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Ben Masada

The Only Way to Escape Hell

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So Ben, were the apostles Christians? The word Christian means follower of Christ. Were they not followers? How about when He said, "Come follow me."

No, Lozaleibou, Jesus never had a Christian for an apostle. Christians did not exist at Jesus' time. They came about with Paul 35 years after Jesus had been gone. (Acts 11:26) Christian, by definition, is the person who believes that Jesus was Christ, which in Greek means Messiah, and it was fabricated by Paul, as he confessed to his disciple Timothy himself. (2 Tim. 2:8) The Nazarenes yes, they were followers of Jesus. But they were called Nazarenes on behalf of Jesus of Nazareth. (Acts 24:5)

Ben

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Was Peter not a Jew and a Christian? Andrew? Matthew? James? John? And you already said that Paul was a Christian, but we already know he was a Jew by birth. Is that not them being both?

Yes, Paul was a Christian but not Peter, Andrew, Matthew, James or John. Paul was born Jewish, a Hellenistic Jew, but he lost his Jewishness when he founded a religion against Jewish Theology. There is more than one way for a Jew to lose his Jewish identity. And to adopt a religion not in tune with Judaism is one of the reasons. There is no such a thing as a Christian-Jew or a Jewish-Christian. One is either a Jew or a Christian.

Ben

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Well according to the main religions I'm going to hell but I don't mind as there are a few people down there I would like to kick the sh1t out of. :devil:

Not according to Judaism. I mean, if the idea of hell here is the Christian one.

Ben

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This discourse is interesting because it’s a microcosm of human history. In the days when superstition and legends were regarded as truth, the universe and everything in it was created by a supreme being.

In Greek tradition, the Earth created the sky. The Rig Veda tales expanded on that and had the Earth and sky creating the gods. Babylonian accounts are those that probably align best with modern science since it has a planet (where the astroid belt is) being destroyed and part of it becoming the Earth. Egyptians had a goose and gander creating an egg that became the sun. . . .

And then came the Bible story, told twice in Genesis for emphasis, with its elements well known to all.

Man has progressed to the point that his theories are now tested and verified or rejected. He is moving forward toward understanding his universe and all that’s in it. Unfortunately, some people have been left behind, still clinging to mythology, legends and imagination.

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Physical laws (of nature) don't explain the creation of the universe. The physics of the very large does not agree with the physics of the very small. Until we prove a unifying theory from the competing theories out there or another one we haven't even dreamed of yet, physics will be as far away from "simple" as we can get. We don't know the nature of the creator, whether it's a higher sentient being or whether it's a mindless event brought about by some unknown cause. In my opinion, all theories should be entertained without all the self-assured squabbles over one another's beliefs.

The craziest ideas can sometimes reveal a wrinkle of truth when that truth is stubbornly hard to find. Brainstorming doesn't discourage wild and loose thinking for that reason.

Is the earth perfect? On a relative basis compared to anything else out there we know of, hell yeah.

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Earth's perfect for the life that lives on it, other planets could be said to be perfect in their own ways, geographically, meteorologically, etc. Life shouldn't be seen as some special gift that the universe gave 'birth' to or a special created being , it's just a by product of the mechanics of the universe. But someone will argue 'can you prove that it's not'? Of course I can't, that's not my point. We've displaced ourselves many times from special places in the universe, who's to say life is this perfect thing? It's not, especially if you look around at the way we wantonly destroy the planet.

Edited by Hasina
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This discourse is interesting because it’s a microcosm of human history. In the days when superstition and legends were regarded as truth, the universe and everything in it was created by a supreme being.

In Greek tradition, the Earth created the sky. The Rig Veda tales expanded on that and had the Earth and sky creating the gods. Babylonian accounts are those that probably align best with modern science since it has a planet (where the astroid belt is) being destroyed and part of it becoming the Earth. Egyptians had a goose and gander creating an egg that became the sun. . . .

And then came the Bible story, told twice in Genesis for emphasis, with its elements well known to all.

Man has progressed to the point that his theories are now tested and verified or rejected. He is moving forward toward understanding his universe and all that’s in it. Unfortunately, some people have been left behind, still clinging to mythology, legends and imagination.

