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Mr.United_Nations

Who or what created God?

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Time moves in mysterious ways. Nothing is as versatile as time. without time, we are nothing. Everything has to travel through time, be it forward, backward or still.

Light travels through time, darkness too.

The deepness is time! Now if we discover where time came from, we may move through it with a better understanding whats around us.

What about black holes? Where time is perceived to be absent. A second here would not exist with a black hole, that concept alone is unbelievable.

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Okay, this is pretty deep. God is more than what we perceive him to me.

Maybe he isn't something physical, like religion states. He can be something higher than human perception.

This is possible. Quite frankly if something is capable of creating this universe. The God outlined in the bible does not exist I believe at all, but it may be something we simply could never hope to understand or ever find out.

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Concious beings..being humans? and what if there were no humans?

There would still be sequence but no recognition of interval.

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What about black holes? Where time is perceived to be absent. A second here would not exist with a black hole, that concept alone is unbelievable.

Only in preception because we are beings made up of signals. In reality things are still happening. This will be completely prooven if and when hawking radiation is prooven.

Edited by Seeker79

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watched a programme once saying that there was no "bang" as there was no sound because of its surrounding, will try and google it, but tired and my full concentration is not here as "Big mommas house" has just started.

I can sort of see where you are coming from with the universe bit, but from my side of the fence, i can not see how the universe could have come before time....if someting created the universe, it would have taken time to do it.

This is because people don't realize that there is no evidence that the vaccum was created at the big bang ;)

Edited by Seeker79

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I like the Kabbalists explanation for the coming into existence of the Manifested Universe via "The Tree of Life".

Ain - the unmanifested absolute, not even nothing is there

Ain Soph - the absolute

Ain Soph Aur - the manifested Absolute

God is the only "thing" that can enter or arise from Ain, as far as I understand this so far ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life_(Kabbalah)

Kabbalists believe the Tree of Life to be a diagrammatic representation of the process by which the Universe came into being. On the Tree of Life, the beginning of the Universe is placed at a space above the first sephira, named Keter ("crown" in English). It is not always pictured in reproductions of the Tree of Life, but is referred to universally as Ain Soph Aur (Ain - Without, Soph - End, Aur - Light).[citation needed] To kabbalists, it symbolizes that point beyond which our comprehension of the origins of Being cannot go; it is considered to be an infinite nothingness out of which the first 'thing' (thought of in science and the Kabbalah to be energy) exploded to create a Universe of multiple things.[2][3]

Kabbalists also do not envision time and space as pre-existing, and place them at the next three stages on the Tree of Life.

Also refer here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain_Soph_(disambiguation)

Ein Sof[pronunciation?], or Ayn Sof, (Hebrew אין סוף), in Kabbalah, is understood as God prior to His self-manifestation in the production of any spiritual Realm, probably derived from Ibn Gabirol's term, "the Endless One" (she-en lo tiklah). Ein Sof may be translated as "no end", "unending", "there is no end", or infinite.

Ein Sof is the divine origin of all created existence ......

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I got in to it with a Christian today over where did god came from. It started after I told her I believe the Universe is god and not separate. She tried to pin me down with where the Universe come from, it couldn't have come from nothing. I said I don't know, but I thought it was born like most things are, then I ask where did god come from. She started stammering and said I was going to hell. :clap: Hooray I am going to hell.

Edited by Darkwind
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The creator is nothing like the creation. You associate the way we are born and assume it must be similar.

This is a bit where Christianity slips. You cannot associate human traits with God. It is wrong to refer to him as father as that makes you think of a father as you have. That opens the doors for sons and so on.

Again, the Creator is nothing like the creation.

Although the bible clearly states that we are created in his image, you claim that the creator is nothing like the creation.

You said that we cannot associate human traits with God, but isn't God loving, patient, kind, just, merciful, gracious, joyful,

creative, generous, jealous and wrathful ? All human traits right ?

And did you know that Isaiah, Jeremiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all referred to God as father ? So why can't we ?

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Although the bible clearly states that we are created in his image, you claim that the creator is nothing like the creation.

You said that we cannot associate human traits with God, but isn't God loving, patient, kind, just, merciful, gracious, joyful,

creative, generous, jealous and wrathful ? All human traits right ?

And did you know that Isaiah, Jeremiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all referred to God as father ? So why can't we ?

I think the key is "created in his image". The image could also be as per the image of our minds eye - is everything we create in our imagination human? We can't know that

image means like unto God but more that it is what creation God has imagined/conceived. Every creature on earth can be attributed to have been created by the same means and many have the same attributes you have described as being God's also ....

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I think the key is "created in his image". The image could also be as per the image of our minds eye - is everything we create in our imagination human? We can't know that

image means like unto God but more that it is what creation God has imagined/conceived. Every creature on earth can be attributed to have been created by the same means and many have the same attributes you have described as being God's also ....

