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LucidElement

Why Do Great Nations Fall?

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Hey Everyone, its been a while since I've been on this sight, I guess one of the biggest reason's I have not been is because people just say things to get there post count up, uneducated things and/or what not. Trust me, Ive been a member of this sight since about 90% of you. =) ... But anyway (i still respect the community of U.M, and I appreciate what Saruman has put together), I had a great conversation with a friend of mine tonight. One thing lead to another (literally) and before we knew it, we were talking about why the greatest nation's have fallen, (ex; Egypt, Rome, Constantinople, Etc) His explantion, summarized, came down to a simple word, "Communication." These countries have fallen because of the lack of communication...

Now, if you look at the U.S.A, as scary as it might be, many people do not understand what is happening outside the box. There are people that are educated, book smart, read up, follow what is happening in this country... then there are those other people who do not care what is going on, do not follow what is happening or just leave it up to others to fix the problems.... Right there proves the point in which as a whole the country of the U.S.A is not communicating.. There was many more things said and backed up with facts, but as a generality, I thought I would say this and see what you all think. Are we at risk of truly falling? let's try and leave the politcs out of it please if at all possible. Because, that right there can always trigger another topic. Take this question at face value.. If you can stray away from political conversation then by all means please back it up with data. Im looking very forward to reading up on this.

Thanks Guys!

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Complacency and greed.

In my opinion.

*smiles at post count looking more impressive*

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Outside of foreign invaders, I would say internal strife. A gov't which separates itself from its people. Regardless of the form of gov't, monarchy, republic, theocracy, etc, it is dependent upon the people, the foundation. As with a tree whose roots are rotted or not deep enough, a strong gust from the right direction at the right time will bring it toppling down. Gov'ts of the world need to accept the fact that they only have power due to the will of the people, if the people decide to provide the right gust at the right time the gov't will fall. The people generally providing that gust may have the right ideas in mind, unfortunately even some of the best of people are corrupted by the power they seek.

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I've always thought that in the case of the USA,the downfall will be our influence on so much of the world will eventually make us irrelevant and a burden that we will eventually be assimilated into whatever culture is closest{probably Latino}.

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Corrupt social and economic order.

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In his book Collapse, Jared Diamond lists several factos main factors: three of them are to do with failure to adapt to environmental issues, and two about neighbouring societies - either a hostile one or the collapse of a supporting one.

The environmental one is pretty clear. Essentially, over-use of resources has caused more major societies to collapse than any other factor.

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Every nation has its own set of circumstances that made it fall, all I can tell you is the indicators, the reasons are multiple.

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I think the first response sums it up well. If you want to put in into one word then it would be, greed!

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I think the first response sums it up well. If you want to put in into one word then it would be, greed!

Inflation destroyed the Roman Empire and threat of it made us Brits dismantle ours.

Once a voice is given to subregated peoples its hard for a great nation to start back up again. The reason is they are in your Senate or Parliament creating a fuss at anyone wanting an Empire back.

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Inflation destroyed the Roman Empire and threat of it made us Brits dismantle ours.

Once a voice is given to subregated peoples its hard for a great nation to start back up again. The reason is they are in your Senate or Parliament creating a fuss at anyone wanting an Empire back.

The incapability of fighting their own wars with their own means destroyed both. The Romans had to hire the Germanic tribes (which became the next power) and the British ask help from the Americans, who then became the next power.

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The incapability of fighting their own wars with their own means destroyed both. The Romans had to hire the Germanic tribes (which became the next power) and the British ask help from the Americans, who then became the next power.

The Romans sank because famine pushed the price of grain up.

Unable to afford the cost of grain the Senate was forced to inflate the money supply. Skyrocketing inflation made them cut their budget spending by reducing the amount of legions they had, withdrawing them to Rome and abandoning many territories. Barbarians then invaded destroyed the Western Roman Empire. The Eastern Roman Empire with its capital as Constantinople survived on for a few more centuries before it too fell.