Well, we have scored a victory in 1822 when the theory of the big bang was formulated. Till then, and since the time of Aristotle, the universe was believed to be eternal; without beginning and without end. Now, they have verified that the universe did have a beginning after all with the big bang. They haven't even credited the Bible for having been telling this for thousands of years. (Gen. 1:1)

Ben

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The Big Bang's not proven, just the best supported theory.

Edited by Hasina

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All theories of anthropic reasoning should be entertained without any self-assured long-winded op-eds that libel and lambast someone else's preferred theory just because it's different from our own. We're still figuring out the nature of the universe and imho we shouldn't compensate for that fact with big words and excessive word counts that seek to promote our own beliefs over others'.

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Well, we have scored a victory in 1822 when the theory of the big bang was formulated. Till then, and since the time of Aristotle, the universe was believed to be eternal; without beginning and without end. Now, they have verified that the universe did have a beginning after all with the big bang. They haven't even credited the Bible for having been telling this for thousands of years. (Gen. 1:1)

Ben

When you have a tale told in such vague terms as we find in Genesis, any later discovery can be made to fit. The problem is that it has to be "made" to fit, it doesn't do it on its own.

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God first

thanks Ben Masada

Hell is in the grave Christ even die we all die

the key is to evolve into a creature not like we are now

to changed into some thing other than what we are

that is the new birth evoling or being born from flesh unto a god like creature

that the truth

with love and a holy kiss Roy

Edited by Roy Perry

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The Big Bang's not proven, just the best supported theory.

Although the big bang has not been proven, it means a kind of partial victory for the Bible that has been saying for thousands of years that the universe had a beginning. Since Aristotle and until Lamartre in 1822, when the theory of the big bang was built, it was believed that the universe was without a beginning. Eternal, that is. That it had always been there. But with the theory of the big bang, scientists in general and cosmologists in particular had to change their views about the eternal existence of the universe to the opinion that it did have a beginning after all.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada
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Although the big bang has not been proven, it means a kind of partial victory for the Bible that has been saying for thousands of years that the universe had a beginning. Since Aristotle and until Lamartre in 1822, when the theory of the big bang was built, it was believed that the universe was without a beginning. Eternal, that is. That it had always been there. But with the theory of the big bang, scientists in general and cosmologists in particular had to change their views about the eternal existence of the universe to the opinion that it did have a beginning after all.

Ben

Also a 'victory' for the Quran then.

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When you have a tale told in such vague terms as we find in Genesis, any later discovery can be made to fit. The problem is that it has to be "made" to fit, it doesn't do it on its own.

Tell me Dr., the Bible says that "In the beginning God created the universe." In 1822 Lamartre found out about the big bang and said that it was the beginning of the universe. The cosmologists took from there and spread the news that the universe had indeed had a beginning. If the biblical account was that vague as you imply, how could men of astral knowledge agree that the big bang was indeed an evidence for the origin of the universe? What do you mean by "it has to be made to fit?" IMHO, the big bang does fit Genesis 1:1 as a glove fits the hand.

Ben

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Well, we have scored a victory in 1822 when the theory of the big bang was formulated. Till then, and since the time of Aristotle, the universe was believed to be eternal; without beginning and without end. Now, they have verified that the universe did have a beginning after all with the big bang. They haven't even credited the Bible for having been telling this for thousands of years. (Gen. 1:1)

Ben

And the Enuma Elish, Rig Veda, the tales of Ginnungagap and countless ancient belief systems. It is not such a remarkable achievement for early civilizations to conclude that everything must have a beginning and certainly the Bible deserves no more credit than any other work except that it came much later than most and included tales adopted from earlier beliefs.

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Tell me Dr., the Bible says that "In the beginning God created the universe." In 1822 Lamartre found out about the big bang and said that it was the beginning of the universe. The cosmologists took from there and spread the news that the universe had indeed had a beginning. If the biblical account was that vague as you imply, how could men of astral knowledge agree that the big bang was indeed an evidence for the origin of the universe? What do you mean by "it has to be made to fit?" IMHO, the big bang does fit Genesis 1:1 as a glove fits the hand.

