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Mr Walker

Does god have free will?

65 posts in this topic

Shadowhive, you have been on UM a long time. Perhaps you simply have not read any of my previous posts on this very subject. Below are a few of the many posts I have made on this theme. Why not do a word search through my posts, if you are really interested in my thoughts.

Regards,

Karlis

Being on a long time doesn't translate into 'I have read every post on every board', especially since many posts seem to run into many pages (and cover topics I'm simply not interested in). As such, it's not that much of a leap to suggest I've missed what your thoughts may be. You don't need to act like that's such an impossibility.

I will give your stuff a look over now.

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Does the christian /jewish/ muslim god, in particular, have free will?

Do entities labelled god(s), in general, have free will?

Any opinions appreciated, but rationales/reasons for your opinions would be particularly interesting.

You dont have to believe in the existence of a god or gods to answer this.

It is a theological/philosophical/cosmological question, which goes to the potential nature of god(s),

imagined, constructed or real.

I think so. Higher conciousness would have free will just as much as we do. I'm not a determinist so I do believe any sort of god that us alive would have free will.

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That would be understandable. However the big problem I have with that, is what christians claim happens after death. Either a: most of us get sent to a spiritual death or b: people get 'cleansed' of their negative sides. So if the point is that growth and experience, and god wants us to have it, why erase it at the first oppportunity?

As karlis says, neither of these concepts comes from biblical scripture. HAving said that, to me life after death is belief based and has to be taken on faith. I have no faith or belief in life after death although neither do i disbelieve its possibilty.

Gods teachings to me are alll about improving myself and my world in the here and now. They are also about species growth development and evolution/maturation Each generation grows upon the backs of the preceding ones.

God, in my experience, works to falicitate this species growth and development by working on the personal growth and development of individuals. This depends a lot on the individuall And god can only work with what a person is or has. So, for example, god working with an italian from 1500 would be very different from god working with me in 2012. And very different again from god working with a person from the neolithic period. Gods aims and intentions in each case might be the same, but methods understandings and relationships would be quite different.

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I think so. Higher conciousness would have free will just as much as we do. I'm not a determinist so I do believe any sort of god that us alive would have free will.

I am not suprised that this is almost precisely the answer thatIi would have given to the question. :innocent:

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Shadowhive, you have been on UM a long time. Perhaps you simply have not read any of my previous posts on this very subject. Below are a few of the many posts I have made on this theme. Why not do a word search through my posts, if you are really interested in my thoughts.

Regards,

Karlis

Look it over. As I expected, it all sounds quite ridiculous, bordering on the insane but hey, that's religion for you.

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I agree with a lot of this. human history and the colonial period demonstrates the problem. And i think startrek was influenced by this history, But times are changing a bit Today there is a more interventist view, partly in response to more modern understandings about human sociology and cultures.

I don't think there's anything wrong with intervening, as long as it's done with care. That is my main point. We shouldn't just simply see another species and think they're in trouble and try to intervene. We'd need to be careful before we did anything, just in case we don't actually make things worse, or take things the wrong way.

I'd be very against us going out into the stars and intervening with the affairs of every civilisation we meet simply because we think we know the 'right way' for them to be.

Example: if we see a person screaming, we rush to their aid, because they might be in pain. If we hear an alien scream, are they in pain, or is that how they communicate? Maybe a scream is a laugh to them, or a way of frightening others off? We'd need to know what it is before we acted and did something foolish.

I imagine the klingons would react violently. Hardly a surprise. In startrek ALL cultural responses were valued. In practice some are more positive than others. I tended to see the klingons as galactic bully boys. I think the viulcans and klingons were meant to represent the two alternate aspects of human nature. Our primeaval evolved responses, and those we are evolving as rational and self aware beings.

Exactly. Which is why if you had where faced with a situation that was effecting the Klingons you'd handle it in a different way than you'd handle the same situation with the Vulcans. You'd not want to accidentally start a war with the 'galactic bully boys' simply over a misunderstanding.

Perhaps god has not done a great job. The "proof" wil be whether we survive the next couple of centuries and do manage to get off world.

The altering i was speaking of comes from internal adjustment and is inevitable when two different cultures clash, especially where one has a clear technological advantage.

Perhaps.

