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Mr Walker

Does god have free will?

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well yeah,according to ancient Hindu teachings,there is one particular teaching called EKAM SAT that means god is one ad only one but we know him by many names,and yes god has free will because

in Bhagavad Gita it is stated Humans are subjected to rules of nature but the supreme being is above all this and therefore has free will

welcome and my GOD bless you

In a sense this is also a form of christian theology held by some. God is, to them, all knowing and all powerful, thus allowing god to have free will. For some such people humans may not have free will because it conflicts with gods ability to know the future. Others find a logical escape route from this dichotomy.

In my experience, god is not all powerful and all knowing Because god is a real physicla entity it is limited by the realities of all living things. It/ he can predict the future with some accuracy, but never know it for certain. On the evidence of writing such as the bible stories and and personal experience, God works actively to shape the future, often using human agencies. There would be no need for this if one future was predetermined.

Thank you for the blessing.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Does the christian /jewish/ muslim god, in particular, have free will?

I don't think that god does, mostly because such an entity seems trapped by the rules of its own game.

Do entities labelled god(s), in general, have free will?

Assuming such an entity exists, I'd expect it would have free will.

Personally, I'm not fully convinced there is a god of any kind. I am fairly certain, though, that if a god existed it wouldn't have been behind any religion (all of which are obvious man made creations) and I seriously question why such an entity would have any interest in us at all, let alone acknowledge our existance.

To me a god caring about us makes as much sense as a gardening showing interest in a colony of microbes in a few grains of soil in their garden.

Edited by shadowhive

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I think it would be helpful if you provided your definition of Free Will.

To me free will is simple and clear. Can a n entity form a choice of action without concrete let or hindrance? In other words is there any physical obstruction preventing a human mind from imagining ANY choice of action? I can find none.

Second, is there any physical mechanism which prevents a human trying to act on any thought they have? Again I can find none. Knowedge of consequence is a cautionary/informing force not one which physically prevents action. Death as a consquence of an action comes too late to prevent the exercise of either forming an intent or carring it out. So there are no physical limitations on human free will.

The wider illusion of predestination as an aspect of cause and effect, is an illusion based on human perspective and our current positioning in a linear time line; between a concrete past which we assume was the only possible past time line, and a future which is yet to be formed and created. We judge the future as we see the past but they are differnt entities Our past was once our future As a future it was changable and alterable Only past things are unchangeable There is no definitive connection between a past nano second of time and a future one. But that is a wider argument .

While a god might be able to compute many alternate futures, it cannot know them, especially when they involve sapient self aware beings who can imagine and create. Thus, gods need to work to achieve their desired outcomes, just as we do They just have more data and a better computing capacity.

Many things are not connected to free will. If i am killed by a volcano erupting suddenly under my house, no will is involved. Free will is a component of our self aware sapience. It exists within our own choices. We dont have a choice about being born or about the free willed intent of another. Eg i cant prevent someone who wants to, from trying to walking into my home and shooting me, but we always have choices about how we think and act In any scenario. How i respond when that intruder enters; how i decide and act, will alter the outcome as much as it can

Those choices are virtually unliimited. Only our failure to recognise and act on this knowledge restricts our choices. But that does not deny free will. It exists even if we do not fully utilise it. just as a person who refuses to speak is still capable of speech.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Well, I just caught Arceus, the god of Pokemon, so I say no, cause I control him!

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I don't think that god does, mostly because such an entity seems trapped by the rules of its own game.

Assuming such an entity exists, I'd expect it would have free will.

Personally, I'm not fully convinced there is a god of any kind. I am fairly certain, though, that if a god existed it wouldn't have been behind any religion (all of which are obvious man made creations) and I seriously question why such an entity would have any interest in us at all, let alone acknowledge our existance.

To me a god caring about us makes as much sense as a gardening showing interest in a colony of microbes in a few grains of soil in their garden.

As to the first I agree.

As to the second if you were a space faring sapient being, several millenia more evolved than we are and came across a race of about cromagnon evolutionary level How would YOU deal with them? Mpre to the point how would THEY perceive you and your technologies abilities Sapient beings are curious imaginative and creative. They like to comunicate. They have a capacity and even a tendency to care for other entities, especially other self aware entities. The ability to communicate is a part of what made them self aware and sapient .

Would you care about such beings, and if you did care, would you chose to leave them alone and make their own mistakes, or would you intervene, as much as you could, to educate and to guide the race. Given that you are NOT omnisicient and omnipotent, but seem so to such a peoples, how would you deal with them, and how could you stop them seeing you as gods? Or perhaps, if it motivated them more emotionally and viscerally, would you actually encourage such a belief, in order to help their social evolution and help them become more constructive, less destructive, peoples What if you knew that a common religion could reduce conflict, and create social cohesion, speeding up the growth of civilization and human development?

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Well, I just caught Arceus, the god of Pokemon, so I say no, cause I control him!

How does your capturing him negate his free will? :devil:

Tomorrow, won't he have "escaped ", and you will have to do it all over again?

