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Hazzard

Earliest UFO sightings.

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Posted (edited)

I have tried to make it through an entire episode of the (C2C George Nory) TV show Ancient Aliens without turning channels in disgust at its outlandishness, but Ive always failed. It disappoints me to realize Im not as open-minded as I once thought I was. Ancient Aliens aside, I do wonder if there are authenticated reports of strange aerial phenomena occurring in earlier, including ancient, times in various parts of the world.

Through a Google search, I learned that in his book, Passport to Magonia, Jacques Vallee discusses such sightings. Ive never read the book, but Im curious about it,... Have any of you read it? To those who have, is much of it woo woo?

Here is a link to a two-part interview with Jacques Vallee that I found interesting:

http://www.ufoeviden...ents/doc839.htm

I dont believe ET is zipping around out there observing us, or that some form of multi-dimensional consciousness controls our thoughts. I dont with a whisk of my hand discount the possibility of either idea, but I certainly am skeptical. Is ET spying on us? Are we, as Terence McKenna once said, “part of a symbiotic relationship with something which disguises itself as an extraterrestrial invasion so as not to alarm us”?

To the UFO community I would say this - Present irrefutable evidence that your claims are true. Bring us an alien or some other physical evidence supporting your claims. Oh, and with regard to “UFOs are windows to other dimensions” hypotheses,... please stop pulling wacky-sounding notions out of your buttocks and presenting them as revelations.

Show us the evidence for them.

Edited by Hazzard
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Hey Hazz, interesting topic. One example that I'm sure someone will champion is the UFO's depicted in historical paintings. I don't put much stock in that theory myself however the overall thread topic should be interesting to discuss. Hopefully this thread can mirror some of the more civil debates of some of the Best Evidence threads. I'll be looking forward to everyone's responses. :tu:

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Posted (edited)

I have tried to make it through an entire episode of the (C2C George Nory) TV show Ancient Aliens without turning channels in disgust at its outlandishness, but Ive always failed. It disappoints me to realize Im not as open-minded as I once thought I was. Ancient Aliens aside, I do wonder if there are authenticated reports of strange aerial phenomena occurring in earlier, including ancient, times in various parts of the world.

Through a Google search, I learned that in his book, Passport to Magonia, Jacques Vallee discusses such sightings. Ive never read the book, but Im curious about it,... Have any of you read it? To those who have, is much of it woo woo?

Here is a link to a two-part interview with Jacques Vallee that I found interesting:

http://www.ufoeviden...ents/doc839.htm

I dont believe ET is zipping around out there observing us, or that some form of multi-dimensional consciousness controls our thoughts. I dont with a whisk of my hand discount the possibility of either idea, but I certainly am skeptical. Is ET spying on us? Are we, as Terence McKenna once said, “part of a symbiotic relationship with something which disguises itself as an extraterrestrial invasion so as not to alarm us”?

To the UFO community I would say this - Present irrefutable evidence that your claims are true. Bring us an alien or some other physical evidence supporting your claims. Oh, and with regard to “UFOs are windows to other dimensions” hypotheses,... please stop pulling wacky-sounding notions out of your buttocks and presenting them as revelations.

Show us the evidence for them.

I thought the whole thing was either Venus, esoteric atmospheric phenomena, weather balloons, blimps, or the black military???????

Seriously H it's good to see you present some sort of hypothesis for a change. :tu:

Edited by zoser

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Posted (edited)

I've read Vallee's books, and as I understand his theory he argues that UFOs have been here throughout recorded history, but in the past they were always explained as spiritual, religious or supernatural phenomena--angels, demons, little people, etc, etc. That is not what they "really are" but only how they were explained in the cultural context of societies that were mostly illiterate and had no idea of other planets or civilizations that might be "out there" somewhere.

In the past, only the educated elites might have had some concept like that, and only in the last 200-300 years has it even been possible for most people to comprehend that earth is just one planet among billions and trillions, or that the universe is billions of years old and may have had many different civilizations in its history. I'm sure that it has, but there's no way that most people in the past could possibly have known that.