If the altering is done carefully, then the outcome can be much better for all involved. If the altering is done too quickly, that's when trouble ensues and there's enough historical proof that that's the wrong way of doing things.

Humans cant shake religious belief while we think as we are evolved to do. It is inhernt in how we think and in our language . We are programmed from birth to relate to our environment in this way.

I don't think that's necessarily a good thing, as your next point emphasises.

No not necessarily a common religion, that was a different point. A religion or form of spirtituality which works for educated modern, inteligent beings with a great database of knowledge and a scientific understanding of the world. A religion or sense of spirituality which enables us to be as happy content and adjusted as christianity (as one example) enabled people to be for 2000 years, and as earlier religions worked for people prior to christianity. Less tha 10% of modern humans claim to be atheists. All the rest acknowledge either a god or a spiritual element in their lives and in their view of the world. But today it doesnt seem to work as effectively as it once did. And in the material west, suicide and depression are among the highest causes of death and unhappiness, It really seems that humans (unless they are physically reconstructed) cant live full lives without a spiritual/religious element, perhaps to make sense of their lives.

I don't think a religion would work for the modern world. spirituality haas a better bet, but religion doesn't, because any religion would have a shelf live before it becomes irrelevent (like the others have been). I think we'd need something a bit more vague, a bit more lasting, a bit more reasonable and sane. Would such a thing happen in my lifetime? I doubt it.

Edited by shadowhive

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Thanks for your last reply, j girl. That made sense to me, and i can understand what you are getting at.

you're welcome.

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To me free will is simple and clear. Can a n entity form a choice of action without concrete let or hindrance? In other words is there any physical obstruction preventing a human mind from imagining ANY choice of action? I can find none.

Second, is there any physical mechanism which prevents a human trying to act on any thought they have? Again I can find none. Knowedge of consequence is a cautionary/informing force not one which physically prevents action. Death as a consquence of an action comes too late to prevent the exercise of either forming an intent or carring it out. So there are no physical limitations on human free will.

The wider illusion of predestination as an aspect of cause and effect, is an illusion based on human perspective and our current positioning in a linear time line; between a concrete past which we assume was the only possible past time line, and a future which is yet to be formed and created. We judge the future as we see the past but they are differnt entities Our past was once our future As a future it was changable and alterable Only past things are unchangeable There is no definitive connection between a past nano second of time and a future one. But that is a wider argument .

While a god might be able to compute many alternate futures, it cannot know them, especially when they involve sapient self aware beings who can imagine and create. Thus, gods need to work to achieve their desired outcomes, just as we do They just have more data and a better computing capacity.

Many things are not connected to free will. If i am killed by a volcano erupting suddenly under my house, no will is involved. Free will is a component of our self aware sapience. It exists within our own choices. We dont have a choice about being born or about the free willed intent of another. Eg i cant prevent someone who wants to, from trying to walking into my home and shooting me, but we always have choices about how we think and act In any scenario. How i respond when that intruder enters; how i decide and act, will alter the outcome as much as it can

Those choices are virtually unliimited. Only our failure to recognise and act on this knowledge restricts our choices. But that does not deny free will. It exists even if we do not fully utilise it. just as a person who refuses to speak is still capable of speech.

First, I respect your opinion, Mr Walker, and I thank you for responding.

I am Jewish. I was taught that G-d gave "man" (I'm female!) Free Will. However, my university studies in philosophy have led me to oppose the idea of Free Will, and freedom of choice. We are limited. I cannot defy gravity. I cannot 'will' to change my sexual preference. Choices are given, determined--not free.

To answer your OP question, G-d is an abstraction, so how do you reconcile Free Will with that?

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First, I respect your opinion, Mr Walker, and I thank you for responding.

I am Jewish. I was taught that G-d gave "man" (I'm female!) Free Will. However, my university studies in philosophy have led me to oppose the idea of Free Will, and freedom of choice. We are limited. I cannot defy gravity. I cannot 'will' to change my sexual preference. Choices are given, determined--not free.

To answer your OP question, G-d is an abstraction, so how do you reconcile Free Will with that?

Thats one of the reasons I am not too keen on university philosophy courses lol; they give lots of people funny ideas. Free will and choice is not limited by gravity. How can gravity negate my WILL? How can gravity prevent me from execising the intent of my will?

