Roswell: Two Crashes, Not One

[Space Commander Travis]

No, you do not have to draw a diagram, you asked a question and I answered it, simple as that. Is that not the appropriate response when asked a question?

I am a big fan of Lost Shamans Hypothesis because I cannot falsify it, and I did try. It fits in with every document from the time frame, and makes technical and mechanical sense. From the Twinning Memo to the GAO report, it fits in to every niche. Nothing else does so neatly. Nothing imaginative about it, and I must say, it's a bit rude of you to belittle the research Lost Shaman has done like that.

Look, I do not want to argue it with you, I really do not have the time for it, I was just pointing out that it does not fit in with the many recollections or documents from the time frame. It might be every bit as plausible as the ETH in many regards, but I think the Roswell tale is not the best place to "try out the new idea". There are many recollections from both sides, none accomodate robots. I was just pointing that out.

Ah, by "Robots" are you thinking in terms of R2D2 and C3P0 trundling about, is that the issue? No, I don't mean that the craft was crewed by Robots or anything like that (although the idea of a probe releasing smaller drones once it's reached its destination is one that is interesting), I mean that the craft itself may have been a robotic probe, either remotely piloted or probably more likely automated; incorporating a degree of Artifical Intelligernce perhaps.

I wasn't belittling Lost Shamans Hypothesis, by the way; believe me, "imaginative" is a compliment. I'm always pleased to see people taking new and imaginative ways of looking at things.

[Kludge808]

I wasn't belittling Lost Shamans Hypothesis, by the way; believe me, "imaginative" is a compliment. I'm always pleased to see people taking new and imaginative ways of looking at things.

Okay, I tried to find it and I can't. Could someone fill me in on what LS's hypothesis is please?

[Space Commander Travis]

Okay, I tried to find it and I can't. Could someone fill me in on what LS's hypothesis is please?

I'm sure someone would be able to tell you exactly, but from what I recall the gist of it is that the Roswell 'discovery' was set up by the USAF in order to throw a bit of meat to the media for them to chew on in order to keep them distracted so that the AF could get onw ith investigating the whole matter of UFOs in peace. Rather like Blue Book was to do later on, perhaps.

[PYak76]

My "Personal" take on Roswell Crash is; The 1st Official Release of "A Saucer Shaped craft crashed today in Roswell, New Mexico" type headline is probably the closest to the truth. As they didnt really have a system for covering up UFO crashes that was widely known as far as I can tell from investiagtions. To be perfectly honest I and no one else will ever truly know as our Govts are so obsessed with keeping anything approaching the truth from us, that in all my years I can't really tell.

Lets try and be scientific in a speculative way. If we take the facts; The Milky Way is a barred spiral galaxy 100,000–120,000 light-years in diameter containing 200–400 billion stars. It may contain at least as many planets, with an estimated 10 billion of those orbiting in the habitable zone of their parent stars.

But how many galaxies are there in the entire Universe? ... The most current estimates guess that there are 100 to 200 billion galaxies in the Known Observable Universe...as Im sure you'll all agree there are probable a lot of Habitable planets with intelligent life. By Intelligent I will keep that to Inter-Galactic civilizations, but I am quite sure a few of them have made this apparently impossible feat possible by now, so IMHO I am sure we do have visiting inter-galactic/inter-dimensional beings visiting or planet! As with conservative estimates we have 100 Billion Galaxies with 100 Billion Stars in each this makes a HUGE # of solar systems, surely thinking this way makes these possibilities (UFOs), a good possibility.

[TheMacGuffin]

But how many galaxies are there in the entire Universe? ... The most current estimates guess that there are 100 to 200 billion galaxies in the Known Observable Universe...as Im sure you'll all agree there are probable a lot of Habitable planets with intelligent life. By Intelligent I will keep that to Inter-Galactic civilizations, but I am quite sure a few of them have made this apparently impossible feat possible by now, so IMHO I am sure we do have visiting inter-galactic/inter-dimensional beings visiting or planet! As with conservative estimates we have 100 Billion Galaxies with 100 Billion Stars in each this makes a HUGE # of solar systems, surely thinking this way makes these possibilities (UFOs), a good possibility.

I think in a universe this gigantic and this old, literally anything is possible. There very well could be civilizations that are a million or a billion years ahead of ours, so to them finding this planet and visiting would be child's play. For all I know, they wouldn't even need a spaceship to do it. That's just our very limited thinking that they would need some kind of machine or device as we would understand it. They might also be able to take any form or appearance they desire.

Just think about how far science has advanced on earth in a few hundred years, then try to picture what would be possible for civilizations even a few hundred or a few thousand years ahead of ours. We can't--not really.

[badeskov]

I think in a universe this gigantic and this old, literally anything is possible. There very well could be civilizations that are a million or a billion years ahead of ours, so to them finding this planet and visiting would be child's play. For all I know, they wouldn't even need a spaceship to do it. That's just our very limited thinking that they would need some kind of machine or device as we would understand it. They might also be able to take any form or appearance they desire.

Just think about how far science has advanced on earth in a few hundred years, then try to picture what would be possible for civilizations even a few hundred or a few thousand years ahead of ours. We can't--not really.

