs the healing, more than the religion, although social aspects of religion such as a community of supporters also helps.

Faith - trust in someone/something without knowing its whole truth

Belief - conviction that something is true, regardless of its ability to be proven

Religion - a group of specific beliefs, practices and rituals

My problem with religion is that people join a religion and accept the beliefs, the mythology, and the system already in place. If a person does define their own, that is different. I encourage it.

I dont get this as part of your argument unless you honestly see pain as a good and neceesaary part of the human condition.

Apparently god does.

I don't think you understood the point of my statement... or most of them. I really don't feel like trying to explain it again.

Humans heal naturally but often need professional help to do so. Such professional help has only been effectively available in the last two centuries for physical pain and in the last century for psychologial pain.

Humans survived thousands upon thousands of years, but, no, our advances in the last two centuries are what is important.

There is no need for pain in a modernTlife true coping allieveates pain and so do placebos Belief and faith do the same They also integrate a person into a more healthy and productive relationship with others and with their their environment bleifs have helped humans cope and reduce pain and suffering since we became self aware

What world do you live in?

I suspect you dont like/appreciate the use of faith and belief to cope.

If it was effective for most people, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Fair enough dont use it for yourself, although i think that makes you a mug like someone who wont use painkillers when needed because they dont believe in them. BUT dont tell others or suggest, that it is cheating, unfair, dangerous, or counter productive. Both history and modern science proves that faith and belief is highly beneficial to human beings.

There is no evidence that the reasons for belief influence its outcomes. If the belief is genuine it will produce positive outcomes.

I disagree with you about why people believe, based on reading material on the construction of human belief. I accept that there are many motivators for belief, but basically belief endures BECAUSE it works. We ALL live our life around a set of inner beliefs. Our moralities, ethics, even love and hate, are belief sets which determine our behaviours.

I can tell people whatever I want. You certainly do.

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Instead of calling it evolution, a better term may be successful mutation. Now if you want to call the force that caused the mutation as God, be my guest. God(s) is/ are created by man to explain aspects he currently can't explain otherwise. Human's need some type of authority figure to expalin our existance. Odin, Thor, Loki, Athena, etc all put a face or a personality to non understood forces. Until we understand all there is to know, God is as good as an explanation as any, but to say Nessie proves Darwin's theory wrong shows a narrow view of things, which is not what religion is about.

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evolution theory ... THEORY THEORY .. its not a fact... how come those christians are so ...... ... ahhh .. uh.. . i dont wanna think about it ..

but i dont believe in the evolution theory ... either :D :D :D aliens created us :D

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No Nessi? they'll be telling us next that men in Scotland wear skirts.

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Posted (edited)

No Nessi? they'll be telling us next that men in Scotland wear skirts.

Well a kilt is a skirt...and some will describe it as a type of skirt.. !!!

I don't think many men in Scotland like that description...that is why they sang the song - Donald where's your trousers lol :P

EDIT to add in video

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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Incidentally, I have been clinically depressed off and on throughout my life. A pill isn't a magic fix and I've never taken depression medication. Instead, I've worked through my feelings by writing about them until I work through them. It's very effective and it has really improved my ability to cope and interact with other people. There are studies that show that exercising regularly may be as effective as anti-depressants. Between journalling and exercise, there are two ways a person can help themselves rather than relying on magic pills.

That's what I'm talking about... doing the work to aleviate one's own suffering rather than taking a dodge.

I have also suffered with depression on-and-off for most of my life. However, unlike yourself, I have found anti-depressants to be absolutely essential to improving my mood and by extension my life. How could a person take time to improve themselves and alleviate their own suffering if they were, for example, constantly being besieged by suicidal ideation or panic attacks? Rather than view medication as a “dodge” or a “magic fix”, one could instead view it as an important step on the road to recovery--a means to normalize or empower oneself so that you are, with a clear head, better able to work out issues in your life that are contributing to unhappiness and ridding yourself of destructive habits.

A belief in a god may serve a similar purpose for believers. Perhaps some people do use the idea of a god as a crutch. But for others, like Mr. Walker, belief can apparently cause transformations in a person--it can lead them to becoming more proactive in improving their lives and the lives of others. I think the possibility of a belief being false is secondary in importance to happiness.

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Well a kilt is a skirt...and some will describe it as a type of skirt.. !!!

I don't think many men in Scotland like that description...that is why they sang the song - Donald where's your trousers lol :P

EDIT to add in video

[media=]

[/media]

Andy Stewart, that's a blast from the past pre Jules Holland new years eve on the BBC.

Other countries have men in skirts i saw them when i visited Thailand, they had better legs. :P

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Yours are better. Thanks.

Glad to help.

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I think it's way beyond 'last ditch'. I see those that try to find God in cosmological arguments as those taking the final stand.

As for the rest, if you look at the 2nd post I made in this thread, I wrote about importance of belief over unassailable scientific truths, and those that refuse to hear anything that contradicts these. This is what I referred to as willful ignorance, whilst you say "It requires a person either to fool/blind them selves about the science". Sounds like we agree on that.

I think you are correct; however i know that belief, however it is founded, is a good thing in itself when it brings productive consequences. And belief per se has been proven to bring productive consequences to individuas, whatever the causation for that belief. Religious belief almost universally does this, (brings measurable physical productive consequences) for the believers without any other practical consequence ie they do not have to act on the belief to gain the benefits.

BUT some beliefs promote destructive individual and social practices which outweigh the positive ones. ANy belief must be judged on the consequences for individuals and for societies. Despite all the wars etc fought in the name of religion it has, on an independent analysis, brought greater benefits to mankind. Just as our scientific knowledge, which has killed millions has also brought general advantages.

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A toothache is a good analogy.

