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LucidElement

Why Do Great Nations Fall?

68 posts in this topic

Trouble with that idea is that every nation has to "play the game".

I agree every Nation has to play the game... But if they all did then there would be no need for wars or any famine or anything else that goes on in this day and age, due to the fact that everyone would have what they needed (food water etc) and would also be a lot happier if they all only worked together or at least lived and let live...

I feel like the USA is splitting and lack of communication is is destroying the "UNITED" title of our great country. Greed I agree with, that definetly posses a problem, but I am still eager to see if any of you think communication is an issue?

Its NOT just like that in the USA it's also seems like that in the UK...

Communication (or lack of it) definitely has a BIG part of it, so does Greed and a whole lot of other things...

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"why do great nations fall?"

Thats the whole point behind the Atlantis story isnt it?

plato was addressing a question that was nagging his fellow Athenians....

The conclusion is the same for him as that given by Thucydides.......Democracy....

Puting power into the hands of the merchant classes and tradesmen who were not best suited for rule....greedy for profit, and rapine empire.

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Well man, since it's been a long time since you've been on this 'sight', maybe you could read "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire'. Give you some tips.

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Well man, since it's been a long time since you've been on this 'sight', maybe you could read "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire'. Give you some tips.

Gibbon?

Doesnt quite broach the socio-economic factors involved in the 'decline', and his point where decline started is often questioned too.....as is his definition of 'decline'.

edit to add: great read though, and valuable resource.

Edited by The Gremlin

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Gibbon?

Doesnt quite broach the socio-economic factors involved in the 'decline', and his point where decline started is often questioned too.....as is his definition of 'decline'.

edit to add: great read though, and valuable resource.

Do you realise that your signature is larger than your response? :yes:

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Add to that "too many wars or not enough wars".

How about these?

God hates:

  1. A proud look.
  2. A lying tongue.
  3. Hands that shed innocent blood.
  4. A heart that devises wicked plots.
  5. Feet that are swift to run into mischief.
  6. A deceitful witness that uttereth lies.
  7. Him that soweth discord among brethren.

-- King Solomon

It's human nature to destroy. We bore easily.

IMO

Edited by Eldorado

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A big cause for the fall of Rome and the Byzantines was also because of a succession of terrible and corrupt leaders. The Byzantines especially were brought to the edge of destruction several times by useless emperors and were saved when good men deposed the bad ones. Alexios Komenos and Heraclius to name two of the most important saviours. Corruption was the eventual cuase of their downfall as well as Constaninople being sacked during the fourth 'crusade'.

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Do you realise that your signature is larger than your response? :yes:

And unlike my response we find words of true genius therein. :whistle:

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. . . leadership?

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if any of you think communication is an issue?

You skip post17. Can give more info.

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. . . leadership?

Ofcourse. But after leaders become socialy alienated from the core of society.

Perfect example how leadership is/was important is Temujin and Mongol empire. Strenght of Mongol empire lied in leadership.

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It's human nature to destroy. We bore easily.

IMO

Maybe it destructive creativity (economic term) which we can see it in history?

Yes we are bore easily after we reach our goal. You might want to read Schopenhauer philosophy.

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I agree every Nation has to play the game... But if they all did then there would be no need for wars or any famine or anything else that goes on in this day and age, due to the fact that everyone would have what they needed (food water etc) and would also be a lot happier if they all only worked together or at least lived and let live...

Its NOT just like that in the USA it's also seems like that in the UK...

Communication (or lack of it) definitely has a BIG part of it, so does Greed and a whole lot of other things...

Hey Jack, I just want to ask ya or comment rather.. Your summary and agreeance of "every nation has to play the game and if they did that then there would be no need for wars" I have to kindly disagree. Because, if every nation plays the "game" they will (IMO) see other nations playing a different game and either seeing them more fortunate or less fortunate, and want most likey part of that better game, therefore start a war or disputes. Do ya kind'a see where I'm coming from? I don;t think anyone will ever be happy with what they have (as a nation) and that may inturn lead to a downfall. For example, Country A, if they agreed upon everything and they played the game of happiness and agreeance... then Country B, does the same thing... What's stopping country A from looking at Country B and saying hey, Country B is living better then us and why!

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"why do great nations fall?"

Thats the whole point behind the Atlantis story isnt it?

plato was addressing a question that was nagging his fellow Athenians....

