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Still Waters

Christians should leave their beliefs at home

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Christians should leave their religious beliefs at home or accept that a personal expression of faith at work, such as wearing a cross, means they might have to resign and get another job, government lawyers have said.

Landmark cases, brought by four British Christians, including two workers forced out of their jobs after visibly wearing crosses, have been heard today at the European Court of Human Rights

David Cameron, the Prime Minister, has previously pledged to change the law to protect religious expression at work but official legal submissions on Tuesday to Strasbourg human rights judges made a clear “difference between the professional and private sphere”.

http://www.telegraph...nother-job.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19472438

Edited by Still Waters
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If you don't believe in it, it's just jewellery. Everybody is so precious these days about what affronts them imo.

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Although 'leaving one's religion at home' when you are at your work seems like a good idea, I think this is a bit over the top.

If I would be a patient in a hospital, and a nurse helped me, I wouldn't care if she wore a cross, a crescent moon, a Star of David, or what have we. But I would have a problem is she started 'preaching' to me.

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I think it largely depends on the situation. If you've got a workplace and it says 'no jewellery' that should be it, none of any kind. Religions shouldn't get an exemption there. Other than that, if your religion gets in the way of your job then it becomes a problem and should be treated as such.

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Dinah Rose QC, acting for Ms Ladele, attacked the government’s argument as “startling” because it appeared to suggest that an employer can discriminate against someone on religious grounds, such as anti-Semitism, as long as the employee was able to leave their job and find another one elsewhere.

“An employer could have a policy of refusing to employ Jews because other employers will employ them,” she observed.

They need to be very careful how they word the law, it could be an ugly precedent. The easy out for an employer is just ban all jewelry. I have worked many places who baned jewelry, mostly for safety reasons. Pagans have a lot of trouble with the jewelry we wear. Many people flip-out when they see pentacles. I know many Pagans who keep the religious practice secret, because they would lose their jobs if their employers knew.

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If you don't believe in it, it's just jewellery. Everybody is so precious these days about what affronts them imo.

I remember I once had a collegue who was a Hindi from Surinam, and you bet he was a Hindi, quite a fanatic one if you ask me.

But he wore all of the above, lol. So one day, out of curiosity, I asked him why he wore a Christian cross (at that moment he didn't have the others yet). He then asked in return, "Why, can I not wear that? I just like it". So I said, "You can wear a brick if you like, I don't care. I was just being curious."

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I think it largely depends on the situation. If you've got a workplace and it says 'no jewellery' that should be it, none of any kind. Religions shouldn't get an exemption there. Other than that, if your religion gets in the way of your job then it becomes a problem and should be treated as such.

Most of the times that is a safety measure: when you work at some machine it's not a very good idea to have a necklace dangling from your neck when you have to bend over a running machine to do some adjustments.

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I've always thought it was a bit weird folk wearing crosses anyway. J.C was murdered on a cross, I'd hate crucifixes if he was my God's son. If Jesus had been born in the 20th century would people be walking round with gallows/electric chairs/firing squads around their necks?

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i dont see a problem with wearing a necklace.

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I've always thought it was a bit weird folk wearing crosses anyway. J.C was murdered on a cross, I'd hate crucifixes if he was my God's son. If Jesus had been born in the 20th century would people be walking round with gallows/electric chairs/firing squads around their necks?

There are even Christians who think like that, and wear a fish symbol instead:

fish-necklace-IMG_1852-200x200.jpg

And some won't believe what I am wearing: a small silver Hand of Fatima.

Well, it was just a present, and I like the shape of the thing.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I'm not sure all 4 people should be on the same case. From the looks of it, two of them have a jewelry complaint. But two of them look like they were uncomfortable with or refused to their job.

The two people that are complaining just about the jewelry- well, different places have different rules. I personally see nothing wrong with anyone wearing appropriate jewelry to work. Appropriate like don't wear dangly stuff if you work with machines, or various jewelry if you work with food, or large awful stuff if you work in a low key office. I don't think the shape of the jewelry should make a difference, people wear a lot of different stuff that has meaning to them.

The two people who weren't comfortable with or refused to do an aspect of their job. I don't care what their reasoning is behind it, either they can/will do their job or not. If not, they probably shouldn't be holding the job. It's uncomfortable for them obviously, and it's not right to expect their employers to bend the job to suit their preferences.

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I've always thought it was a bit weird folk wearing crosses anyway. J.C was murdered on a cross, I'd hate crucifixes if he was my God's son. If Jesus had been born in the 20th century would people be walking round with gallows/electric chairs/firing squads around their necks?

