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Saru

Was the Socorro incident an elaborate hoax ?

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Hi, Tim. Nice to meet you. :yes:

As far as my knowledge of UFOs? Unidentified Flying Objects, that is these objects may be initially unidentified, but most can be looked at from a rationale point of view. Noticed that I said MOST, not all. I'm rather open mined about the subject, but hold that the default position of every sighting and experience is not always of the ET variety. I look at probability vs possibility. BTW that tends to fit for quite a few who post here.

UFO has become too tightly associated with the ETH so I've switched over to UAP (Unknown Aerial Phenomenon) in its place. This also allows for weather anomalies and the like. The last figure I saw indicated that 95% of the sightings were eventually explained with rather mundane explanations, including Venus. The other 5% remains unknown but this does not in any way imply that ET is involved. It opens the door to the possibility but doesn't automatically imply it. To my way of thinking, it is incumbent on both sides to provide overwhelming evidence that their side is correct. If either can, then the unknown becomes known and may be put to rest. To date, the unknowns remain just that, unknown.

Socorro, which this thread is about, is just such a case. There are the witness testimonies and a rather small amount of physical evidence but nothing that says whether or not the object was extraterrestrial. It is an unknown. Period.

Would I like to know once and for all that ET has arrived and there is a presence here? Oh, yeah! If nothing else, it would go a long way toward explaining such things as politicians and Paris Hilton. (Yeah, I know. That joke's getting a bit old and I have to find a new one but I kinda like it. :)) A number of the unknowns would become knowns although I believe that some would still remain unknown. It would change a lot of things worldwide although I have no clue in what way and I believe would be the start of an entirely new era in Earth's history. In any event, I don't think it'll be boring. For me personally ... well, I'm still a pilot at heart and I'd love to fly one of their craft.

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So in 4.5 billion years of Earth's ( just our puny planet, god knows how old is universe ) existence you people will say there was no visitation.. man i guess human race got a special ability now, they can look in the past, can you time travel too? You people are more ignorant than politicians... Do you need evidence to believe in god ( Don't list bible.. .that was written by man )? No you don't you just have faith that someday a sky will crackle up and misterious holy hand will make the world a better place... I strongly believe that we had visitation but we might didn't understand them who or what they were, maybe some races are not in same spectrum that our eyes can detect, maybe they are in whole new dimension but we just can't see them.... maybe a more technologically primitive race came to earth in a UFO kind of vehicle ... We don't understand gravity a force of our own planet and you want to understand Alien races and their technology,..

In my opinion sceptic is only denying a belief nothing more if you don't belive in aliens or that we had alien visitations ( most likely ) it's ok ... there is always god and bigfoot and god knows what.. And you know what if advanced race would visit us don't you think they would know we have radars and telescopes and loads of probably black tehnology so they wouldn't just land infront of your dear White house and say Hi ( they would probably get shot at.... )

So all you people can say "that's a hoax,fake, not real ,whatever " but in the end believers will win if not today,than tommorow,maybe next week,maybe in month or two , maybe it will take years or decades but proof will come if not in paper than from out there..

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There were some interesting samples collected in the 1964 Zamora case, which were sent to NASA. I know that Dr.Henry Frankel and Goddard Space Flight Center received some of these, which were an unusual zinc-iron alloy. J. Allen Hynek was aware of all this as well, but we are talking about something that goes far beyond Blue Book here.

http://books.google.com/books?id=caMNee9ybUQC&pg=PA357&lpg=PA357&dq=%22we+cannot+take+credit+for+our+record+advancement+in+certain+scientific%22&source=bl&ots=jsgK76ZwVa&sig=Nqg0nYpTYJWo_YY1HiGhl9Uc3d8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pZowUNTeNITe8wTA4oDwCA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA

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Dr. Frankel was involved in various government scientific projects going back to World War II, and was an expert on metallurgy. He died in 2007, but if he follows the usual pattern in these instances, his personal records will contain no UFO information of any kind.

Just think of this as another one of my "helpful hints", for those who are interested in these things. LOL.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CEAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fwp-dyn%2Fcontent%2Farticle%2F2007%2F10%2F10%2FAR2007101002646.html&ei=0JwwUKL6H4S69QTWmYGoCA&usg=AFQjCNEZkcoW-_oOzGmNmXxpghlWBB-7rg&sig2=T5AzYQj3wIfRSbOrcwRSbA

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Do you need evidence to believe in god ( Don't list bible.. .that was written by man )? No you don't you just have faith that someday a sky will crackle up and misterious holy hand will make the world a better place... I strongly believe that we had visitation but we might didn't understand them who or what they were,

So basically you're saying that religion, which is faith based, and the ETH are the same. This is the same as saying you are treating UFOs and ET as a religion rather than science. You need no evidence, just belief. The interesting part is that I can understand that.

