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Missi NuNu

Illuminati and 2012 Olympics Conspiracy

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For example, the Bohemian Club is a secret society. It's members are comprised of politicians (up to and including Presidents of the United States) along with other high ranking members of society. These people gather on a yearly basis to worship a 40-foot stone owl.

What I state above is fact, yet for some reason people seem to brush it aside as if it meaningless. Why is that so?

I am hoping to find the patience to respond to your earlier post to me at some point (edit) nevermind, I found the time and patience after all (/edit), but I'd rather not wait to respond to this particular point. Not all of what you stated above is FACT. Please provide even the slightest bit of evidence to support your assertion that the Bohemian Club worships a 40-foot stone owl. Anything at all.

And once you come to the conclusion that you can't prove this, because you can't, ask yourself why statements like these just might reduce your credibility a tad.

Thanks.

Edited by booNyzarC

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I have never claimed anything I've stated or presented "proves" there is an Illuminati. I've actually admitted that nothing I've presented "proves" such things.

Fair enough. Maybe it's time for you to abandon the idea then if you can't provide proof. Or can you?

The information I have brought forth, however, gives very strong indication that a group encompassing the beliefs associated with the Illuminati has infiltrated key institutions in the world or government, law enforcement, business, and media (among other things) as a means of conditioning and manipulating people, as well as placing themselves in better position to carry forth self serving agendas and covering up their own crimes.

In your opinion perhaps, but not in mine. Do you see how easy it is to refute opinion? With all due respect of course, but until you can substantiate this idea of there being an Illuminati, people are going to continue to think that you believe in something that is, well, unsubstantiated.

I have never claimed otherwise. By the same token, those who don't believe what I do shouldn't feel that I need to believe what they do about such things.

This thread is about the Illuminat though, so that is what I've been discussing.

Okay, feel free to discuss it. Do you mind if I comment about your discussions if I find them less than convincing?

If people find the very idea to be so ridiculous to the point they won't look into the information suggesting such things are true, why bother to discuss such a topic to begin with (well, I actually already know at least a partial answer to that, and it's to scoff at, mock, and belittle those who do discuss and/or believe such things).

Furthermore, that very approach only underlines my point that those of you who laugh at such things to do so without having any notable level of knowledge about the topic.

If one truly wants to look into and understand why others believe in things such as the Illuminati than they need to look into all the information presented by those who actually do read about this topic.

You can't very well find the information I or others present (I don't believe I have ever called it "evidence" despite you presenting it that way) insubstantial when you don't look into very deeply - if at all.

This goes for any subject matter whether it be conspiracy related or not.

If you haven't provided any evidence, by your own admission, why should anyone entertain your musings about the topic? Musings is probably the wrong word to use too, isn't it? You tell me. How exactly would you characterize your... statements? information? regarding this Illuminati?

What information exactly are you talking about anyway? I've looked at a few Illuminati websites. I'm sorry, but all the ones I've looked at appear to have been compiled by schizophrenics. They are literally painful to look at. They are disjointed, erratic, filled with all kinds of nonsensical imagery and commentary. Reading through the nonsense on most of them is kind of like what I imagine a bad acid trip to be like. (I imagine this because I've never dropped acid, though I've heard all kinds of stories, and websites devoted to this kind of topic seem to epitomize exactly how I've envisioned the ordeal...)

That is your opinion. And it comes from someone who apparently isn't interested in actually discussing the beliefs others have about the Illuminati, but is only really interested in mocking those who do.

I must admit that I'm not overly interested in discussing these things because of the impression I've drawn from the above described nightmares which tout themselves to be authorities on the subject.

That said... if you can somehow find a way to bring all of this into a comprehendable focus, I'm willing to look. Please keep it as short as possible though.

You call my commentary "long winded" because you have no interest in learning about, looking into on your own, or confronting the relevant amounts of information I present.

You state my comments are aggressive (and bordering on "militant" apparently) because you don't like the fact I call foolish statements foolish, stupid comments stupid, and ridiculous claims ridiculous.

You claim I'm the aggressive one, yet you have no problem with the fact people have "attacked" me throughout my first post in this thread. You have joined in on this bahavior and encouraged it to continue. Yet somehow I'm the aggressive one?

You claim my comments are nonsensical and off-topic, yet this is only because you refuse to look into the things I state and fail to understand why it is all connected to begin with.

By your own statements in this post of yours I'm quoting you are only proving the fact that you and those who approach topics like this in the same manner you do aren't interested in learning anything about the topic. All you want to do is mingle amongst yourselves and laugh at those who actually have a better understanding of the subject than you do.

No, I call your commentary "long winded" because I have found it to be "long winded."

No, I state that your comments are aggressive (bordering on 'militant') because I have found that they are often aggressive (bordering on 'militant').

No, I claim that you are the aggressive one because you attempted to ram your point of view down my throat even after I had asked you to stop and expressed why I wanted you to stop.

No, I claim that your comments are sometimes nonsensical and off-topic because I have found that sometimes they are nonsensical and off-topic.

No, this is not the only reason that I participate in topics like this, though at times I have little more to add than a clever and hopefully humorous observation. If the truth be told, I'm curious about this Illuminati mentality and how anyone can legitimately arrive at the conclusions that you appear to have found. It makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. Perhaps you can shed some light on this subject and validate your beliefs?

If I know nothing about the game of baseball and want to learn all about it I'm going to turn to someone who has acutally studied the game and knows it's history. If possible I'd talk to people who have played and/or coached the sport.

I'm not going to go to someone who says "Oh, I've heard of baseball, but I have never watched a game or played it. And I have no idea what the rules are or terminoligy is. I think it's pretty stupid and ridiculous though anyway."

