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Abramelin

The Serer (West Africa) and Ancient Egyptians

82 posts in this topic

I am not teaching, I am learning.

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And sharing your learning with others is teaching. Otherwise you'd just keep it all in your head and not share it, no? Great work BTW. You have always been good at sharing what you've learned with others.

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I share what I find.

I share with other people what I find interesting in the hope they may add something I did not know about. Not everything is to be found on the internet.

Some people think some topic is not interesting enough to delve in deeper or to be bothered with, and then I show them they are wrong.

It's about being tenacious. It's about being an info-junkie, lol.

I love history, more than anything else. OK, except p***y.

OK, now stop asskissing, and contribute something on topic, please

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Some people think some topic is not interesting enough to delve in deeper or to be bothered with, and then I show them they are wrong.

It's about being tenacious. It's about being an info-junkie, lol.

hmmm yes, I recently was delving deeper into a topic, tenaciously. I couldn't agree more.

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I'm going for Medusa being a Serer priestess of the Fangool. Athena's temple were sanctuaries for the snakes and Medusa was stationed in one in Western Africa/Libya before the Sahara had completely dried up. Hermes is the entwined snakes, he is the one who talks to God through them, the speaking snakes, they are how they connected with God - the Minoan Snake Goddess is imo, Athena and she is holding the snakes as receptors to get the message from the Gods. Hermes is the embodiment of what the snake represents, the Fangool - he is for communication, travel, writing, sacred texts, laws and knowledge. I'd even say these people were in Greece and the cult of Apollo wiped it out of Greece, Athenians kept much of it through their continued worship of Athena and the Gorgon and snake on her Aegis shows her ancient connection to it all - especially with Medusa herself having been in Athena's temple, while still in 'Libya' as where Perseus found her.

Just my thought for the morning.

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http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/akhena.pdf

I just put this up since we were discussing cultural exchanges of ancient egyptians.I found the article interesting in respect to Akhenaten and his new god Aton and the Mittani's.

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http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/akhena.pdf

I just put this up since we were discussing cultural exchanges of ancient egyptians.I found the article interesting in respect to Akhenaten and his new god Aton and the Mittani's.

There's some odd stories where Dionysus and Heracles have been to India in some war. Like the Aryans are Libyan/Ethiopian/Egyptians... since Herodotus mentions the Indians look pretty much like Ethiopians, it's food for though imo. I haven't read your whole link yet but found the beginning interesting enough.

Philostratus, Life of Apollonius of Tyana 2. 33 (trans. Conybeare) (Greek biography C1st to 2nd A.D.) :

"It is related, anyhow, that Herakles of Egypt and Dionysos after they had overrun the Indian people with their arms, constructed engines of war, and tried to take the place by assault; but the sages [brahmans], instead of taking the field against them, lay quiet and passive, as it seemed to the enemy; but as soon as the latter approached they were driven off by rockets of fire and thunderbolts which were hurled obliquely from above and fell upon their armour."

Philostratus, Life of Apollonius of Tyana 2. 6-10 :

"Now the Hellenes disagree with the Indians, and the Indians among themselves, concerning this Dionysos [the wine-god worshipped in India]. For we declare that the Theban Dionysos made an expedition to India in the role of soldier and reveller, and we base our arguments, among other things, on the offering at Delphoi, which is preserved in the treasuries there. And it is a disc of Indian silver bearing the inscription: ‘Dionysos the son of Semele and of Zeus, from the men of India to the Apollon of Delphoi.’"

Philostratus, Life of Apollonius of Tyana 3. 13 :

"Now the hill [in India] the summit of which is inhabited by the sages [brahmans] is, according to the account of our travellers, of about the same height as the Akropolis of Athens; and it rises: straight up from the plain, though its natural position equally secures it from attack for the rock surrounds it on all sides. On many parts of this rock you see traces of cloven feet and outlines of beards and of faces, and here and there impressions of backs as of persons who had slipt - and rolled down. For they say that Dionysos, when he was trying to storm the place together with Herakles, ordered the Panes to attack it, thinking that they would be strong enough to take it by assault; but they were thunderstruck by the sages and fell one, one way, and another, another; and the rocks as it were took the print of the various postures in which they fell and failed."

Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 131 (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) :

"When Liber [Dionysos] was leading his army into India, he gave the authority over his Theban kingdom to his nurse Nysus [seilenos] until he should come back. But after Liber returned from there, Nysus was unwilling to yield the kingdom."

Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 191 :

"At the time when Father Liber [Dionysos] was leading his army into India, Silenus wandered away; Midas entertained him generously, and gave him a guide to conduct him to Liber’s [Dionysos’] company."

Ovid, Metamorphoses 4. 20 ff (trans. Melville) (Roman epic C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :

"You [Dionysos] hold in thrall the Orient, even those remotest lands where Ganges waters dusky India."

Ovid, Metamorphoses 4. 605 ff :

"[Dionysos] conqueror of India."

http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/DionysosMyths3.html

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There's some odd stories where Dionysus and Heracles have been to India in some war. Like the Aryans are Libyan/Ethiopian/Egyptians... since Herodotus mentions the Indians look pretty much like Ethiopians, it's food for though imo. I haven't read your whole link yet but found the beginning interesting enough.

...

I haven't been part of this discussion but there's something I'd like to ask you, as the resident expert on Greek mythology.

It's clear the Greeks prior to the time of Alexander the Great had little to no real understanding of the modern country of India. To them India was basically parts of eastern Pakistan and the Indus Valley. Few if any Greeks had ventured that far beyond Asia Minor prior to Alexander.

I've read many times that the myths of Dionysus and Heracles pertaining to India did not exist, again, prior to the time of Alexander. I'm well versed in the campaigns and movements of Alexander and his army, but generally not in Greek myth. It's possible Alexander brought Dionysus to India because of his ongoing guilt over having sacked and destroyed Thebes (a major cult center of Dionysus), before his war against Persia. He turned to the elevation and veneration of this god to assuage his guilt. In a similar vein Alexander is also responsible for Heracles' exploits in India because he believed he was a direct descendant of Heracles (as well as Achilles).

So I was wondering (in my usual tedious and roundabout way), are you aware of any myths of Dionysus and Heracles that can be solidly tied to India before Alexander dragged his army all the way there?

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I haven't been part of this discussion but there's something I'd like to ask you, as the resident expert on Greek mythology.

It's clear the Greeks prior to the time of Alexander the Great had little to no real understanding of the modern country of India. To them India was basically parts of eastern Pakistan and the Indus Valley. Few if any Greeks had ventured that far beyond Asia Minor prior to Alexander.

I've read many times that the myths of Dionysus and Heracles pertaining to India did not exist, again, prior to the time of Alexander. I'm well versed in the campaigns and movements of Alexander and his army, but generally not in Greek myth. It's possible Alexander brought Dionysus to India because of his ongoing guilt over having sacked and destroyed Thebes (a major cult center of Dionysus), before his war against Persia. He turned to the elevation and veneration of this god to assuage his guilt. In a similar vein Alexander is also responsible for Heracles' exploits in India because he believed he was a direct descendant of Heracles (as well as Achilles).

So I was wondering (in my usual tedious and roundabout way), are you aware of any myths of Dionysus and Heracles that can be solidly tied to India before Alexander dragged his army all the way there?

No, there is none as far as I know. I think what you suggest is very possible actually. Obviously Alexander is not Dionysus but in those stories I can see how he could be construed to be a form of him. I was thinking maybe the Persians even but I see the Alexander comparison is a popular idea, mentioned on the internet a bit.

Edited by The Puzzler

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If Father Liber was the one who was Dionysus, it could almost seem what I first thought might be truer, that it was really Cyrus who was Dionysus, the Liberator and he reached to India. He's the Aryan. So, now it wouldn't surprise me if the writings of the Rig Veda are later in date. But yeah, the myths told by Greeks seem to have Alexander in the role, intriguing actually, maybe I'll spend more time on it, a few points hint to an earlier arrival than Alexander, one where a story is told that Alexander is actually told the story of Dionysus arriving before him.

Cyrus, the Liberator.

The Babylonians regarded him as "The Liberator".[78] After his conquest of Babylon, followed Cyrus's help for the return of Jews; for this, Cyrus is addressed in the Jewish Tanakh as the "Lord's Messiah". Glorified by Ezra, and by Isaiah, Cyrus is the one to whom "Yahweh, the God of heaven" has given "all the Kingdoms of the earth".

http://en.wikipedia....Cyrus_the_Great

"And those who were subject to him, he treated with esteem and regard, as if they were his own children, while his subjects themselves respected Cyrus as their 'Father' ... What other man but 'Cyrus', after having overturned an empire, ever died with the title of 'The Father' from the people whom he had brought under his power? For it is plain fact that this is a name for one that bestows, rather than for one that takes away!"

