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TheCosmicMind

Ice Age Civilization

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Is it theoretically possible that an ice age civilization existed that we don't know about (not necessarily "Atlantis" or anything super advanced). I'm wondering mainly if it's possible that people back then could have created a civilization as advanced as say, Babylon for example, and all traces of it have been lost (again, it doesn't have to have sunk beneath the ocean or anything like that). Many ancient wonders have been lost to time and no traces of them exist anymore (Colossus of Rhodes, Babylonian gardens, etc.). So is it possible that ALL TRACES of some civilization have vanished from that long ago?

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Anything is possible (except licking your elbow).

Given all we know about some of the ealier civilisations is what their conquerors tell us it's possible that the conquerors ended up the conquered and a legacy of desctruction ended with them with no trace of who they themselves conquered.

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Is it theoretically possible that an ice age civilization existed that we don't know about (not necessarily "Atlantis" or anything super advanced). I'm wondering mainly if it's possible that people back then could have created a civilization as advanced as say, Babylon for example, and all traces of it have been lost (again, it doesn't have to have sunk beneath the ocean or anything like that). Many ancient wonders have been lost to time and no traces of them exist anymore (Colossus of Rhodes, Babylonian gardens, etc.). So is it possible that ALL TRACES of some civilization have vanished from that long ago?

Personally I highly doubt it. Take a closer look at your two examples: the Colossus of Rhodes and the Hanging Gardens of Babylon were not civilizations but the products of civilizations. There is abundant evidence for both the polity of Rhodes (part of the wider Greek civilization) and the city of Babylon.

There is every chance that countless bands of hunter-gatherers from the Ice Age left little to no trace of themselves, but there is a considerable difference between Neolithic peoples and the peoples of a true civilization. Any culture that rose to true civilization status invariably left behind traces of itself, due to its sophisticated socio-politics and interactions with other, neighboring peoples. As far as that goes, it's amazing what simple hunter-gatherers left behind for archaeologists to find: everything from the traces of semi-permanent villages to fecal matter and midden heaps.

Think also of the conditions of the Ice Age. Any culture living within the regions that were gripped by the Ice Age had little chance to evolve socially or culturally to something truly sophisticated. The mere act of surviving would've been enough work unto itself.

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I'm inclined to agree. For an example, look at Gobekli Tepe. Testing has placed it as early as 9,000-11,000 B.C., and the last Glacial period ended 10,000 to 15,000 years ago. But, Gobekli isn't part of a civilization. It is just a religious structure that just so happened to be built around the end of the last glacial period. If we can find evidence of a relatively simple yet large complex, why have monuments from a more advanced group or civilization not found been dating to that time or before?

I'm not saying it's impossible, but the evidence as it stands currently points to "no."

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Does anyone think there are older versions of Gobekli Tepe out there left to be discovered?

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Does anyone think there are older versions of Gobekli Tepe out there left to be discovered?

There are similar aged sites in Turkey.

But Turkey/Anatolia appears to be an interesting place for another reason:

Indo-European languages originate in Anatolia

The Indo-European languages belong to one of the widest spread language families of the world. For the last two millenia, many of these languages have been written, and their history is relatively clear. But controversy remains about the time and place of the origins of the family. A large international team, including MPI researcher Michael Dunn, reports the results of an innovative Bayesian phylogeographic analysis of Indo-European linguistic and spatial data. Their paper appears this week in Science.

The majority view in historical linguistics is that the homeland of Indo-European is located in the Pontic steppes (present day Ukraine) around 6,000 years ago. The evidence for this comes from linguistic paleontology: in particular, certain words to do with the technology of wheeled vehicles are arguably present across all the branches of the Indo-European family; and archaeology tells us that wheeled vehicles arose no earlier than this date. The minority view links the origins of Indo-European with the spread of farming from Anatolia 8,000 to 9,500 years ago.

http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.nl/2012/08/indo-european-languages-originate-in.html