This applies to any given topic. Just because the uneducated person on the sport of baseball thinks it's stupid does not in anyway mean the sport is actually stupid and ridiculous.

This is an excellent point and I agree wholeheartedly with the way you have illustrated it. So tell me. Lay it on me.

Prove to me that the Illuminati is an actual organized entity as you appear to believe.

I warn you though, I'm not going put on the kid gloves. If you present complete garbage in an effort to support this idea, I'm going to tell you that I think it is complete garbage.

Thank you. I appreciate the compliments.

Truth is, I'm not a "bad guy." I have what I consider to be a pretty good sense of humor. That said I'm not so sure how I'm supposed to lighten up a bit when discussing things I believe in and upon doing so I have people laughing at and ridiculing me for those beliefs.

If I stated my beliefs and others respectfully disagreed it'd be entirely different and I would show them the same level of respect in return. It works both ways.

I am not one who enjoys arguing with people. My preference is to always have respectful and intelligent dialouge with others.

Again, thank you. I hope you have a good day (or week, or year... why not, right? lol) too.

You're welcome, I meant them sincerely.

Cheers.

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Fair enough. Maybe it's time for you to abandon the idea then if you can't provide proof. Or can you?

I have enough proof that meets the standards I need to know how the "elite" run the world. No amount of this proof I present to you will change your mind on this topic.

You know this as well as I do.

If you care to respond, however, what exactly would you constitue as proof regarding my beliefs?

In your opinion perhaps, but not in mine. Do you see how easy it is to refute opinion? With all due respect of course, but until you can substantiate this idea of there being an Illuminati, people are going to continue to think that you believe in something that is, well, unsubstantiated.

People who really look into such things realize that what I and others state is very much substantiated. By your own admission, you do not take this topic seriously nor do you care to delve into it all that deeply.

That being the case it is fair for I and others to reason that you know little of what you state about this sunject and never will unless you at some point decide you are willing to look into the information that abounds indicating the "elite" truly operate in the manner I have stated.

Okay, feel free to discuss it. Do you mind if I comment about your discussions if I find them less than convincing?

Not at all.

What I mind is when people veer off the path of discussing the topic and instead choose to mock and belittle me as a person rather than have respectful and intelligent dialogue about the topic itself.

If you haven't provided any evidence, by your own admission, why should anyone entertain your musings about the topic? Musings is probably the wrong word to use too, isn't it? You tell me. How exactly would you characterize your... statements? information? regarding this Illuminati?

I see it from this perspective. In the court of law a criminal can be found "not guilty" as long as the jury deems there is even the slightest bit of "reasonable doubt" pertaining to whether or not he committed the crime.

Simply because a good lawyer may be able to twist things in a way that causes reasonable doubt in the mind of even one jury member, however, does not mean the man on trial did not commit the crime he has been accused of.

The information I use to base my beliefs about how the "elite" operate is sound. It all points to my beliefs being quite accurate. The fact that you and others approach the subject constantly looking for anything you can deem "reasonable doubt" and manage to fulfill that pre-exisiting belief of yours however does not mean the "elite" do not operate in the manner I and others righfully believe they do.

What information exactly are you talking about anyway?

I'm talking about historical events which have occurred throughout history, along with known secret societies that partake in occult like practices and who's membership is comprised of the very "elite" people I have stated operate in the manner I have stated.

I have made mention of a few of these things multiple times. Every time I do so, however, not one person has been willing to address them.

I must admit that I'm not overly interested in discussing these things because of the impression I've drawn from the above described nightmares which tout themselves to be authorities on the subject.

Whatever your reason may be, you readily admit that you are not "overly interested" in discussing such things. I'm going to assume that means you aren't "overly interested" in looking into any amount of relevant information pertaining to such things either - especially any that doesn't fall in line with your pre-established beliefs.

That being the case I fail to understand why you continue discussing the topic and attempt to present yourself at times as if you are genuinely willing to approach it from an unbiased and truly interested standpoint.

That said... if you can somehow find a way to bring all of this into a comprehendable focus, I'm willing to look. Please keep it as short as possible though.

It's nearly impossible to keep it as short as you would like it to be - especially coming from me as I know that presenting my thoughts on things (regardless of subject matter) generally does it fall in line with being concise. Regarding a topic like this as well as I would like would be more like a lenthy report as opposed to a simple one post response.

You may be willing to look at what I would say, but only if it met your requirements. I have presented various bits of information already throughout this thread which your commentary - and admittance to not being overly interested in such discussions - suggests you really aren't willing to look into much at all, let alone give any proper attention to, on your own.

No, I call your commentary...

I would address each of these statements you made seperately, but I have already done so, and to do so again will only veer this thread in a direction I'd rather not head in again.

I will say that at least one of the things you said is a false misrepresentation of how things truly occurred. Rather than explain why to everyone I will simply leave it at that, however.

No, this is not the only reason that I participate in topics like this, though at times I have little more to add than a clever and hopefully humorous observation.

Well, based upon that statement it would seem that the reasons I have stated as to why you participate in this topic are at least partially accurate.

By your own admission you "at time... have little more to add than a 'clever' and hopefully humerous observation."

If the truth be told, I'm curious about this Illuminati mentality and how anyone can legitimately arrive at the conclusions that you appear to have found. It makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. Perhaps you can shed some light on this subject and validate your beliefs?

I have done these things throughout the thread. Whenever I have made mention of the things that lie at the heart of my beliefs regarding an organization such as the "Illuminati" however everyone who opposes my beliefs has not once addressed the things I have made mention of.

