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Still Waters

The remote control cockroach

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Also, if the cockroaches are looking for earthquake victims and doing homeland security seems to be a 'good' function does it not?

I think so!

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This is true. People arn't very tolerant towards cockroaches - especially. But then seeing how they can get in almost every nook and cranny, it's not surprising they chose these in particular.

I admit I'm one of the people who recoil from roaches of all kinds . We were in North Africa for a few years and large cockroaches would fly in at night if windows were open, they are tormentors!

There are several research projects in Berekely & Universite Libre de Bruxelles, among others, aiming to create robotic cockroaches and other miniature drones, to perform the same task (minus the 'yuck' factor), which imo is preferable.

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I simply can't equate the rights of higher animals with that of cockroaches. Perhaps this makes me a *bad* person but that's the way I feel.

Read this: http://ento.psu.edu/...can-cockroaches

From that link:

Basically, cockroaches are pests/vermin.

Everything has a role. Plenty of animals are seen as vermin. Doesn't mean that it's ok to mistreat them.

Besides, if an outside intelligence looked at this planet and the various closely related lifeforms that inhabit it, how would they view humanity?

Edited by Atlantia
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I admit I'm one of the people who recoil from roaches of all kinds . We were in North Africa for a few years and large cockroaches would fly in at night if windows were open, they are tormentors!

There are several research projects in Berekely & Universite Libre de Bruxelles, among others, aiming to create robotic cockroaches and other miniature drones, to perform the same task (minus the 'yuck' factor), which imo is preferable.

This article is trying to put a positive spin on these experiments by suggesting a use for these creatures.

They have been publicised for a few years now. 'Zombie-roach' and 'Cyborg roach' etc.

These cockroach experiments are in fact basic neurological experiments that WILL lead to similar procedures being performed on higher animals as the technology progresses.

Of course those experiments are already being done, we just only see the ones that are 'perfected' and 'less horrifying'.

Edited by Atlantia

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Fair enough, if these are 'good' pet cockroaches then perhaps one has a point. However, I'm still leaning toward them being just insects and not exactly sentient life forms. Also, if the cockroaches are looking for earthquake victims and doing homeland security seems to be a 'good' function does it not?

The argument that 'something good' can be achieved via moraly debatable, ethically dubious research and exploitation is a slippery slope.

Where would you draw that line?

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Everything has a role. Plenty of animals are seen as vermin. Doesn't mean that it's ok to mistreat them.

Besides, if an outside intelligence looked at this planet and the various closely related lifeforms that inhabit it, how would they view humanity?

By your definition: Your life is as valuable as a cockroaches?

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This article is trying to put a positive spin on these experiments by suggesting a use for these creatures.

They have been publicised for a few years now. 'Zombie-roach' and 'Cyborg roach' etc.

These cockroach experiments are in fact basic neurological experiments that WILL lead to similar procedures being performed on higher animals as the technology progresses.

Of course those experiments are already being done, we just won't see them until they are 'perfected'.

I do not want to derail the thread, but I do not view such neurological experiments as necessarily negative, for example they can lead to better brain controlled prosthetic limbs, their potential is huge and could very well improve the living conditions of many.

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I'm just making the point that it's subjective and a lot of people would consider this fine, while if it was an animal such as a cat or dog there would be uproar.

I agree it is in a way cruel, but humans as a race do in many cases rely on exploiting what's around us - I'm not saying if it's right or wrong, but you could argue it's human nature.

I'm not going to compare whatI do to make the world a better place against what you do. That's also subjective and being a vegan doesn't necessarily make you (not you specifically) a good person.

A whip vs electrodes maybe? It's hard to compare because there are too many grey areas.

It's pretty much impossible to quantify the ratio of discomfort of a horse pulling a carriage to a cockroach being manipulated by implant electrodes.

The horse is smarter and might be affected psychologically although it may not be painful, the cockroach might feel more pain but there could be more minimal psychological affects because he's simple - he might not need to see his shrink while the horse could be scarred for life.

- Also I call my horse Bob and my cockroach Jasper, if anyone thinks I'm being sexist then we can call them Bobette and Jaspionette.