The British Empire fell because after WW1, the Great Depression and WW2 we were effectively bankrupt. This put us in the position where we either inflated the money supply or let the empire go. Inflaton would have resulted in the same outcome.

Edited by Mr Right Wing

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The Romans sank because famine pushed the price of grain up.

Unable to afford the cost of grain the Senate was forced to inflate the money supply. Skyrocketing inflation made them cut their budget spending by reducing the amount of legions they had, withdrawing them to Rome and abandoning many territories. Barbarians then invaded destroyed the Western Roman Empire. The Eastern Roman Empire with its capital as Constantinople survived on for a few more centuries before it too fell.

The British Empire fell because after WW1, the Great Depression and WW2 we were effectively bankrupt. This put us in the position where we either inflated the money supply or let the empire go. Inflaton would have resulted in the same outcome.

The West Romans came crashing down because their own mercenaries turned against them because they were unable to pay and unable to keep all other promises given, the East Romans (Byzantines) because they needed the help of off the catholic countries to fend off the Turks who were p***ed because the catholic countries were launching crusades against them, help that never came. The price of wheat had little to do with it in both cases.

The inflation that crashed Britain was in part due to the debt incurred with America to fight WWI. The rest because it was not capable of making any money from the colonies, which required more and more money that had to come from somewhere.

So basically: Because they were incapable of fighting their wars without outside help.

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Complacency and greed.

In my opinion.

*smiles at post count looking more impressive*

and thurst for power and control of the many by few.

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The West Romans came crashing down because their own mercenaries turned against them because they were unable to pay and unable to keep all other promises given, the East Romans (Byzantines) because they needed the help of off the catholic countries to fend off the Turks who were p***ed because the catholic countries were launching crusades against them, help that never came. The price of wheat had little to do with it in both cases.

The inflation that crashed Britain was in part due to the debt incurred with America to fight WWI. The rest because it was not capable of making any money from the colonies, which required more and more money that had to come from somewhere.

So basically: Because they were incapable of fighting their wars without outside help.

Similarly that what is going on in Europe today with forced austerity and will eventually take place in the US.

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Similarly that what is going on in Europe today with forced austerity and will eventually take place in the US.

The forced austerity will fix more than it will destroy, kicking the can down the road as in the US and Britain will crash the system.

You don't get out of debt by making more debt and the Western world is almost at the end of its growths potential. Nobody will get out of debt by growing economies, especially not those who already owe more than 100% of their GDP.

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Because, humans try to fix a ultimate goal, and by trying maintain Status Quo, decays. Movement, change is he path for survival, since it is the definition of evolution.

Who created environment, the social structure, the economic, the religious structure? We. Each one has contributed individually, until it has become collective, and the individual who has helped to create the collective, now is lost in the collective, for it has become his mould, his environment. Through the desire for security, financial, moral and spiritual, you have created a capitalistic environment in which there is nationality, class distinction and exploitation. We have created it, you and I. This thing hasn't miraculously come into being. You will again create another capitalistic, acquisitive system of a different kind, with a different nuance, with a different colour, so long as you are seeking security. You may abolish this present pattern, but so long as there is possessiveness, you will create another capitalistic state, with a new phraseology, a new jargon[...]

[...]So individually we must become conscious. I assure you, you will then individually create something immense, not a society which is merely holding to an ideal and therefore decaying, but a society that is constantly in movement, not coming to a culmination and dying. Individuals establish a goal, strive after its attainment, and after attaining, collapse. They try all the time to reach some goal and stay at that stage which they have attained. As the individual so the state - the state is trying all the time to reach an ideal, a goal. Whereas to me the individual must be in constant movement, must ever be becoming, not seeking a culmination, not pursuing a goal. Then self-expression, which is society, will be ever in constant movement. -Jiddu Krishnamurti

Source: http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1934-1935-what-is-right-action/jiddu-krishnamurti-what-is-right-action-10

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Usualy combination of factors. But most common two are climate drought or social alienation. 2nd is most important.

