Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 1
spursfan

near death experiences

29 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I have read in the past about near death experiences. I am not too sure where i stand on them. I have read that near death experiences can be induced by the drug ketamine, for instance. This must mean that NDE's aren't a genuine experience of what happens when we die and that they are chemically induced ?.

It puzzles me though as to why some people go to hell in their NDE's ?. I don't know if this too happens under the influence of drugs ?. But why would anyone go to hell in their NDE's. Surely we all want to go to heaven and see our families etc, like poeple do in most NDE's ?. If the experience of NDE is wish fulfillment of our wish to have an afterlife then how come people have bad NDE's ?. One person even had a bad NDE after a drug overdose when they nearly died and a positive NDE after nearly dying in an accident.

The only way i can see how this can happen is we somehow judge ourselves, or maybe are judged.

Sorry if my question is stupid !.

Edited by spursfan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Testimonial evidence of NDEs is overwhelming. While its possible that drugs can induce NDE-like experiences, it doesn't disprove them as a natural phenomenon. I don't know what kind of reading you've done in the past, but I recommend near-death.com for an exhaustive resource on NDEs.

AmishHacker

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love hearing these stories as well...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I have read in the past about near death experiences. I am not too sure where i stand on them. I have read that near death experiences can be induced by the drug ketamine, for instance. This must mean that NDE's aren't a genuine experience of what happens when we die and that they are chemically induced ?.

It puzzles me though as to why some people go to hell in their NDE's ?. I don't know if this too happens under the influence of drugs ?. But why would anyone go to hell in their NDE's. Surely we all want to go to heaven and see our families etc, like poeple do in most NDE's ?. If the experience of NDE is wish fulfillment of our wish to have an afterlife then how come people have bad NDE's ?. One person even had a bad NDE after a drug overdose when they nearly died and a positive NDE after nearly dying in an accident.

The only way i can see how this can happen is we somehow judge ourselves, or maybe are judged.

Sorry if my question is stupid !.

It's not stupid. Heaven and hell are states not places. Years of OOBEs have taught me a lot about altered state inturpretation. None of the current rhetoric against NDEs are even remotely thought out or accurate. It's more like grasping at straws. Let's take your ketamine example. if I reproduce say an itchy foot with some sort of psyco active chemical, that says nothing about the reality of itchy feet. The induction of the experience may be artificial but indeed the natural experience is very real... Otherwise, you would not even have the capacity to experience it in the first place.

Edited by Seeker79
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not stupid. Heaven and hell are states not places. Years of OOBEs have taught me a lot about altered state inturpretation. None of the current rhetoric against NDEs are even remotely thought out or accurate. It's more like grasping at straws. Let's take your ketamine example. if I reproduce say an itchy foot with some sort of psyco active chemical, that says nothing about the reality of itchy feet. The induction of the experience may be artificial but indeed the natural experience is very real... Otherwise, you would not even have the capacity to experience it in the first place.

:tu:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Read markdohle's blog. He has an interest in NDEs and has shared some amazing accounts he has culled from various sources. Dude has an obvious passion for the subject and really does his homework.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have read in the past about near death experiences. I am not too sure where i stand on them. I have read that near death experiences can be induced by the drug ketamine, for instance. This must mean that NDE's aren't a genuine experience of what happens when we die and that they are chemically induced ?.

It puzzles me though as to why some people go to hell in their NDE's ?. I don't know if this too happens under the influence of drugs ?. But why would anyone go to hell in their NDE's. Surely we all want to go to heaven and see our families etc, like poeple do in most NDE's ?. If the experience of NDE is wish fulfillment of our wish to have an afterlife then how come people have bad NDE's ?. One person even had a bad NDE after a drug overdose when they nearly died and a positive NDE after nearly dying in an accident.

The only way i can see how this can happen is we somehow judge ourselves, or maybe are judged.

Sorry if my question is stupid !.

spursfan,

Some are shown hell because of the lack of reverence for that which is good and wholesome. That person is always a child of light who is shown this because it accelerates thinking and learning bringing that soul to the desired level of development where they need to be.

Others who see demons are shown this for the same reason and to share it with others.

The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Near Death Experience (my definition):

About 30 years ago I started a free climb at a raging river's edge and got about 30 - 40 feet up. I looked up and I looked down. Down, was suicide. Up, was my only salvation.

