Iran Nuclear Program: U.S. Believes

[+and-then]

There is an excellent Christian moral philosophy book called "Dancing to Armageddon" about the corrosive effects ancient Biblical myths on people perceptions about their duty for stewardship of the Earth.

You should drop all the Mythical Biblical Mumbo Jumbo and follow Jesus' actual message which was to "Love thy Neighbour". If all Christians did the same we would all be in a much better place.

Br Cornelius

IOW take that part of the message you like and leave the rest? I didn't write it brutha. Since you feel it's mumbo jumbo then don't worry about it...I'm sure an exception will be made in your case.... whatever....

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

This is just a blog piece but it sets out how prominent Evangelicals want a war to break out in the Middle East so that Biblical prophecy can be forfilled;

http://www.washingto...ainst-iran.html

It points to why we should be very distrustful of any moves made against Iran. This is why Christian fundamentalists scare the **** out of me. I saw a BBC documentary (Louis Theroux) following evangelical Americans on a bus tour of the Israel, where the tourists openly expressed the opinion that Israel must hold all of the territory promised in the Bible and that Israel would all be wiped out as a precursor to the return of the Messiah.

A documentary laying out the apocalyptic beliefs of evangelicals;

Crazy Crazy Crazy

Br Cornelius

Kind of Scary,No wonder the Iranians want Nukes.....

[Guest]

The part of the Bible concerning Jesus is relatively small and essentially contains the message "Love thy Neighbour". The rest of the Bible was cobbled together by the early church and has little to do with what Jesus was actually supposed to have said. As I said - dump the mumbo jumbo - it might help you reset your faulty moral compass.

I neither need or want an exception, and cannot imagine where one would come from.

Br Cornelius

Edited August 12, 2012 by Guest

[+and-then]

Kind of Scary,No wonder the Iranians want Nukes.....

No...shaddow....the Iranians want nukes (the nutjob leaders anyway) so they can actually DO what this documentary implies that evangelicals want - to "hasten the coming" of the Mahdi or in our case Christ. The difference is that there is NO such doctrine in the Church and if you hear a "Christian" utter one then they are deceived and in a very small minority. The "Twelvers" of Shia Islam are instructed to create chaos, and the statement in the Qur'an is that the last day CANNOT come unless the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them. Can you think of a better way to create chaos on a global scale than to detonate a nuke? These guys are lumping all religions who believe in an end time scenario together. And since I believe it is true that Christ will return I take seriously the lies being spread to sow fear and confusion among those who do not understand.

[Coffey]

So by believing in the Bible and what it says, Christians are somehow causing the problems in the M.E.? Just by believing and telling others... that's pretty impressive. This documentary is interesting and I have no doubt that some Christians are intimately involved in industries that could push some agenda. But the numbers don't work. Most Christians are not involved in such things. The thing that scares people like Br C and yourself is the mere possibility that at some point you may lose control over your life and your will. The sad thing is that this control you mourn is only an illusion anyhow. Later today the phone could ring and crush your life with horrible personal news (God forbid it). A news report of a major war breaking out... a flu or some other plague that there is no cure for might flare in your area. THIS is the reality of life. These people have a belief system that differs from your's but it shouldn't threaten you - it should encourage you if you really want hope for a better future. Yes, the world is descending into a great darkness but that darkness is man made. Not caused by God. It would happen anyway. He offers hope for a peace beyond what we have been capable of providing ourselves.

The gloom and doom these people are speaking of is not imaginary - unless you don't believe the Bible. And if you don't believe the Bible then relax...no problem, right? What I hear in your words is a desperate attempt to find a human element to blame for what's coming. So you choose to blame the messengers. It doesn't help but you aren't the first to try it.

I didn't read past that cause you completely misread what I said.

That Documentary is scary as hell. To think people believe that garbage, it's them making it come true. Not some work of "god".

See the making it, part... I meant through US/Israeli government etc putting things in place...

You know like coaxing people into war etc.

[+and-then]

I didn't read past that cause you completely misread what I said.

See the making it, part... I meant through US/Israeli government etc putting things in place...

You know like coaxing people into war etc.

The US AND Israeli governments are both secular. No matter what garbage is spoken here. Bush was accused of being evangelical and it simply wasn't true. Netanyahu has an eye to history, yes. But he is not even Orthodox. The reasoning behind these wars has little to do with religion. But I think they have everything to do with prophecy.