Forgive my ignorance of Pokemon game- play.

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no i don't believe god is self aware. self is ego and god is not a person, as i said earlier, so therefore god does not have ego so therefore 'self' awareness is irrelevent too.

i believe god is an all conscious entity although entity is not the word i would use. and no i am not saying god must have free will;. as you must have read in my original post i said god cannot possibly have free will because that is a mortal concept.

Mmmn, I dont really understand your personal construct/understanding of god from your posts so far.

If god is conscious, is it not self aware and sapient? Does your god know itself? Does it question? Is it creative imaginative etc? How did it reach the state it is in now? Did it self generate, complete and as it is now? Has it always existed completed and as it is now? Did it evolve and is it presently capable of change or is it perfected and incapapble of cahnge

And many human linguistic constructs can be, and are, applied to both physical and metaphysical entities Eg I can call an apple red or say i am in love and others will know what i mean.

Does your god recognise or care about elemants of the universe outside of /apart from itslef or which is not aware of its existence.

I fit recognises the separation of self from others does it care about self; does it care about other?

If it cares, does that motivate it to act? Is it capable of physical action/manipulation of the universe?

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Mmmn, I dont really understand your personal construct/understanding of god from your posts so far.

If god is conscious, is it not self aware and sapient? Does your god know itself? Does it question? Is it creative imaginative etc? How did it reach the state it is in now? Did it self generate, complete and as it is now? Has it always existed completed and as it is now? Did it evolve and is it presently capable of change or is it perfected and incapapble of cahnge

And many human linguistic constructs can be, and are, applied to both physical and metaphysical entities Eg I can call an apple red or say i am in love and others will know what i mean.

Does your god recognise or care about elemants of the universe outside of /apart from itslef or which is not aware of its existence.

I fit recognises the separation of self from others does it care about self; does it care about other?

If it cares, does that motivate it to act? Is it capable of physical action/manipulation of the universe?

no offense but i think you're just asking the same thing overandoverandover. i believe i've answered sufficiently when i said god is not a person. self is a human thing, an ego thing. god has no ego so anything that you relate to self, as in self awareness etc is a human thing and is limited to humans in my opinion.

so stop microanalysing what isn't there ok?

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no offense but i think you're just asking the same thing overandoverandover. i believe i've answered sufficiently when i said god is not a person. self is a human thing, an ego thing. god has no ego so anything that you relate to self, as in self awareness etc is a human thing and is limited to humans in my opinion.

so stop microanalysing what isn't there ok?

You probably have a clear inner picture of what you feel god is, but the description you have given doesnt contain enough information to transmit that understanding to me.

Of course that is your prerogative and i wont even question your motivation. Your god is your god, however you envisage it to be. I am curious about all constructs and perceptions of god by humans. There are so many of them. That is why I asked the open ended questions I did in the op. I will go back over your posts and see if i can understand your concept of god better, from what you have already explained.

To me, arguing that god cant have free will because free will is a human conceptual construct and label, is like saying a snake can't be black because the colour black is a human conceptual construct and label. Yes it is, but a snake can still be black or not black. And a non human entity can have, or not have, free will.

As an aside, do you think apes dolphins etc will evolve a sense of self awareness, as they evolve human level sapience? What about an artificial intelligence with human level intelligence and sapience? Will it have an understanding of self/nonself ie a sense of self awareness? Will it ask, "who am I? What is my purpose in being etc?"

Ps, if any other readers want to throw in an opinion on these questions, Id be fascinated to hear some different views.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Ok but you believe that himans have free will, and cannot escape responsibilty for their choices and actions? If you were asked to design/construct a god, would you build free will into your design/ construct ? Why /why not?

First off...there are times when "**** happens"...like just because you're drunk and on drugs, doesnt mean the accident wouldnt have happened when you're sober. Kidding....no sometimes accidents happen and you didnt have "free will"...more like being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That may seem like "fate." But when you start to think everything is pre-ordained, then I have the green light to kill my neighbors dog for barking at 3am, or even my neighbor, because I lack freewill, therefore god must have wanted it this way.

So in creating a god....a god can do as he/she pleases with his/her creations. Which is where you have me in a quandry. For in order for US (his creations) to have free-will, he has to give away his own power over us. God preventing strife and starvation and indecency to fellow human beings would again be taking away our free will, unless he created us to be free from evil. Which clearly he has not. Therefore there can be no god if there is any type of free will.

Its only 8 am, I hope I stated what I mean clearly enough. If not - its because as a mule I lack the free will you humans have...

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As to the second if you were a space faring sapient being, several millenia more evolved than we are and came across a race of about cromagnon evolutionary level How would YOU deal with them? Mpre to the point how would THEY perceive you and your technologies abilities Sapient beings are curious imaginative and creative. They like to comunicate. They have a capacity and even a tendency to care for other entities, especially other self aware entities. The ability to communicate is a part of what made them self aware and sapient

If I was such an entity, sure I'd take an interest. I'd study them and try to be incredible subtle about it (anyone that's seen Star Trek will know how dangerous the possibility of detection could be).

