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TheMacGuffin

New JFK Assassination Lecture

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Never heard of this guy before. September 20 - around a month before the assassination. The article doesn't mention this: was he kept in custody through November or if not, was he released before JFK was killed? Also, is there any 3rd party independent evidence that Nagell actually knew Oswald?

I think you're right on the money about the photos of Oswald. They are fake and they prove there was a conspiracy to at least include Oswald in JFK's murder.

According to this website, Nagell was sentenced to ten years in prison for firing the shots in the bank and served five years. He also went to see Jim Garrison in New Orleans. There has been quite a lot of discussion about him on various websites about how much he really knew in advance, although it seems he wrote to the FBI and Secret Service before the assassination, and to the Warren Commission afterwards. His military career was real, and in fact his whole career has many similarities to Oswald's, in that he seemed to be an ideal patsy for someone who would want a "lone nut" assassin, preferably with Communist sympathies, which of course were completely bogus.

He was even in Mexico, just like Oswald, making contacts with Soviet and Cuban intelligence, who actually warned him that a group of anti-Castro Cubans was involved in a plot to kill JFK. They were actually anxious to avoid this because of the fear that the blame would somehow be shifted to them, which is exactly what the conspirators in Dallas first attempted to do.

http://www.google.co...C_eVeCdtWdSjzwA

Edited by TheMacGuffin

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So I guess we need to know when he was sentenced.

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So I guess we need to know when he was sentenced.

He was in prison from 1963 to 1968.

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He was in prison from 1963 to 1968.

Yeah, but when in 63?

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Yeah, but when in 63?

He was arrested on September 20, 1963, almost two months before the assassination, but the FBI never acted on his warning that people were trying to recruit him into the plot to assassinate JFK. His point was that he was being set up as a patsy or fall guy of the same type that Oswald later became. Their records were very similar, of course, including the pretense that they had been defectors or double agents. In reality, they worked for American intelligence and were also informants for the FBI.

One way or another, I think they both stumbled on this plot to assassinate JFK, or may even have been sent to infiltrate it.

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I have been trying to post Cyril Wecht's evidence to the 1978 Committee but that's like getting blood out of a stone.

Oswald 's shot from the Book Depository could not have done the damage to both men in the limo.

Tonight I watched a docu about what 'happened' to the 1st bullet Oswald fired.

Supposedly this one hit the traffic light in front of the Depository and ricocheted off and hit James Tague while he was standing almost under the overpass.

You know, there must be something in the air around Dealey Plaza that affects bullets...

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I have been trying to post Cyril Wecht's evidence to the 1978 Committee but that's like getting blood out of a stone.

Oswald 's shot from the Book Depository could not have done the damage to both men in the limo.

Tonight I watched a docu about what 'happened' to the 1st bullet Oswald fired.

Supposedly this one hit the traffic light in front of the Depository and ricocheted off and hit James Tague while he was standing almost under the overpass.

You know, there must be something in the air around Dealey Plaza that affects bullets...

I have even heard that one bullet went through the sign just as the limo was going by, although some of the frames showing that were "edited" out of the Zapruder film, and the sign with the bullet hole in it was later replaced.

The Warren Commission could only have one gunman firing three shots from behind, and one of those missed, so it had to account for everything else with just two bullets. We've seen how well that worked out for them. LOL

I really don't know how many shots were fired at the same time, but it was more than three and from more than one direction--had to be.

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I have even heard that one bullet went through the sign just as the limo was going by, although some of the frames showing that were "edited" out of the Zapruder film, and the sign with the bullet hole in it was later replaced.

The Warren Commission could only have one gunman firing three shots from behind, and one of those missed, so it had to account for everything else with just two bullets. We've seen how well that worked out for them. LOL

I really don't know how many shots were fired at the same time, but it was more than three and from more than one direction--had to be.

Yep. Agreed.

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If Oswald's sitting up there in his perch on the 6th floor of the School Book Depository, then why didn't he fire at JFK when he was coming down Houston St? Direct line of fire.

Why did he wait until the limo had turned onto Elm St and he had to fire through a tree?

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It seems to me highly improbable that Oswald fired any shots at all.

Br Cornelius

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It seems to me highly improbable that Oswald fired any shots at all.

Br Cornelius

Are you trying to suggest that there was a conspiracy? :tu:

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Since 1976, we have also known that the rifle found on the 6th Floor of the School Book Depository was a Mauser, not the weapon that Oswald allegedly ordered through the mail.