With that being the case it becomes rather tiresome for me to keep presenting the same relevant information over and over again only for those who ask for it to be presented continually overlook it.

And in regards to people who steadfastly believe conspiracy theorists do not exist it has been my experience at this forum (and in general) that no amount of relevant information indicating otherwise will ever change their minds about such things regardless of what conspiracy is being discusssed.

This is an excellent point and I agree wholeheartedly with the way you have illustrated it. So tell me. Lay it on me.

Prove to me that the Illuminati is an actual organized entity as you appear to believe.

Again, what would you deem to be "proof" that an organization such as the Illuminati exists?

There is overwhelming amounts of information available suggesting the "elite" operate in the manner I have indicated. I can lay it on you repeatedly though and no matter how thickly I do you will not alter your pre-established beliefs about such things.

I should also note that it is not my desire to "prove" to anyone that my beliefs are true. I am simply presenting my reasoning as to why I and others believe what we believe.

Ultimately, if you really want to understand why we believe such things you will need to take a legitimate look into the information that is presented on your own and keep going further and further with it (dig deeer) to come to an understanding of such things.

You have indicated you are not interested enough to do so, however, and therefore I have no doubt that you will never be convinced the "elite" operate in the manner I have expressed them doing so.

I warn you though, I'm not going put on the kid gloves. If you present complete garbage in an effort to support this idea, I'm going to tell you that I think it is complete garbage.

Again, I have little doubt that regardless of any information I present pertaining to this topic it is something you will claim is "complete garbage." Either that, or you will claim the historical information I present has nothing to do with the issue at hand when the truth is that it does.

In attempt to see what you think about one simple thing pertaining to this topic, however, what are your thoughts on this symbolism being present within the closing ceremony of the 2012 Olympics?

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Again, I have little doubt that regardless of any information I present pertaining to this topic it is something you will claim is "complete garbage." Either that, or you will claim the historical information I present has nothing to do with the issue at hand when the truth is that it does.

Seeing as I have given up even entertaining this topic several pages back.

I would like to note that the presentation would be considered complete garbage if there is no difinitive proof the Illuminati exsists,

You can take many of the world's happening at random moments, things that happen in the media, meetings by politicians, group activites, throw them all into a pot and claim a secret society is trying to take over the world.

Like i said before.

Argumentum Verbosum

As a matter of fact, most of your arguments are based on so much informal infallacies that it gives a good reason to just not bother continuing on discussions with you.

Edited by RaptorBites
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*snipped all the other stuff, scroll up if you want to read it*

Ultimately, if you really want to understand why we believe such things you will need to take a legitimate look into the information that is presented on your own and keep going further and further with it (dig deeer) to come to an understanding of such things.

You have indicated you are not interested enough to do so, however, and therefore I have no doubt that you will never be convinced the "elite" operate in the manner I have expressed them doing so.

Again, I have little doubt that regardless of any information I present pertaining to this topic it is something you will claim is "complete garbage." Either that, or you will claim the historical information I present has nothing to do with the issue at hand when the truth is that it does.

You could have saved yourself a lot of typing, and me a lot of reading, by simply saying "I don't actually have any evidence, but if I did I don't believe you would accept it anyway."

You can't say that I haven't asked for it. I very clearly requested you to make your case. If you choose not to, that is up to you.

In attempt to see what you think about one simple thing pertaining to this topic, however, what are your thoughts on this symbolism being present within the closing ceremony of the 2012 Olympics?

A rising phoenix? I fail to see how you equate this to be the Lamen of Ordo Templi Orientis.

First of all, the Eye of Horus is notably missing from the triangle above the phoenix. Secondly, it's a freaking rising phoenix, not a descending dove. Third, there is no cross in the supposed chalice below. I suppose you could suggest that there are 'crosses' on either side of the phoenix in the crowd, but then it isn't exactly the Lamen of Ordo Templi Orientis is it? Fourth, it isn't even a chalice at all, but rather the flaming Olympic cauldron. Fifth, even if it were supposed to be a chalice, the Lamen of Ordo Templi Orientis has a singular flame at the top, it isn't filled with burning flames like the Olympic cauldron. Sixth, where are the 24 rays which are supposed to be extending from the triangle with no Eye of Horus? Seventh, where is the heart shaped Host?

In short, you're trying to shoehorn an interpretation into this imagery which is completely inappropriate. It doesn't fit.

This is no more symbolic of the Illuminati than a music video is. It doesn't fit at all.

What does it actually symbolize? Seems to me that it merely symbolizes the closing of the games. Nothing more.

Here's a simple article with a less sinister point of view if you're interested.

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As a matter of fact, most of your arguments are based on so much informal infallacies that it gives a good reason to just not bother continuing on discussions with you.

Then I suggest you do so.

I know how people with your mindset are. You will never believe anything unless there is 100% undeniable proof of it thrown in your face. And even then you will still search for even the slighest bit of doubt you can cling to as a means of assuring yourself it can't possibly be true.

You can claim the reasons I have given for my beliefs are argumentum verbosum (and all your like minded "friends" can lend their support behind that incorrect claim), but in reality they are not. It is simply a response you resort to as a means of avoiding deeper, worthwhile, and relevant discussion about the topic.

It happens time and time again on here. Rather than discuss the topic and the information presented the CTD argue over why they feel the information is irrelevant without ever taking a look into such things.

You dismiss everything off hand even though you guys know you never bother to look into such claims seriously. It stands to reason that those who do look into all the relevant information available and then arrive at their beliefs upon doing so are the ones who actually understand why it is all connected.