However, after stufficient study, I'd more on. Now are you really trying to suggest that such an entity would not only not move on, but stick around for millenia? For what purpose?

Would you care about such beings, and if you did care, would you chose to leave them alone and make their own mistakes, or would you intervene, as much as you could, to educate and to guide the race. Given that you are NOT omnisicient and omnipotent, but seem so to such a peoples, how would you deal with them, and how could you stop them seeing you as gods? Or perhaps, if it motivated them more emotionally and viscerally, would you actually encourage such a belief, in order to help their social evolution and help them become more constructive, less destructive, peoples What if you knew that a common religion could reduce conflict, and create social cohesion, speeding up the growth of civilization and human development?

It would depend on the level of the mistake. Everyone makes mistakes and I don't feel it would be my responsibility to correct every mistake a species would make. The exception would probably be if the species was close to self destruction or had gained access to something that would cause damage beyond there planet. Then it would be necessary to intervene (especially with the latter) although again, I'd try and do it in a way that was subtle.

I'd do all my best to not given them such ideas and I'd certainly not encourage them to believe such things. Why? Look at what religion has done on this planet. Sure, some good things have resulted, but there has been an absurd amount of infighting and trouble caused between them that they come across like children. Giving such a race religion would not just set them back, but ultimately do much more harm than good.

Again, look at Earth. When we went to America we found the native Americans. Instead of leaving them in peace to their own religion, we decided they needed a 'common reliugion' and forced it upon them, causing great harm to them as a people and severely marginalising them. I have no doubt that an attempt at a 'common religion' would result in the same disaster in another species and I would want absolutely no part in destroying another race's culture in such a way.

What would you do in that situation?

Edited by shadowhive

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If I was such an entity, sure I'd take an interest. I'd study them and try to be incredible subtle about it (anyone that's seen Star Trek will know how dangerous the possibility of detection could be).

However, after stufficient study, I'd more on. Now are you really trying to suggest that such an entity would not only not move on, but stick around for millenia? For what purpose?

It would depend on the level of the mistake. Everyone makes mistakes and I don't feel it would be my responsibility to correct every mistake a species would make. The exception would probably be if the species was close to self destruction or had gained access to something that would cause damage beyond there planet. Then it would be necessary to intervene (especially with the latter) although again, I'd try and do it in a way that was subtle.

I'd do all my best to not given them such ideas and I'd certainly not encourage them to believe such things. Why? Look at what religion has done on this planet. Sure, some good things have resulted, but there has been an absurd amount of infighting and trouble caused between them that they come across like children. Giving such a race religion would not just set them back, but ultimately do much more harm than good.

Again, look at Earth. When we went to America we found the native Americans. Instead of leaving them in peace to their own religion, we decided they needed a 'common reliugion' and forced it upon them, causing great harm to them as a people and severely marginalising them. I have no doubt that an attempt at a 'common religion' would result in the same disaster in another species and I would want absolutely no part in destroying another race's culture in such a way.

What would you do in that situation?

Ive watched every episode of startrek and its derivatives several times. As a kid it was one tv programme i was alowed to stay up and watch because my dad watched it. I never thought their non interventionist policy was either right or workable It seemed to me like a philosophy dreamed up by some leftwing hollywood writer who believed that humans had no right to try and help or improve the lot of others in the universe. MAybe it had a deeper underpinings as in an anti colonial philosophy but it stilll didnt work for me.

Any way I can see your pov but I am not sure I agree with it. Any space faring race has obviously survived its infancy and troubled teenage years, and managed to combine impressive technology with that survival Something humans are not yet guaranteed of. Surely such a race could offer a lot to more primitive peoples in many facets of understanding.

Humans have always had religions, from neandertal and cromagnon times. While there isn't any real evidence of it, It is possible that advanced spacefaring races might pass on forms of religion they knew would promote a species ultimate survival. I like spock's world view, and empathise with the vulcans. As our technology grows, primitive emotional responses are not just inappropriate they can be deadly to both individuals and to our species

A bit of a side bar i guess. but then i see god as a powerful alien entity with a long term commitment to, and relationship with, the human race. PArt of its purpose in its dealings with us is the uplift of humanity to a saner more rational species.

In any contact one civilization will dominatem as was found during the european expansion on earth Beliefs adapt to the level of civilization, and especially technology of a species. Indigenous and aboriginal belieds simply became unworkable when confronted with european technology knolwedge and power. If earth is contacted by a space faring race, our own beliefs will be altered. If we are the space faring race, our beliefs will alter those of the indigenous inhabitants. It is historically inevitable. A belif is a construct based on knowledge understanding and ones place in the surrounding environment

Find yourself facing new (more advanced) extensive knowledge and technology, and not just your understanding of your place in the universe, but your associated spiritual and religious beliefs, based on that understanding, will be altered without anyone having to try and convert you.

In the end, most humans in a modern technological society are far better off, by all physical parameters, than those in a hunter gatherer one. Not as happy, perhaps, but that is another issue.