That's why the whole idea of UFOs was possible spaceships from other worlds, or other times and dimensions, is a modern one. It is basically the way an industrial, technological civilization would explain these things, and also why science must have physical evidence that it can examine in the laboratory before it can have anything to say about this subject.

That's the case for the "hard" sciences at least, but not of course for history, political science and the other social sciences, all of which are comfortable dealing with eyewitness testimony and purely written evidence.

Chemists, biologists and physicists are going to require a piece of a spaceship or an alien before they can make any pronouncements about UFOs, though.

Edited by TheMacGuffin

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Seriously H it's good to see you present some sort of hypothesis for a change. :tu:

Hey,... Im into the ETH as much as you tin-foil guy.

Maybe even more,... the difference between you guys and me is,... I really need this UFO stuff to be real.

I need science to tell me the facts.

People telling tall tales wond do it,... not even close.

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Yeah the closest they have to hard evidence is zilch, although Native Americans and Mayans and other ancient cultures have claimed them to be there gods. Paintings also featured them. But no hard evidence....that the government hasent covered up atleast..........

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I thought the whole thing was either Venus, esoteric atmospheric phenomena, weather balloons, blimps, or the black military???????

Seriously H it's good to see you present some sort of hypothesis for a change. :tu:

I thought the whole thing was either an Alien spacecraft, anti-science propaganda, government coverup, Ancient Aliens, TV documentaries??????

Seriously Z, You should know skeptics better.....

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I thought the whole thing was either an Alien spacecraft, anti-science propaganda, government coverup, Ancient Aliens, TV documentaries??????

Seriously Z, You should know skeptics better.....

He should indeed :P

Cheers,

Badeskov

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I have tried to make it through an entire episode of the (C2C George Nory) TV show Ancient Aliens without turning channels in disgust at its outlandishness, but Ive always failed. It disappoints me to realize Im not as open-minded as I once thought I was. Ancient Aliens aside, I do wonder if there are authenticated reports of strange aerial phenomena occurring in earlier, including ancient, times in various parts of the world.

I will agree with you that the Ancient Aliens show is a complete waste of time. As much as I like to hear stories and accounts of experiences people have had when it comes to this subject, I cannot for one second watch these televised shows about Aliens and ufos. The way that they are presented is completely unintelligible and basically in a child like manner. They seem to be making a mockery of the subject rather than inquiring from a non subjective point of view. They could do a much better job on there presentation.

I dont believe ET is zipping around out there observing us, or that some form of multi-dimensional consciousness controls our thoughts.

I agree that no form of multi-dimensional consciousness controls our thoughts. It is our actions and up bringing as a society that controls our consciousness. We have bought into a lot beliefs and we as a collective need to uncover together the truths from to the lies.

As far as the idea of them observing us, I think this would be the most reasonable explanation and answer to some of the sighting that have been had. Think of it, we ourselves are curious to learn by nature. We travel all over the world discovering new wild life to learn more about our planet its diverse nature. For example There are a few shows where Lion prides are followed over the course of many years. They are observed from a distance, surveyed and on many occasions a few lions have been tranquilized to provide blood and genetic samples for the purpose of understanding these lions and for research as well. But our number one rule is to not interact with the lions. We have agreed to let them develop and evolve on there own for the time being.... Now lets just say, that there is a society that from another world that has the technological means to travel between neighboring stars within there galaxy. Now lets just say during they're travel, this society has come across planet earth let say some 50,000 thousand years ago and began to survey the planet and its indigenous species. During there exploration of this planet they come across a primitive society, yet intelligible in there manners. They are curious about the lifestyle of these species and its society. And the all factions of this extra terrestrial society determine that this species is worthy of a lengthier investigation and examination. And the factions are interested in discovering what will happen to these species in there development and evolution. Now the faction must come to terms on how this will be done. 50% percent of the faction agrees that the species development and evolution should not be tampered with and will not partake in any contact until there is a open window for a conscious cohesive contact between the two. The other 50 percent however agrees that they should tamper and experiment with our development and evolution to a certain degree and for a certain amount of time.