Ben

Of course it’s childishly vague. To simply state “in the beginning” is not profound and fades in the wake of other, earlier beliefs. The Egyptians spoke of the “liquid-like primeval abyss . . . . they spoke of the “endless everywhere” that was “without boundaries or directions.” Imagine that, to know that space has no direction! The Egyptian Nu/Ny/Nun represented unpolarized matter. Now that’s being specific and graphic.

The Incan god Viracocha created the universe with the same simplicity of the Bible.

And yes, the Babylonian Enuma Elish is incredibly detailed in its tale of the creation of the universe.

Some of the most primitive creation tales include the idea that everything had a beginning. The Iroquois, creation tales from Hokkaido, even the divers myths all agree that there was a beginning.

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a

Also a 'victory' for the Quran then.

Well, yes, why not? The writers of the Quran copied a lot from the Bible. In fact, there is a certain tradition that the writers of the Quran were the Rabbis of Medina. It happens that Muhammad, before he went out on his wars of conquest, he assigned the Rabbis of Medina to write a Muslem Bible in exchange for their lives and liberty to practice Judaism without hostility. And Quran was the name given to that Muslim Bible. I am not sure how much of truth there is to that tradition. But it was a facsimile to the Greek Septuagint, a translation done by 70 Rabbis in Alexandria from the Hebrew Scriptures in the original. The tradition goes further that Muhammad did not stand by his word to the Rabbis of Medina and executed them plus other wise Jews up to about 300 of them. He probably wanted to spare future generations of Muslims the humiliation that their Quran had been written by the Jews. Well, as I said above, I wonder how much of this story is true.

Ben

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And the Enuma Elish, Rig Veda, the tales of Ginnungagap and countless ancient belief systems. It is not such a remarkable achievement for early civilizations to conclude that everything must have a beginning and certainly the Bible deserves no more credit than any other work except that it came much later than most and included tales adopted from earlier beliefs.

That's amazing Dr. D. You don't give us a chance to breathe free. I thought we had scored something original to enhance our credibility but... the bite on our throat is too tight.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada

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Of course it’s childishly vague. To simply state “in the beginning” is not profound and fades in the wake of other, earlier beliefs. The Egyptians spoke of the “liquid-like primeval abyss . . . . they spoke of the “endless everywhere” that was “without boundaries or directions.” Imagine that, to know that space has no direction! The Egyptian Nu/Ny/Nun represented unpolarized matter. Now that’s being specific and graphic.

The Incan god Viracocha created the universe with the same simplicity of the Bible.

And yes, the Babylonian Enuma Elish is incredibly detailed in its tale of the creation of the universe.

Some of the most primitive creation tales include the idea that everything had a beginning. The Iroquois, creation tales from Hokkaido, even the divers myths all agree that there was a beginning.

Indeed, it seems to me, we were not original at all. In fact, the Bible calls the Egyptian liquid-like primeval abyss without boundaries and direction as a situation of "Tohu vavohu," an absolute chaos as the condition of the universe before order was introduced.

Ben

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My question is where is hell exactly? And do other planets have a local hell also, or is it interplanetary? How about for animals? You know, like bad dogs that chew your new shoes and get into the trash can while you're out on a sinful gluttonous fast food run? Did they ever mention that part?

Hell is what you can become by choices freely made, so hell like like the kingdom of God is within, not without.

Peace

mark

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cremation = your particles fly in the wind, then land on the ground

or you wait until your urn crumbles

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Jesus is the only way... John 14:6

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Jesus is the only way... John 14:6

I take it you don't have any actual evidence of this? And no, the Bible doesn't count as evidence; not unless you can demonstrate that it's anything more than fiction. Not trying to be antagonistic here, just realistic.

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Jesus is the only way... John 14:6

Naw when it comes to Jesus and God I'd rather follow the don't worship false idols bit but thanks for trying.

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The evil will find their heaven in hell.

The evil will find their hell in heaven.

The good will find their hell in hell.

The good will find their heaven in heaven.

If you agree with the above statements then the surest way to go to heaven is by being 'Evil'.

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