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

The US AND Israeli governments are both secular. No matter what garbage is spoken here. Bush was accused of being evangelical and it simply wasn't true. Netanyahu has an eye to history, yes. But he is not even Orthodox. The reasoning behind these wars has little to do with religion. But I think they have everything to do with prophecy.

All this so Jesus can walk through the ashes of his followers.....

[Mr.United_Nations]

I say Bigfoot is behind this

[+and-then]

All this so Jesus can walk through the ashes of his followers.....

What an odd thing to say. Whatever makes you think the ashes will be of His followers?

[SteveBronfman]

"The United States still believes that Iran is not on the verge of having a nuclear weapon and that Tehran has not made a decision to pursue one, U.S. officials said on Thursday."

Weren't you arguing that American didn't find any WMDs in Iraq on another thread? If not sorry, but if so, then how is it you trust US intelligence agencies about this?

[Guest]

"The United States still believes that Iran is not on the verge of having a nuclear weapon and that Tehran has not made a decision to pursue one, U.S. officials said on Thursday."

Weren't you arguing that American didn't find any WMDs in Iraq on another thread? If not sorry, but if so, then how is it you trust US intelligence agencies about this?

The US intelligence agency clearly informed the administration that there were no WMD. The administration told the agency to "go away and find the evidence". The British intelligence agency was used as the fall guy and created the famous "SEXED UP" version of the report on missiles capable of reaching America.

In that case the intelligence agencies did their job correctly - until interfered with.

Br Cornelius

[ExpandMyMind]

"The United States still believes that Iran is not on the verge of having a nuclear weapon and that Tehran has not made a decision to pursue one, U.S. officials said on Thursday."

Weren't you arguing that American didn't find any WMDs in Iraq on another thread? If not sorry, but if so, then how is it you trust US intelligence agencies about this?

Because it is consistent with what other intelligence agencies around the world say, including Israeli.

Iran undecided on nuclear bomb - Israel military chief

The head of the Israeli military has said he does not think Iran will develop nuclear weapons.

Chief of Staff Lt Gen Benny Gantz made the statement in aninterview with the Israeli newspaper, Haaretz.

He said Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, had not yet made the final decision whether to build a nuclear bomb.

"In his interview with Haaretz, Benny Gantz takes care to repeat a point made on previous occasions this year by a number of Israeli and US intelligence officials: Iran has not yet made the decision to make actual nuclear weapons.

The IDF Chief of Staff even goes one step further with the assessment that he does not think that Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei will take this final step."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-17837768

When a government's clear agenda is to propagate one claim, and yet their intelligence communities and military are not spouting the same propaganda, then we KNOW the government is lying.

Edited August 14, 2012 by ExpandMyMind

[+and-then]

Because it is consistent with what other intelligence agencies around the world say, including Israeli.

Iran undecided on nuclear bomb - Israel military chief

The head of the Israeli military has said he does not think Iran will develop nuclear weapons.

Chief of Staff Lt Gen Benny Gantz made the statement in aninterview with the Israeli newspaper, Haaretz.

He said Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, had not yet made the final decision whether to build a nuclear bomb.

"In his interview with Haaretz, Benny Gantz takes care to repeat a point made on previous occasions this year by a number of Israeli and US intelligence officials: Iran has not yet made the decision to make actual nuclear weapons.

The IDF Chief of Staff even goes one step further with the assessment that he does not think that Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei will take this final step."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-17837768

When a government's clear agenda is to propagate one claim, and yet their intelligence communities and military are not spouting the same propaganda, then we KNOW the government is lying.

The same is true of the WMD claims of the time. There was near unanimity in world capitols. Arguing over whether Iran wants a nuclear weapon is infantile at this point. No nation goes through the contortions Iran is subjecting itself to for something like the right to nuclear electricity generation. So the issue really is who supports their right to be armed with a nuke and who does not. I believe they are way past the point of being stopped now. I do not think Israel will attack alone, though they might risk America's wrath on this if Netanyahu is actually as concerned as he says he is. I think a person who believes that an Iranian bomb is either a good OR a neutral element in M.E. regional stability is foolish. It WILL further destabilize the most unstable place on earth. War WILL follow at some point. The world COULD stop this but is choosing not to. Oh, and all that Bible prophecy stuff about the region? Just nonsense from some magical sky daddy. Nothing to see here...move along.