Now out of that 50% percent, only 10% percent agrees to manipulate the genetics of a few species from the collective society. That 10% percent tracks and follows the genetic line that has been tampered with for research purposes only. Out of that 10% percent, only 5% percent chooses to interact with the indigenous society for a short period of time and teaches them a limited amount of skills and ways from they're society. They depart and leave the society to develop on there own to develop and evolve. Still they observe from a distance, recording and documenting the actions and the development of the collective society and its many factions. Over time, lets say its 40,000 years in the future and the indigenous species has evolved into intelligible species and are some what more cohesive then they were in the past. These indigenous species now are becoming technologically advanced globally. Now they're interest is peaked, they begin to have more observations and examinations of this species. But still agree that contact with these species is not yet plausible. A few millions of out the billion indigenous species have become aware of the crafts being used in these observation but is far from there understanding what these sighting are and why they are happening. They share the information with others and it spreads. Now since there is a global communication system, information is shared much more quickly as it would have been in the past and news of these sightings begin to arise from different parts of the globe. Different a perspectives and beliefs are given to what they are. The ets become aware of this and begin to do more closer observation to see the result and the initiative the indigenous will take in order to solve this mystery. But yet still they will not establish contact. Though they do take blood and genetic samples from the indigenous species and have continued to survey and track the Indigenous species that that have been tampered with. They have found a means to take samples with out the host remembering what happened, just like being hit with a tranquilizing dart, the host doesnt know what hit em and what happened during and after that. They continue to do this over the course of the 40,000 years effectively. We have been tracking and following lion prides for many decades and will continue to do so. Our methods of research will evolve, but one rule will remain the same No Contact with these lions. But theyre will always be a few who will dare to go against the accepted rule. We also have made many hybrid lions from experiments with many species of big cats, and have surveyed them and taken samples for research. The only difference is that we cage up our new creations and hybrids instead of releasing them in the wild to be surveyed. This maybe a long explanation but it is quite reasonable if you look past the details and see directly into the archetype I have conveyed here. If you really understand how we interact with the lions, you will definetly see what im talkin about and why observation is the most reasonable answer out there.

To the UFO community I would say this - Present irrefutable evidence that your claims are true. Bring us an alien or some other physical evidence supporting your claims. Oh, and with regard to “UFOs are windows to other dimensions” hypotheses,... please stop pulling wacky-sounding notions out of your buttocks and presenting them as revelations.

Show us the evidence for them.

Many people have submitted there evidence for these sighting. Many officials from the military and government have sighting and its details has been been documented and few open to the public. I myself have submitted evidence of these sighting that I have taken on my own. I have witnesses that have seen these sighting with me and will attest to what was seen. I will not say ufos are windows to other dimensions because I dont know if they are all even extra terrestrial in origin. But I will say these sightings are real and many people have witnessed them. Look what happened in Jerusalem, 3 different videos of that sighting. There is no way you can tell me that it is not a irrefutable evidence UICFO( Undintfied intelligently controlled flying object). Every one has a different perspective of what irrefutable evidence might be, please explain further what that means for you. And even if you were provided with a video of alien and humans interacting, would you not excuse to call the video bogus, cgi, fake. And any video of sightings as well, they are called balloons, lone clouds and other bs. No picture or video can give you that confirmation. Only the pure and raw experience itself. Please say what you mean by irrefutable evidence so we can dive int

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ART and UFOs?