Roger Craig also found a .45 caliber bullet that hit the sidewalk in front of where JFK's limo was passing, but naturally no more was ever heard of that one.

[media=]

[/media] Edited by TheMacGuffin

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I have to agree , its unlikely that Oswald even fired a shot , even if he did I doubt he would have came close to hitting JFK from the position he was situated .

As Antilles indicated , he had a much better shot straight down Houston ST .....

TiP.

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Then there was the windshield of JFK's limo, which had a bullet hole through it. This would have been evidence in any real investigation, but it was destroyed.

In addition, all the testimony that described a large exit wound in the back of JFK's head was suppressed for many years.

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In this video, there are pictures that show a bullet went through the windshield of JFK's limo and perhaps another that hit the dashboard. None of this evidence was ever examined.

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In the old video files you see the driver turn around and pull something out of his jacket that resembles a firearm of some sort then as JFK's head snaps back he quickly puts it back in his pocket.

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In the old video files you see the driver turn around and pull something out of his jacket that resembles a firearm of some sort then as JFK's head snaps back he quickly puts it back in his pocket.

William Cooper came up with this theory because of his mistakes when viewing the Zapruder film.

Greer did not shoot JFK. Roy Kellerman was sitting beside him in the front seat. When JFK received the fatal head shot, Greer turned around. There is reflection off Kellerman's head which is what Cooper posits as Greer shooting JFK.

Greer did not shoot JFK.

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Was this is picture of Lee Harvey Oswald standing in the doorway of the School Book Depository at the exact time of the assassination? There has been an argument over whether this was Oswald or another man named Billy Lovelady.

Altgens3-640x409.jpg

Addams%2BFamily%2Blarge.jpg

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Was this is picture of Lee Harvey Oswald standing in the doorway of the School Book Depository at the exact time of the assassination? There has been an argument over whether this was Oswald or another man named Billy Lovelady.

Altgens3-640x409.jpg

Addams%2BFamily%2Blarge.jpg

You know, Mac, I think he might even be carrying the same gun that he was in the Life photo....

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You know, Mac, I think he might even be carrying the same gun that he was in the Life photo....

People have claimed that attempts were made to retouch and "edit" these pictures so that the man looked less like Oswald, and of course these aren't the only ones that were altered.

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If you watch the old video files and watch JFK's head. His head snaps backwards not forwards. Supposely the shooter shot him in the back of the head which would cause a forward snap in the head. Instead the head snapping backwards. The gun that Oswald supposely used was not a acrate weapon.

Jack Rudy was paid over to kill Oswald to keep him from talking. Rudy was involded heavily in the mod.

Talk to anyone who's been in combat. Bodies react differently to bullets. You cannot apply "this will happen with certainty" when it comes to the effect of bullets upon people. Heck, talk to a longtime deer and/or elk hunter. He'll tell you how differently animals reacted to the same bullet fired from the same rifle.

The 6.5X52mm Italian Carcarno can be an accurate rifle, if fed the proper ammunition. The trouble is, too many people have believed this pap without examining the facts.

In Handloader magazine No. 169 (May-June 1994), gun writer Charles A. Benke puts this "inaccurate Carcano" myth to rest.

He purchased a "new, World War II-era Carcano rifle at a gun show. All evidence is that it had never been fired after leaving the factory in 1941.

Measuring the bore, he found it had a .2685 inch groove diameter -- that's to the bottom of the grooves in the rifling.

For over a century, most 6.5mm rifles have had groove diameters of .264 to .265 inch, and bullets were made the same diameter.

The Italians, aware of their rifle's slightly larger bore, made their military ammunition with commensurately larger diameter bullets.

When Benke used bullets of .264 to .265 diameter, as made by Sierra, Hornady, Speer and Nosler, he got lousy accuracy at 140 yards.

This article has an accompanying photo that is very telling.

Newly made Norma 6.5X52 Carcano ammo, made in Sweden, put five 139 gr. bullets into an 11-inch circle at 140 yards. A dismally inaccurate factory load. I've seen documentaries about the Kennedy assassination, where the shooter loaded up Norma ammo at the rifle range and proclaimed the Carcarno terribly inaccurate.

The 156 gr. Norma load was more accurate, putting five shots into a 6" circle at 140 yards.

