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Harsh86_Patel

[Merged] Gobekli Tepe

327 posts in this topic

I think you read that wrong: the article says "migrated FROM the ancient Anatolian region of present-day southern Turkey". They must have went south.

What I like is that connection with Zoroastrianism. Like I said a while back, maybe the impossible early date of ca. 6200 BC for the origin of that cult - according to some classical writers - is right after all.

http://books.google....lutarch&f=false

.

well, southwest ? some sites are north ot the Med. but gobekli , on the turkish /syrian border, is as much east .. as north?

post-86645-0-13167900-1349548838_thumb.j post-86645-0-70379200-1349548880_thumb.j

but , ya any links with Zoroastrianism would be interesting too. They both like vultures, that's about all i know :D

Edited by lightly

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well, southwest ? some sites are north ot the Med. but gobekli , on the turkish /syrian border, is as much east .. as north?

post-86645-0-13167900-1349548838_thumb.j post-86645-0-70379200-1349548880_thumb.j

but , ya any links with Zoroastrianism would be interesting too. They both like vultures, that's about all i know :D

Well, EVERYWHERE:

post-18246-0-67105800-1349550455_thumb.j

Add to that the (still disputed) theory that Anatolia was the place of origin of IE, and a picture is slowly evolving.

And the Zoroastrian religion may only be a very diluted form of what the ancient Anatolians believed in.

But then we have the fact that Zoroastrianism is patriarchal, or better, has a Supreme God, not a Goddess, while the Anatolians are supposed to have venerated a Mother Goddess.

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These bag shapes at the top here, they intrigue me.

turkey3.jpg

I'm sure I've seen these before, on some palette or such from Egypt..? I know there is a purse carrying Assyrian God but the way these 3 'bags' are, does anyone recognise them from something else?

Also, on this website here: http://www.earthfile...ategory=Science you can see a picture of the complete 'man', with the duck 'altar' at the base.

well, here are some similar looking objects...

post-86645-0-08157800-1349550691_thumb.j

and, for fun... a container toting olmec serpent rider post-86645-0-09901000-1349550844_thumb.j

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Ove, when I saw you avatar, I had to think of those statues/figurines found on the Cyclades:

Cycladic%20figurines.jpg

And they are of a much later time.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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(Lightly, why is it that when I watch the index page, I see the title of the thread you posted in on top of your username?? UM has thousands of members, but it only happens with you, lol)

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i haven't a clue Abramelin! i guess i'm just special. :)

now i wish i could get this image to post!!!**!

Edited by lightly

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just for more fun... i love the striking similarity in these two scenes.

post-86645-0-59179700-1349552330_thumb.j

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Well, EVERYWHERE:

post-18246-0-67105800-1349550455_thumb.j

Add to that the (still disputed) theory that Anatolia was the place of origin of IE, and a picture is slowly evolving.

And the Zoroastrian religion may only be a very diluted form of what the ancient Anatolians believed in.

But then we have the fact that Zoroastrianism is patriarchal, or better, has a Supreme God, not a Goddess, while the Anatolians are supposed to have venerated a Mother Goddess.

Perhaps not as disputed as it once was:

There are two competing hypotheses for the origin of the Indo-European language family. The conventional view places the homeland in the Pontic steppes about 6000 years ago. An alternative hypothesis claims that the languages spread from Anatolia with the expansion of farming 8000 to 9500 years ago. We used Bayesian phylogeographic approaches, together with basic vocabulary data from 103 ancient and contemporary Indo-European languages, to explicitly model the expansion of the family and test these hypotheses. We found decisive support for an Anatolian origin over a steppe origin. Both the inferred timing and root location of the Indo-European language trees fit with an agricultural expansion from Anatolia beginning 8000 to 9500 years ago. These results highlight the critical role that phylogeographic inference can play in resolving debates about human prehistory.

http://www.sciencema...y=9/I0UU0.eTrdQ

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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From what I have read here and there, Cormac, their Bayesian statistics are somewhat flawed.

There was a person posting on the Historum board who didn't agree with the theory, based on his knowledge of linguistics.

And from the looks of it, he appeared to me as someone knowing what he was talking about.

I'll try to find that post/thread.

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Found it:

http://www.historum....tml#post1192176

And read on ("Midas").

("Vrank Bouleen" is me, btw; it's an anagram of my true name)

.

