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Avatar Samantha Ai

Would you accept the Mark of the Beast?

MOTB Hypothetical Scenario #4   91 members have voted

  1. 1. If the Antichrist were real would you:

    • Hide in the woods and survive by hunting white fighting back and resisting until the end?
      39
    • Stay in the city and get persecuted for not accepting the mark?
      9
    • Accept the mark and become a follower of the Antichrist?
      18
    • Other?
      25

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187 posts in this topic

K

Back to the topic...if there still is one...

...Here is some injected Reality into the thread which I find very interesting...This isn't skeptical mish-mash...this is fact: Many Jews are waiting for the Messiah. Many Christians are waiting for the Messiah...second coming. And many Muslims are waiting for the Messiah...the Mahdi. Everyone is waiting for the Messiah it seems to come and save the world from itself. The world therefore is ripe for some sort of polarizing figure that can bring everyone together, willing or not...and create 'peace' in a world of bloodshed and doom. Whether Revelations is true or not becomes irrelevant because it very well may be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Here is something else that is interesting: There are other groups who believe they have already met the Messiah and that Christians, Jews and Muslims wouldn't recognize Him if He was standing right in front of them. ;)

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Here is something else that is interesting: There are other groups who believe they have already met the Messiah and that Christians, Jews and Muslims wouldn't recognize Him if He was standing right in front of them. ;)

That isn't really interesting...and it has nothing to do with the discussion...now does it?

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So you are saying one should get the same from Revelation that they get from any great work of fiction?

From any great work! Suffice to say that some of us can find inspiration and wisdom/truth on the back of a cardboard box of cereal. I personally find 1984 considerably more chilling than Revelations.

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That isn't really interesting...and it has nothing to do with the discussion...now does it?

It has nothing to do with the discussion? You were the one who brought it up. Did you forget your medicine?

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From any great work! Suffice to say that some of us can find inspiration and wisdom/truth on the back of a cardboard box of cereal. I personally find 1984 considerably more chilling than Revelations.

"That isn't really interesting...and it has nothing to do with the discussion...now does it?"

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By and far, Revelations mirrors the writings of Daniel more than anything else, and I would think the author was definitely influenced by the writings of Daniel. The parrallels to Revelations and today are many. But again...I will not bow down to anyone or anything...they'll have to kill me first! That being said, one of the warnings was...all who take up the sword must die by the sword...so be it.

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By and far, Revelations mirrors the writings of Daniel more than anything else, and I would think the author was definitely influenced by the writings of Daniel. The parrallels to Revelations and today are many. But again...I will not bow down to anyone or anything...they'll have to kill me first! That being said, one of the warnings was...all who take up the sword must die by the sword...so be it.

"Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword." Matthew 26:52

Jesus was once again explaining the "law of karma" just like the Bible spells it out so many times such as "As ye sow, so shall ye reap" and "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." But Christians dropped the idea of reincarnation around the 3rd or 4th century so there are few Christians alive who even realize what Jesus was saying.

They all know that "all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword" is wrong because so many have taken up the sword and lived a fine life afterwards. So either Jesus was lying, or He was speaking about something else (that the church determines) or He was talking about what will happen in a future lifetime.

But, of course that can't be true because the Christian Church would have a hard time surviving if Christians came to believe they would get another shot at all this. :yes:

Edited by Shabd Mystic
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"Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword." Matthew 26:52

Jesus was once again explaining the "law of karma" just like the Bible spells it out so many times such as "As ye sow, so shall ye reap" and "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." But Christians dropped the idea of reincarnation around the 3rd or 4th century so there are few Christians alive who even realize what Jesus was saying.

They all know that "all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword" is wrong because so many have taken up the sword and lived a fine life afterwards. So either Jesus was lying, or He was speaking about something else (that the church determines) or He was talking about what will happen in a future lifetime.

But, of course that can't be true because the Christian Church would have a hard time surviving if Christians came to believe they would get another shot at all this. :yes:

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." Rev. 13:10

Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Reincarnationists...all have one thing in common...they all believe they are right and everyone else is wrong. :yes:

I don't think any of them are right...no one can possibly know...so there you go.

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"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." Rev. 13:10

Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Reincarnationists...all have one thing in common...they all believe they are right and everyone else is wrong. :yes:

I don't think any of them are right...no one can possibly know...so there you go.

Sorry to say but you couldn't possibly be more wrong. Christians, Muslims and Jews thrive on "beliefs." So do people like you who "believe" "no one can possibly know." Throughout history there have been incalcuable mystics who have actually gone to where the Christians, Muslims and Jews only see in their imagination and they experience God firsthand and in ways that are more "real" than anything you have ever experienced.