These pages deal with a series of Flying Objects which, as some people say, appear into ancient works of art. As a matter of fact many books, and above all many web sites dealing with paleo-astronautic or clipeology present various works of art as an evidence of UFO sightings in the past.

http://www.sprezzatura.it/Arte/Arte_UFO_eng.htm

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Great site there Hazz ! Art in its own function is a look into our minds eye of possibilities ! With out an Imagination,and desire to step out into the Darkness,we will all just become another lifeless ,life form on this world. ITs really what makes us special !

We are all made of the same Stardust on this planet ! But I have yet to see any reason to not believe that many,many wonderful things await us in the Deep Dark Universe !

So WHy do we stumble around fighting,Killing,and Not Exploring ? ITs just the way we are ! A creature of expression,experiment,trial,and error !

Maaybe in our next few thousand years we will step off our curb? If we dont destroy our Home and fellow Human being`s!

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Posted (edited)

I will agree with you that the Ancient Aliens show is a complete waste of time. As much as I like to hear stories and accounts of experiences people have had when it comes to this subject, I cannot for one second watch these televised shows about Aliens and ufos. The way that they are presented is completely unintelligible and basically in a child like manner. They seem to be making a mockery of the subject rather than inquiring from a non subjective point of view. They could do a much better job on there presentation.

I agree that no form of multi-dimensional consciousness controls our thoughts. It is our actions and up bringing as a society that controls our consciousness. We have bought into a lot beliefs and we as a collective need to uncover together the truths from to the lies.

As far as the idea of them observing us, I think this would be the most reasonable explanation and answer to some of the sighting that have been had. Think of it, we ourselves are curious to learn by nature. We travel all over the world discovering new wild life to learn more about our planet its diverse nature. For example There are a few shows where Lion prides are followed over the course of many years. They are observed from a distance, surveyed and on many occasions a few lions have been tranquilized to provide blood and genetic samples for the purpose of understanding these lions and for research as well. But our number one rule is to not interact with the lions. We have agreed to let them develop and evolve on there own for the time being.... Now lets just say, that there is a society that from another world that has the technological means to travel between neighboring stars within there galaxy. Now lets just say during they're travel, this society has come across planet earth let say some 50,000 thousand years ago and began to survey the planet and its indigenous species. During there exploration of this planet they come across a primitive society, yet intelligible in there manners. They are curious about the lifestyle of these species and its society. And the all factions of this extra terrestrial society determine that this species is worthy of a lengthier investigation and examination. And the factions are interested in discovering what will happen to these species in there development and evolution. Now the faction must come to terms on how this will be done. 50% percent of the faction agrees that the species development and evolution should not be tampered with and will not partake in any contact until there is a open window for a conscious cohesive contact between the two. The other 50 percent however agrees that they should tamper and experiment with our development and evolution to a certain degree and for a certain amount of time.

Now out of that 50% percent, only 10% percent agrees to manipulate the genetics of a few species from the collective society. That 10% percent tracks and follows the genetic line that has been tampered with for research purposes only. Out of that 10% percent, only 5% percent chooses to interact with the indigenous society for a short period of time and teaches them a limited amount of skills and ways from they're society. They depart and leave the society to develop on there own to develop and evolve. Still they observe from a distance, recording and documenting the actions and the development of the collective society and its many factions. Over time, lets say its 40,000 years in the future and the indigenous species has evolved into intelligible species and are some what more cohesive then they were in the past. These indigenous species now are becoming technologically advanced globally. Now they're interest is peaked, they begin to have more observations and examinations of this species. But still agree that contact with these species is not yet plausible. A few millions of out the billion indigenous species have become aware of the crafts being used in these observation but is far from there understanding what these sighting are and why they are happening. They share the information with others and it spreads. Now since there is a global communication system, information is shared much more quickly as it would have been in the past and news of these sightings begin to arise from different parts of the globe. Different a perspectives and beliefs are given to what they are. The ets become aware of this and begin to do more closer observation to see the result and the initiative the indigenous will take in order to solve this mystery. But yet still they will not establish contact. Though they do take blood and genetic samples from the indigenous species and have continued to survey and track the Indigenous species that that have been tampered with. They have found a means to take samples with out the host remembering what happened, just like being hit with a tranquilizing dart, the host doesnt know what hit em and what happened during and after that. They continue to do this over the course of the 40,000 years effectively. We have been tracking and following lion prides for many decades and will continue to do so. Our methods of research will evolve, but one rule will remain the same No Contact with these lions. But theyre will always be a few who will dare to go against the accepted rule. We also have made many hybrid lions from experiments with many species of big cats, and have surveyed them and taken samples for research. The only difference is that we cage up our new creations and hybrids instead of releasing them in the wild to be surveyed. This maybe a long explanation but it is quite reasonable if you look past the details and see directly into the archetype I have conveyed here. If you really understand how we interact with the lions, you will definetly see what im talkin about and why observation is the most reasonable answer out there.