It cannot. Gravity can only influence the condsequence of an action, and as this consequence comes after a thought and a deed, it has no power to proscribe or prevent my thoughts or deed.

For example I see a tall cliff. I know that if i walk off it, i will die from the effects of gravity. But that knowledge cannot prevent me making a decision to walk of the cliff, nor prevent me from doing so It is my free willed choice to do so or not. Knowledge informs and empowers us and allows beteer choices but it has no physicl effect on free will for example i see a wall i front of me Despite wah ti know about walls i decide that this time maybe i wil be able to walk right through it. So i decide to I walk right up to it and through it, and (probably) I bounce of with a sore nose. But none of my knowledge prevented me from constructing an intent(will) or exercising that intent (action) I have complete freedom of will and action. Mos tliely the wall stoped me from succeding but that does not impede either my will or my action. There is nothing in human physiolgy to limit our abilty to form intent (exercise our will ) or attemept to act on it. Every day i spread my arms, face into the wind, run, and try to fly. I rarely succeed. BUT when I strap on a hang glider and do the same thing, yippee I am up and away flying like a bird. If i was impeded in my will or actions I could never have learned to hang glide. Something in my mind or physiology would have prevented me thinking it was possible or stopped me from trying it. But nothing does. Thats true of everything.

Go back and tell your philosophy professors to think again :devil: If they are good enough they will get the joke. There are things unconnected to will Like whether we are born male or female or still born.That doesnt negate the freedom of our will. Freedom of will can logically only apply where will is possible. A stone doesnt have a will. A flower has no choice when to open or close I have no choice about being born . But of course a human CAN apply will to many things, even gender and sexuality If you want to you can change your gender up to a point If you want to.

(Not that i would recpmmed this, but you can chose your sexual partners contrary to your genetic preferences There is nothing to stop you doing so) Even within things predetermined, like our eventual death, we do and have to make choices and those choices are freely made and acted on. Nothing forces us into one decision/intent or another. That's just a belief.

And where will is concerned, there is no physical predestination. For example gravity causes water to run down hill. It thus appears predestined that this wil happen. No will is involved; but invoke a human's will and we can make water run uphill.

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I Truly Hope They Do ..

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Thats one of the reasons I am not too keen on university philosophy courses lol; they give lots of people funny ideas. Free will and choice is not limited by gravity. How can gravity negate my WILL? How can gravity prevent me from execising the intent of my will?

It cannot. Gravity can only influence the condsequence of an action, and as this consequence comes after a thought and a deed, it has no power to proscribe or prevent my thoughts or deed.

For example I see a tall cliff. I know that if i walk off it, i will die from the effects of gravity. But that knowledge cannot prevent me making a decision to walk of the cliff, nor prevent me from doing so It is my free willed choice to do so or not. Knowledge informs and empowers us and allows beteer choices but it has no physicl effect on free will for example i see a wall i front of me Despite wah ti know about walls i decide that this time maybe i wil be able to walk right through it. So i decide to I walk right up to it and through it, and (probably) I bounce of with a sore nose. But none of my knowledge prevented me from constructing an intent(will) or exercising that intent (action) I have complete freedom of will and action. Mos tliely the wall stoped me from succeding but that does not impede either my will or my action. There is nothing in human physiolgy to limit our abilty to form intent (exercise our will ) or attemept to act on it. Every day i spread my arms, face into the wind, run, and try to fly. I rarely succeed. BUT when I strap on a hang glider and do the same thing, yippee I am up and away flying like a bird. If i was impeded in my will or actions I could never have learned to hang glide. Something in my mind or physiology would have prevented me thinking it was possible or stopped me from trying it. But nothing does. Thats true of everything.

Go back and tell your philosophy professors to think again :devil: If they are good enough they will get the joke. There are things unconnected to will Like whether we are born male or female or still born.That doesnt negate the freedom of our will. Freedom of will can logically only apply where will is possible. A stone doesnt have a will. A flower has no choice when to open or close I have no choice about being born . But of course a human CAN apply will to many things, even gender and sexuality If you want to you can change your gender up to a point If you want to.