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So basically you're saying that religion, which is faith based, and the ETH are the same. This is the same as saying you are treating UFOs and ET as a religion rather than science. You need no evidence, just belief. The interesting part is that I can understand that.

Kludge there is no need for anyone to relegate the UFO phenomena to faith. The evidence is manifold, and just a little research is needed. It's not a faith for me; it's absolutely real, not because I have seen one myself, because others have whom I respect, and the video evidence that I have seen.

For me respect is a key issue. I respect the Kids at Ruwa. I respect the residents in Phoenix, and in the Hudson Valley. This ties in with the discussion I had with Tim because I feel that the scientist types don't have that same respect. If you watch 'Chasing UFO's' you can see it on the face of Ben McGee. Don't get me wrong, he's got some good qualities, but condescension is the name of what I am talking about.

Edited by zoser
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Kludge there is no need for anyone to relegate the UFO phenomena to faith. The evidence is manifold, and just a little research is needed. It's not a faith for me; it's absolutely real, not because I have seen one myself, because others have whom I respect, and the video evidence that I have seen.

Zoser, I think you missed the part earlier (or maybe in the other thread) when I stated I had seen things I could not identify. I was talking about when I was flying then but I've also seen things while I've been both on the ground and at sea. The phenomenon is real. I know this. Automatically relegating anything unknown to ETH is not realistic in my opinion. Read what I said to Tim Hebert to get a clearer understanding of my position.

The problem I had with Nuke_em's post is that he is accepting ET presence on faith alone. This is how one does a religion and this is not a religion but a quest for knowledge.

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Zoser, I think you missed the part earlier (or maybe in the other thread) when I stated I had seen things I could not identify. I was talking about when I was flying then but I've also seen things while I've been both on the ground and at sea. The phenomenon is real. I know this. Automatically relegating anything unknown to ETH is not realistic in my opinion. Read what I said to Tim Hebert to get a clearer understanding of my position.

The problem I had with Nuke_em's post is that he is accepting ET presence on faith alone. This is how one does a religion and this is not a religion but a quest for knowledge.

So if they are not ET craft what do you think they are?

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Kludge808: "Hi, Tim. Nice to meet you. :yes: "

Nice to meet you too. I like your use of the term UAP. I still use "UFO" since most identify with it but freely admit that it can cause confusion regarding the making of distinctions.

I see that you were, or still, a pilot? What type of aircraft did you fly? I only flew as "cargo" in the back of a Huey to and from the missile sites. We broke no air speed records in that old bird.

Best Regards,

Tim

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So if they are not ET craft what do you think they are?

Unknown. There is no overwhelming evidence to say positively they are or aren't of extraterrestrial origin.

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Unknown. There is no overwhelming evidence to say positively they are or aren't of extraterrestrial origin.

At least, this type of evidence very rarely makes it into the public domain.

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Nice to meet you too. I like your use of the term UAP. I still use "UFO" since most identify with it but freely admit that it can cause confusion regarding the making of distinctions.

That's a large part of the reason I prefer it. Another part is that it allows for weather anomalies and the like. The Zamora case is one I can see as a flying object that is as of yet unidentified a opposed to the hoax Bragalia claims or some unknown weather phenomenon. TheMacGuffin has offered some information as to some of the physical evidence which goes far toward helping with what it wasn't but not so much with what it was.

I see that you were, or still, a pilot? What type of aircraft did you fly? I only flew as "cargo" in the back of a Huey to and from the missile sites. We broke no air speed records in that old bird.

The UH-1 and its civilian counterparts are decent machines with a very good reputation. The fact that it's based on a 1952 design and it's still in service says a lot for it. It's in good company though. The C-130 and B-52 are both from that era as well.

I was a civilian pilot but got grounded on 1976 on a medical. (I've had medical issues all my life and had to get waivers to join the Navy, get my flight physical and later my CDL physical.) I've got over 1000 hours in a wide assortment of aircraft including 90+ in the T-37* and 3 or so in the T-33. On top of that I've got 150-200 simulator hours including around 20 each in the DC-9 and Boeing 737 simulators that USAir had/has. When I got grounded was just after I decided it was time for me to go past being a Private Pilot to something a bit more challenging which was Commercial (which included Instrument) and multi-engine. All at the same time. And, no, I am not a masochist! :wacko:

* I considered selling my soul to Cessna to get type certified in the Tweet since it was such a blast to fly. Talk about a chick-magnet. ;)

At least, this type of evidence very rarely makes it into the public domain.