I can never call myself a 'true atheist' because I had all those 'inner discussions' a person has, when they're caught in that situation. When I got 'stuck', I made a solemn agreement with 'the being', that if I didn't die today, I would never attempt this kind of thing again, unless I got the proper training and equipment. At one point, I 'saw', in my mind the small headline in a newspaper regarding my demise... "Local Man Dies Rock Climbing". My thought, after that, was if I fall, kick free and try to make the river.

60 - 70 feet later when I finally got up to bridge level, my legs felt like uncontrolled jackhammers.

It was on the north side of the Farwell Canyon bridge on the Chilcotin River (British Columbia, Canada, Highway 20). If you're so inclined, 'google earth' it.

After that, me and 'God', we're okay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Testimonial evidence of NDEs is overwhelming.smile.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This summer I had bacterial meningitis and the doctors gave me a 30% chance that I would die. They had me on morphine, hydrocodone, and dilaudid for a whole week. The night I decided to go to the hospital I woke up in the middle of the night with the worst headache imaginable and terrible shakes. I remember laying in bed slipping in and out of consciousness. As I actually got up and started toward the hallway to go downstairs I remember the hallway becoming longer in length and surrounded in a gray light. At the end I saw a black mass that could only be described as a demon. To my right I saw a thin shadowed outline that was I was unmistakeably positive to be my friend who had killed himself years ago. He led me past the dark mass and I made it downstairs where my mother rushed me to the emergency room.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This summer I had bacterial meningitis and the doctors gave me a 30% chance that I would die. They had me on morphine, hydrocodone, and dilaudid for a whole week. The night I decided to go to the hospital I woke up in the middle of the night with the worst headache imaginable and terrible shakes. I remember laying in bed slipping in and out of consciousness. As I actually got up and started toward the hallway to go downstairs I remember the hallway becoming longer in length and surrounded in a gray light. At the end I saw a black mass that could only be described as a demon. To my right I saw a thin shadowed outline that was I was unmistakeably positive to be my friend who had killed himself years ago. He led me past the dark mass and I made it downstairs where my mother rushed me to the emergency room.

Awesome.... I'm glad you are alright.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NDE's are powerful experiences which, regardless if they are positive or negative cause people to live better lives. That being said I am not convinced that they are real, it makes me wonder if its some type of deception by the spirit world, but since most people come away from it better and not worse then maybe an illusion with the intent to build people up and become more spiritual.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A near death experience changed my life, for the better. I had heard about them but never thought I would be one to experience it. When I came back I had to face what I had been hiding from all of my life and that was my abilities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Testimonial evidence of NDEs is overwhelming.smile.gif

Welcome to the forums fenta.Near death experience? About 10 years ago a friend and workmate had his arm (just below the elbow) severed, pretty neatly by a hydraulic wood splitting blade. The problem was, was that it was deep snow in April, and we were about 40 miles from the nearest helicopter extraction zone.

But, because of the late April snow we also had lots of snow to pack his lower arm in, and lots of time to discuss it. The 'so called' victim was the most buoyant personality during the transportation.

In between sharing a cigarette with him, my other hand alternated between my thumb and index finger, for over an hour. Which one to stick into, just below his armpit to stem the flow of blood. Friends in the front seat were providing pressure, pushing down on the stump.

Long story short, he got to the big city hospital, about twelve hours later, and the vascular surgeons there were tickled pink to sew it all up.

He's good now, just a 'frankenscar'. He can still play guitar and bass pretty well, but his vocals still suck.

But maybe that's not a near death experience, because my friend Wayne said, "No, I'm not going to die today."

Edited by Likely Guy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peace of Mind: Near-Death Experiences Now Found to Have Scientific Explanations

Seeing your life pass before you and the light at the end of the tunnel, can be explained by new research on abnormal functioning of dopamine and oxygen flow

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=peace-of-mind-near-death

Seeing that drugs affect the dopamine levels and oxygen flow in the body it completely makes sense they can induce this hallucination.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peace of Mind: Near-Death Experiences Now Found to Have Scientific Explanations

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=peace-of-mind-near-death

Seeing that drugs affect the dopamine levels and oxygen flow in the body it completely makes sense they can induce this hallucination.