Now picture that the speed of light is the ultimate barrier and that there are no means to get around that (i.e. wormholes etc.).

Cheers,

Badeskov

[TheMacGuffin]

Now picture that the speed of light is the ultimate barrier and that there are no means to get around that (i.e. wormholes etc.).

I have always doubted very much that would be the final word in science, although maybe it was in the 1950s. LOL

[1963]

Now picture that the speed of light is the ultimate barrier and that there are no means to get around that (i.e. wormholes etc.).

Cheers,

Badeskov

Which illustrates the limits of your mind!...

Imagination is more important than knowledge... Albert Einstein

US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)

I have always doubted very much that would be the final word in science, although maybe it was in the 1950s. LOL

And you will ultimately be proven correct my friend!

[badeskov]

I have always doubted very much that would be the final word in science, although maybe it was in the 1950s. LOL

We can always hope, but so far the speed of light limit rather stubbornly has prevailed. Maybe we can beat it, maybe we cannot. I certainly hope for the former, but wouldn't exclude the latter.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Edited August 29, 2012 by badeskov

[psyche101]

Not the person that I know. He just spends it on other hobbies and neglects his estate.

LOL, another stirling comeback.

Then he is the individual, and he sounds self centered. That would be his explanation.

You need to get out of the house and get some fresh air and sunshine. The world

isn't the internet and a book.

I am a tradie, and I grew up on a farm. I bet I have seen more sunshine already than you ever will. Not that there is anything wrong with the academic side of life, and I encourage anyone to pursue it to the best of their ability. I have lived in big cities and tiny country towns, I have worked from the equator to almost the Antarctic. And I have studied.

Maybe you should try reading a book in the sunshine? Not sure how telling you budget is why people let things deteriorate is associated with the Internet and study, perhaps you could enlighten us all? Your a skeptic hater aren't you?

[badeskov]

Which illustrates the limits of your mind!...

Imagination is more important than knowledge... Albert Einstein

US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)

Not at all, I can be as imaginative as the next person to the extent where science is still the determining factor.

And you will ultimately be proven correct my friend!

We can hope that you are correct.

Cheers,

Badeskov

[psyche101]

Okay, I tried to find it and I can't. Could someone fill me in on what LS's hypothesis is please?

This will be a help. LINK

[psyche101]

We all have off days ... even me.

Ahh, but you are not rude to people up front. Rye was. What goes around......

[psyche101]

Ah, by "Robots" are you thinking in terms of R2D2 and C3P0 trundling about, is that the issue? No, I don't mean that the craft was crewed by Robots or anything like that (although the idea of a probe releasing smaller drones once it's reached its destination is one that is interesting), I mean that the craft itself may have been a robotic probe, either remotely piloted or probably more likely automated; incorporating a degree of Artifical Intelligernce perhaps.

More like the Von Braun, Leo and Balboa on Darwin 4 in Alien Planet I was thinking. But I guess there is not really a parameter, just artificial life.

I wasn't belittling Lost Shamans Hypothesis, by the way; believe me, "imaginative" is a compliment. I'm always pleased to see people taking new and imaginative ways of looking at things.

It is not what I would call imaginative, some very good work as gone into it. Imaginative makes it sound like he made it up, when he didn't, he followed a paper trail.

[psyche101]

Just think about how far science has advanced on earth in a few hundred years, then try to picture what would be possible for civilizations even a few hundred or a few thousand years ahead of ours. We can't--not really.

I have never been able to work with that, whilst we have made some marvellous industrial strides forward, we still have limits. Everything does, it's just the way things are. Like what happens when you run 100 meters in .0001 of a second, where does one go from there? How does one better an absolute?

[psyche101]

Not at all, I can be as imaginative as the next person to the extent where science is still the determining factor.

We can hope that you are correct.

Cheers,

Badeskov

How ironic to use a phrase from the very man who determined the speed of light to pretend a faster speed is viable!

The mind boggles at times, really it does.

[psyche101]

I have always doubted very much that would be the final word in science, although maybe it was in the 1950s. LOL

I really do not understand why, why do we feel that we can propel items with mass faster than those without mass?

Edited August 29, 2012 by psyche101

[psyche101]

My "Personal" take on Roswell Crash is; The 1st Official Release of "A Saucer Shaped craft crashed today in Roswell, New Mexico" type headline is probably the closest to the truth. As they didnt really have a system for covering up UFO crashes that was widely known as far as I can tell from investiagtions. To be perfectly honest I and no one else will ever truly know as our Govts are so obsessed with keeping anything approaching the truth from us, that in all my years I can't really tell.

Lets try and be scientific in a speculative way. If we take the facts; The Milky Way is a barred spiral galaxy 100,000–120,000 light-years in diameter containing 200–400 billion stars. It may contain at least as many planets, with an estimated 10 billion of those orbiting in the habitable zone of their parent stars.