Mapping the Origins and Expansion of the Indo-European Language Family

There are two competing hypotheses for the origin of the Indo-European language family. The conventional view places the homeland in the Pontic steppes about 6000 years ago. An alternative hypothesis claims that the languages spread from Anatolia with the expansion of farming 8000 to 9500 years ago. We used Bayesian phylogeographic approaches, together with basic vocabulary data from 103 ancient and contemporary Indo-European languages, to explicitly model the expansion of the family and test these hypotheses. We found decisive support for an Anatolian origin over a steppe origin. Both the inferred timing and root location of the Indo-European language trees fit with an agricultural expansion from Anatolia beginning 8000 to 9500 years ago. These results highlight the critical role that phylogeographic inference can play in resolving debates about human prehistory.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/337/6097/957

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I'd say it was possible, but unlikely. As for such a Precursor culture to have escaped detection, it would have had to have existed somewhere that is not somewhere currently being lived in. Like in a rainforest in Africa, or maybe a Stone Age city now covered by the Russian Taiga. Basically, if it had existed in any of the various currently inhabited areas of the world we'd have found some evidence of it by now.

I know some claim various sunken coastlines hold the key to older civilizations, but I've never seen any good proof of any of the various Pre-Historic Sunken Cities.

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As others have stated, yes it's possible, but it's kind of unlikely. There's a reason civilizations started to pop up after the ice age, and it has to do with things being more liveable; there's also no real evidence for it.

Also, while it's interesting to look at something like Gobekli Tepe and wonder if it's the byproduct of an early civilization, I think it's actually more likely that it could predate what is considered civilization. What I've read indicates that it's basically a church built by a group of farmers (or possibly hunter-gatherers), and there really aren't any other signs of civilazation found around it.

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There are over 20 circles discovered at Gobekli tepe so far, some built over others and covering an area of about 20 acres. It's believed to have been a complex in use for over a thousand years.

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Considering how much coast line has been lost since the last ice age I would say it is possible that a civilization could be lost to us. How long did it take sea levels to rise? Suppose you lived in a coastal city near the end of the ice age, would u have noticed rising sea levels?

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Considering how much coast line has been lost since the last ice age I would say it is possible that a civilization could be lost to us. How long did it take sea levels to rise? Suppose you lived in a coastal city near the end of the ice age, would u have noticed rising sea levels?

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paricularly Sunda in south east Asia

https://www.eeb.ucla...daSeaLevels.htm

where see levels remained between 80-135 meters below todays levels for more than 9,000yrs between 23,000BP and 14,000BP

and in a relatively warm equatorial climate during the last glacial maximum

it could well have been like a garden of eden in those times, and while the land was dry for many thousands of years i don't think it would be likely we'd find evidence of a great megalithic culture

however its possible there may have been a culture something similar to that of Rapa Nui (Easter Island), and a precursor to the mysterious culture that carved the monoliths of Sulawesi http://news.national...omegaliths.html

185536_2103971051147_1601628511_32167980_5833726_n.jpg

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The thing about the ice age was the sparseness of food and such. Which is why most of the people at the time were nomadic. Around the coastlines it could have been possible a civilisation sprung up (due to fish and possibly filtration techniques of salt from water which further could have been used to preserve some foods but this is all speculation), other than that I find it quite unlikely.

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Does anyone know what percentage of the earth's land surface was submerged after the last ice age? Or possibly how much land area in square miles was submerged?

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About scarce food sources along the coast during last iceage is true to a degree, but at certain special places around the world there is almost infinity amounts of food easily acessable. Enough to support large stasjonary villages and cities.

Two of these places are New Foundland Island of Canada in the Atlantic and Røst Island off Norway. It is a proven fact that Røst was icefree during whole last iceage. New Foundland i am not sure, probably not.. The food resource at these two locations are the fish cod. A short period each year the cod gather there to reproduce. A substainable fishing of the east cod tribe alone could in theory support 20-30 million people. The west cod tribe about 10 million. The cod could be easily dried (stockfish) without salt and stored for many years (5 to 10) making it also a valuable in trade. Røst is the first place in Europe where people first settled and gave up the nomadic life because of this resource. 95% of iceage or stoneage Røst is now submerged.

There are probably many more hotspots of food along the worlds coastline and islands with different fish species. If a iceage civilisation did exist i think it must have been close to one of these. To bad all these cities, if existed, lies deep underwater today.