I'm just making the point that it's subjective and a lot of people would consider this fine, while if it was an animal such as a cat or dog there would be uproar.

I agree it is in a way cruel, but humans as a race do in many cases rely on exploiting what's around us - I'm not saying if it's right or wrong, but you could argue it's human nature.

I'm not going to compare whatI do to make the world a better place against what you do. That's also subjective and being a vegan doesn't necessarily make you (not you specifically) a good person.

A whip vs electrodes maybe? It's hard to compare because there are too many grey areas.

It's pretty much impossible to quantify the ratio of discomfort of a horse pulling a carriage to a cockroach being manipulated by implant electrodes.

The horse is smarter and might be affected psychologically although it may not be painful, the cockroach might feel more pain but there could be more minimal psychological affects because he's simple - he might not need to see his shrink while the horse could be scarred for life.

- Also I call my horse Bob and my cockroach Jasper, if anyone thinks I'm being sexist then we can call them Bobette and Jaspionette.

I brought up my being a vegan because of YOUR comment suggesting Vegetarian hypocracy (Eating fish etc).

For the record. Vegetarians DON'T eat fish.

However! I'm not going to attack people for trying to cause LESS harm in this world, so if people want to eat less meat, or try to shop more ethically in any way then good for them.

Furthermore, your throwaway comment asking if I've 'ever squished a bug'? Of course, If I've had to. I've also picked a lot up and put them outside. I don't however go and find them and pull their legs off for fun!

Can you see the comparisson?

FInally, comparing this basic vivisection with an average working animals life is hardly a fair analogy.

I object to the misuse of both whips and electrodes.

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By your definition: Your life is as valuable as a cockroaches?

Are you being deliberately disingenuous or did you really have trouble understanding that simple post?

If you tell me that you really are having trouble grasping the meaning, I'll happily take the time to patiently explain it to you in simpler terms.

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I do not want to derail the thread, but I do not view such neurological experiments as necessarily negative, for example they can lead to better brain controlled prosthetic limbs, their potential is huge and could very well improve the living conditions of many.

They may well oneday have some use for human amputees. They certainly don't imrove the lives of the primates used for the vivisection and experimentation of the 'R&D' phase. Notice the placing of the camera to obscure the top of the monkeys head ;)

No, I think it's an obscentity.

[media=]http://youtu.be/gnWSah4RD2E[/media]

Edited by Atlantia

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I brought up my being a vegan because of YOUR comment suggesting Vegetarian hypocracy (Eating fish etc).

For the record. Vegetarians DON'T eat fish.

However! I'm not going to attack people for trying to cause LESS harm in this world, so if people want to eat less meat, or try to shop more ethically in any way then good for them.

Furthermore, your throwaway comment asking if I've 'ever squished a bug'? Of course, If I've had to. I've also picked a lot up and put them outside. I don't however go and find them and pull their legs off for fun!

Can you see the comparisson?

FInally, comparing this basic vivisection with an average working animals life is hardly a fair analogy.

I object to the misuse of both whips and electrodes.

My comment was highlighting the issue relating to many vegatarians/vegans being that way for questionable reasons.

I love insects and bugs, eg. people freak out when I let a jumping spider run down my arm.

Girlfriends curse when i release a small spider outside rather than squish it.

Also I never said that vegetarians eat fish, although I know many people who call themselves vegetarian and do just that.

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They may well one have some use for human amputees. They certainly don't imrove the lives of the primates used for the vivisection and experimentation of the 'R&D' phase. Notice the placing of the camera to obscure the top of the monkeys head ;)

No, I think it's an obscentity.

[media=]http://youtu.be/gnWSah4RD2E[/media]

I am aware that the brain controlled prosthetics are already developed, and trials involved also human subjects, not just monkeys.

http://www.fastcompa...rket-four-years

Either microchips were implanted in the brain , or intracortical microelectrodes arrays are used. A graph in this paper clarifies what would be hidden by the camera in your link http://freylab.misso...nature06996.pdf . Another paper also describes the experiment http://lib.semi.ac.c...96/296-1829.pdf. The fact that the top of the monkey's head is hidden in your link does not necessarily mean that there is something gruesome being done as you seem to imply. While in my view animal experimentation is not optimal, I disagree with you in categorically calling it 'obscene', what are the alternatives?