But how many galaxies are there in the entire Universe? ... The most current estimates guess that there are 100 to 200 billion galaxies in the Known Observable Universe...as Im sure you'll all agree there are probable a lot of Habitable planets with intelligent life. By Intelligent I will keep that to Inter-Galactic civilizations, but I am quite sure a few of them have made this apparently impossible feat possible by now, so IMHO I am sure we do have visiting inter-galactic/inter-dimensional beings visiting or planet! As with conservative estimates we have 100 Billion Galaxies with 100 Billion Stars in each this makes a HUGE # of solar systems, surely thinking this way makes these possibilities (UFOs), a good possibility.

It is reason for discussing Alien life, not alien life here. Another real world analogy for you. I am hoping you have heard of the Voyager program? The probes we sent out in the 70's. They are approaching the edge of our solar system just now. It will take a little more than 17,000 years to get one light year out from our solar system. 4 Light years and you can see proxima centauri, and no life there, the system is too young.

Where do you want to go next, and how many generations do you think it might take to get there? 1,000? 10,000? And that is travelling at a tidy 17 kilometers a second. Try doing that in the family wagon!

I would not call that viable travel.

[lost_shaman]

We can always hope, but so far the speed of light limit rather stubbornly has prevailed. Maybe we can beat it, maybe we cannot. I certainly hope for the former, but wouldn't exclude the latter.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Hey badeskov,

I'm not sure what you mean by "beat it"? As far as Humans or Alienz traveling around the Galaxy, beating the speed of light barrier is just a matter of having enough energy to travel near the speed of light where Time slows so drastically that you could go anywhere in the Galaxy within a Human lifetime.

[TheMacGuffin]

I really do not understand why, why do we feel that we can propel items with mass faster than those without mass?

My great grandmother went from the horse and buggy era to watching the Moon landings in 1969 in a single lifetime. In her day, no one would have imagined such things were possible, since they didn't even have telephones, computers or electric lights. Think of all the change that occurred in that very brief time, almost overnight, historically speaking.

I would be very hesitant to say what might be possible in 100 years or 1,000 years--just about anything, I suppose.

[TheMacGuffin]

I would not call that viable travel.

Neither would I. It's literally the first generation of space technology, the earliest possible technology we could have used to do anything out there. I doubt very much that it will be the last word in space technology, any more than the Model-T Ford was the last word in automobile travel.

[lost_shaman]

My "Personal" take on Roswell Crash is; The 1st Official Release of "A Saucer Shaped craft crashed today in Roswell, New Mexico" type headline is probably the closest to the truth. As they didnt really have a system for covering up UFO crashes that was widely known as far as I can tell from investiagtions. To be perfectly honest I and no one else will ever truly know as our Govts are so obsessed with keeping anything approaching the truth from us, that in all my years I can't really tell.

Sure they did! This was just after WWII and there were Counter Intelligence teams based out of Wright Field who were highly adept at recovering enemy aircraft very often in secret. The commander of Wright Field had ordered a secret investigation of the phenomena on July 2nd a week before these events. Then there is the GAO report that says most wire traffic at the time from RAAF was between them and Wright Field. We even know that the high Brass was thinking about recovering a "Disk" because none other than Gen. Ramey and his Intel Chief were being quoted in the papers during the late August to July 2nd time frame making jokes about the "Disks" but also wishing "someone would put salt on the tail of one of these Disks and catch it...".

So yeah they could have recovered something in Secret, but it's more likely they just made up they story to fool and embarrass the Press to the point they they wouldn't report these sightings as they had been so vigorously, and indeed that is exactly what happened for over a year as after these events the Press by-and-large stopped reporting on Flying Saucers.

[lost_shaman]

Neither would I. It's literally the first generation of space technology, the earliest possible technology we could have used to do anything out there. I doubt very much that it will be the last word in space technology, any more than the Model-T Ford was the last word in automobile travel.

I agree. Those Probes were designed to go fast enough to get out of the Solar system but also slow enough to study the interesting things out there like the Planets and their Moons. Sure they are the fastest probes we've sent out so far, but that gets to much milage IMO. If we wanted to send a Probe just to travel interstellar space it would be designed right off the 'bat' to travel much, much faster than the Voyager probes.

[psyche101]

Hey badeskov,

I'm not sure what you mean by "beat it"? As far as Humans or Alienz traveling around the Galaxy, beating the speed of light barrier is just a matter of having enough energy to travel near the speed of light where Time slows so drastically that you could go anywhere in the Galaxy within a Human lifetime.

Gidday LS

Interesting take as always mate. I wonder what a viable limit is? If we travel at c, then we need infinite energy and mass, so at 99% of c, the demand would still be unimaginable by our standards wouldn't they? 99% of infinite is quite a bit I imagine?

Cheers.

[psyche101]

I agree. Those Probes were designed to go fast enough to get out of the Solar system but also slow enough to study the interesting things out there like the Planets and their Moons. Sure they are the fastest probes we've sent out so far, but that gets to much milage IMO. If we wanted to send a Probe just to travel interstellar space it would be designed right off the 'bat' to travel much, much faster than the Voyager probes.

Like Project Daedalus Even it was designed to attain 12% of light speed and then shut of and cruise for another 46 years. It would have made it to Barnards star in 50 years. Still quite a wait for information.

Edited August 29, 2012 by psyche101