But it's much more fun to come to online message boards and to portray yourself as incredibly wise than to ever take the steps that wll give you true Wisdom. :whistle:

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Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Reincarnationists...all have one thing in common...they all believe they are right and everyone else is wrong. :yes:

Sorry to say but you couldn't possibly be more wrong. Christians, Muslims and Jews thrive on "beliefs." So do people like you who "believe" "no one can possibly know." Throughout history there have been incalcuable mystics who have actually gone to where the Christians, Muslims and Jews only see in their imagination and they experience God firsthand and in ways that are more "real" than anything you have ever experienced.

But it's much more fun to come to online message boards and to portray yourself as incredibly wise than to ever take the steps that wll give you true Wisdom. :whistle:

I rest my case.

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I rest my case.

Might be the only smart thing you have said here.

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Might be the only smart thing you have said here.

There are things knowable...and things unknowable. Logic is based on the 'knowable'. Belief is based on the 'unknowable'. What happens after death is 'unknowable'. If one claims to know then they are acting under belief not logic. One's belief is one's belief...but they all have one thing in common...I hate to be reduntant...but when one 'believes' something...it requires an equal amount of 'disbelief' of something else...hence...the 'I am right and everyone else is wrong' mindset.

You claim to know the unknowable. I claim to know that logic dictates that it isn't possible for one to know.

Christians, Muslims and Jews thrive on "beliefs." So do people like you who "believe" "no one can possibly know." Throughout history there have been incalcuable mystics who have actually gone to where the Christians, Muslims and Jews only see in their imagination and they experience God firsthand and in ways that are more "real" than anything you have ever experienced.

How could you possibly know what I have experienced?

Edited by joc

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There are things knowable...and things unknowable.

Says one who doesn't "know."

What happens after death is 'unknowable'.

Wrong again. In the Bible Paul said "I die daily." Do you think that meant something other than what it clearly says?

If one claims to know then they are acting under belief not logic.

And we are batting 1.000. Wrong yet again.

If one claims to know then they are acting under belief not logic.

Boy, you are good at this. Wrong again.

I hate to be reduntant...

Then stop spouting off as an expert on a subject on which ou are completely clueless.

You claim to know the unknowable.

It is only unknowable to one who hasn't experienced it..

I claim to know that logic dictates that it isn't possible for one to know.

Many brilliant people from my parent's and grandparent's generation thought the same thing about what it felt like to walk on the moon. Neil Armstrong knew what to them was "unknowable." Everything was unknowable until the day came when it was finally known by someone. But on this subject you will never become one of them because you would rather pose as an annonymous know-it-all on an obxcure Internet message board than to actually "explore" the subject you falsely claim to understand.

How could you possibly know what I have experienced?

It couldn't possibly be any more clear from your statements. You just wasted dozens of words claiming siomething is "unknowable" that anyone who has experienced knows fully well is very knowable. And I'm not talking about in your imagination. I am talking as real as Neil Armstrong "knew" what he eventually knew about the moon. It has been knowable by many people throughout history, many who were very famous. And it's knowable, and known by many who are living now.

But it's much more fun to play the Internet know-it-all, isn't it? :)

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Says one who doesn't "know."

Wrong again. In the Bible Paul said "I die daily." Do you think that meant something other than what it clearly says?

And we are batting 1.000. Wrong yet again.

Boy, you are good at this. Wrong again.

Then stop spouting off as an expert on a subject on which ou are completely clueless.

It is only unknowable to one who hasn't experienced it..

Many brilliant people from my parent's and grandparent's generation thought the same thing about what it felt like to walk on the moon. Neil Armstrong knew what to them was "unknowable." Everything was unknowable until the day came when it was finally known by someone. But on this subject you will never become one of them because you would rather pose as an annonymous know-it-all on an obxcure Internet message board than to actually "explore" the subject you falsely claim to understand.

It couldn't possibly be any more clear from your statements. You just wasted dozens of words claiming siomething is "unknowable" that anyone who has experienced knows fully well is very knowable. And I'm not talking about in your imagination. I am talking as real as Neil Armstrong "knew" what he eventually knew about the moon. It has been knowable by many people throughout history, many who were very famous. And it's knowable, and known by many who are living now.