Edited, need more coffee

Edited by meryt-tetisheri

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I am aware that the brain controlled prosthetics are already developed, and trials involved also human subjects, not just monkeys.

http://www.fastcompa...rket-four-years

Either microchips were implanted in the brain , or intracortical microelectrodes arrays are used. A graph in this paper clarifies what would be hidden by the camera in your link http://freylab.misso...nature06996.pdf . Another paper also describes the experiment http://lib.semi.ac.c...96/296-1829.pdf. The fact that the top of the monkey's head is hidden in your link does not necessarily mean that there is something gruesome being done as you seem to imply. While in my view animal experimentation is not optimal, I disagree with you in categorically calling it 'obscene', what are the alternatives?

Edited, need more coffee

The camera obscures the implants to save the delicate sensibilities of the viewers. If you think there is an 'acceptable' and 'non gruesome' level of brain experimentation vivisection on primates then that's your view.

The question isn't whether or not animal experimentation can further an agenda that may be beneficial to humans, the quesion is whether it is morally acceptable.

Similar neurological experiments used to be performed on the mentally ill, the differently abled, 'inferior races', criminals even.

The same arguments were used, it was done to benefit humanity, and if not them then who?

My answer would be that if you can't find a perfect solution, no amount of 'wrong' solutions is acceptable.

The vivisection lobby pretends that there are no alternatives but of course there is plenty of fine medical research being done without vivisection.

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'I'm a vegetarian because I don't believe in animal cruelty, but fish don't count' etc...

You implied a double standard in some vegetarians. I pointed out that people who eat fish are not vegetarians.

But I reminded you that no attempt to lessen the suffering caused by ones existence should be dismissed.

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The camera obscures the implants to save the delicate sensibilities of the viewers. If you think there is an 'acceptable' and 'non gruesome' level of brain experimentation vivisection on primates then that's your view.

The question isn't whether or not animal experimentation can further an agenda that may be beneficial to humans, the quesion is whether it is morally acceptable.

Similar neurological experiments used to be performed on the mentally ill, the differently abled, 'inferior races', criminals even.

The same arguments were used, it was done to benefit humanity, and if not them then who?

My answer would be that if you can't find a perfect solution, no amount of 'wrong' solutions is acceptable.

The vivisection lobby pretends that there are no alternatives but of course there is plenty of fine medical research being done without vivisection.

We are discussing the here & now, the research you referred to will benefit thousands worldwide. The question of the ethics of animal experimentation cannot be simply answered with a blanket qualification. I am against using animals when there are viable alternatives, for frivolous or banal research like cosmetics for example, when the animals are cruelly treated or subjected to excessive pain, then it woud be immoral to use animal subjects. To address the specific research you linked, do brain implants cause pain i.e. is the brain capable of feeling pain? Do you know of specific viable alternatives to the use of animals for this particular research or was it unavoidable?

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We are discussing the here & now, the research you referred to will benefit thousands worldwide. The question of the ethics of animal experimentation cannot be simply answered with a blanket qualification. I am against using animals when there are viable alternatives, for frivolous or banal research like cosmetics for example, when the animals are cruelly treated or subjected to excessive pain, then it woud be immoral to use animal subjects. To address the specific research you linked, do brain implants cause pain i.e. is the brain capable of feeling pain? Do you know of specific viable alternatives to the use of animals for this particular research or was it unavoidable?

As I've already said. For me it's not a question of alternatives, it's simply a case of morality. I am against vivisection.

If you have a 'qualified objection' then it's really up to you to research the subject and decide where you believe that the alternative research models meet your criteria and where they do not.

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The argument that 'something good' can be achieved via moraly debatable, ethically dubious research and exploitation is a slippery slope.

Where would you draw that line?

Well for EQ victims,it could be a good thing. We use other animals for similiar tasks ,andceven worse tasks.