It doesn't relate that way to me though. I see several things at once, the horizontal (or earthly) path intersected with the spiritual (or vertical path) and the intersection - where they meet. I also see sacrifice, literally for all mankind, not least of which is the sacrifice of what we "want" aka: Jesus could have had many desires fulfilled by shirking the path and not creating the enemies he did but he stood his ground because it was of more value than any earthly desire could warrant. The cross was emblematic of his choice, his burden to bear.

Those are just a couple, the cross means so many things to folk, not all of them christian in origin but the christian cross is very distinctive and layered with many meanings not just the obvious too.

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i dont see a problem with wearing a necklace.

Mr_T_18947.jpg

He didn't have any problems either, lol.

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It doesn't relate that way to me though. I see several things at once, the horizontal (or earthly) path intersected with the spiritual (or vertical path) and the intersection - where they meet. I also see sacrifice, literally for all mankind, not least of which is the sacrifice of what we "want" aka: Jesus could have had many desires fulfilled by shirking the path and not creating the enemies he did but he stood his ground because it was of more value than any earthly desire could warrant. The cross was emblematic of his choice, his burden to bear.

Those are just a couple, the cross means so many things to folk, not all of them christian in origin but the christian cross is very distinctive and layered with many meanings not just the obvious too.

In the end though it's still just a cross. A place where countless people lost their lives in prolonged agony. If you see the cross as more than that then that is fine, but I just see it as a means of death, so have always thought it strange to use it as a Christian symbol. The fish seems better as a symbol to me. Jesus wasn't beaten to death with a fish......

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The fish seems better as a symbol to me. Jesus wasn't beaten to death with a fish......

:w00t:

I see a Monty Python's scene.....

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Even though I personally do not believe in the cross (or any idol for that matter) I believe that any person (no matter what religion) should have the right to wear any jewellery

or religious item they choose

As long as the person does their job to the best of their capabilities and satisfactorily and it is not for safety reasons, then I do not see the problem

Also why is it that people seem to think they can dictate what a person does or does not wear when it does not affect them, that boggles my mind

Most people that try to dictate things like that are nothing more than Hypocrites, because if the shoe was on the other foot they themselves

would be complaining about being told what they can or cannot wear

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Even though I personally do not believe in the cross (or any idol for that matter) I believe that any person (no matter what religion) should have the right to wear any jewellery

or religious item they choose

As long as the person does their job to the best of their capabilities and satisfactorily and it is not for safety reasons, then I do not see the problem

Also why is it that people seem to think they can dictate what a person does or does not wear when it does not affect them, that boggles my mind

Most people that try to dictate things like that are nothing more than Hypocrites, because if the shoe was on the other foot they themselves

would be complaining about being told what they can or cannot wear

People have the right (for the most part) to wear whatever they want in public, but today's companies are very conscious of everything their employees do at work or in their private lives. People are fired for Facebook or Twitter posts, or comments made in public that the company deems as below their standards. Some companies don't want the public to equate their business as Christian. I personally don't see any problem with a small cross around their necks, but some people like wearing crosses that are six inches long or bigger. That to me is really making a statement......one that an employer may not want to be seen as a reflection of their company.....

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What if someone is wearing a swastika or confederate flag? Are they ok? If crosses are ok would an upside down one be ok? Where do you draw the line?

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People have the right (for the most part) to wear whatever they want in public, but today's companies are very conscious of everything their employees do at work or in their private lives. People are fired for Facebook or Twitter posts, or comments made in public that the company deems as below their standards. Some companies don't want the public to equate their business as Christian. I personally don't see any problem with a small cross around their necks, but some people like wearing crosses that are six inches long or bigger. That to me is really making a statement......one that an employer may not want to be seen as a reflection of their company.....

I agree with and understand what You are saying

However, if I was the owner/ceo of a company I would rather be seen as a true equal opportunity employer

rather than a company that persecutes its employees for wearing a symbol/idol or for their religion or other belief's

Being like that would be better for business, and possibly get more customers who would choose

Your company over some other company that does seem to persecute over such things

What if someone is wearing a swastika or confederate flag? Are they ok? If crosses are ok would an upside down one be ok? Where do you draw the line?

I believe in "Live and let Live", as long as the people was NOT pushing their religion or belief's onto other people then I do not see any problem

If You treat everyone EQUAL and RESPECT every one for who they are and not what You think they should be and

they in return do the same,then there is no line that need's to be drawn

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Personally I think jobs are too uptight they need to relax and let people dress how they want provided their not in their PJs

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Christians should leave their religious beliefs at home or accept that a personal expression of faith at work, such as wearing a cross, means they might have to resign and get another job, government lawyers have said.