(Not that i would recpmmed this, but you can chose your sexual partners contrary to your genetic preferences There is nothing to stop you doing so) Even within things predetermined, like our eventual death, we do and have to make choices and those choices are freely made and acted on. Nothing forces us into one decision/intent or another. That's just a belief.

And where will is concerned, there is no physical predestination. For example gravity causes water to run down hill. It thus appears predestined that this wil happen. No will is involved; but invoke a human's will and we can make water run uphill.

Geez Louise Mr Walker, you bring up some juicy talking points. I really wish I had the time to engage them but I'm in a Doctoral program that requires 99% of my awake time and 98% of my sleep time ;).

Do you know anything about the Jewish concept of Free Will, specifically Yetzer Ra and Yetzer Tov?

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Geez Louise Mr Walker, you bring up some juicy talking points. I really wish I had the time to engage them but I'm in a Doctoral program that requires 99% of my awake time and 98% of my sleep time ;).

Do you know anything about the Jewish concept of Free Will, specifically Yetzer Ra and Yetzer Tov?

Im glad you were not offended. I did not intend to be confrontational, but obviously this is something i feel passionate about and have been considering and reading about for over 5 decades. I really like judaism and its contribution to western and human civilization and society and the way we think as modern humans. I have not studied particularly/specifically the jewish concept of free will, but it is inherent in a study of judaism and its belief structure. It also comes out via a variety of writers and authors. It is one of the contributions of judaism to our way of thinking.

I am not sure when the concepts of yetzer ra and yetzer tov were introduced into judaism. Today they seem very modern, reasonable, and psychologically sound structures, but i am sure that, once upon a time, they would have been considered radical beliefs about the nature of human thought motivations and conscience.

I suspect we are more complex than these two fairly simple concepts suggest, but they are logical and sensible, as far as they go, to explain human duality.

Edited by Mr Walker

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just few examples, my friends :tu::)

page 34

...

(34.2) 2:1.3 Notwithstanding the infinity of the stupendous manifestations of the Father’s eternal and

universal personality, he is unqualifiedly self-conscious of both his infinity and eternity; likewise he knows

fully his perfection and power. He is the only being in the universe, aside from his divine co-ordinates, who

experiences a perfect, proper, and complete appraisal of himself.

(34.3) 2:1.4 The Father constantly and unfailingly meets the need of the differential of demand for himself as

it changes from time to time in various sections of his master universe. The great God knows and

understands himself; he is infinitely self-conscious of all his primal attributes of perfection. God is not a

cosmic accident; neither is he a universe experimenter. The Universe Sovereigns may engage in adventure;

the Constellation Fathers may experiment; the system heads may practice; but the Universal Father sees

the end from the beginning, and his divine plan and eternal purpose actually embrace and comprehend all

the experiments and all the adventures of all his subordinates in every world, system, and constellation in

every universe of his vast domains.

(34.4) 2:1.5 No thing is new to God, and no cosmic event ever comes as a surprise; he inhabits the circle of

eternity. He is without beginning or end of days. To God there is no past, present, or future; all time is

present at any given moment. He is the great and only I AM.

...

page 29

...

(29.2) 1:5.12 In the contemplation of Deity, the concept of personality must be divested of the idea of

corporeality. A material body is not indispensable to personality in either man or God. The corporeality error

is shown in both extremes of human philosophy. In materialism, since man loses his body at death, he

ceases to exist as a personality; in pantheism, since God has no body, he is not, therefore, a person. The

superhuman type of progressing personality functions in a union of mind and spirit.

...

sources

http://www.urantia.o...niversal-father

http://www.urantia.o...er-2-nature-god

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just few examples, my friends :tu::)

page 34

page 29

sources

http://www.urantia.o...niversal-father

http://www.urantia.o...er-2-nature-god

Thanks. I have read the entire urantia "journals" Fascinating stuff especially the alternate history of christ's early life. The nature of the revelation is also quite interesting and seems more soundly based than some such, although I suspend both belief and disbelief.

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Considering a lot of things I think he truly does. He has to have some type of rules and regulations to follow I mean he can't randomly decide one day "LOL gonna kill you guys for no reason. Watch out for destruction Bros!" Then again who says He can't? Humans have free will and so does God. Humans have limits thought even with a mortal body we can still die, but God does not He's immortal.

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