Edited by The Puzzler

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Can someone tell me in what way all this has anything to do with a relationship between the Serer and the ancient Egyptians?

Just asking because I see another huge thread derailment in the making....

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Can someone tell me in what way all this has anything to do with a relationship between the Serer and the ancient Egyptians?

Just asking because I see another huge thread derailment in the making....

I think you're a little too late Abe, it's been made.

cormac

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Can someone tell me in what way all this has anything to do with a relationship between the Serer and the ancient Egyptians?

Just asking because I see another huge thread derailment in the making....

kmt asked, I was answering him, don't have a cow Abe. It was relevant in determining if the Serer religion may have passed to India from Africa within that myth if anything.

So, what do you think of my Medusa idea, Serer religion into Greece via Athena, who is really the Snake Goddess, with obligatory owl on her head and Hermes, as Pelasgians?

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I think you're a little too late Abe, it's been made.

cormac

So what have you got to contribute about the Serer people cormac, give us something to chew on rather than make some irrelevant statement. Do you think it's possible that the Egyptians, Ethiopians and West Africa Serer people all originated in one place, maybe Ethiopia, Nilotic people, got any genetics info of interest?

Edited by The Puzzler

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kmt asked, I was answering him, don't have a cow Abe. It was relevant in determining if the Serer religion may have passed to India from Africa within that myth if anything.

So, what do you think of my Medusa idea, Serer religion into Greece via Athena, who is really the Snake Goddess, with obligatory owl on her head and Hermes, as Pelasgians?

You make a big point about those Pangool.

They were not just snakes or just being depicted as snakes.

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So what have you got to contribute about the Serer people cormac, give us something to chew on rather than make some irrelevant statement. Do you think it's possible that the Egyptians, Ethiopians and West Africa Serer people all originated in one place, maybe Ethiopia, Nilotic people, got any genetics info of interest?

There's nothing in the way of genetics to show a relationship beyond what we already know. That being that we all originated from Ethiopia c.200,000 BP. That's the only relationship that can be made from a genetics standpoint, at present. Not that I'd want to bog down Abramelin's thread with genetics. It tends to give him a migraine, I think. :lol:

cormac

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You make a big point about those Pangool.

They were not just snakes or just being depicted as snakes.

There are several Pangool in Serer religion and each one is associated with a specific attribute, have their own sacred place of worship, means of worship, etc. The symbol of the Pangool is the serpent, represented by two coiled snakes

The etymology of fangool comes from the Serer phrase Fang Qool which means the sacred serpent[7] the plural of which is pangool. Fangool means serpent

The sacred snake (fangool - cadeucus) is the receptor for the Pangool (priests - Hermes)

William Hayes Ward (1910) discovered that symbols similar to the classical caduceus sometimes appeared on Mesopotamian cylinder seals. He suggested the symbol originated some time between 3000 and 4000 BCE, and that it might have been the source of the Greek caduceus.[10] A.L. Frothingham incorporated Dr. Ward's research into his own work, published in 1916, in which he suggested that the prototype of Hermes was an "Oriental deity of Babylonian extraction" represented in his earliest form as a snake god. From this perspective, the caduceus was originally representative of Hermes himself, in his early form as the Underworld god Ningishzida, "messenger" of the "Earth Mother".[11] The caduceus is mentioned in passing by Walter Burkert[12] as "really the image of copulating snakes taken over from Ancient Near Eastern tradition".

In Egyptian iconography, the Djed pillar is depicted as containing a snake in a frieze of the Dendera Temple complex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus

170px-Lekythos_of_Hermes.jpg

Edited by The Puzzler

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Ask yourself a question.

Why is the Cretan Snake Goddess holding up a snake in each hand up in the air? What is she doing? Just frantically waving snakes in the air?

In my opinion, the most logical thing for her to be doing is holding them up as a receptor, like aerials, this is not an uncommon thing to have done, the staffs and much, like Moses staff, also able to become a snake, were designed to receive Godly messages, since Hermes staff is a receptor type snake, it seems obvious that this is what the snakes represent, especially when seen in a similar way with the Serer.

The Akrotiri paintings clearly show black people on the boats.

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Just to make a late edit...