I suspect humans need to evolve/ create a new spiritual dimension which is a better fit to our current knowledge bases and technology, and enables us to be happy because we can once again have an understanding of our place and purpose in life.

One of the biggest causes of human unhappiness in the present world is our disassociation from so many things, especially from society, neighbours, and community; but also from our sense of self and true identity. Past humans had all these things, and despite very harsh physical conditions (by our standards) were far happier in their lives.

Edited by Mr Walker

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If I was such an entity, sure I'd take an interest. ...

However, after stufficient study, I'd more on. Now are you really trying to suggest that such an entity would not only not move on, but stick around for millenia? For what purpose? ...

~~~ ...

For what purpose would God "stick around for millennia"? Well, according to Bible Scriptures, God created Mankind with the purpose of bringing many children into his God family. That's as good a reason as any for staying around till they are born into his family.

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First off...there are times when "**** happens"...like just because you're drunk and on drugs, doesnt mean the accident wouldnt have happened when you're sober. Kidding....no sometimes accidents happen and you didnt have "free will"...more like being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That may seem like "fate." But when you start to think everything is pre-ordained, then I have the green light to kill my neighbors dog for barking at 3am, or even my neighbor, because I lack freewill, therefore god must have wanted it this way.

So in creating a god....a god can do as he/she pleases with his/her creations. Which is where you have me in a quandry. For in order for US (his creations) to have free-will, he has to give away his own power over us. God preventing strife and starvation and indecency to fellow human beings would again be taking away our free will, unless he created us to be free from evil. Which clearly he has not. Therefore there can be no god if there is any type of free will.

Its only 8 am, I hope I stated what I mean clearly enough. If not - its because as a mule I lack the free will you humans have...

Interesting thoughts. I would tend to think the same if i did not know god existed.

So my rationale is that gods are not omniscient and omnipotent, they are simply older wiser and more evolved sapient beings. Some will say this disqualifies them as gods, but of course it does not. Humans have a wide range of parameters for what is a god. The norse, egyptian, greek, and roman gods, for example, were not omnisicient nor omnipotent. They had many of the flaws of humanity.

ANother theological pov is that gods could overide human free will, but chose not to. In my experience god cant override my free will. If he wants to change outcomes for me, he has to work with me, or else change my environment, to change those outcomes. If he wants to change my mind he has to work at educating me. He cant just take control of my mind and change it. However if he wants to say save my life he can do that without affecting my free will, by altering the environment around me.

So, if for example god warns me of an oncoming truck but i refuse to listen, rather tha try and force me to avoid the truck, he simply alters its trajectory to miss me, Only on very rare occasions that I have heard of, does god physically intervene, overiding a persons free will, and for example pushes them out of the way of a speeding car or a falling piano.

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For what purpose would God "stick around for millennia"? Well, according to Bible Scriptures, God created Mankind with the purpose of bringing many children into his God family. That's as good a reason as any for staying around till they are born into his family.

Why do that though? If god wanted a family why not just make one? Why make a middle step?

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For what purpose would God "stick around for millennia"? Well, according to Bible Scriptures, God created Mankind with the purpose of bringing many children into his God family. That's as good a reason as any for staying around till they are born into his family.

Any fully sapient, caring and compassionate entity, even a human being, would do this. Add in the element of gods creation and you have a very powerful rationale, but it is not absolutely necessary. if we found a primitive species on another planet surely we would do our best to evolve it and ensure its survival growth and prosperity. If not, then it just demonstrates our own immaturity and lack of readiness to care for others.

I dont know god's intent or motivation, although i know what is expressed in many religious forms and certainly this is the motivation attributed to the christian god. It makes sense to me. The whole metaphorical/analagous explanation of god as a father, and humans as, first infants, and then older children is, I think, both excellent and accurate.

Personally i have found god to be compassionate caring and loving. He also manifests as a mentor and teacher. The closest parallel i have for god in my life is my physical father (and my mother) All of them stuck around long enough to get the job done because they cared, loved me, and formed a self aware conscious commitment to love me and care for me.

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Why do that though? If god wanted a family why not just make one? Why make a middle step?

My guess is that "moral character" can not be created within sentient beings who are created with the ability to choose their own actions. In my opinion Character has to be developed through growth and experience; or else these beings would be robot-like beings with pre-programmed behaviour. Would you (or God) want such a pre-programmed family?

This is only my guess at an answer to your question, Shadowhive. Scriptures do not go into these details.

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Ive watched every episode of startrek and its derivatives several times. As a kid it was one tv programme i was alowed to stay up and watch because my dad watched it. I never thought their non interventionist policy was either right or workable It seemed to me like a philosophy dreamed up by some leftwing hollywood writer who believed that humans had no right to try and help or improve the lot of others in the universe. MAybe it had a deeper underpinings as in an anti colonial philosophy but it stilll didnt work for me.

Any way I can see your pov but I am not sure I agree with it. Any space faring race has obviously survived its infancy and troubled teenage years, and managed to combine impressive technology with that survival Something humans are not yet guaranteed of. Surely such a race could offer a lot to more primitive peoples in many facets of understanding.