It makes no sense, however, for those of you who admittedly don't care to look into such things to somehow believe you know more about the topic than those who take a great deal of interest in it and learn as much as they can about it.

But anyway, I do not discuss my beliefs or present information about such things for the sake of trying to convince anyone that I am right and they are wrong. I present the information so that those willing to look into what I state will do so and then arrive at their own beliefs regarding the topics.

While some of you may think the members that post within these discussions are the only ones following the topic that is far from being the case. There are many, many people (be them members or guests) who read these topics and actually do find them worthwhile and interesting and are willing to delve into researching the topic rather than dismiss it out of have because they already have a pre-conceived set of beliefs which they stubbornly stick by regardless of any amount of information presented to them that indicates otherwise.

"Proof" has nothing to do with it. It's a matter of understanding things and not being so blind and stubborn as to what all the things I make mention of indicate.

But even with that said the information available is proof within itself for those capable of understanding it. Some, actually most, will never understand it because you can't even fathom the possibility of the "elite" operating in the way that they do.

Anyhow, I agree with you on one thing - discussing this on and on with the same people over and over again when I already know how you will repeatedly approach every bit of information I present regardless of how much it indicates the "elite" operate in the manner I have stated is growing quite tiresome.

That being the case I think I'm pretty close to simply letting those of you who don't care to take a serious look into anything regarding this topic - and some of you have openly admitted as much - go about making your comments and carrying on in the manner you have been.

If I feel like it I will simply post more information regarding the topic so that the other members and guests who read through this thread can look into what I make mention of is they so choose and come to their own decisions.

And should a member care to chime in that is actually interested in the subject itself rather than criticizing members who believe such things - along with knowing how to have an intelligent, meaningful, and respectful dialogue with others - I will go about discussing it with them.

Attempting to discuss these things with pretty much anyone outside of 74700 so far has proven to be fruitless.

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Then I suggest you do so.

I know how people with your mindset are. You will never believe anything unless there is 100% undeniable proof of it thrown in your face. And even then you will still search for even the slighest bit of doubt you can cling to as a means of assuring yourself it can't possibly be true.

So basically you can't stand to debate with people who do not support your views.

Basically you are saying that those who need 100% confirmation of a conspiracy confirmed with evidence that cannot be refuted are silly.

Basically, you have nothing that 100% confirms your views

Understood.

Edited by RaptorBites
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So basically you can't stand to debate with people who do not support your views.

Have I not been "debating" throughout this entire thread about my views?

If I express my views, clearly state which things are at the heart of my beliefs regarding an organization like the Illuminati existing, and then those who don't believe such a group exists admittedly overlook and ignore the issues I have raised what am I left to do?

I can repeat everything I have said again if you like. If you are only going to ignore it or simply claim it is "argumentum verbosium" (which it isn't) then what is the point of me stating repeatedly?

Not only that, but others (and perhaps you - I don't recall offhand) have already admitted they don't take this topic seriously enough to put any worthwhile amount of time into researching it - and certainly not any of the information I present which stands in contrast to their pre-established beliefs.

With that being the case explain to me how there is any room for me to "debate" with people who obviously will obviously not believe anything other than what it is they want to believe regarding this subject?

Basically you are saying that those who need 100% confirmation of a conspiracy confirmed with evidence that cannot be refuted are silly.

Not quite. What I am saying is that people who need 100% "proof" of pretty much anything are sometimes acting in a foolish manner - it depends on the issue at hand. I will again use the expample of court in which there could be overwhelming amounts of information (and, in fact, evidence) present which could lead almost everyone to believe the person on trial is all but 100% guilty of the crime he is accused of committing.

If that person's lawyer can poke even the slightest hole into any little bit of information and/or evidence presented, however, the jury can then declare the accused "not guilty" based upon what they conclude is either "reasonable" doubt or by saying "Yes, we believe this person committed the crime, but the prosecuter didn't 'prove' it to our satisfaction."

If you want something you and other conspiracy theorists doubters regard as 100% proof regarding the Illuminati you will never find it. No matter how much information and evidence is presented to you about the topic you will always find what you consider to be "reasonable doubt" as a means of dismissing the subject entirely.

I have come across plenty of information that leads me to believe the "elite" operate in the manner I have expressed. The thing is, the CTDs will never look at this information from an unbiased standpoint and as such they will never believe anything other than what they want to believe.

What exactly would you consider 100% proof of the Illuminati to begin with?

Basically, you have nothing that 100% confirms your views.

Understood.

I have never claimed that I did and I would never claim that I do. I have stated numerous times that there is plenty of information available to those willing to take an honest look into the subject that indicates the "elite" operate in the manner I and others have stated.

By the same token, however, you and those who side with you have nothing that 100% confirms your views about how the government/elite (or whatever you prefer to refer to them as) operate either.

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I have come across plenty of information that leads me to believe the "elite" operate in the manner I have expressed. The thing is, the CTDs will never look at this information from an unbiased standpoint and as such they will never believe anything other than what they want to believe.

You have said several things to this effect, that people who do not believe your theory are biased, have preconceived beliefs that they won't change, and that people that disagree with you are just believing what they want to believe. This is a fallacy typically called 'poisoning the well'. From the excellent Skeptic's Dictionary: "it creates the false impression that the position you hold is held in good faith while the position you oppose is held by corrupt or compromised people". You are basically saying, 'look at my evidence and if you don't agree with me, it's not because it's actually your honest conclusion from the evidence, it's because you are being irrational'. Heads you win, tails your opponents lose. If you think about if the roles were reversed and you were on the receiving end of that statement in a disagreement, I think you'd understand the fallacious nature of it.