Landmark cases, brought by four British Christians, including two workers forced out of their jobs after visibly wearing crosses, have been heard today at the European Court of Human Rights

David Cameron, the Prime Minister, has previously pledged to change the law to protect religious expression at work but official legal submissions on Tuesday to Strasbourg human rights judges made a clear “difference between the professional and private sphere”.

http://www.telegraph...nother-job.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19472438

Not sure how this will turn out but it is a fight worth fighting. Of course people can't, and shouldnt, leave their core beliefs behind them, (any more than anyone can leave their ethics moralities and conscience behind), when one enters the world of work.

No employer govt or private has a right to expect or compel a nother persons beliefs and principles to match thos eof themselves or their company.

While some realism and compromise must be achieved, a pesons right to belief and expression of belief is more important than many other factors. In australia one is protected by strong state and federal laws, against dismissal or discrimination because of ones religious beliefs (or practices) That is ANY religious beliefs; from wiccan /pagan through christian muslim or jew to any other . Where dress or jewellery is part of a genuine and sincere belief system, people are protected by law in their right to wear such dress or jewellery at work (or in govt schools as students ) That is what it means to be a true MULTI cultural society.

Today I read another news report about a spiritual person who was tied up and forced to watch strip shows at office functions. He objected on moral grounds but was compelled on the bosses order, as part of company "bonding "

He, I think, has won his case The company claims that they would no longer support this sort of bonding exercise or treatment of an employee.

found a reference

SAO PAULO (AP) - Latin America's biggest beverage company Ambev must pay $25,000 to a worker who was forced to attend prostitute parties as part of a manager's incentive program, Brazil's top labor court ruled.

Anheuser Busch InBev's Brazilian unit AmBev must pay because of the embarrassment and bullying the employee suffered, the court stated in a release on its website.

The statement says incidents with prostitutes happened at least 10 times in 2003 and 2004.

The court's Monday statement says the worker at one point was tied up at work and forced to watch pornographic films and a stripper performed in his office. The statement described the worker as a married evangelical Christian.

http://www.klfy.com/...stitute-parties

I dont attend work staff functions, and some senior student functions, because they involve alcohol, which I see as a contributor to many of society's ills. I dont judge others for drinking, but i havent touched alcohol or any other form of drug for forty years. If an employer sought to coerce me to do so, "to be part of the team", I would take them to court and, in australia, win. So no one tries.

Edited by Mr Walker

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What if someone is wearing a swastika or confederate flag? Are they ok? If crosses are ok would an upside down one be ok? *Where do you draw the line?

i enjoy a good laugh as much as the next gerontopheliac.. but didn't quite get this?

..if i may? whoooooooooaaaaaah! contarky.. whoah oh oh oh. your love has given me wings. i got the wings off a dove.. i got... i got.. i got the wings from kentucky frieddddddd!!!!!

swastika = nazi = skinhead = eww! spew. killed jews too.

confederate flag = rebellion = the south = fail.

cross = jesus = salvation = paradise.

call me a chrysalid, but i know which one of those three choices i'm taking as my first pick.

if i remember right, from a page back, were you the one suggesting a crucifix (the right way up) was offensive? or could be offensive?

what do you think turning it upside down entails? snails. fails. ima hump some whales.

man: [to his girlfriend] "hey, wanna try it the other way around this time?"

girlfriend: *slap*

crossed a line?] wahaha such delicious puns, buns, living in slums

i don't know, maybe it wasn't you who said that.. maybe i should just tab back a page and confirm this.. but i'm a lazy lazy man..

*yah for sure from sveden, here's the rub.. if you yourself are UNSURE of these things... it.. just...might...be...that... something.. like...*cough* jesus *cough* ..is..exactly..what..you're..looking...for..?????

don't be scared to 'like' jesus because you think your friends will throw prostitutes on you :w00t: [lol?]

"the one who is ashamed of me, is not worthy of me" - JC

many, many fine upstanding UM members seem to subscribe to him already...

eg: jackofalltrades

If You treat everyone EQUAL and RESPECT every one for who they are and not what You think they should be and

they in return do the same,then there is no line that need's to be drawn

..that's more or less your 'do unto others' jive right there. share. care. fair.

ok well this is no longer amusing ..and starting to lean on the preachy side. i'm out. just think about it. tit. ****. i'm out of wit. onto the next skit in a little bit.

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I wonder if perhaps someday it will get to the point where atheists will have to leave their dis-belief at home...

After all... fair is fair...

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Speaking as an american, and believing very much in the separation of church and state, this measure seems extreme and improper.

They should certainly be able to wear religious jewelry to work, even if they work for the government.

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