Hermes would be a Lamane, rather than a Pangool himself, but his staff is holding the Pangool. ie; ancient ancestral spirits knowledge, in the form of the sacred serpent, the Fangool.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Can someone tell me in what way all this has anything to do with a relationship between the Serer and the ancient Egyptians?

Just asking because I see another huge thread derailment in the making....

Sorry, Abe. No doubt my fault.

I will exit the discussion.

Puzzler, thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it. :tu:

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Sorry, Abe. No doubt my fault.

I will exit the discussion.

Puzzler, thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it. :tu:

Hmmm... if you had read every post in this thread, you'd have known I hoped for you to show up. And I posted that several times.

But Puzz seems able to pull your strings better than I can, even if what she posts has nothing to do with the topic itself.

++++

EDIT:

I remember Kmt_sesh wasn't too happy with the word-juggling around this word months ago, lol, so I hope he shows up soon.

http://www.unexplain...4

And I wonder what Neheb could mean besides 'unite'. Kmt_sesh, where are you??

http://www.unexplain...4

Yes, I did too, and that's why I hope Kmt_sesh shows up.

http://www.unexplain...15#entry4441915

And the title of this thread, "The Serer (West Africa) and Ancient Egyptians"........

Imagine, you start a thread about "Doggerland" or the "Oera Linda Book", and all I do is respond to a post in one of those threads (after many weeks) that's about ex-president Reagan or something.

I know you jump into any (new) thread that has a post about ancient Egypt, like I would when it's about Doggerland or the OLB.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I hope someone from (Western) Africa shows up, and is willing to tell us more about the Serer, things we don't find on the internet, or about things published in French (which is similar to non-existent for the Anglo-Saxons, lol).

I am not interested in vague connections with nothing but a snake story to back it up.

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...

I know you jump into any (new) thread that has a post about ancient Egypt, like I would when it's about Doggerland or the OLB.

.

The answer to this is: no, I don't. Many if not most? Yes. That doesn't mean I'm inclined to join every discussion just because ancient Egypt is mentioned in the title.

I've only popped into this thread now and then. I'm not familiar with most of its posts. I would have missed where you specifically asked for me. If it was really that important to you that I add my input, you could PM me.

One reason I have not become active in this discussion is that I know next to nothing about the Serers. I don't know how much I can contribute based on them, and I tend to avoid Wikipedia and other internet sources for research (by which I mean, I have nothing about these people in my own research library).

I don't know how much you would want to hear from me, anyway. You won't like my answer. And my answer is, I don't buy the connection between ancient Egyptians and Serers. I know I'm arguing from ignorance in so far as the Serers are concerned, but my familiarity with ancient Africans in the northeast part of the continent leaves me confident of my conclusion.

The geographical constraints alone are prohibitive. At the end of the Neolithic Subpluvial in northeast Africa, people were caused to move to the only available water source: in this case, the Nile River. We cannot expect that large populations were going to trek across the entirety of arid North Africa in search of new homes and water sources, or vise versa: the end result would've been the death of practically everyone on the move. If there truly is some genetic link between the Serers and pharaonic Egyptians, it lies so many thousands of years in the past (meaning tens of thousands of years) as to make connections meaningless by the Chalcolithic or Early Bronze Age.

Ethnicity and language are other considerations. The two peoples were/are clearly different ethnic groups. The languages are even more diverse. I was able to clarify that the Serers speak a branch of the Niger-Congo language family, which is one of the largest in Africa but a completely different language from the extinct Afro-Semitic tongue spoken in pharaonic Egypt. This is critical to consider.

For example, in your OP I noticed that the word "Serer" is supposed to mean "he who traces the temples" in ancient Egyptian. I really don't know where that comes from but "Serer" is not even an ancient Egyptian word that I've been able to determine. The root sr is common to many ancient Egyptian words, but none of them are involved with "Serer." To be honest I'm not sure what "traces" is supposed to mean in the definition you came across, but I suppose it infers some sort of physical delineation of a temple's outlines. If so, I can arrive at the actual ancient Egyptian equivalent: a.f Hwt (pronounced something like "ahf hoot"). Hwt is one of numerous words for "temple" in ancient Egyptian, other examples of which include Hwt-aAt, Hwt-nTr, aH, and r-pr. In any case, in my own experience "he who traces the temples" is not an ancient Egyptian expression or phrase, anyway.

You included some links for my attention, so I'll attempt to be brief in my summaries of them.