Good point.

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Col. William Coleman once said that the compression tests for the Zamora UFO found that it weighed about 60 tons, which of course was much heavier than a hot air balloon and could not have easily been hoaxed. Then Dr. Frankel found an unknown metal alloy in samples from the site.

I don't know whether the UFO came from outer space or somewhere much closer, but it was an unknown and unconventional object of some kind.

Coleman also said that Zamora got razzed quite a bit in town after his sighting, and quit the police force two years later because of it, but he never changed his story.

Edited by TheMacGuffin
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As to what type of flying object weighs 60 tons and is made of a very unusual alloy, your guess is as good as mine, friends and neighbors, but Zamora was telling the truth the whole time about the very unusual nature of the thing he saw.

Where did it come from? Why was it here? I wish I knew. I wish I could tell you that I had the answers to the really important questions like those, but I don't. I just don't.

Edited by TheMacGuffin
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As to what type of flying object weighs 60 tons and is made of a very unusual alloy, your guess is as good as mine, friends and neighbors, but Zamora was telling the truth the whole time about the very unusual nature of the thing he saw.

Where did it come from? Why was it here? I wish I knew. I wish I could tell you that I had the answers to the really important questions like those, but I don't. I just don't.

Nor does anyone else. I agree that Officer Zamora was being completely honest and that the physical evidence & witness testimony back him up. That is a huge part of what makes this case so utterly fascinating.

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As far as hanging our coats on university degrees, I happen to have 2 undergraduate degrees and a masters degree...all irrelevant to the topic at hand.

*sheepishly raising hand* ... Does a split major undergrad degree count? ^_^

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If I were to be honest with you psyche, I don't have a lot of time for people who set themselves up as professional UFO debunkers, that hang their coats on their university PHD's. I find attempts at debunking by such people difficult to follow, highly intellectualised to the point of non-comprehension, largely baseless, and full of more fantasy than any ET hypothesis could ever hope to have.

The explanations stem in the main from a fear of the unknown, coupled with a perceived threat to what they consider to be established scientific paradigms.

When you have UFO cases backed in some instances by hundreds of witnesses and then one self appointed scientific hero trying to ridicule those people by drawing their attention to questionable not fully understood scientific principles then that is what I call disrespectful.

Think; there is even debate raging today about what causes gravity! What chance a debunking scientist trying to explain away the UFO phenomena. It's laughable.

I think you should spend some more time with people like this Zoser. If you have a good look at the explanations you will see that they lay it out pretty well, you can learn exactly where they are coming from. If you disagree with them it is far easier going through a controlled method to see exactly what is the point that you find in error and present your own idea on what it should look like. In this fashion you can avoid the endless circle of he said she said by simply breaking down the claim into smaller pieces and examining those pieces more closely.

I disagree on the explanations, I think they are generally a product of ones culture, and I think historical record concerning fairies daemons and other harbingers and abductors show a common theme in the human psyche. Are yesterdays demons and fairies todays aliens? I feel this is highly likely, and I do not think all can possibly be explained as aliens. Such as the Fatima event, in which several witnesses identified religious figures. Fairies and daemons were identified as such, not greys and the like. WHere have the fairies and daemons gone?

When you have one person who is telling you many others are wrong, the best place to see if what he is telling is truth is to pull apart his claim and have a close look at it. You expect any witness no matter how ludicrous to be taken at face value until proven otherwise don't you? Why can skeptics not be afforded the same courtesy? Is this not how skeptics dissect a case? Why is whining the only alternative as a form of defence? Is it because of the value of the information to begin with, and if not, what is the problem then?

If debates such as things about gravity continue, it is not because of opinion, it is because of what can be verified, and yes, the UFO phenomena suffers the same. Yes such debates should ensue, why do you think they should not? Do you think we should believe the most impressive case or a set of facts that can be proven?

Peer review is the key here. If something has merit, it will be recognised as such. And people do not get upset about learning something new, but they do get upset when someone tries to pull the wool over their eyes. That is what "skeptics" as you put it strive to avoid. And that is what skeptics fear, an assault on logic that results in someone losing something. That is all they fear, not stupid UFO and ET stories as the many believers try to make out, after all, the believers are the only ones with something to lose there. Yes, they are arguing about gravity, do you know why? Because they do not understand it. Same as UAP's Zoser, we should try to understand them, not invoke a new set of Greek Gods. If ET is in them, then ET is no God, and we should recognise that too. And if that is indeed the case, that answer will be forthcoming and no government on earth will stop it. Knowledge will prevail.

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I suspect that if one group did, then they all would, and we would suddenly find ourselves in the middle of a UFO convention.