Many people have submitted there evidence for these sighting. Many officials from the military and government have sighting and its details has been been documented and few open to the public. I myself have submitted evidence of these sighting that I have taken on my own. I have witnesses that have seen these sighting with me and will attest to what was seen. I will not say ufos are windows to other dimensions because I dont know if they are all even extra terrestrial in origin. But I will say these sightings are real and many people have witnessed them. Look what happened in Jerusalem, 3 different videos of that sighting. There is no way you can tell me that it is not a irrefutable evidence UICFO( Undintfied intelligently controlled flying object). Every one has a different perspective of what irrefutable evidence might be, please explain further what that means for you. And even if you were provided with a video of alien and humans interacting, would you not excuse to call the video bogus, cgi, fake. And any video of sightings as well, they are called balloons, lone clouds and other bs. No picture or video can give you that confirmation. Only the pure and raw experience itself. Please say what you mean by irrefutable evidence so we can dive int

I'm sorry but i have to say this. To date, despite asking for somebody, anybody & i'm not just talking this forum but generally, worldwide (SETI etc.) to come up with the slightest piece of evidence to prove the existence of alien life or visitation, as of now we still have NOTHING. And yet we still get posts like the one above, spewed from a fertile imagination & produced as some sort of reasonable 'theory' whilst all the time ignoring the actual fact that science has no evidence whatsoever.

I know this is a common trait amongst 'believers' i.e. to wash over the actual facts for fear of diminishing the myth, but this blinkered approach to the evidence or rather lack thereof is akin to a religion.

Edited by itsnotoutthere

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I know this is a common trait amongst 'believers' i.e. to wash over the actual facts for fear of diminishing the myth, but this blinkered approach to the evidence or rather lack thereof is akin to a religion.

Personally, I have no religion, and if I did it definitely wouldn't be UFOs. I not a believer in anything, but I saw one, and then I got some very good information when I was in the military that some UFOs are the real thing. That's all I know.

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When I took Art History (many years ago), we talked about this subject briefly and the instructor explained that - especially in the distant past - art was very stylized and artists had to follow certain conventions of the time or their work was not accepted. For instance, if you look at Byzantine art, the human figure is very flat and stylized - not rounded like you see during the Renaissance. In addition, there was a lot of symbology going on, especially in religious art.

So, while UFOs that are supposedly depicted in historical art are fun to discuss and speculate about, it's a big reach to assume that they actually depict UFOs.

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Personally, I have no religion, and if I did it definitely wouldn't be UFOs. I not a believer in anything, but I saw one, and then I got some very good information when I was in the military that some UFOs are the real thing. That's all I know.

Yes, I too have seen strange things in the sky, but at no point did or do i conclude that they were of alien origin, they were merely unidentifiable.

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When I took Art History (many years ago), we talked about this subject briefly and the instructor explained that - especially in the distant past - art was very stylized and artists had to follow certain conventions of the time or their work was not accepted. For instance, if you look at Byzantine art, the human figure is very flat and stylized - not rounded like you see during the Renaissance. In addition, there was a lot of symbology going on, especially in religious art.