I'm not saying it coudn't offer something and I'm certainly not saying we shou;dn't help other peoples. What I am saying is we have to be very, very careful about how we go about it. Something that could improve our lives, might not necessarily improve the lives of another race. For instance, we might encounter a race with increased sensititvity to certain wavelengths, in which case our very technology would be unintentionally) harmful to them. That's just one example and there'd be many, many others.

So I think we have to be very careful about how we go about such 'help' because while we think we could be helping, we could end up doing the opposite. Any race that has achieved such advances would also be aware that such intervention has to be done with great care.

Humans have always had religions, from neandertal and cromagnon times. While there isn't any real evidence of it, It is possible that advanced spacefaring races might pass on forms of religion they knew would promote a species ultimate survival. I like spock's world view, and empathise with the vulcans. As our technology grows, primitive emotional responses are not just inappropriate they can be deadly to both individuals and to our species.

I'm not surprised you empathise with the vulcans, due to your dim view of emotions.

Again, though great care must be taken. To use a Star Trek example to make my point. Imagine the Vulcans went to the Klingons and tried to pass on their 'religion'. How do you think the Klingons would react to that?

A bit of a side bar i guess. but then i see god as a powerful alien entity with a long term commitment to, and relationship with, the human race. PArt of its purpose in its dealings with us is the uplift of humanity to a saner more rational species.

Well if such a thing is true, I must say it's done a terrible job of it.

In any contact one civilization will dominatem as was found during the european expansion on earth Beliefs adapt to the level of civilization, and especially technology of a species. Indigenous and aboriginal belieds simply became unworkable when confronted with european technology knolwedge and power. If earth is contacted by a space faring race, our own beliefs will be altered. If we are the space faring race, our beliefs will alter those of the indigenous inhabitants. It is historically inevitable. A belif is a construct based on knowledge understanding and ones place in the surrounding environment

Find yourself facing new (more advanced) extensive knowledge and technology, and not just your understanding of your place in the universe, but your associated spiritual and religious beliefs, based on that understanding, will be altered without anyone having to try and convert you.

Such altering is rather dangerous. There's a right way of going about it and there's a wrong way of goig about it. History has proven that we seem to prefer doing it the 'wrong' way, which ooften results in lose of life. I'd rather that not happen again.

In the end, most humans in a modern technological society are far better off, by all physical parameters, than those in a hunter gatherer one. Not as happy, perhaps, but that is another issue.

I suspect humans need to evolve/ create a new spiritual dimension which is a better fit to our current knowledge bases and technology, and enables us to be happy because we can once again have an understanding of our place and purpose in life.

I agree in that sesne we are better off.

Do I think that needs to happen though? To an extent. Most moden religions do need to evolve, because they are rapidly becoming outdated and stuck in the past. But I honestly think we'd be better off just shaking them off altogether. Maybe something new would be better, but I dunno.

One of the biggest causes of human unhappiness in the present world is our disassociation from so many things, especially from society, neighbours, and community; but also from our sense of self and true identity. Past humans had all these things, and despite very harsh physical conditions (by our standards) were far happier in their lives.

And the only way of solving those problems is a common religion?

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My guess is that "moral character" can not be created within sentient beings who are created with the ability to choose their own actions. In my opinion Character has to be developed through growth and experience; or else these beings would be robot-like beings with pre-programmed behaviour. Would you (or God) want such a pre-programmed family?

This is only my guess at an answer to your question, Shadowhive. Scriptures do not go into these details.

That would be understandable. However the big problem I have with that, is what christians claim happens after death. Either a: most of us get sent to a spiritual death or b: people get 'cleansed' of their negative sides. So if the point is that growth and experience, and god wants us to have it, why erase it at the first oppportunity?

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That would be understandable. However the big problem I have with that, is what christians claim happens after death. Either a: most of us get sent to a spiritual death or b: people get 'cleansed' of their negative sides. So if the point is that growth and experience, and god wants us to have it, why erase it at the first oppportunity?

Neither of the choices you present here are actual teachings from Scripture.That said, most mainline Christian denomination do teach variations of what you post.

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Neither of the choices you present here are actual teachings from Scripture.That said, most mainline Christian denomination do teach variations of what you post.

As is all too often with your posts, you tell half a story.

Ok, if neither are actual teachings from scripture do you care to share what the teaching is?

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You probably have a clear inner picture of what you feel god is, but the description you have given doesnt contain enough information to transmit that understanding to me.

of course i have a clear understanding of what i think god is. it's my 'thought' afterall. it isn't my intention to make you understand it. you asked if we believe god has free will and i answered that question. i don't feel it's necessary to convince you of my belief.

To me, arguing that god cant have free will because free will is a human conceptual construct and label, is like saying a snake can't be black because the colour black is a human conceptual construct and label. Yes it is, but a snake can still be black or not black. And a non human entity can have, or not have, free will.

ok let me rephrase it. instead of human use the word mortal. there, easier?

As an aside, do you think apes dolphins etc will evolve a sense of self awareness, as they evolve human level sapience? What about an artificial intelligence with human level intelligence and sapience? Will it have an understanding of self/nonself ie a sense of self awareness? Will it ask, "who am I? What is my purpose in being etc?"

i think apes and dolphins already have some sense of self. they are social creatures, and i believe in order to be a social creature you must have a sense of individuality. please don't ask me to digress to explain that cuz i have only had one cup of coffee so far today

