Do Myths have any basis on Reality?

[spud the mackem]

I wonder when I find the similarities between myths from many different culture and race, like, there are similarities in creation myth both in Mayan and Egyptian myths. how it is possible? one from Africa, one from America. totally different region. I wonder how there are so many similarities all over the world's myths.

I reckon similarities throughout the world were caused by people moving about from place to place and telling of what they had seen, but in the telling they added a bit to make it more interesting, but they didnt all speak the same language,and maybe the translation became a little garbled, so for example a terrier became an alsation which became a great dane which became a monster dog then the "dog" was left out so what was a small terrier became a monster and thus a myth,so when the Spanish conquistadors saw the Mayan temples they equated these with the Eygptian pyramids,and so on,does this make sense ?.......cheers

[The Puzzler]

I wonder when I find the similarities between myths from many different culture and race, like, there are similarities in creation myth both in Mayan and Egyptian myths. how it is possible? one from Africa, one from America. totally different region. I wonder how there are so many similarities all over the world's myths.

My own opinion is that creation myths are very ancient. When a group of people left Siberia and crossed into America for the first time, the same mythology stayed with the shamanic Siberians, over time these people spread out and ancient priests were very powerful so one idea became the multitudes ideas, it only takes movements of small groups of powerful people to create dominating ideas throughout different cultures. Possibly the Sami people are even part of this dispersion, ancient movements by ancient peoples with ancient knowledge that spread through powerful shamanic priests imo.

[lightly]

I like that idea puzz. People carry ideas with them, the earliest travelers didn't travel around empty headed.

I think we would be surprised to learn how very old, and shared, some concepts and "myths" and practices are. Many similar ideas were developed independently , many were shared. Both means are attributable to human nature ?

Which is which is hard to tell from our current perspective.

I too am impressed by world wide similarities in creation stories debmedia. The striking similarities of so many of them seem to me to support a larger and more enduring sharing of ideas than we can explain . Good topic!

[PersonFromPorlock]

For a specific example, how about the unicorn? Probably started out as the ancient Greeks describing the Indian rhinoceros as "a hippopotamus (Greek for 'water horse') with a horn" and eventually the 'water' part got dropped.

Also, don't overlook the possibility of a word in one language resembling the word for something else in another language, with the two things eventually getting conflated into a description of something that never was.

Edited July 3, 2012 by PersonFromPorlock

[The Puzzler]

For a specific example, how about the unicorn? Probably started out as the ancient Greeks describing the Indian rhinoceros as "a hippopotamus (Greek for 'water horse') with a horn" and eventually the 'water' part got dropped.

Also, don't overlook the possibility of a word in one language resembling the word for something else in another language, with the two things eventually getting conflated into a description of something that never was.

I got curious and found this...

Classic Unicorn has little to do with celtic tradition.Gajus Julius Ceasar in his Bellum Gallicum feeds the fiction of a real horse category which has the "differentia specifica" of one "corn". Caesar writes that this "kind" of horse in the French forests can sleep upwards because this horse uses that "corn" as a leverage and sleeping tree bar. (Source:My Kitchen Latin reading of "De Bellum Gallicum", Caesar, G.J. )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AUnicorn#Hebrew_.22unicorn.22_in_Job

Unicorns are not found in Greek mythology, but rather in accounts of natural history, for Greek writers of natural history were convinced of the reality of the unicorn, which they located in India, a distant and fabulous realm for them. The earliest description is from Ctesias who described them as wild asses, fleet of foot, having a horn a cubit and a half in length and colored white, red and black.^[1] Aristotle must be following Ctesias when he mentions two one-horned animals, the oryx (a kind of antelope) and the so-called "Indian ass".^[2][3] Strabo says that in the Caucasus there were one-horned horses with stag-like heads.^[4] Pliny the Elder mentions the oryx and an Indian ox (perhaps a rhinoceros) as one-horned beasts, as well as "a very fierce animal called the monoceros which has the head of the stag, the feet of the elephant, and the tail of the boar, while the rest of the body is like that of the horse; it makes a deep lowing noise, and has a single black horn, which projects from the middle of its forehead, two cubits in length."^[5] In On the Nature of Animals (Περὶ Ζῴων Ἰδιότητος, De natura animalium), Aelian, quoting Ctesias, adds that India produces also a one-horned horse (iii. 41; iv. 52),^[6][7] and says (xvi. 20)^[8] that the monoceros (Greek: μονόκερως) was sometimes called cartazonos (Greek: καρτάζωνος), which may be a form of the Arabic karkadann, meaning "rhinoceros".