Edited by whitegandalf

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That isn't an entirely impossible notion. It isn't impossible either that in the distant past, some other species was of our level of civilization, and we simply haven't found any trace of it. They are interesting questions, but, given the noted lack of evidence, it is nigh impossible to answer them.

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Yes, I think it is quite possible that the Neanderthals discovered some of these protein hotspots before us, after they left Africa. And created the worlds first civilisation. It may explain their big brains.

Also i dont know the percentage of the total land area submerged since iceage, but i know that 99% of the habitable icefree coastline around the world during last iceage (15.000+ years ago) is submerged today.

Edited by whitegandalf

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Under water, under ice, maybe underground. If they were advanced they may have figured out it was warmer underground. We just haven't found those caves yet.

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Yes, I think it is quite possible that the Neanderthals discovered some of these protein hotspots before us, after they left Africa. And created the worlds first civilisation. It may explain their big brains.

Also i dont know the percentage of the total land area submerged since iceage, but i know that 99% of the habitable icefree coastline around the world during last iceage (15.000+ years ago) is submerged today.

As I recall Neanderthals did not come from Africa. They arose in western Asia and Europe from a previous species (or several species) of Homo which had left Africa.

But a Neanderthal civilization? While there's plentiful evidence for Neanderthals, there's no indication they ever came close to the level of socio-political sophistication required for a civilization to emerge. They were simply hunter-gatherers.

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That isn't an entirely impossible notion. It isn't impossible either that in the distant past, some other species was of our level of civilization, and we simply haven't found any trace of it. They are interesting questions, but, given the noted lack of evidence, it is nigh impossible to answer them.

In a book I read once, Stephen Baxter's Evolution, there's a chapter about a group of Jurrasic period dinosaurs that had attained intelligence, they had a society built around hunting sauropods. They used crude sashes and sharpened sticks. As the continents began to break up and so did the great sauropod herds; along with the killing of the matriarch of the herd, their society was doomed to fail. It was quite an interesting read and very sad if it's happened before in other species but the fact that a species would begin using natural objects as tools that wouldn't be preserved well (especially a carnivore species, why would it want to set up villages if it's prey's always on the move?). An intriguing idea but one that may never be proven.

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As I recall Neanderthals did not come from Africa. They arose in western Asia and Europe from a previous species (or several species) of Homo which had left Africa.

You are correct.

But a Neanderthal civilization? While there's plentiful evidence for Neanderthals, there's no indication they ever came close to the level of socio-political sophistication required for a civilization to emerge. They were simply hunter-gatherers.

Anything is possible. Ass underwater archeology is still at its birth and the sea is less explored than the moon who knows what we will find in the future. We have learned considerly since land archeology birth. We simply dont have enough information yet on the most advanced coast neanderthals (as all sites are underwater) from the relevant period.

Edited by whitegandalf
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Is it theoretically possible that an ice age civilization existed that we don't know about (not necessarily "Atlantis" or anything super advanced). I'm wondering mainly if it's possible that people back then could have created a civilization as advanced as say, Babylon for example, and all traces of it have been lost (again, it doesn't have to have sunk beneath the ocean or anything like that). Many ancient wonders have been lost to time and no traces of them exist anymore (Colossus of Rhodes, Babylonian gardens, etc.). So is it possible that ALL TRACES of some civilization have vanished from that long ago?

Its possible, we are discovering new things all the time. Even if it was there finding it might be hard because time has a way of getting rid of the evidence.
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Anything is possible (except licking your elbow).

Given all we know about some of the ealier civilisations is what their conquerors tell us it's possible that the conquerors ended up the conquered and a legacy of desctruction ended with them with no trace of who they themselves conquered.

Your right I tried licking my elbow and you can't.

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Not so much ice age civilisation but post ice age it is logical and reasonable to assume many 'complex' coastal societies were lost to ocean levels rising. It is also possible in parts of the middle east, the bottle neck where so many groups passed through and occupied, had some proto civilisations that have been somewhat lost...particularly before the implementation of stone. But most high civilisations sprouted out of agriculture, which was a post ice age phenomenon. Im sure many hunter gatherer socities and clans were fairly sophosticated but it takes much high populations, the subsequent spread of technology and group dynamics to produce ancient Rome or Egypt etc.

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