The conclusion is the same for him as that given by Thucydides.......Democracy....

Puting power into the hands of the merchant classes and tradesmen who were not best suited for rule....greedy for profit, and rapine empire.

Plato only documented on Atantis what he heard through the family grapevine. I truly, don't believe he saw it with his eyes. (However, again, I am a believer and there sure as heck could be atlantis out there, but without getting OFF topic, because I hate that...) I just want to say, Plato and Atlanatis was just Plato expressing what he heard through his bloodline...

"According to Plato's Timaeus, Critias learned through his family that the Greek statesman Solon (a distant ancestor of Plato) heard about it from Egyptian priests during a visit to Saïs, Egypt in about 590 B.C. The priests claimed to have access to records about Atlantis written on pillars within the temple. Plutarch writes: "His [solon's] first voyage was to Egypt . . . [where he] spent some time in study with Psenophis of Heliopolis and Sonchis the Saite, the most learned of all the priests; from whom, as Plato says, getting knowledge of the Atlantic story, he put it into a poem, and proposed to bring it to the knowledge of the Greeks." But a little further on: "Now Solon having begun his great work in verse, the history or fable of the Atlantic Island, which he had learned from the wise men of Saïs, and thought it convenient for the Athenians to know, abandoned it . . . because of his age, and being discouraged at the greatness of the task." (Life of Solon, 90 A.D.) "..... (BUT AGAIN, PLEASE ALL DO NOT GET OFF TOPIC..) Im more curious about the post at hand =)

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Well man, since it's been a long time since you've been on this 'sight', maybe you could read "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire'. Give you some tips.

HAHA, sorry I spelled it sight and not site. My Bad.. And i have skimmed the Rise and the Fall of the Roman Empire. I actually just got back from Rome.. But that is theorizing if not documenting one country, nothing as a whole.

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Everyone is so focused on just ROME, what about other great nations that have fallen? The Egyptians, once extremely powerful, the Incas, the Mayans.. I mean all so strong yet all fell.. Ya Disease, war, catastrophes, but you read back on those nations/civilizations you must think to yourself. Hey, these individuals did things that humans today still cant figure out, yet they stood there ground for so long. But how could they not stay afloat. I just feel like if you are so powerful and you accompish incredible feat's like these nations/civilzations have, how did they not overcome them and what is stopping top nations today from facing the same head on collision?

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Plato only documented on Atantis what he heard through the family grapevine. I truly, don't believe he saw it with his eyes. (However, again, I am a believer and there sure as heck could be atlantis out there, but without getting OFF topic, because I hate that...) I just want to say, Plato and Atlanatis was just Plato expressing what he heard through his bloodline...

"According to Plato's Timaeus, Critias learned through his family that the Greek statesman Solon (a distant ancestor of Plato) heard about it from Egyptian priests during a visit to Saïs, Egypt in about 590 B.C. The priests claimed to have access to records about Atlantis written on pillars within the temple. Plutarch writes: "His [solon's] first voyage was to Egypt . . . [where he] spent some time in study with Psenophis of Heliopolis and Sonchis the Saite, the most learned of all the priests; from whom, as Plato says, getting knowledge of the Atlantic story, he put it into a poem, and proposed to bring it to the knowledge of the Greeks." But a little further on: "Now Solon having begun his great work in verse, the history or fable of the Atlantic Island, which he had learned from the wise men of Saïs, and thought it convenient for the Athenians to know, abandoned it . . . because of his age, and being discouraged at the greatness of the task." (Life of Solon, 90 A.D.) "..... (BUT AGAIN, PLEASE ALL DO NOT GET OFF TOPIC..) Im more curious about the post at hand =)

I think you missed my point.

Plato was addressing an Athenian audience in Democratic Athens.....with its empire diminished since losing in the Peloponnesian War against the Spartans.

"How could the state have fallen so?".....would have been the sentiment that he's concerned most with.

After the war 30 oligarchs got together and took power, backed by the Spartans.....and a dark time of political killings followed...the 30 Tyrants were ousted...and democratic order restored.....

Since many of the 30 were students of Socrates (like Plato), the ugly thinker was put on trial for ungodliness and corruption of youth (a theme earlier exploited by Aristophanes).....and he was executed.

Socrates was anti-democratic......so was Plato.

So forget the whole "does Atlantis exist?" argument....Plato was using the story as a vehicle for his political theory.