ok, in a nutshell.

god is a force, not a 'person'. i believe god is made up of all of our consciousness. not god's own consciousness. god is not an entity sitting somewhere having a tea and thinking about stuff. i do not believe god manipulates or interferes in any way with things that go on here with us mortal beings.

that is the simplistic version of my belief but this thread is about whether i believe that god has free will, not who or what i believe god is.

Ps, if any other readers want to throw in an opinion on these questions, Id be fascinated to hear some different views.

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I'm not saying it coudn't offer something and I'm certainly not saying we shou;dn't help other peoples. What I am saying is we have to be very, very careful about how we go about it. Something that could improve our lives, might not necessarily improve the lives of another race. For instance, we might encounter a race with increased sensititvity to certain wavelengths, in which case our very technology would be unintentionally) harmful to them. That's just one example and there'd be many, many others.

So I think we have to be very careful about how we go about such 'help' because while we think we could be helping, we could end up doing the opposite. Any race that has achieved such advances would also be aware that such intervention has to be done with great care.

I'm not surprised you empathise with the vulcans, due to your dim view of emotions.

Again, though great care must be taken. To use a Star Trek example to make my point. Imagine the Vulcans went to the Klingons and tried to pass on their 'religion'. How do you think the Klingons would react to that?

Well if such a thing is true, I must say it's done a terrible job of it.

Such altering is rather dangerous. There's a right way of going about it and there's a wrong way of goig about it. History has proven that we seem to prefer doing it the 'wrong' way, which ooften results in lose of life. I'd rather that not happen again.

I agree in that sesne we are better off.

Do I think that needs to happen though? To an extent. Most moden religions do need to evolve, because they are rapidly becoming outdated and stuck in the past. But I honestly think we'd be better off just shaking them off altogether. Maybe something new would be better, but I dunno.

And the only way of solving those problems is a common religion?

I agree with a lot of this. human history and the colonial period demonstrates the problem. And i think startrek was influenced by this history, But times are changing a bit Today there is a more interventist view, partly in response to more modern understandings about human sociology and cultures.

I imagine the klingons would react violently. Hardly a surprise. In startrek ALL cultural responses were valued. In practice some are more positive than others. I tended to see the klingons as galactic bully boys. I think the viulcans and klingons were meant to represent the two alternate aspects of human nature. Our primeaval evolved responses, and those we are evolving as rational and self aware beings.

Perhaps god has not done a great job. The "proof" wil be whether we survive the next couple of centuries and do manage to get off world.

The altering i was speaking of comes from internal adjustment and is inevitable when two different cultures clash, especially where one has a clear technological advantage.

Humans cant shake religious belief while we think as we are evolved to do. It is inhernt in how we think and in our language . We are programmed from birth to relate to our environment in this way.

No not necessarily a common religion, that was a different point. A religion or form of spirtituality which works for educated modern, inteligent beings with a great database of knowledge and a scientific understanding of the world. A religion or sense of spirituality which enables us to be as happy content and adjusted as christianity (as one example) enabled people to be for 2000 years, and as earlier religions worked for people prior to christianity. Less tha 10% of modern humans claim to be atheists. All the rest acknowledge either a god or a spiritual element in their lives and in their view of the world. But today it doesnt seem to work as effectively as it once did. And in the material west, suicide and depression are among the highest causes of death and unhappiness, It really seems that humans (unless they are physically reconstructed) cant live full lives without a spiritual/religious element, perhaps to make sense of their lives.

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Thanks for your last reply, j girl. That made sense to me, and i can understand what you are getting at.

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As is all too often with your posts, you tell half a story.

Ok, if neither are actual teachings from scripture do you care to share what the teaching is?

Shadowhive, you have been on UM a long time. Perhaps you simply have not read any of my previous posts on this very subject. Below are a few of the many posts I have made on this theme. Why not do a word search through my posts, if you are really interested in my thoughts.

Regards,

Karlis

QUOTE (itsnotoutthere @ Mar 21 2008, 10:04 PM)

So by that definition if you believe in the above & your lifelong partner or wife & children did not share your beliefs & say you were all killed in a car smash, then presumably you would accend to heaven, & your loved ones would decend to hell spending an eternity in physical agony.

Would you still be in a state of bliss in heaven knowing this?

Would you still want to belong to that exclusive club?

-=-=-=-

(Karlis replies)

Well, what you write may well be what is believed by some "Christian believers". My take is quite different, and I don't expect too many people to believe what I believe. So -- taking a deep breath -- here are my thoughts on your scenario:

* The whole family killed in the car smash remain dead till Jesus returns.

* At Christ's return, the believer is resurrected as an immortal spirit being (thus becoming born-again child of God the Father), and meets Jesus "in the clouds". They all descend upon the Mount of Olives at Jerusalem.

* The resurrected, born-again children of God (now spirit beings) will "rule" the nations of the Earth for 1000 years.

* The rest of the dead remain dead (without any consciousness) during this 1000 years.

* After the 1000 year period, all other humans who ever lived are resurrected back to life, as mortal humans. They will be given total knowledge of the past history, and full memory of the role they lived out in their earlier life.

* From that point on, all these resurrected humans will have to make a choice: either to live according to God's way of life, or to choose otherwise. This is what I believe is the "time of judgment" -- their one and only time to choose "salvation" (eternal life as spirit beings); or to knowingly choose the second death.