But it's much more fun to play the Internet know-it-all, isn't it? :)

There isn't much point in continuing this dialogue...perhaps you and many others have physically died...body in rigormortis...no blood flowing through the veins...no electrical impulses in the brain...and then have come back with knowledge of the hereafter. But I think not. And saying that you know what is after death makes you the 'know-it all' not me. So, I will just leave it at that.

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joc[/sup]' timestamp='1349382059' post='4487991']

There isn't much point in continuing this dialogue...perhaps you and many others have physically died...body in rigormortis...no blood flowing through the veins...no electrical impulses in the brain...and then have come back with knowledge of the hereafter. But I think not. And saying that you know what is after death makes you the 'know-it all' not me. So, I will just leave it at that.

Well, I'm sure that the scientific and medical community will want to know that you have redefined "death" to include the presence of rigamortis. Thousands of doctors will want to stop filing false death certificates. And the hundreds of scientific papers that study the thousands of people who have died and been revived and had "near death" experiences will need to be thrown out since "joc" has rendered them invalid. You are a wealth of knowledge and information. Thanks for sharing your "expertise." :)

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I've believed what 2 Thess. 2 said about it (obviously an interpretation Rev. 13's second beast and its demise in Rev. 19.) The lawless one, will exalt himself above all that is called God and will reveal himself in God's temple, the Church, as God.

Toward the end of the 12th century, the pope (Innocent III) began calling himself the vicar of Christ, standing as a representative of Christ (authoritatively) to rule while Christ is in heaven. This assertion was practiced when an opposing king begged outside the pope's window in the cold, with no shoes on. The pope, back then, believed that he had the authority to crown or depose kings. This would, in a sense, make him a king of kings, a title rightfully claimed by Jesus.

This pope then, with the miraculous help of St. Dominic and St. Francis, convinced many in the Holy Roman Empire that the Roman Church was their only hope of salvation. When it became evident that the Cathars were still growing, the Office of The Inquisition was instituted to find non-Catholics and judge them according to Canon Law. Those who refused were put to death. Those who converted were given back their property (sometimes) and kept a close eye on.

The mark of the beast is evidently the exercise of state religion under impulse of persecution.

Perhaps it isn't one man, but one man's title. And the prophecy of St. Malachy shows that Rome will be destroyed in the end, and Jesus will judge. Paired with Revelation 14, 16, 17, 18, and 19, Jesus will destroy the authority of beast, the false prophet, and the dragon. In other words, all kingdoms will be put under Christ's authority.

Early Christians evidently believed this literally, as do I.

Hi Blue,

There was more to Innocent III than just trying to convince the Roman Empire of the Papacy. The Muslim recapture of Jerusalem in 1187 was to him a divine judgment on the moral lapses of Christian princes. He was also determined to protect what he called "the liberty of the Church" from inroads by secular princes. But I guess that's another thread to discuss!

Edited by Star of the Sea

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Hi Blue,

There was more to Innocent III than just trying to convince the Roman Empire of the Papacy. The Muslim recapture of Jerusalem in 1187 was to him a divine judgment on the moral lapses of Christian princes. He was also determined to protect what he called "the liberty of the Church" from inroads by secular princes. But I guess that's another thread to discuss!

Definitely a valid point. I believe that is highly important to the discussion though. Innocent III laid the finishing touches on what was supposedly the end of the Investiture Controversy (where the Church of Rome, after the embarrasing rule of harlots, sought to wrestle its property and priests from the hands of the government) by establishing the canon law and using the Donation of Constantine (forgery?) to assert his authority.

So, 'the liberty of the Church' was a continuing controversy from two centuries ago. The pope, however, had it in mind to rule the empire. The kings knew that two centuries ago when they saw the increasing influence that the bishop of Rome had among the people. Innocent III secured the financial backing of the Roman Church, the main financial income for the Holy Roman Empire, pretty much allowing him to do whatever he wanted. Fast-forward a century, a Boniface VIII is banking on one of the largest religious scam - The Roman Jubilee. The papacy was rolling in dough after that. He would proclaim through his Bull of 1302, Unam Sanctam, it is "absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman pontiff." Seriously, after making that much money, can you imagine if everyone tithed to the Roman Church?

Incidently, the kings of France and England weren't jiving with it and gave him the boot, starting the 'Babylonian Captivity of the Church,' where the Church was moved to Avignon, France for a good 70 years or so. During that time Europe would be politically and socially transformed by the Great Famine of 1315 and the deadly bubonic plague dubbed 'The Black Death.'