The US navy uses dolphins and sealions ,for very questionable uses,in some cases.

The entire remote control aspect ,is the problem .

But we have therapy cats,and service dogs .Bomb and drug sniffing dogs,who can die being blown up ,and actually can get addicted to drugs.

Do you know ,that every single one of the dogs used for 911/ground zero search and rescue,got sick and died of terrible lung disease ?

Every single one,died within barely 4 years of the WTC .I helped with a punk rock benefit for their medical care,but they all died anyway .

We think just sniffing out people is not dangerous for them..

Any animal ,used for these tasks ,is a hero .The humans controlling them are not even worth two hairs,or antennae on their backs .

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If some people desire to discuss the pros and cons of vegetarianism then please start a new thread.

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its good to be at the top of the food chain, think about wat cockroaches would do to us if they were on top O.O

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its good to be at the top of the food chain, think about wat cockroaches would do to us if they were on top O.O

Cockroaches on top!

That sounds like a film I do not want to see...

Edited by Junior Chubb

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As I've already said. For me it's not a question of alternatives, it's simply a case of morality. I am against vivisection.

If you have a 'qualified objection' then it's really up to you to research the subject and decide where you believe that the alternative research models meet your criteria and where they do not.

Can I ask a serious question ..... ?

If one of your loved ones was in an earth quake , stuck inside a collapsed building and the rescue workers pulled out some remote control cockroaches to search the rubble , would you still be against it ?

Tip.

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Can I ask a serious question ..... ?

If one of your loved ones was in an earth quake , stuck inside a collapsed building and the rescue workers pulled out some remote control cockroaches to search the rubble , would you still be against it ?

Tip.

It's not a serious question. It's the usual question that people ask to try and rationalise immoral actions or shake peoples beliefs.

If you were starving you'd eat anything, If someone held a gun to your head.... etc, etc, etc

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Everything has a role. Plenty of animals are seen as vermin. Doesn't mean that it's ok to mistreat them.

Besides, if an outside intelligence looked at this planet and the various closely related lifeforms that inhabit it, how would they view humanity?

Compared to all the other animals I would think they would be pretty impressed with us.

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It's not a serious question. It's the usual question that people ask to try and rationalise immoral actions or shake peoples beliefs.

If you were starving you'd eat anything, If someone held a gun to your head.... etc, etc, etc

Im not trying to shake anyones beliefs , a simple yes or no would have done just fine :tu:

Bull fighting , c*** fighting , dog fighting etc is what i would class as immoral , if you are going to include cockroaches , you had best forget about walking on grass again , how many bugs does that kill ?

Tip.

Edited by tipotep
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Atlantia brings up a very good point. Ethics in Science. A field that discusses and researches subjects like these in great length.

I wouldn't be so quick to say the cockroach suffers pain, but it can't be ruled out at this moment in time that the insect does not experience a certain level of discomfort.

Also, in this case we can rule out that there is no other option. It is clearly stated that the alternative is a possibility But it's harder to create and more importantly, it is much more expensive. (Especially if it is destroyed).

The cerci detect movement in the air to detect predators and cause roaches to scurry. However, by using wires to stimulate the cerci, researchers were able to trick the roach into thinking something was sneaking up on it, thus causing it to move.

Wires attached to the antennae are essentially reins that feed small charges into the roach's neural tissue, which fool the roach into thinking there is something they need to steer clear of.

the insect is tricked into "thinking" something is following it. This could be reason to assume it experiences a constant state of stress.

Is it aware of "feelings" of discomfort. This hasn't been disproven or proven yet.

Emotions in humans are linked to certain chemicals in the brain. These chemicals have also been found in insects. So is it just a reflex for the insect to try and get away of what it is tricked into thinking there is, or does it feel a (constant) sense of stress/discomfort to hurry away?

Is it just a sensory and/or chemical induced reflex if humans do the same?

If the insect were to feel stress, is there a way to put it at ease and come to the same results?

Further research should take place to answer such questions.

I wouldn't just brush of the whole research field of ethics in science, it's also very important in the increasing technologicalization of society.

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