Cosmas Indicopleustes, a merchant of Alexandria, who lived in the 6th century, and made a voyage to India, and subsequently wrote works on cosmography, gives a figure of the unicorn, not, as he says, from actual sight of it, but reproduced from four figures of it in brass contained in the palace of the King of Ethiopia. He states, from report, that "it is impossible to take this ferocious beast alive; and that all its strength lies in its horn. When it finds itself pursued and in danger of capture, it throws itself from a precipice, and turns so aptly in falling, that it receives all the shock upon the horn, and so escapes safe and sound."^[9][10]

A one-horned animal (which may be just a bull in profile) is found on some seals from the Indus Valley Civilization.^[11] Seals with such a design are thought to be a mark of high social rank

^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicorn}

[Quarky]

I think some may be mixing fairy tales and/or legends vs. mythology.

Folktales and legends are related-but are really not the same as myths.

I think that the more famous greek, roman & norse mythologies are probably based on real people or 'super people' and real events.......

.......can't prove it........just think it's possible.

[debmedia]

now if we think like erich von daniken stated? like, some aliens came from other planet and tell us their story and show their power? and if we think that the people move around from one country to another and tell those stories, then it is not so true as the transport system was not so fast or advance i think. so, if we think that those aliens came to all those country which are more advance, they tell those stories to them by themselves. and that is why we can see the advance civilizations only have the similarities in myths like greek, egypt or roman. other less advance have less similarities. as they don't get those stories directly from those aliens.

[debmedia]

anybody can help me by providing a list of websites or books in which I can find some great ancient stories or mythology on black magic or very interesting topics translated in English? I just want to read this kind of interesting ancient stories written in papyrus, scrolls etc and then translated to simple English. if anybody can provide any name of books on that topic it will be very helpful for me to know those dark or forgotten ancient stories. I love to read them.

[Abramelin]

anybody can help me by providing a list of websites or books in which I can find some great ancient stories or mythology on black magic or very interesting topics translated in English? I just want to read this kind of interesting ancient stories written in papyrus, scrolls etc and then translated to simple English. if anybody can provide any name of books on that topic it will be very helpful for me to know those dark or forgotten ancient stories. I love to read them.

Not a list, just one book:

The Leyden Papyrus: An Egyptian Magical Book (1904)

http://www.amazon.com/The-Leyden-Papyrus-Egyptian-Magical/dp/0486229947

Part of it is online:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3PP54xgHqhoC&pg=PR3&hl=nl&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

You can download it here:

Dover Publications | 1974 | ISBN: 0486229947 | 40 pages | PDF | 1,1 MB

The translation of crucial 3rd-century A.D. manuscript of Egyptian magic, medicine. 15-foot roll of papyrus reveals spells, incantations, aphrodisiacs, invoking various gods. Probably compilation of practicing Egyptian sorcerer. Transliteration of demotic included.

http://www.ebooksdownloadfree.com/Psychiatry-Psychology/The-Leyden-Papyrus-An-Egyptian-Magical-Book-BI14193.html

I once bought the book in a second-hand bookshop.

Don't ask me why, lol.

====

A bit extra info (although I doubt you will use it) :

The Demotic Magical Papyrus of London and Leiden (1904)

http://archive.org/details/demoticmagicalpa03grifuoft

[Abramelin]

And of course the book that 'I' wrote when I was a lot younger, lol:

The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage

http://www.sacred-te...m/abr/index.htm

You can read about the book and its history here:

http://en.wikipedia....ok_of_Abramelin

.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Abramelin

[Arbitran]

now if we think like erich von daniken stated? like, some aliens came from other planet and tell us their story and show their power? and if we think that the people move around from one country to another and tell those stories, then it is not so true as the transport system was not so fast or advance i think. so, if we think that those aliens came to all those country which are more advance, they tell those stories to them by themselves. and that is why we can see the advance civilizations only have the similarities in myths like greek, egypt or roman. other less advance have less similarities. as they don't get those stories directly from those aliens.

