Tiggs Posted August 17, 2012 #301 Share Posted August 17, 2012 It is a meritocracy. Who said that was fair? Some people are born with abilities and/or drive that makes the suceed. Others are born with great physical abilities and make a lot of money playing a game. Some are born extremely intelligent, some are born with lesser intellicual ability. Is that fair? No, that is life. All you can do is deal with it and do the best of your ability. Being extraordinarily successful does (generally) take hard work. My position, however, is that just because someone is currently poor, doesn't mean that they should be written off as a failure because being poor isn't necessarily a function of Meritocracy. Sometimes, it's just an inevitable consequence of a bad economy. Anyone that's been laid off in a deep recession, such as the one that we're in now, should be able to confirm that. I said that I live within my means so why can't the government. You said I should see how hard it would be to live on $1.25 a day. The logical assumption is that the government makes $1.25 a day. It's an analogy to show you that if you've made expenditure plans based on the expectation of having certain income levels and then those income levels dramatically drop - then you have no choice but to overspend when the bills become due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiggs Posted August 17, 2012 #302 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Well noone ever said life is fair or easy. What else is there? I can't be held responsible for every down and out citizen in the country. I have my own life to live and people close to me to take care of. I believe our government should help people to certain extents but they are not there to sustain a living for anyone with my money. Like I said, if all of our tax dollars were honestly accounted for going towards constitutionally legal general welfare programs and elsewhere and that still wasn't honestly enough to help the needy, then I'd lend some credence to a rise in taxes. As it now stands, our money is wasted with incredible carelessness and you want to argue that government assitance is the answer. Until spending is reigned in, there is no way in hell I can justify handing over any more taxes to them to "help the poor". They can't do it right as it is. Entitlements don't work. A little help may, but not entitlements. Where in the constitution does it say that any one citizen or "special" group is entitled to another citizens earnings? Helping lifts spirits. Handouts breed laziness. So basically - your plan for them when they run out of unemployment benefit is for them to live or die at the mercy of charity? No. You speak for them. Noone deserves to die. All lives in this country are seen as eqaul. That doesn't mean all lives are great. The republican conservative position is to stop wasting money on things that don't work. Welfare is a noble idea, but it hasn't been shown to improve anyones life. At most, it sustains a life. Our government isn't here to sustain any individual life. It is here to ensure an environment where a life can sustain itself. Giving the choice of sustaining a life or letting that life die - I'd choose sustain, every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gummug Posted August 17, 2012 #303 Share Posted August 17, 2012 serfs were surprisingly free people actually. They had to work about a tenth to perhaps a fifth of the year for the Lord who owned the land, and if war came fight as pikemen (or archers if you were skilled enough) and that was about it. The rest of the time was yours, there was a tithe of food for the Lord and the rest your grew was yours to do with as you pleased. In return the Lord managed the estate, protected the land, acted as judge for matters criminal and so on. If this is true (and I'm not wanting to insult you or anything) then they may have been fairly well off, if they had enough food and disposable income. I also heard the reason a lot of Irish emigrated during the potato famine was because the English took so much of their food...that if they (the English) hadn't, they wouldn't have had such a problem with starvation. I'm not sure though if the Irish were exactly in a serfdom under the English, my history knowledge is not so good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tapirmusic Posted August 17, 2012 #304 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Giving the choice of sustaining a life or letting that life die - I'd choose sustain, every time. Interesting. How did you feel about the Terri Schiavo case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acidhead Posted August 18, 2012 #305 Share Posted August 18, 2012 The past 40 years has been replacing what worked with what sounded good. Sometimes you need to take two steps backward before you can move forward. The older you get the more you realize that no matter how much changes everything stays the same. Nobody needs nothing but their liberty to survive. Thanks for listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F3SS Posted August 18, 2012 Author #306 Share Posted August 18, 2012 So basically - your plan for them when they run out of unemployment benefit is for them to live or die at the mercy of charity? Twister, The answer is no. I would hope that when one has exhausted all possible avenues of charity that they buck up, grow up and hit the pavement. Swing a hammer. Flip a burger. Bag some groceries. Anybody, and I mean anybody of all mental capacities can become a grocery bagger. With the exception of severe mental retardation. Those folks usually have family or nursing homes to go to. No, I don't expect them to be able to fend and I don't mind helping the truly incapable. The past 40 years has been replacing what worked with what sounded good. I've heard that before. Excellent words and all that is wrong with liberalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiggs Posted August 18, 2012 #307 Share Posted August 18, 2012 The answer is no. I would hope that when one has exhausted all possible avenues of charity that they buck up, grow up and hit the pavement. Swing a hammer. Flip a burger. Bag some groceries. Anybody, and I mean anybody of all mental capacities can become a grocery bagger. What both I, and the unemployment figures are telling you is that there are physically more people than there are jobs. The economy is stalled. No-one's hiring. Twister The truth is that the Right wing are divided into two camps. Those that realize that the consequences of removing government assistance to the poor will result in deaths and are okay with that and those that get very fuzzy about the details of what happens when the money runs out. You and Bama13 are both on different sides of that divide. Since you appear to be paranoid that I'm just an evil liberal twisting your words, then perhaps you two should talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiggs Posted August 18, 2012 #308 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Interesting. How did you feel about the Terri Schiavo case? In all honesty - I'm undecided. I think it'd make an interesting thread to discuss. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjadude Posted August 18, 2012 #309 Share Posted August 18, 2012 I would hope that when one has exhausted all possible avenues of charity that they buck up, grow up and hit the pavement. Swing a hammer. Flip a burger. Bag some groceries. Anybody, and I mean anybody of all mental capacities can become a grocery bagger. My wife says that too. But those jobs no longer exist. There were days past when you could get hired at the drop of a hat at those places. That time is gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted August 19, 2012 #310 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Being extraordinarily successful does (generally) take hard work. My position, however, is that just because someone is currently poor, doesn't mean that they should be written off as a failure because being poor isn't necessarily a function of Meritocracy. I don't think many would argue that some people do Need welfare and unemployment insurance payments, but what I think is more a point of discussion is if the finances drained by the Un-needy, those who are parasites, if there drain is significant or not. I'm reading that You (Tiggs) believe that regardless of the fraud and theft, the program needs to be continued as is. While what I'm reading from some of the others is that the fraud needs to be addressed and that not enough is being done to eventually get people off the welfare and unemployment. I am in the camp where I believe not enough is being done to get people Out of Poverty. A check every month does not get someone out of poverty, it Keeps Them There!! Anyone that's been laid off in a deep recession, such as the one that we're in now, should be able to confirm that. I think you mean "sluggish recovery" rather then "recession" since Obama and the Boys have been saying that the Recession ended in 2009 and kept saying it into late 2010. My wife says that too. But those jobs no longer exist. There were days past when you could get hired at the drop of a hat at those places. That time is gone. There seems to be enough work for the illegal immigrants. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F3SS Posted August 19, 2012 Author #311 Share Posted August 19, 2012 (edited) My wife says that too. But those jobs no longer exist. There were days past when you could get hired at the drop of a hat at those places. That time is gone. Well that could only be the government not ensuring a business friendly environment. Don't mistake that for the government being responsible for creating jobs, because they are not. They must release the stranglehold of regulation and uncertainty of the future and you would see explosive job growth. The food industry alone is crushed with 10s of thousands of pages of regulation. Who wants to or can open a new business under that kind of red tape? And dont mistake that for wanting zero regulation, but 10's of thousands of pages for only one of many types of business? Edited August 19, 2012 by Is it for real Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted August 19, 2012 #312 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Well that could only be the government not ensuring a business friendly environment. Don't mistake that for the government being responsible for creating jobs, because they are not. They must release the stranglehold of regulation and uncertainty of the future and you would see explosive job growth. The food industry alone is crushed with 10s of thousands of pages of regulation. Who wants to or can open a new business under that kind of red tape? And dont mistake that for wanting zero regulation, but 10's of thousands of pages for only one of many types of business? From what I've read the "Socialist" nations of the EU on the Med... Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece... are all pushing through Deregulation legislation because they've all been in Recession for several years now. Not in a "recovery" like the US is, but actual decreasing output for years. And even these socialist nations understand that Deregulation is what is going to spur growth. Obama could learn something here from his Progressive Liberal associates over in Europe on how to generate job growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F3SS Posted August 19, 2012 Author #313 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Hey, maybe they're learning lessons the hard way. More regulation can never be the answer to job creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjadude Posted August 19, 2012 #314 Share Posted August 19, 2012 A check every month does not get someone out of poverty, it Keeps Them There!! And it's a pittance. And if you get a job, they reduce the amount so that you cannot get ahead of it. There seems to be enough work for the illegal immigrants. Only in your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjadude Posted August 19, 2012 #315 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Well that could only be the government not ensuring a business friendly environment. Don't mistake that for the government being responsible for creating jobs, because they are not. They must release the stranglehold of regulation and uncertainty of the future and you would see explosive job growth. The food industry alone is crushed with 10s of thousands of pages of regulation. Who wants to or can open a new business under that kind of red tape? And dont mistake that for wanting zero regulation, but 10's of thousands of pages for only one of many types of business? What a crock of BS you believe. Not a single shred of this is actually true. There are many new businesses that start all the time in the Food industry I work with them. And yes I WANT my food industry regulated. Apparently more so since they can't seem to do things right - as evidenced by recalls and outbreaks. Reducing regulation is what caused the Great Depression of 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjadude Posted August 19, 2012 #316 Share Posted August 19, 2012 From what I've read the "Socialist" nations of the EU on the Med... Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece... are all pushing through Deregulation legislation because they've all been in Recession for several years now. This is complete hogwash. If anything the EU has increased regulation. Deregulation is a prescription for complete disaster. not job growth. That's ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F3SS Posted August 19, 2012 Author #317 Share Posted August 19, 2012 This is complete hogwash. If anything the EU has increased regulation. Deregulation is a prescription for complete disaster. not job growth. That's ridiculous. Yes, because it's so easy and cost efficient to run a business with mounding regulations. Maybe that's the missing key to me expanding my business. I don't have enough rules to follow. If only I had more rules and paperwork to fill out I'd be able to concentrate on what matters....running the business. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supervike Posted August 20, 2012 #318 Share Posted August 20, 2012 (edited) My wife says that too. But those jobs no longer exist. There were days past when you could get hired at the drop of a hat at those places. That time is gone. But the thing is, that time isn't gone. I don't know anyone personally in my area that is without a job that wants one. It's not always the greatest of jobs, but if anyone really wants to work, it can be done. I'm not saying that this is the same everywhere, but I see tons of jobs in the paper. Maybe my area is just insulated from the rest of the country, but I can hardly believe that. I would think there are similar situations all across the nation. Edited August 20, 2012 by supervike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted August 20, 2012 #319 Share Posted August 20, 2012 This is complete hogwash. If anything the EU has increased regulation. Deregulation is a prescription for complete disaster. not job growth. That's ridiculous. I went back and tried to find where I read that and only found the concervative side of various European countries saying that is what they wanted. Not that the sitting leaders or legislatures were enacting such laws. So, I guess I was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjadude Posted August 20, 2012 #320 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Yes, because it's so easy and cost efficient to run a business with mounding regulations. Maybe that's the missing key to me expanding my business. I don't have enough rules to follow. If only I had more rules and paperwork to fill out I'd be able to concentrate on what matters....running the business. Truck driving if I remember, right? maybe so that unsafe loads aren't on the roads killing people? maybe so that companies don't take advantage of drivers? maybe so that trucks don't abuse public roadways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjadude Posted August 20, 2012 #321 Share Posted August 20, 2012 But the thing is, that time isn't gone. I don't know anyone personally in my area that is without a job that wants one. It's not always the greatest of jobs, but if anyone really wants to work, it can be done. I'm not saying that this is the same everywhere, but I see tons of jobs in the paper. Maybe my area is just insulated from the rest of the country, but I can hardly believe that. I would think there are similar situations all across the nation. It possible. However much of what you read in the paper are not real jobs. Companies post them but you cannot actually get one. It's kind of a scam. They are required to post the jobs even though they will be filled other ways. So i was told by a number of people - recruiters and people in companies. They're called paper jobs. And in fact, my newspaper (does anyone actually read a paper anymore) has very very few jobs compared to years past (Chicago Tribune). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted August 20, 2012 #322 Share Posted August 20, 2012 There are many new businesses that start all the time in the Food industry I work with them. And yes I WANT my food industry regulated. Apparently more so since they can't seem to do things right - as evidenced by recalls and outbreaks. I hope they are better regulated than the restaurant business. There is currently, as far as I'm aware never was, a list of health and safety code regulations and violations available to restaurant owners. The health department can visit you on a regular basis for fifteen years and see that the employee's bathroom door, off the store room, is always open. If they don't find anything wrong with the food prep area and kitchen they will penalize you because that bathroom doesn't have an automatic door closer. It is completely political and if you aren't nice to them they can arbitrarily shut you down because of violations that don't even exist on paper. It's not exactly how I want the system to work...in any industry. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjadude Posted August 20, 2012 #323 Share Posted August 20, 2012 (edited) I hope they are better regulated than the restaurant business. There is currently, as far as I'm aware never was, a list of health and safety code regulations and violations available to restaurant owners. The health department can visit you on a regular basis for fifteen years and see that the employee's bathroom door, off the store room, is always open. If they don't find anything wrong with the food prep area and kitchen they will penalize you because that bathroom doesn't have an automatic door closer. It is completely political and if you aren't nice to them they can arbitrarily shut you down because of violations that don't even exist on paper. As I understand it, restaurants are governed by LOCAL laws and health regs. Shirley you don't want the federal government doing that too (as a conservative? or Republican?). Health depts vary widely across the country. In fact, you clearly argue why certain regulations should be nationwide rather than local - the disparity in regions. Edited August 20, 2012 by ninjadude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted August 20, 2012 #324 Share Posted August 20, 2012 (edited) As I understand it, restaurants are governed by LOCAL laws and health regs. Shirley you don't want the federal government doing that too (as a conservative? or Republican?). Health depts vary widely across the country. In fact, you clearly argue why certain regulations should be nationwide rather than local - the disparity in regions. Don't call me Shirley. I would be interested if you could find a book of health department rules and regulations for restaurants from other states though. I'm not a conservative or a Republican and you got my point exactly. Some industries need to be more regulated and some need to have a little more leeway in the transition from years of very lenient environmental codes to suddenly converting everything over, meeting new standards, to the point of bankrupting them Edited August 20, 2012 by Michelle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted August 20, 2012 #325 Share Posted August 20, 2012 There seems to be enough work for the illegal immigrants. Not enough jobs for them. The problem is that they get to compete with legal citizens for the jobs that are available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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