* After an indeterminate period of time, those who have accepted God's way are also resurrected as spirit beings (children of God). The rest of mandkind remain as mortals. This planet then will be set on fire, and will burn till all is burned; and when all oxygen is consumed, the fire ends. This is the second death in the lake of fire for those who are left behind.

* Then "the new earth" -- this same planet renewed by God, etc., etc.

-=-=-

cool.gif

QUOTE (JoeyBombs @ Jun 3 2008, 09:35 PM)

Karlis - That may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read

Bringing forth children who will become immortal beings in Gods Family!!!

What the f....?

The reason God cares for mankind is that he's creating Immortal beings?

Is that what you're trying to tell me?

Where are they then?

Am I one?

If he cares so much why is their all the bad sh** going on everywhere?

Oh yeah that's right.... He shows he cares be creating these non-existant immortal children

I don't blame God

I've got RE qualifications and have served at mass - I've seen religion up close

Then I got to the age of reason - and reasoned that religion is ridiculous!

Karlis - I'm sorry... but you're diluded

GOD DOESN'T CARE

Read it - believe it

Look outside your window on see it

Turn on your TV and witness it

It's out there my friend wink2.gif

-=-=-=-

(Karlis replies to the above)

Hi Joey B -- Not that the following is likely to change your opinions, but read it anyway.

(ESV) Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:

Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

(MKJV) Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,

Joh 5:29 and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.

(MKJV) Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.

Rom 8:17 And if we are children, then we are heirs; heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.

1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

1Co 15:35 But someone will say, How are the dead raised up, and with what body do they come?

1Co 15:36 Foolish one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.

1Co 15:37 And what you sow, you do not sow the body that is going to be, but a bare grain (perhaps of wheat or of some of the rest).

1Co 15:38 And God gives it a body as it has pleased Him, and to each of the seeds its own body.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh; but one kind of flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fish, and another of birds.

1Co 15:40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly is truly different, and that of the earthly different;

1Co 15:41 one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

1Co 15:42 So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;

1Co 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:50 And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.

What are your thoughts, Joey B?

By the way -- did you use similarly coarse language while you were serving at mass. Hope you don't speak like that to your Mom and Dad. angry.gif

Regards,

Karlis

-=-=-=-

QUOTE (universal legend @ Nov 2 2008, 04:41 AM)

Do you belive in life after death?...........coment..............

(Karlis replies to the above post)

In my opinion, there are two answers to your question universal legend:

First answer is that when people die now, they are dead as a dead dog ... non-sentient, and their consciousness ceases to exist.

Second answer is that all people who die will be resurrected at a future time; and it is important to understand that there is more than one resurrection.

***The "first" resurrection will be of those who died with God's Holy Spirit within them, at Jesus' next coming. They will be resurrected as immortal spirit beings, and will be children of God in God's family.

***Another resurrection will be a thousand years after Jesus' return, when people without the Spirit of God within them will be resurrected as mortal humans. These people will be susceptible to death at that time, exactly as we are susceptible to death now.

I won't go into this any deeper here, because I think I have given a very basic answer to your question. Of course, there is much more to be said. thumbsup.gif

Kind regards,

Karlis

-=-=-=-

Hi folks – here are parts of my previous posts on this thread, concerning my personal opinion based on Bible Scriptures God developing Godly character in Man. Hope what I wrote makes some sense as to how God is growing his future Family, through developing character in mortal humans, who eventually will be 'born again' as immortal spirit children of God the Father.

… in "growing", we grow in spiritual character. Or, by not choosing to exercise free will in a positive way, we stunt our spiritual growth.

Either way, our character grows or fails to grow -- and that growth will determine our future. That is my view concerning "free will", folks.

… if one does not believe in the God of the Bible then one's choices will not be based on the principles laid down by that Creator God. That person will do what seems right in his own mind.

However, this is in line with Bible teachings as I see these teachings; such a person will live out their life according to their perceptions of "right and wrong", and will die, to be later resurrected back to a mortal physical body. Then the principles will be revealed to them by God, and they will have their first and only opportunity to chose their eternal future.

According to the Bible there is only one true Creator God who has laid out Man's destiny, and given Man the choice. God has advised: choose life.

By the way -- as I see it, there is no "second chance", according to Bible Scriptures. Once a person understands the way to salvation (immortal life in God's Family), but consciously rejects it, that is the end of the story for that person's future, since Christ will not shed His blood of reconciliation a second time for anybody.

For some specific reason God has not revealed God's plan of salvation to the majority of humanity -- don't ask me why not. It's just the way it seems to be.

For instance, one of the reasons why Jesus spoke in parables to the crowds, was so that they would not understand about salvation, and not repent and be saved, during their lifetime.

I wonder how many on these boards see what I mean?

Kind regards to one and all,

Karlis

-=-=-

QUOTE (Mistydawn @ Jan 27 2009, 05:11 AM)

So you don't have to die first then? Maybe he just meant, to be born in the spirit, us mortals have got to die first?

(Karlis replies to the above post)

Hi Mistydawn, according to the Bible you do not *have* to die first. According to the Bible, if one has the Spirit of God at the time when Jesus next returns, that person will be changed from a mortal, physical being (as you and I are now) into immortal spirit beings ... children of God the Father, in God's family.

Those who died with the Spirit of God within them, will be resurrected as immortals when Jesus returns.

In my personal opinion, the idea that one is "born in the spirit" (as charismatics teach) is non-Scriptural.

But, that's how I read the Bible; most people hold different views, original.gif

Karlis

-=-=-

QUOTE (Abby Mac @ Feb 10 2009, 03:02 PM)