The toothache is the pain.

You suggest people take painkillers as long as it takes till the tooth breaks and falls out on it's own.

I suggest they get that tooth pulled insted of allowing it to fester.

Faith - trust in someone/something without knowing its whole truth

Belief - conviction that something is true, regardless of its ability to be proven

Religion - a group of specific beliefs, practices and rituals

My problem with religion is that people join a religion and accept the beliefs, the mythology, and the system already in place. If a person does define their own, that is different. I encourage it.

Apparently god does.

I don't think you understood the point of my statement... or most of them. I really don't feel like trying to explain it again.

Humans survived thousands upon thousands of years, but, no, our advances in the last two centuries are what is important.

What world do you live in?

If it was effective for most people, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I can tell people whatever I want. You certainly do.

No i suggest they use means to alleiviate unnecesary pain until tha tcan be fixed I would encourage peole to seek professional medicla and psychologicla help but ALSO to have faith Because faith works .

I have faith in my wifes fidelity. I trust in it. There is no difference. FAith and trust are avaialble in the absence of evidence. Both have to be consciously invested in someone or something

Unlike you I cant see any difference/ harm in a person joining another existing group of people with a similar faith. I am not exclusivist in spiritual matters. Any which work are equal.

God works hard to allieviate the pain and sufering which nature and man create in the world.

No I dont understand your POV either, but that is understandable

Faith is effective for almost every human. That is why we evolved the abilty to have it. It is like logic and reason, a helpful and essential part of our sapience.

I live in a very real world based on observation and reading. I use a very capable mind to make sense of myself and my world ANd i do all i can to help every other human being I can to have a life as good and wonderful as my own.

yes you have a right to your pov. I believe it is a very harmful one if i have understood it properly but perhaps I have not.

To deny humans the help of spiritual faith and belief is as wrong as telling them not to use logic and reason or avail themselves of science.

And yes i have been known to be opinionated on occasion.

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Posted (edited)

I have also suffered with depression on-and-off for most of my life. However, unlike yourself, I have found anti-depressants to be absolutely essential to improving my mood and by extension my life. How could a person take time to improve themselves and alleviate their own suffering if they were, for example, constantly being besieged by suicidal ideation or panic attacks? Rather than view medication as a “dodge” or a “magic fix”, one could instead view it as an important step on the road to recovery--a means to normalize or empower oneself so that you are, with a clear head, better able to work out issues in your life that are contributing to unhappiness and ridding yourself of destructive habits.

A belief in a god may serve a similar purpose for believers. Perhaps some people do use the idea of a god as a crutch. But for others, like Mr. Walker, belief can apparently cause transformations in a person--it can lead them to becoming more proactive in improving their lives and the lives of others. I think the possibility of a belief being false is secondary in importance to happiness.

I can add a good anecdote of why it is good to have a real medical opinion. Something very traumatic happened to me and I started to have panic attacks, became afraid to drive, and started to get agoraphobic before my husband forced me to go to a psychiatrist. Anyway, they thought I had PTSD and gave me an anxiety team, xanax and klonopin. Well, I did start feeling better and they encoraged me to go back to work. Then I started to feel a lot better, but got dangerously low blood sugar and they found that I had fructose malabsorption disorder, but couldn't understand why I couldn't absorb sucrose when most people can. They gave me dextran shakes to increase my available glucose and that made things better when I drank 2 a day. Then I lost a lot of weight and my blood pressure was out of control even though I have the best circulating fat levels imaginable and a really healthy heart. Well, it turns out I never had PTSD and although fructose malabsorption disorder is what caused my low blood sugar it would not have happened if I didn't have a Graves-like disease. Once I was diagnosed with that, I was actually given a magic little pill that resolved about 25 problems. I wanted to deny my thyroid was the cause because for years it had been virtually asymptomatic and some doctors would tell me about all these symptoms I never had. I had in the past had some symptomatic periods, but they were of short duration and very mild. No one ever diagnosed it as an autoimmune syndrome because I always tested negative for antibodies. I got a new endocrinologist that was determined that it was an autoimmune syndrome and that she would find the offending antibody/antibodies and she did. So, even for people with great knowledge of biology, you should not attempt to diagnose yourself oh and some pills really are magic.

Edited by FurthurBB

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Posted (edited)

No that was Noah...even with his hangover he insisted on building an ark...

I don't dream of squat after being drunk. In fact in the old days before I knew better I drank to not dream at all.

Edited by Seeker79

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evolution theory ... THEORY THEORY .. its not a fact... how come those christians are so ...... ... ahhh .. uh.. . i dont wanna think about it ..

but i dont believe in the evolution theory ... either :D :D :D aliens created us :D

Evolution is both fact and theory, look it up please.

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Is this legal? Knowingly distributing false information? If it is not illegal, it should be.

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Posted (edited)

I don't dream of squat after being drunk. In fact in the old days before I knew better I drank to not dream at all.

Any time I was drunk...I couldn't tell the difference between my dreams and reality but I did dream like normal and remember some of them..I would wake up thinking what was that?. It depended on how drunk I was..If I drank a lot..I would not remember ....but if I was happy drunk.. then yes I remembered all lol.....I met manys a drunk that thought they seen and heard things and acted on it...Amazing what drink can do

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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Any time I was drunk...I couldn't tell the difference between my dreams and reality but I did dream like normal and remember some of them..I would wake up thinking what was that?. It depended on how drunk I was..If I drank a lot..I would not remember ....but if I was happy drunk.. then yes I remembered all lol.....I met manys a drunk that thought they seen and heard things and acted on it...Amazing what drink can do

I feel the need to put this theory to the test.

Hmm,,I wonder if I could get government funding for it :)

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