Edited by the L
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Complacency and greed.

In my opinion.

*smiles at post count looking more impressive*

Add to that "too many wars or not enough wars".

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The first 3 mentioned were Dictatorships,and had to go when the top man either died or lost his power to control. Britain went down the pan due to lack of finances after 2 crippling World Wars,which we never started.Japan lost its power through the greed of expansion,and were defeated.America hasn't really got an Empire as such,maybe a few Pacific Islands and so has nothing to lose,and will survive for the forseeable future, in my humble opinion.

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Hey Everyone, its been a while since I've been on this sight, I guess one of the biggest reason's I have not been is because people just say things to get there post count up, uneducated things and/or what not. Trust me, Ive been a member of this sight since about 90% of you. =) ... But anyway (i still respect the community of U.M, and I appreciate what Saruman has put together), I had a great conversation with a friend of mine tonight. One thing lead to another (literally) and before we knew it, we were talking about why the greatest nation's have fallen, (ex; Egypt, Rome, Constantinople, Etc) His explantion, summarized, came down to a simple word, "Communication." These countries have fallen because of the lack of communication...

Now, if you look at the U.S.A, as scary as it might be, many people do not understand what is happening outside the box. There are people that are educated, book smart, read up, follow what is happening in this country... then there are those other people who do not care what is going on, do not follow what is happening or just leave it up to others to fix the problems.... Right there proves the point in which as a whole the country of the U.S.A is not communicating.. There was many more things said and backed up with facts, but as a generality, I thought I would say this and see what you all think. Are we at risk of truly falling? let's try and leave the politcs out of it please if at all possible. Because, that right there can always trigger another topic. Take this question at face value.. If you can stray away from political conversation then by all means please back it up with data. Im looking very forward to reading up on this.

In almost all cases of failure of cultures it's for the exact same reason; the inability

to change and a blind adherence to the status quo. Humans are animals and cul-

ture is the way we are organized to exploit the niche in which we find ourselves. It

is always static and grows and changes through accretion and layers of new regu-

lation and bandages to repair deep wounds. People are too resistant to change to

ever effect anything meaningful in adapting to a changing enviroment. When some-

thing begins to fail like education or the health system we simply add additional lay-

ers of the nonsense that caused it to fail in the first place. We plaster over fatal

wounds and hope they'll go away because in the final analysis almost all humans

through all of history would rather die than change.

Edited by cladking
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Economic conditions are a big factor I think in countries failing along with people feeling suppressed.

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There are many different reasons why nations fall (great or small)...

Yet there is only one thing they would need to do to flourish and prosper and be a whole lot happier....

Is simply Live and let Live

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There are many different reasons why nations fall (great or small)...

Yet there is only one thing they would need to do to flourish and prosper and be a whole lot happier....

Is simply Live and let Live

Trouble with that idea is that every nation has to "play the game".

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In his book Collapse, Jared Diamond lists several factos main factors: three of them are to do with failure to adapt to environmental issues, and two about neighbouring societies - either a hostile one or the collapse of a supporting one.

The environmental one is pretty clear. Essentially, over-use of resources has caused more major societies to collapse than any other factor.

I am going to read Collapse. I've head good thing about it. So you believe that environmental issues is a major cause? What about lack of communication and individuals starting to branch off and do what they want, and not work together??

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So many of you think it has to do with Social Order and not lack of communication amongst individuals, primarily not having everyone work together to build a stronger empire, government, etc. For example, when hurricane katrina struk New Orelans, many people went crazy and started looting houses, killings happend everyone seemed to be against each other instead of working together to fix the greater problem. On the other hand, when the hurricane hit japan, they interviewed a couple of Japanese, and they said "why would anyone want to harm each other and not work together, when in deed the population of Japan is working together to fix the solution" Right there shows a powerful communication and understanding. I feel like the USA is splitting and lack of communication is is destroying the "UNITED" title of our great country. Greed I agree with, that definetly posses a problem, but I am still eager to see if any of you think communication is an issue?

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