Ah, yes. The infamous intergalactic kegger. :alien::sk:tu:

At least there wouldn't be any goats. Or I don't think there would be ... :unsure2:

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Peer review is the key here. If something has merit, it will be recognised as such. And people do not get upset about learning something new, but they do get upset when someone tries to pull the wool over their eyes. That is what "skeptics" as you put it strive to avoid. And that is what skeptics fear, an assault on logic that results in someone losing something. That is all they fear, not stupid UFO and ET stories as the many believers try to make out, after all, the believers are the only ones with something to lose there. Yes, they are arguing about gravity, do you know why? Because they do not understand it. Same as UAP's Zoser, we should try to understand them, not invoke a new set of Greek Gods. If ET is in them, then ET is no God, and we should recognise that too. And if that is indeed the case, that answer will be forthcoming and no government on earth will stop it. Knowledge will prevail.

Bloody hell, you're good! :nw: :nw: :nw:

This is an excellent summation of the situation. I think something in your sig bears noting, that being, "Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo." It has real meaning here.

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THis thread is too Funny ! I bet we can get a few more hundred pages outta her ! But then again the keys to the universe are a tricky set indeed. One needs to know first what one is looking for,And once knowledge gained know what to do with said knowledge.

THats the Tricky part ! :clap:

Great Post Y`all !

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I believe it was an ET craft. These types of craft are described as egg shape or elliptical and there are a lot of UFO landing cases..

A similar case from around that time would be Valensole, France.

Witness: Maurice Masse

You can read about it here:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/space/aliens-ufos/valensole-ufo.htm

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Bloody hell, you're good! :nw: :nw: :nw:

This is an excellent summation of the situation. I think something in your sig bears noting, that being, "Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo." It has real meaning here.

Cheers Kludge

Thanks for the kind words mate. Capeo was a member here some time ago, and one sharp cookie, I do miss his insights.

I think Zoser has guys like me all wrong, I would be as excited as Zoser to see aliens visit, I just do not like others dragging me into their fantasies, mine are twisted enough as it is. I just like people to be straight up with me as it is how I am with others.

ETA, you are not so bad yourself mate ;) I have not had time to respond to your post a couple pages back on Zamoras balloon, I only had time to "like" it before I had to move on. But thought provoking and I have to concur with your assessment. You seem to have quite a few questions for Mr Bragalia to answer.

Edited by psyche101

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I think Zoser has guys like me all wrong, I would be as excited as Zoser to see aliens visit, I just do not like others dragging me into their fantasies, mine are twisted enough as it is. I just like people to be straight up with me as it is how I am with others.

For the record, I appreciate you being here. You have taught me a lot. I don't know you but I have a perception about your scientific and mathematical background and understand totally where you are coming from.

I think we all need to appreciate what an extremely difficult subject this really is. When I look at the people who have dedicated themselves to it over the decades and then add together all that brain power it is considerable. There is a lot of painstaking education, research, and adding up gone into this subject, and the progress to date has been minimal. Let's not be too hard on ourselves that's what I say.

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I believe it was an ET craft. These types of craft are described as egg shape or elliptical and there are a lot of UFO landing cases..

I definitely don't believe it was a hoax, nor did anyone who met Zamora and looked at the actual evidence. Zamora was a rock-solid UFO witness and even Major Hector Quintanilla of Project Blue Book believed he was telling the truth.

The physical evidence in this unusual UFO case revealed that it was a very heavy object of about 60 tons made out of an unknown zinc-iron alloy that the scientists thought would be a good material to make a spacecraft. This rules out the Zamora UFO being a balloon, plasma or student prank.

As to what it was, where it really came from or why it was here, I have no idea and it's unlikely that anyone else does either. It simply could not be identified as anything known to us.

I suppose the only alternative to an ET explanation was that it was some sort of super-secret military project, but strangely no such thing has been identified either in the 50 years since this incident occurred. Chances are, if such a secret project had existed, some information about it would have been made public after all this time, but it never has.

So the Zamora UFO remains an unidentified object that was made of unknown materials and was very heavy.

Edited by TheMacGuffin
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We've all ready beat the hoax or not a hoax thing to death now. Regardless of whether it was real or not, no one has hit on the fact that Zamora saw markings on the hull of the craft which makes this one of the uncommon cases that "writing" or markings have been seen on the craft itself. There have been a few others but as to if they were markings indeed what could it be? A model #, advertisement, bumper sticker? What do you think??

http://ufofyi.blogspot.com/2009/08/ufos-one-year-at-time-1967-ummo-affair.html

http://forufo.blogspot.com/

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