By the same token, however, you and those who side with you have nothing that 100% confirms your views about how the government/elite (or whatever you prefer to refer to them as) operate either.

Agreed. Which then leads us both toward the position of 'we don't know' exactly how the government/elite operate. That position is not an issue for people who disagree with you necessarily, as you are the one who is taking the position that you do 'know' how the elite operate to some extent.

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I think you'd understand the fallacious nature of it.

I do understand the nature of what you are saying. And if I were stating that everyone who arrives at conclusions which stand in contrast to my own were doing this very thing I'd agree that that is what I have done.

The thing is, however, is that I am making such comments in regards to people who have readily admitted to not taking this topic seriously. People who have readily admitted they will not take the time to look into any information which suggests the "elite" operate in the manner I believe they do.

When people refuse to look into such information, yet they have no qualms about telling those who do look into such things how wrong they are then they are clearly not coming to an honest conclusion based on all the evidence. They are arriving at their conclusions based on their preconceived notions and lack of overall knowledge about the topic.

Agreed. Which then leads us both toward the position of 'we don't know' exactly how the government/elite operate. That position is not an issue for people who disagree with you necessarily, as you are the one who is taking the position that you do 'know' how the elite operate to some extent.

I am the one being told I am wrong for my beliefs about how the "elite" run things. I'm not being told I may be wrong, I'm being told I am flat-out wrong.

If those telling me I am wrong have zero thoughts of their own about how the "elite" operate then how can they possibly conclude that my thoughts on the subject are 100% wrong?

The only way they can claim such a thing is if they have their own thoughts concerning the matter which stand in contrast to mine. And in that regard those people can't provide any amount of 100% proof concerning their beliefs on the subject any more than I can present the 100% proof they are seeking from me.

Yet for some reason, simply because I can't provide 100% proof (which again, I never claimed I could) they automatically declare I am wrong and that my beliefs must be based on nothing more than nonsense because this 100% proof is not being produced.

If that is the case, and if they are being fair about things, then they would also be left to conclude that whatever their thoughts are regarding how the "elite" operate is based on nothing more than nonsense as well.

And if that is so, what makes them feel their nonsensical beliefs are any more valid than the ones they are claiming mine to be?

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The thing is, however, is that I am making such comments in regards to people who have readily admitted to not taking this topic seriously. People who have readily admitted they will not take the time to look into any information which suggests the "elite" operate in the manner I believe they do.

When people refuse to look into such information, yet they have no qualms about telling those who do look into such things how wrong they are then they are clearly not coming to an honest conclusion based on all the evidence. They are arriving at their conclusions based on their preconceived notions and lack of overall knowledge about the topic.

Or they are coming to conclusions based on what they think is sufficient information to know whether it's valid or not? You don't have to, and can't possibly, know everything there is to know about any topic in order to come to informed conclusions about it. I don't have to study the astrological theories concerning the esoterics of how the precession of the equinoxes (yes, I had to look that up) supposedly affect horoscopes to know that astrology is likely bunk. They haven't shown any mechanism by which astrology works or any evidence of even a phenomenon to study, that's about all I really need to know.

I am the one being told I am wrong for my beliefs about how the "elite" run things. I'm not being told I may be wrong, I'm being told I am flat-out wrong.

If those telling me I am wrong have zero thoughts of their own about how the "elite" operate then how can they possibly conclude that my thoughts on the subject are 100% wrong?

Are they telling you there is no possibility that you are correct, or that you don't have nearly enough evidence to support your assertion? And I disagree with your 'zero thoughts' argument here, I could have no opinion on how the elite operate because I don't think there is enough evidence to determine that, and still say that your assertion is likely wrong, well, because I don't think there is enough evidence to determine that (or that directly supports your point). I don't have to provide a counterproposal explaining how the elite operate, I can just point out that there's not enough evidence to support what you're arguing for example.

Yet for some reason, simply because I can't provide 100% proof (which again, I never claimed I could) they automatically declare I am wrong and that my beliefs must be based on nothing more than nonsense because this 100% proof is not being produced.

Again, you are kind of poisoning the well, no one's standard is 100% proof, and you are ignoring the (likely) possibility that they legitimately disagree with you. It is possible that you are just incorrect on this, right? There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, you don't lose any points for it (as matter of fact, on a personal level you gain them in that there's the opportunity to learn something new). I haven't read the thread and I haven't read your evidence so realize I'm just talking about your argumentation in a hypothetical sense above, I haven't read what you've had to say so have no opinion on whether you are correct or not. I just mainly wanted to point out the poisoning the well thing, and also I'll just note that you've put together a few decent sized posts here (and mine are usually long also) but most of it is kind of repeating how unreasonable the people who disagree with you are being and how biased they are. All of that space could alternatively better be taken up with your evidence and the statement of your arguments, and the addressing of people's counterpoints. Not saying any of this to be mean or debate you, just my opinion.

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When people refuse to look into such information, yet they have no qualms about telling those who do look into such things how wrong they are then they are clearly not coming to an honest conclusion based on all the evidence. They are arriving at their conclusions based on their preconceived notions and lack of overall knowledge about the topic.

Just for the sake of clarity, are you referring to me with this in any way? Also for the sake of clarity, I'd like to point out that I've asked you to present your case. For the most part you've chosen not to, though you did ask me to look at a piece of your evidence... stuff... erm, information... I did so here. Is it your intention to not address or even acknowledge the points raised?

Are you replacing what Raptor has identified as Argumentum Verbosum with a new tactic of Argumentum Avoidum? Just curious.