[ExpandMyMind]

And then, it is impossible to take your posts seriously when you hold your biased views due to the fact you think Armageddon is coming with Muslims being the ones to start it to bring in a Calaphate. This is where your reasoning comes from.

[+and-then]

And then, it is impossible to take your posts seriously when you hold your biased views due to the fact you think Armageddon is coming with Muslims being the ones to start it to bring in a Calaphate. This is where your reasoning comes from.

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it, no problems here. For the record though, "Armageddon" is a very specific battle and happens at a specific time.The conflicts I see happening in short order in the M.E. are not this battle. These are just the plain old man hating man kind. And Ex you are so invested in your own worldview that God Himself could appear and you'd ask for ID...... so spend your time being serious about whatever you like. It really doesn't matter to anyone other than yourself.

[buckskin scout]

And then, it is impossible to take your posts seriously when you hold your biased views due to the fact you think Armageddon is coming with Muslims being the ones to start it to bring in a Calaphate. This is where your reasoning comes from.

Christian Zionists dont care what amount of human suffering and oppression of the poor they fanatically condone and approve just in order to see the return of Jesus upon Jerusalem. But, hey, Matthew 7:21-23, Luke 10:30-37, Luke 18:8-14, .

[+and-then]

Christian Zionists dont care what amount of human suffering and oppression of the poor they fanatically condone and approve just in order to see the return of Jesus upon Jerusalem. But, hey, Matthew 7:21-23, Luke 10:30-37, Luke 18:8-14, .

Wrong again, Chuckles. We simply recognize that what is happening was meant to happen and all the flailing against it in the world will not change that. Quote your version of faith all you want, the proof is in what situation exists on the ground. It would not be so if it were against God's will. But you seem to know better so rock on. After the next war maybe you can come up with even more reams of useless info explaining why the Jews shouldn't be sitting on even more land.

[buckskin scout]

Wrong again, Chuckles. We simply recognize that what is happening was meant to happen and all the flailing against it in the world will not change that. Quote your version of faith all you want, the proof is in what situation exists on the ground. It would not be so if it were against God's will. But you seem to know better so rock on. After the next war maybe you can come up with even more reams of useless info explaining why the Jews shouldn't be sitting on even more land.

The Canaanites nations stood for 430 years before the fullness of their sins.

Bull, because the Kingdom of Israel stood for over 200 years before the Assyrians took them and forever removed their Hebrew identity.

The Kingdom of Judea stood for 377 years before the Babylonians took them captive.

The Kingdom of the Hasmonean stood for 77 years before they fell under Roman rule and the Edomite Herod the Great was raised as their king.

The Nation of Israel has stood for approximately 64 years now.

[+and-then]

The Canaanites nations stood for 430 years before the fullness of their sins.

Bull, because the Kingdom of Israel stood for over 200 years before the Assyrians took them and forever removed their Hebrew identity.

The Kingdom of Judea stood for 377 years before the Babylonians took them captive.

The Kingdom of the Hasmonean stood for 77 years before they fell under Roman rule and the Edomite Herod the Great was raised as their king.

The Nation of Israel has stood for approximately 64 years now.

And that changes my point how? God told them He would punish them for their sin. He did it. He told them He would regather them, never to be dispersed again, He has. You won't even admit the evidence of your own senses so what is anyone else supposed to do to change your bigotry? Hate who you will but don't think it's with impunity.

[buckskin scout]

And that changes my point how? God told them He would punish them for their sin. He did it. He told them He would regather them, never to be dispersed again, He has. You won't even admit the evidence of your own senses so what is anyone else supposed to do to change your bigotry? Hate who you will but don't think it's with impunity.

Call it what you will. It is not hate, the only bigotry I have is towards the western bigotry the Palestinians suffer and how Israeli propaganda machine has succeeded in lulling western minds into sleep, into complacency and indifference. Turn about is fairplay, you are a bigot against the Palestinians. How about that? I dont believe you have a beating pulse towards any Palestinian, your heart is dead towards them, your heart is stone.