Edited by Abramelin

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just for more fun... i love the striking similarity in these two scenes.

post-86645-0-59179700-1349552330_thumb.j

Men with feathers (bird men) and baskets. What does the scene represent, lightly ?

http://upload.wikime...r_Sharrukin.jpg

turkey3.jpg

"bird man" with V neck in Gobekli Tepe

Edited by Ove

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Midas:

"This is just a revival of the Renfrew hypothesis. There's a severe problem with the glottochronology of that theory, however some seem to insist even if that math is wrong.

For example, since obviously the author seems confused, how does a Bayesian phylogeographic analysis explain the fact that for 4000 years PIE remained unchanged in Anatolia? You all remember how fast English changed in 200 years and that Icelandic hold the record of language change resistance with only 700 hundred years? Isn't 4000 years damn much for a language being static? Why are there so few IE shared words that followed common development between Greek and IE Anatolian languages? They were litterarly neighbours weren't they? Why does Hittite show archaisms that lead to an early split up, while Armenian shows it split later?"

And read on.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Found it:

http://www.historum....tml#post1192176

And read on ("Midas").

("Vrank Bouleen" is me, btw; it's an anagram of my true name)

.

He has an interesting take on the situation, I'll give that to him.

cormac

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I don't know .. i wish i knew what both scenes represent. What do you say, or think?

... i just noticed the V on the neck of the bird on the column ,above, that the puzzler posted.

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(Lightly, why is it that when I watch the index page, I see the title of the thread you posted in on top of your username?? UM has thousands of members, but it only happens with you, lol)

Unusual. I'm not seeing it on my end. Is your computer possessed, Abe?

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The temples of Gobekli Tepe no where resemble the steps, latters or mountain tops of the Tibetan sky-burials

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To me the baskets are of a gathering of animals and food, the points or arrows are what they are pointing to.

turkey3.jpg

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If these temples were of hunters ,their main concern was for food.

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hunter gatherer groups roam around in extended families or clans, the womenfolk often make camp and gather while the men go off in groups to hunt.

The roamings of groups engaged in primitive farming is less wide, and spots are revisited seasonally.

on special occasions these clans come together at a meeting-spot, to find partners, to compete, to trade, to fight, to dance, to get off their heads.

lots of ritual elements are found...to keep order, to define identity, to honour spirits etc.

although the throng can cover a wide area, a central focal point of greater importance (elders/religion/champions) is marked.

As the culture becomes more sedentry, and complex, so do these central places.

edit to add, the baskets could be harvesting baskets, used to harvest grain and berries. They are brushed quickly through bushes, or heads of grain, and most of the berries, grain are scooped into the basket.....much quicker and more efficient than picking by hand....this requires a handle like those pictured to protect the hand, and for ease of use.

....like a leather or bark bag, but open at one side.

Edited by The Gremlin

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turkey3.jpg

Gremlin if you looked at the baskets there are animals going into them.

Edited by docyabut2

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turkey3.jpg

Gremlin if you looked at the baskets there are animals going into them.

versatile baskets, can keep your chicken fresh too.....they would only be completely closed/stitched along the left side (using the pic above) the top and right would be open, perhaps sealable with a catch or tie.

Im trying to find a vid that demonstrates what i mean.

modern berry pickers are a more specialised (less versatile) version of what i mean....

22752_2.jpg

Imagine one of these crossed with a thick leather game-bag.

Im sure ive seen Australian aborigines using them, amongst others.

Edited by The Gremlin

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There are three sets of hands on the statue, one of the bird god, the hands of the mother who is giving birth and the last is of the baby`s.

GobT_totem2.jpg

Edited by docyabut2

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I don't know .. i wish i knew what both scenes represent. What do you say, or think?

Read this here.

...it seems clear that the bucket and cone were associated with purification, for they are known respectively as banduddu (bucket) and, significantly, mullilu (purifier)...

From "Gods, Demons and Spirits of Ancient Mesopotamia," by Jeremy Black and Anthony Green.

Those two fellows are very well known in certain (small) circles.

The passage linked above refers to the Assyrian use of the symbol. I believe the figure in the link provided by Ove is Assyrian. All their figures look squat and muscled up.

The same iconography, however, appears in Babylonian and Sumerian works. I've read that in those cases, it is thought that the Apkallus holding the cone and bucket are actually providing fertility. You sometimes see these Apkallu (who later turned into what we now call genies in Islam and angels in Judeo-Christian, but started out as the "seven Sages" of Sumerian myth - sent here by Anu to teach us) anointing a human figure, invariably a king. In those, it's interpreted as the Apkallus backing up the king's claim that it is he that provides the fertility, through agents of Isis, or Ishtar, (IIRC) to the crops in the fields.

Harte

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