He was explaining to the Athenians why they have suffered, and continue to do so.

Like Atlantis, Athens' purity in the eyes of the gods became corrupted by placing the 'helm' of the state at the hands of tradesmen and merchants, who greedily eyed the foreign markets of friends and foes alike; progressing to enforce their will on them, alienating itself, and inviting resistance, and the nemesis of the gods.

Hubris............believing they were destined to be 'protectors' of allied peoples

Ate.....exploiting allies, and using a powerful navy to force them to pay tribute, becomming the oppressors they once sought to protect their people from.

Nemesis.....the plague, numerous seiges, military disasters, final defeat to a more 'noble' State............and in the case of the story of Atlantis......Natural disasters at the hands of the gods.

This sentiment was one shared by other oligarchs and supporters of Oligarchy......most notably Thucidides in his "History Of The Peloponnesian War"

My point was that Plato's model can perhaps be applied in most, if not all, cases to some degree of Great Nations falling.

:unsure2:

edited: for clarity and to add....

"Until philosophers rule as kings or those who are now called kings and leading men genuinely and adequately philosophise, that is, until political power and philosophy entirely coincide, while the many natures who at present pursue either one exclusively are forcibly prevented from doing so, cities will have no rest from evils,... nor, I think, will the human race." (Republic 473c-d)

Edited by The Gremlin
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I recall in the early 1970s, reading or hearing of a list of precursors to the fall of civilizations. I don't recall all of them, but they're very telling:

1. A preoccupation with sex.

2. When citizens have a great deal of leisure time (slavery in many civilizations allowed this, today machinery does).

3. The nation goes far beyond its borders to extend its influence.

4. When garbage replaces art (hip-hop, Sydney Pollock, Mappelthorpe, heavy metal, rap, needlessly violent movies, etc. all come to mind).

5. The inability of the citizens to communicate with, or influence, their leaders (basically, the king or council refuse to listen).

That's all I recall. As I remember, there were 10 signs.

I've thought of this list often through the decades, looked around me, and wondered what went wrong. This list explained it.

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I Don't Think People And Their Mentalities Were Much Different in The Past .. Actually I Think That In Most Respects People Have Not Changed At All .. It Is Only A Matter Of Time When Our "Great Nation" Will Fall ..

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I Don't Think People And Their Mentalities Were Much Different in The Past .. Actually I Think That In Most Respects People Have Not Changed At All .. It Is Only A Matter Of Time When Our "Great Nation" Will Fall ..

I Don't Think People And Their Mentalities Were Much Different in The Past .. Actually I Think That In Most Respects People Have Not Changed At All .. It Is Only A Matter Of Time When Our "Great Nation" Will Fall ..

There's nothing new under the sun and remarkably enough, there never really was.

People are blinded by their place and time and the smoke and mirrors that are civil-

ization and rarely glimpse the big picture. It can stare us right in the face in the form

of a hummigbird or a traffic accident yet we don't see it. We see our prejudices and

preconceptions. We see everything that supports what we believe and nothing else.

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Cultural and racial (or nationals vs non nationals if you want to be politically correct) homogeneity. There is more communication in the US than ever before in some ways but in other ways cultural and racial barriers can block or buckle unified national communication. The reason the US is 'falling' (changing would be a better word) is because the demographics of america are changing. It is changing from a 1st world country with mostly european racial and cultural backgrounds to a multicultural nation with diverse backgrounds (mostly 3rd world), values and goals.

The change between America pre and post Columbus was a change in people. The native americans 'fell' because ultimately they were outnumbered and assimilated by the invading europeans. Yes guns, germs and steel naturally gave the invaders an advantage but in the fullness of time it was a change in people that changed america. The same thing is happening again now with mass immigration and population increases amongst ethnic groups, lower population increases amongst the european americans and assimilation between the two. A nation or region is a product of it's people. Change the make up of its people and you change the nation. Same thing in europe. If you take 1st world countries and flood them full of cheap ethnic labour from 3rd world countries you will not have a 1st world country for very long. Greed, communication and environment are factors but the changing genetic makeup of nations is a major factor not to be ignored. People who breed plants and animals know this full well.