100 years of Papal Supremacy and the most that happened was a few administrators in the Church loaded their pockets. I'm a Christian, and I'm not a fan of slandering the Church. But I want to point out the deeds of these individuals so that their blasphemy of the truth does not convince others that their way was a true representation of Christ's teachings. They were something entirely different. And when you put Germanic soldiers in the office of pope, like was the case with Pope Nicholas I.

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Well, I'm sure that the scientific and medical community will want to know that you have redefined "death" to include the presence of rigamortis. Thousands of doctors will want to stop filing false death certificates. And the hundreds of scientific papers that study the thousands of people who have died and been revived and had "near death" experiences will need to be thrown out since "joc" has rendered them invalid. You are a wealth of knowledge and information. Thanks for sharing your "expertise." :)

I don't care what you say or what 'scientists' or doctors say. Dead is dead. End of ******* story...

!

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I don't care what you say or what 'scientists' or doctors say. Dead is dead. End of ******* story...

!

I know you don't care about what anyone says unless you agree with it but that will probably change someday when you find that they won't let you graduate from high school if you just choose to ignore "facts" just because you don't like them. ;)

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"Why crawl with belief when with a little more effort you can soar by knowing?" ~ Shantidasa

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I don't care what you say or what 'scientists' or doctors say. Dead is dead. End of ******* story...

!

Not true, given the fact that everything in the universe is made of energy and energy cannot be destroyed, my opinion is that nothing really "ends" it only transforms to something else, Principles of the objective universe affect everything equally.
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Not true, given the fact that everything in the universe is made of energy and energy cannot be destroyed, my opinion is that nothing really "ends" it only transforms to something else, Principles of the objective universe affect everything equally.

The Energy doesn't end. When you burn a log for instance. The tree is dead...the wood of the tree is transformed into smoke, ashes, heat, wind, etc. But the tree itself...the 'awareness' if you will of the tree is changed as well. To what? Who knows? But what Shabd Mystic is saying is that dead is not dead. BS. If you 'come back' then you weren't really dead to begin with. That's all I'm saying. The Energy that has manifested itself as 'awareness' of the tree...the Energy that has manifested itself as 'awareness' of the Human Being...That Energy is unchanged...but the wood of the tree has changed...the flexibility of the body has changed...the awareness has also changed...Energy is constantly manifesting and remanifesting itself.

I guess you could 'nutshell' what I believe in this way: The only thing that exists is Energy. Energy is infinite and it manifests itself in an infinite number of forms, on an infinite number of levels, for an infinite number of reasons. Some call this Energy God. I just refer to it as Infinite Energy. But dead is indeed dead. Nothing dead has ever come back to life...never...ever...and never, ever will. Why do you think Energy manifests itself in a living body anyway? Because it is the only way that Life can exist. Shabd Mystic can pretend that he and others have actually died...but their experiences during that time are due to lack of oxygen, etc. That is because Life must be housed in a living body...That is what life is...a living body...In short: Life is necessary for our 'awareness' to exist.

Edited by joc

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The Energy doesn't end. When you burn a log for instance. The tree is dead...the wood of the tree is transformed into smoke, ashes, heat, wind, etc. But the tree itself...the 'awareness' if you will of the tree is changed as well. To what? Who knows? But what Shabd Mystic is saying is that dead is not dead. BS. If you 'come back' then you weren't really dead to begin with. That's all I'm saying. The Energy that has manifested itself as 'awareness' of the tree...the Energy that has manifested itself as 'awareness' of the Human Being...That Energy is unchanged...but the wood of the tree has changed...the flexibility of the body has changed...the awareness has also changed...Energy is constantly manifesting and remanifesting itself.

I guess you could 'nutshell' what I believe in this way: The only thing that exists is Energy. Energy is infinite and it manifests itself in an infinite number of forms, on an infinite number of levels, for an infinite number of reasons. Some call this Energy God. I just refer to it as Infinite Energy. But dead is indeed dead. Nothing dead has ever come back to life...never...ever...and never, ever will. Why do you think Energy manifests itself in a living body anyway? Because it is the only way that Life can exist. Shabd Mystic can pretend that he and others have actually died...but their experiences during that time are due to lack of oxygen, etc. That is because Life must be housed in a living body...That is what life is...a living body...In short: Life is necessary for our 'awareness' to exist.

Gotcha man . . . and agree, reminds me of how different "we" are than everything else, this consciousness/awareness aspect of human beings.
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I think we all have the number of the beast in some way or another. :devil:

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I think we all have the number of the beast in some way or another. :devil:

I live in the 32666 zip code. Does that count? :)

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