~~~ ...

... We were created, in his image, to be companions, to fellowship with him. ...

(Karlis replies to the above post)

Hi Abby Mac, Scriptures say a great deal more than that, as to why God created Mankind. original.gif

Scriptures state that Mankind is intended to become literal children of God -- immortal spirit beings, who will be "born" (a second time) into the very family of God the Father; with Jesus as our elder brother. That in fact is the reason that those who have received the Spirit of God (while they are still living, breathing humans) have the right to address God as "Abba" ... aka as their literal Father.

Having written the above, I realise it is a very broad statement, and to back it up would require quoting lots of Scriptures; and to do that would become preaching the Bible. So, I'll leave it at that, and anyone who is interested these days has lots and lots of Bible study-sources available on the Internet to find out all of that through their own study. thumbsup.gif

Kind regards,

Karlis

-=-=-=-

QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Apr 29 2009, 01:46 AM)

I understand you .. from the gnostic interpretation. in short we are all gods . no different than Jesus. ...

(Karlis replies to the above post)

Hi Ripley, eight bits, Sheri, Dr. D, Gideon Mage, Danielost, and anyone else I may have missed – according to the Bible we are all *potential* Gods. Those people whose human spirit is impregnated with God's Spirit, have been conceived with the imperishable 'seed' of the Spirit of God. These people will be 'born again' as immortal spirit beings aka children of God, at Jesus' return … then they will be Gods, as per the Scriptures.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

And

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

The problem is, all humanity has sinned, with the result that:

Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

The 'Good news' aka the Gospel, is that Jesus has paid our penalty for us, if we are willing to accept that payment. In that case we will not suffer the second death but have the *potential* to be born into God's family as God's children aka as Gods, at Jesus' next coming.

Too simple, maybe? original.gif

-=-=-=-

QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Apr 29 2009, 01:46 AM)

Going by that however worshiping Jesus as God would be like worshiping any other human as God.

not to get into the aspect of Idols either .. or worshiping other Gods ...

but the blending in of gnositism with christianity seems overall at odds.. in it's present form. Jesus may very well have been an Essene then that would make sense. Nazareth did have a large number of Essenes. But at the same time the bible has him following Orthodox Judaism rules and not Essene ( like eating meat) . Maybe he was a mix of both. ?

(Karlis replies to the above post)

That's good gnostic thinking, Ripley. thumbsup.gif

Ripley -- you ask: but does that fit the Psalm ?

The answer is "No", your ideas do not fit the Scriptures.

A psalm of Asaph.

1 God presides in the great assembly;

he gives judgment among the "gods":

2 "How long will you [a] defend the unjust

and show partiality to the wicked?

Selah

3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;

maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.

4 Rescue the weak and needy;

deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.

They walk about in darkness;

all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 "I said, 'You are "gods";

you are all sons of the Most High.'

7 But you will die like mere men;

you will fall like every other ruler."

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,

for all the nations are your inheritance

-=-=-=-

Folks, I'm commenting specifically on the above aspect in Mr Walker's post, because imo it pretty well perfectly fits in with the idea that God is creating character in human minds -- to learn to choose one specific way in life, against all opposition, and in all circumstances. When "perfect" character develops within one's psyche, that person could then be regarded as spiritually, emotionally and otherwise of the same nature as God; aka "in God's likeness".

Only such developed character would be suitable for those humans who are to be raised as immortal spirit children of God, as members of God's family.

Just tossing in a thought here, without enlarging on it, :)

Karlis

-=-=-=-

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