I am not a devotee of Von Daniken, but personally, I do think that some myths might have originated as records of contact with extraterrestrial beings. Even the late Carl Sagan has previously expressed that this is a tantalizing possibility. At the very least, I am highly intrigued that the accounts given in the Vedas and the Sanskrit literatures of ancient India speak of celestial beings, and specify stars and planets in the cosmos from whence these beings hailed. They could be fictional, of course, but at the very, very least the authors of these accounts would require a degree of knowledge and sophistication advanced enough to comprehend and write about such things. I am of the opinion that they are truthful, for the most part at least. Nobody else need subscribe to this particular view, but the accounts will stand or fall on their own merits, and I for one have been convinced sufficiently of their veracity.

[debmedia]

Abramelin thanks a lot. if any story there on those magic then also tell me.[/size][/b]

Edited July 4, 2012 by debmedia

[The Puzzler]

And of course the book that 'I' wrote when I was a lot younger, lol:

The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage

http://www.sacred-te...m/abr/index.htm

You can read about the book and its history here:

http://en.wikipedia....ok_of_Abramelin

.

Interesting.

[The Puzzler]

now if we think like erich von daniken stated? like, some aliens came from other planet and tell us their story and show their power? and if we think that the people move around from one country to another and tell those stories, then it is not so true as the transport system was not so fast or advance i think. so, if we think that those aliens came to all those country which are more advance, they tell those stories to them by themselves. and that is why we can see the advance civilizations only have the similarities in myths like greek, egypt or roman. other less advance have less similarities. as they don't get those stories directly from those aliens.

It can take thousands of years for the myths to travel around, people walked and long distances are easily walked in a matter of months and years. I really don't think aliens need be the bringers of 'those stories' imo.

Diodorus Siculus^[2] claims that Belus founded a colony on the river Euphrates, and appointed the priests-astrologers whom the Babylonians call Chaldeans who like the priests of Egypt are exempt from taxation and other service to the state.

http://en.wikipedia....Belus_(Egyptian)

There's an interesting theory out there by Stan Gooch, I have a topic on it that might interest you, about how Neanderthals may have first began magic and the stories concerning astrology etc, it was adapted by modern man but never really understood.

Gooch argued that Neanderthals were the original creators, the innovators, of high culture, of symbolic values and religious sensibilities, which early modern humans (Cro-Magnons) copied and adopted without genuine understanding. Neanderthal culture was not a civilisation of high technologies, but one of the mind and spirit that survives today in our beliefs, myths, folklore, and religious practices.

http://www.unexplain...topic=205348= stan gooch&st=0

Edited July 4, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I also just found this recent article:

When archaeologists tried out a new technique to determine the age of Spain's most famous Paleolithic cave paintings, they were surprised to discover that the paintings were thousands of years older than previously thought — so old that it's conceivable they were painted by Neanderthals.

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/14/12211397-new-dating-method-shows-cave-art-is-older-did-neanderthals-do-it?lite

[Harte]

I am not a devotee of Von Daniken, but personally, I do think that some myths might have originated as records of contact with extraterrestrial beings. Even the late Carl Sagan has previously expressed that this is a tantalizing possibility.

It IS a tantalizing possibility.

However, Sagan said this particularly about Oannes, and only because he was ignorant on that particular subject. Likely due to his reliance on the story told by Berossus, who actually had no idea what he was talking about.

Oannes, according to Berossus, was half fish. His story was based on something he had never read in its original form. However, we do today have the original story of "Oannes."

He was Adapa, originally a mortal fisherman that was later elevated to a holy status (as an Apkallu) after he died.

Not even close to extraterrestrial.

Sagan, like Linus Pauling, should have stuck to science. At least in Sagan's case, his error isn't as embarrasing as Pauling's.

Harte

Edited to add: Thank you Marduk!

Edited July 6, 2012 by Harte

[Arbitran]

It IS a tantalizing possibility.

However, Sagan said this particularly about Oannes, and only because he was ignorant on that particular subject. Likely due to his reliance on the story told by Berossus, who actually had no idea what he was talking about.

Oannes, according to Berossus, was half fish. His story was based on something he had never read in its original form. However, we do today have the original story of "Oannes."

He was Adapa, originally a mortal fisherman that was later elevated to a holy status (as an Apkallu) after he died.

Not even close to extraterrestrial.

Sagan, like Linus Pauling, should have stuck to science. At least in Sagan's case, his error isn't as embarrasing as Pauling's.

Harte

Edited to add: Thank you Marduk!

Well-noted.