So, while UFOs that are supposedly depicted in historical art are fun to discuss and speculate about, it's a big reach to assume that they actually depict UFOs.

Sounds like you had a good grounded education.

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ART and UFOs?

These pages deal with a series of Flying Objects which, as some people say, appear into ancient works of art. As a matter of fact many books, and above all many web sites dealing with paleo-astronautic or clipeology present various works of art as an evidence of UFO sightings in the past.

http://www.sprezzatu...rte_UFO_eng.htm

Great topic, Hazz...... and thx for that link, it explaines a lot.

And to MCguffy - You "know" that UFOs are the real thing? What does that even meen?

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Yes, I too have seen strange things in the sky, but at no point did or do i conclude that they were of alien origin, they were merely unidentifiable.

To some of the believers this is the same thing. Until a UFO is proven to be natural on man-made, it is made by ET.

Wonderful logic.

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Posted (edited)

Yes, I too have seen strange things in the sky, but at no point did or do i conclude that they were of alien origin, they were merely unidentifiable.

I heard of one that was, or at least it was something from outside of this world, but it was on the ground rather than in the sky. Which is to say, if that scientist who gave all of us military guys the lecture all those years ago was on the level, and I have no reason to think that he wasn't.

He had some cases that were not publicly known at that time, and some that probably still aren't, or are only known in a garbled and incomplete form.

Edited by TheMacGuffin

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I heard of one that was, or at least it was something from outside of this world, but it was on the ground rather than in the sky. Which is to say, if that scientist who gave all of us military guys the lecture all those years ago was on the level, and I have no reason to think that he wasn't.

He had some cases that were not publicly known at that time, and some that probably still aren't, or are only known in a garbled and incomplete form.

Im betting that scientist you are talking about was stating his opinion/belief.... like most people here.

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Posted (edited)

Im betting that scientist you are talking about was stating his opinion/belief.... like most people here.

He had all kinds of classified documents and pictures to back up his statements. This wasn't exactly the type of lecture that was open to the public, and some of the cases he described are not publicly known even today.

Some of them became known many years later, though, since more people seem to be talking openly in the last twenty years or so than was ever the case in the past.

As I recall, he even had some UFO cases and documents going back to the 1920s and 1930s, which is where he started off his lecture. These never get a lot of discussion, nor is it commonly known that UFOs were being investigated even back then, although the term "UFO" did not yet exist at that time.

Edited by TheMacGuffin

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He had all kinds of classified documents and pictures to back up his statements. This wasn't exactly the type of lecture that was open to the public, and some of the cases he described are not publicly known even today.

Some of them became known many years later, though, since more people seem to be talking openly in the last twenty years or so than was ever the case in the past.

As I recall, he even had some UFO cases and documents going back to the 1920s and 1930s, which is where he started off his lecture. These never get a lot of discussion, nor is it commonly known that UFOs were being investigated even back then, although the term "UFO" did not yet exist at that time.

You dont happen to remember his name?

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You dont happen to remember his name?

That I can't say, but even you might be interested in some of the things he discussed. I have already posted them on UM more than once.

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That I can't say, but even you might be interested in some of the things he discussed. I have already posted them on UM more than once.

Thats just the thing, without a way for me to dig around the net after your scientist all I have is you telling a story.

A story that I am all to familiar with.

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Posted (edited)

Thats just the thing, without a way for me to dig around the net after your scientist all I have is you telling a story.

A story that I am all to familiar with.

Well, I only saw the man that one time and never again. I do not know where he is now or whether he is still alive, since all of this took place a long time ago, but I do not have anyone's permission to use their names. If they want to come forward of their own accord, as some have over the years, that's another matter.

PS I can say that it was not some famous celebrity scientist like Hynek or Sagan--no one like that--and in any case we all know they are both deceased. I do not even know where this man was employed, although I assume it was some government agency.

Edited by TheMacGuffin

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