Oh brother... Not this old argument again. Because something can induce something has no bearing what so ever on the non induced state. We can probably induce the smell of flowers, feeling hot, or sad emotions. None of this says anything about the existence of flowers, heat , or events that actually make us sad.

The logic goes like this. If we can artificially induce an NDE like experience, then NDEs are hullicinations. therefore a person haveing an NDE is haveing an artificial experience.

A gross logical erorr.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent#section_1

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh brother... Not this old argument again. Because something can induce something has no bearing what so ever on the non induced state. We can probably induce the smell of flowers, feeling hot, or sad emotions. None of this says anything about the existence of flowers, heat , or events that actually make us sad.

The logic goes like this. If we can artificially induce an NDE like experience, then NDEs are hullicinations. therefore a person haveing an NDE is haveing an artificial experience.

A gross logical erorr.

http://en.m.wikipedi...quent#section_1

It's empirical evidence that it is not a spiritual experience, but a brain malfunction.

The drug induces deviant levels of dopamine and oxygen flow.

When not induced by a drug the same deviant levels of dopamine and oxygen flow occurs.

So you can turn it either way : it is not something spiritual , it is a malfunction that manifests in hallucination.

If you go high up in the sky and you start to suffer from hypoxia you also get euphoric and can get hallucinations. So you're claiming that this is a spiritual experience, that's BS.

Edited by Render

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's empirical evidence that it is not a spiritual experience, but a brain malfunction.

The drug induces deviant levels of dopamine and oxygen flow.

When not induced by a drug the same deviant levels of dopamine and oxygen flow occurs.

So you can turn it either way : it is not something spiritual , it is a malfunction that manifests in hallucination.

If you go high up in the sky and you start to suffer from hypoxia you also get euphoric and can get hallucinations. So you're claiming that this is a spiritual experience, that's BS.

I was claiming that sort of logic is silly. "that's bs" is not a counter argument. You might as well say IB profrin dosn't ease pain because it's just a chemical reaction. If you dream of peeches, then peeches are not real because it was only your dream. Are you starting to get it now? Corolation my dear Watson is rarely what it seems at first innocent look.

With that said OOBES can be induced without low oxygen level or drugs ;) ;). Neither conditions are necessary.

Edited by Seeker79
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was claiming that sort of logic is silly. "that's bs" is not a counter argument. You might as well say IB profrin dosn't ease pain because it's just a chemical reaction. If you dream of peeches, then peeches are not real because it was only your dream. Are you starting to get it now? Corolation my dear Watson is rarely what it seems at first innocent look.

With that said OOBES can be induced without low oxygen level or drugs ;) ;). Neither conditions are necessary.

You are increasingly making less sense.

Yes OBE's can be induced in several other ways, and ALWAYS do they affect the same brain parts, which go through the same changes/deviant behavior. Understand this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are increasingly making less sense.

Yes OBE's can be induced in several other ways, and ALWAYS do they affect the same brain parts, which go through the same changes/deviant behavior. Understand this.

So it's not just oxygen deprivation and always causes brain damage...... Hugh?

Same brain parts for all OBES.... Realy? Proof?

Edited by Seeker79

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So it's not just oxygen deprivation and always causes brain damage...... Hugh?

Same brain parts for all OBES.... Realy? Proof?

The proof lies in all the experiments that have been done to induce OBE's, via various measures.

Magnetic influence, chemical influence, sensory deprivation,...etc...

And brain damage is a heavy term, which is why i prefer the "malfunction" term or "deviant" behaviour.

Edited by Render

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The proof lies in all the experiments that have been done to induce OBE's, via various measures.

Magnetic influence, chemical influence, sensory deprivation,...etc...

And brain damage is a heavy term, which is why i prefer the "malfunction" term or "deviant" behaviour.

Sources? What happened during these "OBES" what sort of controls we're in place? really have you looked at the experiments? can you please site a few? Have they been repeated? What sort of peer review has happened?

You see people say this kind of stuff all the time. Most skeptics will agree with me on that one. The problem of course is that 90% of the time it's heresy and the reality of the "experiment" is much is much more ambiguouse, non the less the logic and premise of the analysis of the data and conclusions reached.

I have already addressed this half a dozen times In the last two days. We can Induce all sorts of experiences with many different avenues to induce. This says nothing about the experiences themselves other that they can be induced.