Egypt, Rome....they collapsed ultimately because their population make up changed. China has never drastically fallen in thousands of years because it's racial and cultural makeup has not drastically changed and there is a definate (and arguably wise) reason why China wants to keep itself 'xenophobically' han. The UK was similar for a long time but its demographics are now changing rapidly. Not every nation or civlisation 'falls', it is not inevitable for every great nation. Many survive millenia of environmental change, disaster, wars, greed and lack of 'communication'. The nations or civilisations that are exposed to a change in their homogeneity via slavery, mass immigration or by being conquered and overun by another group of people will change the most. This is why Rome is in ruins, Egpyt is in ruins - once a first class high civilisation now a 3rd world country - and why many US cities are in ruins.

Edited by Dragonwind
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The same thing is happening again now with mass immigration and population increases amongst ethnic groups, lower population increases amongst the european americans and assimilation between the two. A nation or region is a product of it's people. Change the make up of its people and you change the nation. Same thing in europe. If you take 1st world countries and flood them full of cheap ethnic labour from 3rd world countries you will not have a 1st world country for very long. Greed, communication and environment are factors but the changing genetic makeup of nations is a major factor not to be ignored. People who breed plants and animals know this full well.

These changes are symptomatic of our unwillingness to change. The country was rich in vast

resources of almost everything and exploiting these resources required vast consumption and

consumerism. Waste became rampant as resources were shoveled out of the ground and then

shoveled right back in as garbage or stored in vaults in the ground as gold.

Most of these resources are gone now and used up but our politicians know that people hate

change so we still waste the resources. Our industry is non-competitive so we erect huge bar-

riers to start up businesses to protect the inefficiency and waste of the status quo which is the

existing business. There's no accountability or responsibility any longer so Americans have it

in their heads that a CEO who runs a multinational company into the ground deserves millions

upon countless millions of dollars in golden parachutes but an honest man doing a hard day's

work deserves nothing but starvation wages. This means the US goivernment has to import

millions of people willing to do hard work for very little money. They are called "illegal" so that

they can be exported if they complain. If a state passes laws to exclude such illegals they will

be boycotted by one of the worst school systems in the entire country (which ruins more lives

than automobile accidents). The politicians need this "illegal" immigration to maintain the fict-

ion that waste in government and massive government spending and debt aren't causing infla-

tion. If we had to pay Americans to do all the hard work being done by "illegals" prices would

soar.

The entire economy is founded on consumption and waste. Laws are set up which assure bus-

iness wastes as much as it uses through sweetheart deals with power companies to taxes on

income. Greed drives the wheels that perpetuate the status quo. Greed takes unto itself the

lifeblood of an economy founded on waste in an era of depleting resources.

It's the American people who vote for those who promise more of the same; lower taxes and more

spending. There is growing pressure in the lamp with the inflation genii but so long as we ignore it

and the politicians play sleight of hand there's no price to pay and it's our children who will pay

the piper. It's the willingness to pass problems forward that is a common factor in failures. It's our

strange belief that people aren't responsible for outcomes or even their own actions that has led

to this situation. This belief can be traced back to 1899 when Freud spent time in a hotel with his

sister in law and spent the rest of his carrer intellectualizing his dalience and human frailty. His book

which was widely misinterpreted to suggest the existence of a "subconscious mind" which removes

responsibility from the individual can be considered the undoing of society itself. This was Token

and Taboo and was published nearly a century ago.

All human action is based on beliefs.

Be careful what you believe or might find yourself living in a time when criminals are given huge am-

ounts of money and positions of authority while honest men doing hard work are sneered at and are

called "illegal".

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...you'll find yourself living in a time when the principal is the biggest bully in the schoolyard and political correctness takes precedence even over kids learning how to read and write.

...you'll find yourself living in a time when people are murdered to force children into illegal gangs and the media excuses it as "caught in the cross-fire".

...you'll find yourself living in a time when the only distinction between the political parties is "great taste... ...less filling".

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It is really very simple...

you allow the creation of a ruling elite - in Democracies it is the 2 party system, and the belief that certain families are "better" than others in ruling a country. This is true throughout time.

Eventually, the common people realise this and then the door opens to revolution because most people prefer to have a real say in their destiny. Unfortunately, revolution often leads to despotism (USSR is an example, as is Uganda and Iran).

History is repeating itself in our own lifetime, both in the USA and the UK where 2 parties control everything that we do, we are all too stupid to vote for a 3rd alternative because the 2 Party system scares us into believing that a vote for a 3rd party will give victory to one of the 2 main parties....

We deserve what we get

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We deserve what we get

Don't know, but surely in any democracy we get what we deserve.

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