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For the record, it's Bohemian Grove, not the Bohemian Club. And yes, there is a 40 foot stone Owl.

Now, a few things to point out:

1, just because a group meets in private (whether they are regular people, the elite, or world leaders) does not make them a secret society, nor does it mean anything sinister is going on. If you can't understand the basic human right to privacy, then give me your address, and I'll be glad to welcome myself into your home.

2, I enjoy learning about "secret societies". Mainly, because learning about them means that they are NOT secret! The world cannot know the existence of a group if it is a secret group, otherwise, they are not a secret group. Yes, the Illuminati did exist. They don't anymore, and not one shed of FACTUAL evidence has come out to prove otherwise. Yes, there have been people's interpretations of possible evidence, but most is nothing more than wild speculation and paranoia.

3, The absolutely wonderful thing about a belief, is to believe it, you don't need proof. However, when you are trying to convince someone else that your belief is true (or correct), then you must provide something tangible to back up your position. Otherwise, you are nothing more than one of those bible thumpers going door-to-door p***ing people off.

Edited by MstrMsn
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Just for the sake of clarity, are you referring to me with this in any way?

I'm referring to everyone who has done what I stated either currently, at some point within this thread, or in regards to certain things I have mentioned. You would be included amongst that group.

Also for the sake of clarity, I'd like to point out that I've asked you to present your case. For the most part you've chosen not to

When you and others choose to ignore the information I've presented that lies at the core of my beliefs regarding how the "elite" operate it does not constitute me not presenting my case like you are claiming.

I've mentioned these things multiple times and not one person has bothered discussing them. I can't force any of you to discuss my reasoning.

though you did ask me to look at a piece of your information... I did so here. Is it your intention to not address or even acknowledge the points raised?

No, that is not my intention.

If I don't address a post you - or anyone else has made - within a day and a half time frame are you going to assume I will not address the post at any point afterwards?

Are you replacing what Raptor has identified as Argumentum Verbosum with a new tactic of Argumentum Avoidum? Just curious.

First off, I've addressed more questions and comments directed towards me than anyone in this thread. I am certainly not the one who's avoided anything.

Secondly, if you think me not replying to a post you or anyone else has made within 1-2 days is fair reason to claim I am avoiding something than so be it. It's an unreasonable expectation, especially since I don't even visit this site every day or even every other day anymore, but being unreasonable about things doesn't seem to be an issue for some.

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For the record, it's Bohemian Grove, not the Bohemian Club. And yes, there is a 40 foot stone Owl.

Your "records" are wrong. There is both the Bohemian Grove (a location), and a Bohemian Club (a group of people who gather at Bohemain Grove).

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1, just because a group meets in private (whether they are regular people, the elite, or world leaders) does not make them a secret society, nor does it mean anything sinister is going on. If you can't understand the basic human right to privacy, then give me your address, and I'll be glad to welcome myself into your home.

Totally off-base. But so be it. I am not here to change the minds of those who know in their heart they will never see things differently than they already do until the "proof" they seek is so crystal clear that they can't continue to deny it anymore (and even then it may take something more).

I do not gather in secret at my home. If I did so with a group of others, however, then yes, we would be forming are own "secret" society.

If you can't understand such things as simple as that than you will never understand the truths of how the "elite" operate.

2, I enjoy learning about "secret societies". Mainly, because learning about them means that they are NOT secret! The world cannot know the existence of a group if it is a secret group, otherwise, they are not a secret group.

What do you call a group that attempted to be secret only for their presence to slowly become public knowledge? The group formed as a secret society. They still attempt to keep secret their activities - some of which they still manage to do.

What you are doing is simply a matter of semantics.

And by the way, the overwhelming majority of the population still have no idea about Bohemain Grove or the Bohemain Club (which are both real as I stated in my previous post regarding you "records").

Yes, the Illuminati did exist. They don't anymore, and not one shed of FACTUAL evidence has come out to prove otherwise. Yes, there have been people's interpretations of possible evidence, but most is nothing more than wild speculation and paranoia.

Ah, yes, says you and everyone else who turns a blind eye to what the available information suggests is true.

I really don't care to call them the "Illuminati," which is something I have statee more than a couple times within this thread. So in that regard if you want to claim the "Illuminati" doesn't exist go right ahead. What they refer to themselves as is not the real issue, however, it is how the "elite" of the world conspire together as a means of serving their own self interests rather than those of the common good. As well as covering up their crimes.

3, The absolutely wonderful thing about a belief, is to believe it, you don't need proof. However, when you are trying to convince someone else that your belief is true (or correct), then you must provide something tangible to back up your position.

And I have done so. The issue is that what some clearly see as "tangible" (the symbolism prevalent around us and events in history which show the government, law enforcement, and media work together to cover up their crimes and mislead the general public about many things) gets turned into the doubters looking for any little bit of what they tell themselves is "reasonable" doubt as a means of ignoring what the information available truly indicates.

Otherwise, you are nothing more than one of those bible thumpers going door-to-door p***ing people off.

That is not true in the least. When I post about conspiracies in the conspiracy sections of the forum that in no way aligns with the comparision of a person knocking on someone's door to discuss anything (whether it be religion or selling cookies).

You are more like an atheist walking into a Christain church and then complaining that the people within the church are discussing their belief in God.

You knew what was going to be discussed before entering the chruch, so why did you enter it in the first place only to complain about people discussing their belief in God?

No one forced you to enter this thread. And it certainly doesn't equate to being your home or any other piece of property you may happen to own.

Edited by Left-Field
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You could have saved yourself a lot of typing, and me a lot of reading, by simply saying "I don't actually have any evidence, but if I did I don't believe you would accept it anyway."