The problem of course is your premise. If you operate under the premise that the brain is a producer of conciousness ( generally the materialist/reductionist view) then you will inturpret that the brain when tampered with changes conciousness.

If you operate under the premise that the brain is a receiver of conciousness ---- like a television or radio---- ( generally the spiritual premis), then you will inturpret that the brain when tampered with also changes perceptions of conciousness. Any kind of data from these "experiments" would support both views, therefore is irelevant.

Still.... I have yet to see a single artificially induced experience that even remotely resembles a full blown typical NDE. Find one and site it for me please. Yet still, it wouldnt change anything. OBEs happen under altered conciousness.... And yes there is a myriad of ways to alter conciousness. Just like a radio, it can be tuned to a plethora of channels.

Edited by Seeker79

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I was about 13 I had an NDE. I was with my parents fishing in a river, when I tried to follow my Dad who was fishing for bait i got caught in an underwater current. I was right below a dam, so the water pushed me down full force. I struggled for awhile, I would fight to get to the top and then get pulled down again. I remember my dad having ahold of my feet a couple of times, and being pulled away by the water. Then for a while it was just me struggling. I remember the strangeness of the pain, more than aching from fighting with all my strength, the pressure of the water was crushing me. I remember hurting really bad, being really tired... then everything turned peaceful, I didn't feel pain anymore. It was like time stopped, the sound of the water stopped, and all I could see was rays of sunlight coming through the water. It was like for a few seconds that's all that there was, the sun shining trough in quiet peacefulness. Then I was back, I was being shook and rushed out by the water, I washed up on a sandbar about 100 ft down the river.

To this day I try to understand what that was, was I leaving for good?? Was my body dead for a second? why didn't I feel anything?? Well no... I did feel something. I felt peace, caught dead in the middle of fear and struggle for that quick second everything around me didn't matter anymore, I was in peace. I didn't have any figures coming at me, or loved ones around waiting for me. It was just me, in complete and total peace, taking in the warmth of the sun (is the only way I can explain it). Maybe that was chemical influence, and me taking the last grasps at life, holding on to the only thing I could see. However I don't think that accounts for that feeling. I can't really explain it, it was happiness, it was release.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sources? What happened during these "OBES" what sort of controls we're in place? really have you looked at the experiments? can you please site a few? Have they been repeated? What sort of peer review has happened?

Still.... I have yet to see a single artificially induced experience that even remotely resembles a full blown typical NDE. Find one and site it for me please. Yet still, it wouldnt change anything. OBEs happen under altered conciousness.... And yes there is a myriad of ways to alter conciousness. Just like a radio, it can be tuned to a plethora of channels.

"Yet still, it wouldnt change anything."

So why would i bother helping you google things?

If you're not even gonna look at the first link i posted (which contains names and studies you can then look up yourself) then forgive me for not playing your google-helper, I have no obligation to do so.

I understand that you are not wiling to settle for induced experiments, that's fine and that is exactly why many research is still being done.

I think one of the biggest experiments is now going on, first results are expected next year i think. The AWARE study of the University of Southampton. http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=38

Damn it, i googled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Yet still, it wouldnt change anything."

So why would i bother helping you google things?

If you're not even gonna look at the first link i posted (which contains names and studies you can then look up yourself) then forgive me for not playing your google-helper, I have no obligation to do so.

I understand that you are not wiling to settle for induced experiments, that's fine and that is exactly why many research is still being done.

I think one of the biggest experiments is now going on, first results are expected next year i think. The AWARE study of the University of Southampton. http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=38

Damn it, i googled.

Render, I have looked at all this material before. This is why I'm confident in asking for sources on such bold claims as you have made about these experiments. Im aware of the aware study? ;) ;) I can google it or return to the library in my garage which contains a plethora of books including skeptical ones ( Susan blackmore). Both of which I have already done many times. If you cant tell Im well educated on the matter. Not only that, I'm an experiencer aswell.

Continuing to parrot old rhetoric instead of addressing the arguments logically just keeps you on a hamster wheel.

For example.. Virtually no full blown type NDE experiences have been reported from these induction "experiments", yet they are eroniously used to invalidate real NDEs with typically illogical arguments. ( with the exceptions of DMT injections, but even then it lacks the same quality as NDEs see " spirit molecule") (If you have one, site it please) at most just vague singular changes in perceptions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 1

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.