I think we created God (or at least our idea of Gof) in our image, since of course it's a natural Human trait to try to put things that we otherwise couldn't possibly comprehend in terms that are understandable to us. Hence God is a bearded paternalistic figure, it's so much easier to comprehend than an energy force that permeates the Universe, or the Universe itself, since in the old days people assumed that this planet was the Unvierse. It was of course, a very patriarchal society in those days, and so naturally people would assume that God was male. And who knows, God may actually take that form for those occasions when he* wishes to appear in person to selected people, such as Prophets, and of course in the form of Jesus, in order to be comprehensible to them. That at least is my theory.

* to anthropomorphise

Edited by 747400
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I think we created God (or at least our idea of Gof) in our image, since of course it's a natural Human trait to try to put things that we otherwise couldn't possibly comprehend in terms that are understandable to us. Hence God is a bearded paternalistic figure, it's so much easier to comprehend than an energy force that permeates the Universe, or the Universe itself, since in the old days people assumed that this planet was the Unvierse. It was of course, a very patriarchal society in those days, and so naturally people would assume that God was male. And who knows, God may actually take that form for those occasions when he* wishes to appear in person to selected people, such as Prophets, and of course in the form of Jesus, in order to be comprehensible to them. That at least is my theory.

* to anthropomorphise

I totally agree, God is much bigger than what we humans can imagine or claim to comprehend.

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* God, not Gof.

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I totally agree, God is much bigger than what we humans can imagine or claim to comprehend.

I agree, if he does exist, though, IF he does.

A lot of people seem to think they've got it all figured about god, I wonder where they get the kind of confidence from. I mean it's god for god's sake, we simply don't know too much.

One thing's for sure to me, explaining god or where he came from would be beyond some book that was written thousands of years ago by humans.

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I agree, if he does exist, though, IF he does.

A lot of people seem to think they've got it all figured about god, I wonder where they get the kind of confidence from. I mean it's god for god's sake

:P

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I think we created God (or at least our idea of Gof) in our image, since of course it's a natural Human trait to try to put things that we otherwise couldn't possibly comprehend in terms that are understandable to us. Hence God is a bearded paternalistic figure, it's so much easier to comprehend than an energy force that permeates the Universe, or the Universe itself, since in the old days people assumed that this planet was the Unvierse. It was of course, a very patriarchal society in those days, and so naturally people would assume that God was male. And who knows, God may actually take that form for those occasions when he* wishes to appear in person to selected people, such as Prophets, and of course in the form of Jesus, in order to be comprehensible to them. That at least is my theory.

* to anthropomorphise

I totally agree, the only difference is, I do not think we created god, i know we did.

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We always try to find an anwer to everything. For again,we simply have NO DEFINITE answer to things.

Sure, some evidence here and there. But are we given the whole answer? Nope, not at all. So we fill in the holes with our own reasoning.

Simply put, we think we know how the Universe started.But we really don't.

Big Bang: Where did the clump of matter come from? How did the vacuum even exist for it to reside in? Why is it just a clump of matter?

God: Where did He come from? Was a creation of something higher? A figmet of our mythology-based imagination?

Not sure if any Earthly source can explain such a concept of God. "But, but the Bible said-". Nope, just text written by Man, as well as the Qu'ran and Torah.

In my opinion, a concept of a Creator isn't much about evidence, just a strong belief. For those who don't believe in Him, well that requires evidence. I don't think they quite understand that some things in this world don't have logical evidence to explain. Or maybe I just don't know them at all. :whistle:

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I always wanted to know this but who or what created him? was it himself? created by other gods? a super-god?

Because in order of something to exist, he or she has to be created.

Humans created all their gods in a attempt to explain everything in a nice, simple package.

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Only in preception because we are beings made up of signals. In reality things are still happening. This will be completely prooven if and when hawking radiation is prooven.

Given it is true, it would mean time is only a concept we apply to certain things and not all applies. Suggesting there is a lot more to our dimension than we even know.It would be interesting if a two dimensional place existed or a four dimensional place existed. Imagine how much that would turn what we knew on its head if we stumbled upon it.

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Given it is true, it would mean time is only a concept we apply to certain things and not all applies. Suggesting there is a lot more to our dimension than we even know.It would be interesting if a two dimensional place existed or a four dimensional place existed. Imagine how much that would turn what we knew on its head if we stumbled upon it.

String theory suggests that there are 7 more than the three we are aware of.

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I find it funny that people keep claiming 'the universe couldn't have started from nothing' but then go to talk about God and Religion but yet they are in the same situation - who created God???

Religion is based on thousands of years of lack of knowledge of the world and the universe, most of which we already understand or are working on understanding.

We are at a time where we realize that there are BILLIONS of galaxies in the universe, each with BILLIONS of suns, most of which will have several planets orbiting them.

To think that Earth is something special created by God is a joke. But then the religious folk answer by saying that God created all of those galaxies and planets too, he created everything..