I will respond however I so choose. If you can't be bothered to read my full responses then don't. I could tell you what I could whittle your responses down to every time you respond as well, but it would be rather pointless for the sake of this discussion.

You can't say that I haven't asked for it. I very clearly requested you to make your case. If you choose not to, that is up to you.

Yes, and I have very clearly stated numerous things that lie and the core of my reasoning regarding how it is the "elite" operate. I have mentioned these things no less than 3-5 times. You and others have completely ignored them.

If I present these things only for you and others to ignore them you can't justly reason that I have not "presented my case."

Furthermore, you have admitted that you do not take this subject seriously nor do you care to take a serious look into any of the information presented which stands in contrast to your pre-established beliefs (or disbeliefs if that is what you prefer to call them).

That being the case how can you expect me to really bother that much addressing you specifically when you've already admitted such things?

Why should I take the time to present worthwhile information to a person who has already admitted they won't bother looking into it as deeply as they should (if at all)?

A rising phoenix? I fail to see how you equate this to be the Lamen of Ordo Templi Orientis.

First of all, the Eye of Horus is notably missing from the triangle above the phoenix. Secondly, it's a freaking rising phoenix, not a descending dove. Third, there is no cross in the supposed chalice below. I suppose you could suggest that there are 'crosses' on either side of the phoenix in the crowd, but then it isn't exactly the Lamen of Ordo Templi Orientis is it?

Fourth, it isn't even a chalice at all, but rather the flaming Olympic cauldron. Fifth, even if it were supposed to be a chalice, the Lamen of Ordo Templi Orientis has a singular flame at the top, it isn't filled with burning flames like the Olympic cauldron. Sixth, where are the 24 rays which are supposed to be extending from the triangle with no Eye of Horus? Seventh, where is the heart shaped Host?

In short, you're trying to shoehorn an interpretation into this imagery which is completely inappropriate. It doesn't fit.

When this is the approach you and other doubters take to such things there really is no common ground to even bother attempting a reasonable discussion about the subject with you.

If you really don't pick up on the symbology than you are fooling and/or lying to yourself.

And like I said previously I am not posting in this thread to convince you (or others aligned with you) that my beliefs are facts. You have already made up your mind an nothing will change it, You know this as well as I do whether you will admit to it or not.

I post information regarding the subject as a means of explaining my beliefs, and so that those legitimately interested in the topic from a standpoint that doesn't fall in line with what the mainstream media, news outlets, and government present thing as can see things from a different angle and come to their own conclusions about the subject.

This thread has nearly 20,000 views. The overwhelming majority of them likely come from guests who aren't even members here and don't feel a need to share their thoughts on the subject whether they happen to lean towards my way of thought or are more aligned with yours.

This is no more symbolic of the Illuminati than a music video is. It doesn't fit at all.

But again, there is Illuminati symbolism throughout much of the music/entertainment industry. No matter how many times this is shown to you (and if you really want me specifically to get into that I will present the information which shows this to be the case) however you will not see it. You will deny it over and over again no matter what.

Again, you know this as well as I do whether you will admit to it or not.

What does it actually symbolize? Seems to me that it merely symbolizes the closing of the games. Nothing more.

It symbolizes what I've already told you it symbolizes - the 'Ordo Templi Orientis.'

Here's a simple article with a less sinister point of view if you're interested.

The fact you presented that article only shows how naive you are regarding what is being discussed within this thread.

Edited by Left-Field

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But again, there is Illuminati symbolism throughout much of the music/entertainment industry. No matter how many times this is shown to you (and if you really want me specifically to get into that I will present the information which shows this to be the case) however you will not see it. You will deny it over and over again no matter what.

Which, again, brings us back to the original request.

This "symbolisim" you speak of. Any evidence to support your belief that the "symbolisim" pertains to the "Illuminati" and ONLY the "Illuminati"?

This is what it literally boils down to.

As far as my Argumentum Verbosum description of your argument. You seem to overload your evidence of the exsistance of a "secret society" using tons of obscure situations and obscure "symbols" to warrant your beliefs.

Edited by RaptorBites

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I am certainly not the one who's avoided anything.

Hi Left-Field, thank you for your responses. I just want to let you know that I'm working on a response but I also have quite a bit going on right now so it may take some time.

Cheers.

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No one forced you to enter this thread. And it certainly doesn't equate to being your home or any other piece of property you may happen to own.

I'm going to start with this, and a bit later when I have more time, I will get back to the rest.

You missed my point completely. This has nothing to do with physically going someplace. It has to do with the message being delivered.

Both messages (from the bible thumpers) and you both lack the same thing - tangible proof. They use a book that has inaccuracies. You use recycled theories that are nothing more than supposition.

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Don't get me wrong i like the Olympics, and there are mysteries involving the "Torchbearer" that goes back to when this was established in the Berlin Olympics of 1936, since then every olympics has had alignments to Alnilam and Sirius regarding the Torchbearers, tomorrow i will start on this on my own thread that isn't on this forum, but of beliefs and religion forum.

Most secret societies do align to Sirius and Alnilam anyway so will be interesting data and research, we see the first statue of the torchbearer involved with olympics in a Nazi Castle involved in its strange religious beliefs, link below:-

http://2012forum.com...=6636&mode=view

Edited by monk 56

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First off, I do not necessarily believe in any conspiracy theory, I just want to state the information that's out there, mainly because I read nearly 20 pages of this debate with one user being subjected to barrages of questions and somewhat bullying behaviour including name calling.