I'm uncertain of the diameter of Norma bullets; apparently he didn't pull one from the case and measure it.

Benke obtained some 157 gr. softpoint bullets of .268 inch diameter from MoLoc Bullets of Turlock, Calif. These fit his rifle's larger bore better and he obtained excellent accuracy with his Carcano.

At 140 yards, using a 2-power scope, Benke was able to put five bullets into 1 or 2 inch circles. This was with his own reloads, assembled with modern powders and primers.

Oswald used cartridges manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co. of the USA. They were loaded with a full metal jacket military-type bullet weighing 160 to 161 grains. He fired three shos in a maximum of 7.9 seconds.

An FBI marksman later used Oswald's carbine and Western Cartridge Co. ammunition, firing four groups of three shots each at 100 yards. President Kennedy was shot at less than 100 yards. I've been to the Schoolbook Depository in Dallas and looked down on the view to where the limousine passed. I'd estimate it at 70 to 80 yards.

Anyway, that FBI marksman was able to put three Western Cartridge bullets into groups of 3 to 5 inches -- at 100 yards. At 80 yards, the groups would be even smaller.

I don't know if the marksman used cartridges from the same box that Oswald used, or merely had a box of similar Western Cartridges supplied to him. There can be variations in powder loads and bullet diameter between different manufacturing lots of ammunition, so to say that Oswald's rifle could only shoot within 3 to 5 inches is an incorrect assumption. The Western Cartridge Co. ammo Oswald had on that fateful day may have been very, very accurate in his rifle.

Nearly 20 years ago, gun writer Charles Benke put to rest the assertion that the Carcano is an inaccurate rifle. Fed the proper-sized bullets, it can be exceedingly accurate:

The trouble is, nearly all 6.5mm bullets are standardized at .264 inch diameter. For a bullet to be accurate, it must completely fill the bore as it travels down the barrel.

A .264" bullet in a .2685" bore is not conducive to accuracy.

I've been reloading ammunition for more than 40 years, for rifle, pistol and shotgun. I currently reload for about 25 different rifle and pistol calibers (not the 6.5X52 Carcano, though), and cast my own bullets of molten lead on occasion. I know what I'm talking about, because I've seen the poor accuracy brought by undersized bullets in bores, in both rifle and pistol.

Is the Carcano inaccurate? Not a bit, if fed the right ammo, according to the writer. And I believe him.

But don't believe me, find a copy of Handloader magazine no. 169 on the net. The article is not technical, and will be an eye-opener for Kennedy Assassination followers.

A standard Carcano that put five bullets into 1 and 2-inch circles at 140 yards "inaccurate?" Hardly.

Edited by Gatofeo

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One bullet did strike JFK in the back but did not go all the way through his body. This may have been the bullet that the FBI later "found" in a relatively intact condition. Originally even the autopsy doctors believed this was the case and claimed not to be aware of the throat wound until after they had written their official report. Of course, all the Dallas doctors reported that this was an entrance wound.

In any case, the autopsy doctors had not even accounted for it at all. This left the Warren Commission with the familiar problem of too many bullets and shots being fired, especially since John Connally always said that he was not hit by any of the bullets that struct JFK.

Hence they came up with a "revised" autopsy report and a Magic Bullet.

*snip*

Edited by Saru
Video removed for copyright reasons

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Talk to anyone who's been in combat. Bodies react differently to bullets. You cannot apply "this will happen with certainty" when it comes to the effect of bullets upon people. Heck, talk to a longtime deer and/or elk hunter. He'll tell you how differently animals reacted to the same bullet fired from the same rifle.

Oswald used cartridges manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co. of the USA. They were loaded with a full metal jacket military-type bullet weighing 160 to 161 grains. He fired three shos in a maximum of 7.9 seconds.

An FBI marksman later used Oswald's carbine and Western Cartridge Co. ammunition, firing four groups of three shots each at 100 yards. President Kennedy was shot at less than 100 yards. I've been to the Schoolbook Depository in Dallas and looked down on the view to where the limousine passed. I'd estimate it at 70 to 80 yards.

Anyway, that FBI marksman was able to put three Western Cartridge bullets into groups of 3 to 5 inches -- at 100 yards. At 80 yards, the groups would be even smaller.

It hardly matters since it probably was not even one of the rifles used in the assassination, and Oswald was not up there on the 6th floor firing it.

Edited by TheMacGuffin

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