Why not just get rid of the God theory and believe in the universe instead? The paths lead down the same road (nobody knows how either one were created) but at least we are gaining knowledge of the universe.

We will never gain knowledge of God.

Edited by uprize
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I find it funny that people keep claiming 'the universe couldn't have started from nothing' but then go to talk about God and Religion but yet they are in the same situation - who created God???

Religion is based on thousands of years of lack of knowledge of the world and the universe, most of which we already understand or are working on understanding.

We are at a time where we realize that there are BILLIONS of galaxies in the universe, each with BILLIONS of suns, most of which will have several planets orbiting them.

To think that Earth is something special created by God is a joke. But then the religious folk answer by saying that God created all of those galaxies and planets too, he created everything..

Why not just get rid of the God theory and believe in the universe instead? The paths lead down the same road (nobody knows how either one were created) but at least we are gaining knowledge of the universe.

We will never gain knowledge of God.

That's looking at it in exactly the same way that non-Goddish people criticise Goddish people for doing; seeing God as a seperate entity, like a mega-father figure, who decides to do things on a whim. This was the way that people thought of God in the old days as, as outlined above, they naturally tried to put things in terms that they understood.

Who nowadays tries to argue* that Earth is something special created by God? Why do you see the argument by "religious folk" that God created all of those galaxies and planets too, he created everything, as a cop out? Why is that based on lack of knowledge of the world and the universe? Is it not a response out of awe at the Universe itself? Could not God and the Universe been seen as synynoymous, but not that that makes God redundant because God might be the intelligent force that makes it all happen and was responsible for designing the laws in the first place, laws which many argue do give every impression of being designed with incredible precision?

* well, ok, i suppose some bible belt literalists might do, but they're hardly typical

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That's looking at it in exactly the same way that non-Goddish people criticise Goddish people for doing; seeing God as a seperate entity, like a mega-father figure, who decides to do things on a whim. This was the way that people thought of God in the old days as, as outlined above, they naturally tried to put things in terms that they understood.

Who nowadays tries to argue* that Earth is something special created by God? Why do you see the argument by "religious folk" that God created all of those galaxies and planets too, he created everything, as a cop out? Why is that based on lack of knowledge of the world and the universe? Is it not a response out of awe at the Universe itself? Could not God and the Universe been seen as synynoymous, but not that that makes God redundant because God might be the intelligent force that makes it all happen and was responsible for designing the laws in the first place, laws which many argue do give every impression of being designed with incredible precision?

* well, ok, i suppose some bible belt literalists might do, but they're hardly typical

God was a convenient way to explain some of the fantastic ways of our universe thousands of years ago.

People didnt know what floods were, or cyclones, fires, etc.

They didnt know what stars were. Or the Moon. Or the Sun.

It kind of makes sense to create the illusion of God back when you didn't know about our solar system or the universe as a whole.

It does not make sense to continue with the God belief after all the knowledge that we have made so far.

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God was a convenient way to explain some of the fantastic ways of our universe thousands of years ago.

People didnt know what floods were, or cyclones, fires, etc.

They didnt know what stars were. Or the Moon. Or the Sun.

It kind of makes sense to create the illusion of God back when you didn't know about our solar system or the universe as a whole.

It does not make sense to continue with the God belief after all the knowledge that we have made so far.

Why doesn't it? You assume that knowledge of the universe makes God redundant? I'd say it makes the idea make even more sense, since the idea propagated by people like friend Dawkins that it all came into being, and developed, and continues working, entirely by an incredible series of amazing coincidences or purely mechanical processes or pure natural selection seems to rely on such an incredible string of coincidences and strokes of luck that it barely seems plausible.

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Why doesn't it? You assume that knowledge of the universe makes God redundant? I'd say it makes the idea make even more sense, since the idea propagated by people like friend Dawkins that it all came into being, and developed, and continues working, entirely by an incredible series of amazing coincidences or purely mechanical processes or pure natural selection seems to rely on such an incredible string of coincidences and strokes of luck that it barely seems plausible.

Yes I do.

Doesn't seem plausible to who? You? It seems much more plausible to mostly anyone with any scientific knowledge.

Why are there <10% religious people in the physics scientific community? Because they are the ones who understand the universe the most, and they realize WHY things happen as they do, and it has nothing to do with religion.

Why is the Earth so special? Why did 'God' create us out of nothing in 7 days and let us populate this planet, when there are TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS of other planets out in the universe?

I suppose he created all of them too. I bet they all have apple trees too! :whistle:

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God was a convenient way to explain some of the fantastic ways of our universe thousands of years ago.

People didnt know what floods were, or cyclones, fires, etc.

They didnt know what stars were. Or the Moon. Or the Sun.

It kind of makes sense to create the illusion of God back when you didn't know about our solar system or the universe as a whole.

It does not make sense to continue with the God belief after all the knowledge that we have made so far.

Absolute agree.

Funny how those with the evidence do not need to argue the case, but those with a belief still try to.

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