Secondly, a conspiracy theory is just that, a theory because it cannot be proved so all those asking for proof do so knowing it's never going to happen.

I want to start off with a post I read asking what the point is of the pyramid with the all seeing eye and why it wasn't another shape used.

When you look at the goal of the illuminati as speculated, it is for new world order. A single government for the world. The pyramid has 13 steps before the eye at the top symbolizing 13 steps required before the last stone of the pyramid can be set. The eye if you like could be interpreted as a symbol of the one government.

Secondly, you need to look at the information out there on the illuminati. I may not be religious but clearly this stems from religion. The new world order theory comes from biblical prophecies that claim the illuminati are leading up to two witnesses, a false prophet and a beast who will use the impending economic crises in America and threat attacks on middle eastern countries to have people start to believe in a false prophet which is written through out many religious texts. The false prophet signals the return of the messiah and some people theorize that the role of the illuminati is to push new world order to bring closer the coming of a second messiah as 'prophesied' in many different religions.

Does this all make things seem more far fetched? Probably, especially when you tie in the theory of obamacare allowing a clause to have implants put into people which becomes 'the mark of the beast)s also signalling the messiah is coming (after all this new order, false prophet stuff.

If anyone is genuinely interested in reading about it, it's all out there. Believing is a different matter but some things are just interesting. It doesnt make people crazy or insane or anything else.

There's no point ripping my post apart either as I just don't really care. I just happen to come across this thread and felt one person needed someone to stick up for them rather than have everyone bash them for things they find interesting. Along with me feeling that the religious aspect of the illuminati has not been mentioned along with new world order and the ideas behind the symbolism of the pyramid.

Edited by fehnley
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First off, I do not necessarily believe in any conspiracy theory, I just want to state the information that's out there, mainly because I read nearly 20 pages of this debate with one user being subjected to barrages of questions and somewhat bullying behaviour including name calling.

Secondly, a conspiracy theory is just that, a theory because it cannot be proved so all those asking for proof do so knowing it's never going to happen.

I want to start off with a post I read asking what the point is of the pyramid with the all seeing eye and why it wasn't another shape used.

When you look at the goal of the illuminati as speculated, it is for new world order. A single government for the world. The pyramid has 13 steps before the eye at the top symbolizing 13 steps required before the last stone of the pyramid can be set. The eye if you like could be interpreted as a symbol of the one government.

Secondly, you need to look at the information out there on the illuminati. I may not be religious but clearly this stems from religion. The new world order theory comes from biblical prophecies that claim the illuminati are leading up to two witnesses, a false prophet and a beast who will use the impending economic crises in America and threat attacks on middle eastern countries to have people start to believe in a false prophet which is written through out many religious texts. The false prophet signals the return of the messiah and some people theorize that the role of the illuminati is to push new world order to bring closer the coming of a second messiah as 'prophesied' in many different religions.

Does this all make things seem more far fetched? Probably, especially when you tie in the theory of obamacare allowing a clause to have implants put into people which becomes 'the mark of the beast)s also signalling the messiah is coming (after all this new order, false prophet stuff.

If anyone is genuinely interested in reading about it, it's all out there. Believing is a different matter but some things are just interesting. It doesnt make people crazy or insane or anything else.

There's no point ripping my post apart either as I just don't really care. I just happen to come across this thread and felt one person needed someone to stick up for them rather than have everyone bash them for things they find interesting. Along with me feeling that the religious aspect of the illuminati has not been mentioned along with new world order and the ideas behind the symbolism of the pyramid.

Hi fehnley and welcome to UM. :)

Just to add a bit more to your pyramid definition, the pyramid can be used to represent a symbol of power as the one at the top is supported by the few below, and they are in turn supported by the many below them this goes on and on until the bottom row where the 'lowest class' support the whole structure and are kept in place through slavery, debt or ignorance.

The religious prophecies you mention are relevant to the thread but I do not understand you attaching it to America. There was no 'America' when these texts were written and America is does not represent the whole world, just a very small percentage of it. I would have thought a 'prophecy' of this kind if unfolding today would be more effective in India or China for example, that hold a much greater chunk of the worlds population or maybe aimed at a continent rather than an individual country.

Edited by Junior Chubb

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Thank you :)

My mention of America being involved is probably clouded due to a lot of the new world order thing being associated with this last US president stuff, Obama being the false messiah or whatever he is supposedly suppose to be. And that the economics and war threats contribute to the downfall of America in turn leading to the mark of the beast (these supposed implant things) which is part of this whole prophesied circle.

I think I read somewhere that the downfall of American from its greatness and influence was the catalyst if you like to these chain of.events. Perhaps a little off topic, my bad!

As for China, I've heard that the new elections are apparently more important that the recent US ones so in fact you have a point there for sure.

I think in terms of the new world.order it really depends who you see as the "antichrist" the false prophet etc and I'd imagine with the elections and Obama still being in power the conspiracies are rife with him being involved in it.

I guess you can't argue with the fact though that the Iran/Israel problems are nearing a war zone of which Russia and the US are most certainly going to get involved in. World war 3 theories anyone?

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I believe the 13 steps of the pyramid is also supposed to represent the 13 founding families of the illuminati. It then goes on to say they are 'reptiliqn' decendants which is a little :/

If you look at the names of these people and the 300 or so others allegedly involved you have 'rothchild' who controlled the price of gold for q long while and 'oppenheimer' (I think, off the top of my head, may be slightly wrong with that) the man who is currently at the.top of Apple (I'll have to get back to you on exactly what his name and role is)

The names are everywhere, but whether the illuminati still exists it's it's old or new form is a huge subject for discussion.

Edited by fehnley

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