[lightly]

I also just found this recent article:

When archaeologists tried out a new technique to determine the age of Spain's most famous Paleolithic cave paintings, they were surprised to discover that the paintings were thousands of years older than previously thought — so old that it's conceivable they were painted by Neanderthals.

http://cosmiclog.msn...hals-do-it?lite

Cool puzz. .. This might be a silly thought.. BUT, Neanderthal territory (which keeps expanding by discovery) seems to be a pretty close match to Dolmen territory? I know, Neanderthal are supposed to have died out Before the estimated age of most dolmen.. but .. it just makes me wonder. Maybe "we' just kept up the tradition.

[The_Spartan]

Most of the ancient myths/stories/recordings of events were oral.

Humans on their migrations assimilate other cultures or assimilate into other cultures. One party's Oral history mixes with another party's oral history.

Myths began as human efforts for explaining events/occurances, natural and phyiscal.

The Sun is not a God/Divine Being, but a naturally occuring star.

For ancient Humans the sun was something they couldnt comprehend. It rose in the east and sets in the west. Ancient people had no ida about the solar centric system or the rotation of the planets or revolutions of the planets. So they concote a story about the Sun as a divine being who lives above us who travels from east to west and sleeps at night. similarly for the night, they made up the story about moon being another dvine being, and made other stories about the phases of the moon, waxing and waning of the moon etc.

As oral histories mingle, they are embellished. the Sun rode in chariots, pulled by divine horses and the lot.

this is just an exmaple of how a myth comes into existence and how a myth grows.

Myths about specific persons may have basis on actual events and persons, but are embellished. for example about Daedelus and Icarus. The reality could have been, they were nuts or eccentric inventors or plain inventors who thought they could fly like the birds. the son would have leaped off a tall mountain and for a moment to those below he was flying, but in fact falling to his death. and after his death, a myth grows about a a man who tired to fly. This myth wouldnt have been at all a greek myth, but a myth that the greeks picked up in their migrations/assimilations of other cultures.

Edited July 7, 2012 by The_Spartan

[whitegandalf]

can anybody give any example comparing a myth with reality? like, one i can tell you, if you read norse mythology, you can get that they belived in multi planet. as they thought there are 9 world. i wonder, how they even think about multi planets when no telescope must found. if there is no advance science, how all myths tells us the process of creation so similar to one we know scientifically?

Actually the vikings had developed the technology for telescopes, and some, what are belived to be telescope leanses, have been found. The vikings had many unuiqe technologies and inventions long before the rest of the world. And much more are yet to be discovered.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/702478.stm

[AlnilamPhiSiriusly]

now if we think like erich von daniken stated? like, some aliens came from other planet and tell us their story and show their power? and if we think that the people move around from one country to another and tell those stories, then it is not so true as the transport system was not so fast or advance i think. so, if we think that those aliens came to all those country which are more advance, they tell those stories to them by themselves. and that is why we can see the advance civilizations only have the similarities in myths like greek, egypt or roman. other less advance have less similarities. as they don't get those stories directly from those aliens.

Wayne Herschel explains why Dan Brown's 'Lost Symbol' is a lost symbol PART 1 of THE LOST SYMBOL OF RA

PART 2 of THE LOST SYMBOL OF RA

[jaylemurph]

The only thing Dan Brown's work is a symbol for is lazy research and bad prose.

--Jaylemurph

[AlnilamPhiSiriusly]

The only thing Dan Brown's work is a symbol for is lazy research and bad prose.

--Jaylemurph

Exactly!

That's why Wayne Herschel made those two videos showing that an ancient 'myth' has been decoded .... i.e. 'The Key of Solomon'

[Harsh86_Patel]

Myths that have carried on for 1000's of years may not be fairy tales. It is entirely possible that most of them are either partly or completely true and represent actual events, sometimes presented with a poetic flavour.

[jaylemurph]

Myths that have carried on for 1000's of years may not be fairy tales. It is entirely possible that most of them are either partly or completely true and represent actual events, sometimes presented with a poetic flavour.

Unfortunately, we have no reliable way to tell the completely-made-up bits from the could-possibly-maybe-be-based-on-something-someone-remembered-wrong-but-was-sort-of-true bits. You keep claiming to be able to do this; why don't you tell us your secret, if it's anything short of "assuming everything is true", which is patently ridiculous?

--Jaylemurph