But what if your mother lived in the Gaza Strip, or lived in the West Bank, or in a refugee camp? Or was one of Israel's internally displaced? What if that was your father? What if that was your brothers and sisters? What that was your children? Do you realize how hopeless you'd be to help any of them due to the discriminatory laws of Israel and the occupation? Absolutely powerless. I want to change that for the Palestinians. Because they could be my mother, my father, my siblings.

Edited August 15, 2012 by dside

[+and-then]

Call it what you will. It is not hate, the only bigotry I have is towards the western bigotry the Palestinians suffer and how Israeli propaganda machine has succeeded in lulling western minds into sleep, into complacency and indifference. Turn about is fairplay, you are a bigot against the Palestinians. How about that? I dont believe you have a beating pulse towards any Palestinian, your heart is dead towards them, your heart is stone.

But what if your mother lived in the Gaza Strip, or lived in the West Bank, or in a refugee camp? Or was one of Israel's internally displaced? What if that was your father? What if that was your brothers and sisters? What that was your children? Do you realize how hopeless you'd be to help any of them due to the discriminatory laws of Israel and the occupation? Absolutely powerless. I want to change that for the Palestinians. Because they could be my mother, my father, my siblings.

If the Palestinians were willing to have peace they could have a State and security. Their own unending hate causes most of their woes. This is truth. I do not choose to support a people who make it their business to destroy every Jew on earth..just for being a Jew. If that makes me a bigot then okay.

[buckskin scout]

If the Palestinians were willing to have peace they could have a State and security. Their own unending hate causes most of their woes. This is truth. I do not choose to support a people who make it their business to destroy every Jew on earth..just for being a Jew. If that makes me a bigot then okay.

No, the issue is land dispossession, expulsions, occupation, collective punishment, restricted movement, apartheid walls and several hundred checkpoints, house evictions and demolitions, assassinations, discriminatory laws, erased history, destruction of "unrecognized" villages, settler violence, inhumane arrests and convictions, illegal torture, etc.

Basically Israel has turned life for the modern Palestinians into the world's largest prison... the modern state of Israel resembles something from the visions of George Orwell, it is not the utopian society the earliest Zionist wishy-washy dreamt up originally, but has all the markings of a dystopian society. This cant be how God envisioned Israel. This is a nightmare!

And anyone that denounces this government or criticizes it is called a anti-semite by the zealous Zionists and their sympathezers (truly an oxymoron seeing that the Palestinians are semites).

[+and-then]

No, the issue is land dispossession, expulsions, occupation, collective punishment, restricted movement, apartheid walls and several hundred checkpoints, house evictions and demolitions, assassinations, discriminatory laws, erased history, destruction of "unrecognized" villages, settler violence, inhumane arrests and convictions, illegal torture, etc.

Basically Israel has turned life for the modern Palestinians into the world's largest prison... the modern state of Israel resembles something from the visions of George Orwell, it is not the utopian society the earliest Zionist wishy-washy dreamt up originally, but has all the markings of a dystopian society. This cant be how God envisioned Israel. This is a nightmare!

And anyone that denounces this government or criticizes it is called a anti-semite by the zealous Zionists and their sympathezers (truly an oxymoron seeing that the Palestinians are semites).

I don't recall ever calling you an anti semite. In fact that phrase is RARE in my vocabulary. I said you were an anti Israel/Jewish BIGOT. Because I believe that you are. And I also have grown very weary of the endless argument. Believe what makes you feel justified.

[buckskin scout]

I don't recall ever calling you an anti semite. In fact that phrase is RARE in my vocabulary. I said you were an anti Israel/Jewish BIGOT. Because I believe that you are. And I also have grown very weary of the endless argument. Believe what makes you feel justified.

Zionism is not Judaism. And the state of Israel has a heineous history. It sickens me to the core.

Back to the subject at hand, it was Israel and their Prime Minister Golda Meir's threat to use nuclear weapons during the 1973 war that prompted the US to launch Operation Nickel Grass. That same war consequently due to a Soviet threat to intervene against the Israelis would lead the US to put its forces on nuclear alert.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/06/opinion/the-last-nuclear-moment.html

So we've been here twice before during one single war.

[ExpandMyMind]

I don't recall ever calling you an anti semite. In fact that phrase is RARE in my vocabulary. I said you were an anti Israel/Jewish BIGOT.

Anti Jewish and anti semitic mean the same thing when used in the context of your post.