First link: Nehebkau

I agree with your assessment. Nothing in this ancient word (name) contains a word for serpent. The "neheb" portion means "to bind" or "to bring together," while "kau" is the plural for kA, one key aspect of the soul. This deity is tied in with creation myths but his key role became the harnessing or combining of the deceased's ba and ka after death. It's just that this deity was often depicted as a serpent.

I think connected to your first link is the bit about "Amenti," in the next post (#11). You're right on two counts: I've explained the ancient Egyptian meaning of this word (many times, actually), and I'm not a fan of "word-juggling." Transliterated from the ancient Egyptian as imntt, this was a basic word for "west" in one sense and, in a more ritual sense, a common means to refer to all deceased people ("the Westerners"). It designates the west side of the Nile, where most necropoli of importance were situated. The word, in so far as I'm aware, was not used generically to refer to people who lived to the west of Egypt. There's really nothing to indicate in the Egyptian records that they were familiar with peoples living farther west than Libya, and when referring to Libyans the Egyptians tended to use either specific tribal designations (e.g., Libu, Meshwesh, Tjemeh) or their own collective word for Libyans: THnw (pronounced something like "Tchen-oo"). In other words, such people were not referred to as Imentet.

Second link: Set

I am largely in agreement with your assessment. The most important point of clarification is the current Egyptological consensus that the Set animal is not really a jackal alone so much as some sort of unidentified canid combined with aspects of other animals. This iconographical representation jibes very well with Set's nature of chaos and disorder.

I would not confuse Set with either Khentyimentu or Anubis. All three of these deities began their lives as separate and distinct gods in the pharaonic culture. The closest connection you can make is that all of them are southern in derivation: Khentyimentu and Anubis from Abydos and Set from the nearby polity of Naqada. All possess canid aspects, Khentyimentu and Anubis clearly being jackals, while Set appears to contain other aspects, as well.

Third link: Phoenicians and Serer trade

I'm not sure what to comment on with this one. With my lack of familiarity with the Serer culture I can make no authoritative remark about the origin of their script. I admit I'm dubious about it coming from the Phoenicians but cannot dismiss it outright. As for trade, I'd have to ask if there's definitive evidence for the material culture of Phoenicians in the archaeological record of the Serers? That's critical to answer.

You're correct that Rmnn is an ancient Egyptian word for Lebanon (one of them, anyway). However, by all appearances, this was not native to the ancient Egyptian language, but an "Egyptianized" import-word from the Levant. The original as spoken in the Levant was the Semitic root LBN. The oldest attestation of this word is on Mesopotamian tablets dating to around 2900 BCE.

Let me know if there is something else on which you'd like me to comment. That is, if you still want my input. I'm dubious about the whole thing, but if my participation is desired, I can pitch in. But now that I've typed this post and will submit it in a few seconds, I guess it means I'll be following the thread anyway.

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OK, thanks Kmt.

About pm-ing you: you posted once or twice here and there you didn't have much time to even read up in threads you had already posted in, so I thought it would be better to wait for you to show up.

The reason I hoped you would show up is because you are the one in the know about ancient Egypt, meaning: you don't have to rely on Google or the odd book.

I also assumed you might be interested in the topic, because it has never been - as far as I know - discussed on UM before. It would be something almost brand-new for you to look into, instead of explaining for the x-th time about the construction of the pyramids, who built the Sphinx, and so on.

===

The word "serer" and its supposed meaning of "he who traces the temples", yes, I had never heard of it, I couldn't find any confirmation for it anywhere, and so I thought it was nothing but a wishful interpretation. Well, and now you showed me it was no known expression in ancient Egyptian.

==

I will look into the rest of your post later on, and reply to it.

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"I don't know how much you would want to hear from me, anyway. You won't like my answer. And my answer is, I don't buy the connection between ancient Egyptians and Serers. I know I'm arguing from ignorance in so far as the Serers are concerned, but my familiarity with ancient Africans in the northeast part of the continent leaves me confident of my conclusion."

Why would I not like your answer? It would be great if someone like you discussed it with someone knowledgeable of ancient West African history. And if the outcome is that it's nonsense, bad luck, and so be it. I happened to stumble upon it, and it seemed like an interesting topic to me.

Most everything you find on the internet is based on the research done by that French priest, Henry Gravrand, and the German Leo Frobenius (1921), and others basing many of their ideas on what these two people found. And much of what they concluded has already been considered to be wrong.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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