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The Puzzler

Great Pyramid not built by Khufu?

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Thanks for this Arbitran. Of all the people cladking could have had a discussion about gorillas with, he would have to pick one who's actually worked with them. Priceless! :lol:

cormac

I've worked with gorillas as well.

Well, more like bought drinks for, really.

harte

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Gorillas cannot be domesticated in the common sense, but then, neither can humans; in the true sense of the word. Payment/bribery/whatever you want to call it, is usually sufficient to get humans to work for other humans; gorillas are the same. Having worked with gorillas, I've learned first-hand that, if a gorilla wants something, and you know it wants it, then you can use it as an incentive to cajole it, as you say, to do what you wish. It isn't quite as simple as strapping mules to a cart, but it isn't much harder than paying a human worker.

Two questions;

What's the most complicated activity you ever got a gorilla to do?

What's the longest you were able to get a gorilla to actively do anything at all?

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Two questions;

What's the most complicated activity you ever got a gorilla to do?

What's the longest you were able to get a gorilla to actively do anything at all?

1 ~ Hard to say. Maybe stacking car tires, in order from largest on the bottom, to smallest on the top. Hmm... in almost "pyramid" shape, one could say.

2 ~ About a half-hour, give or take; after that there's usually around twenty minutes or so before he'll work again. That's one of the primary differences between humans and gorillas: they have shorter attention spans. A silverback gorilla has to be constantly vigilant, and watching all around him for any potential threat to his tribe; he can't afford to focus his attention on one thing for terribly long.

In any case, it isn't as if I'm pushing for the gorilla hypothesis here; I think it's as improbable as everyone else (which, to be fair, is still considerably more probable that aliens or dinosaurs). I'm simply indicating the facts about gorillas here; that, regardless of whether they actually were involved or not, it wouldn't be terrifically farfetched to suggest that gorillas would have been capable of assisting with the construction of the pyramids. That is, of course, a completely different statement than: "gorillas built the pyramids".

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I'm glad that you commented, kmt_sesh; I was most interested to see your take on it. It was just an interesting thought that a friend of mine had. And yes, oy... creationists... The dinosaur "theory" of pyramid construction honestly has to be even more improbable than giants or aliens or such like. Now that's something you'd think the Egyptians would have mentioned! Dinosaurs building the pyramids... oy... egads, the tripe some people believe...

I'm glad you found my reply acceptable because after posting it I was afraid I might have come across as flippant, which wasn't my intent. Well, about the gorillas, specifically. I'll be extremely flippant about aliens and creationists and other folks not of this world. :P

I should've taken the time to expound on my post, if only briefly (which isn't easy for me, of course). Archaeologists have recovered a dizzying array of animal bones (and animal mummies) from the ancient Egyptian world, many of them deliberately and respectfully buried by mankind. This includes everything from elephants to shrews. And while countless baboons were interred or mummified, I can't think of any example of the bones of a gorilla dating to the pharaonic period. Were they even indigenous to Egypt at some time? Not that many of the baboons were—many of them were imported from farther south in Africa.

Think of the veritable army of gorillas it would've taken to assist with something like the Great Pyramid. Even if the gorillas numbered only in the hundreds, could humans have controlled them adequately?

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I'm glad you found my reply acceptable because after posting it I was afraid I might have come across as flippant, which wasn't my intent. Well, about the gorillas, specifically. I'll be extremely flippant about aliens and creationists and other folks not of this world. :P

I should've taken the time to expound on my post, if only briefly (which isn't easy for me, of course). Archaeologists have recovered a dizzying array of animal bones (and animal mummies) from the ancient Egyptian world, many of them deliberately and respectfully buried by mankind. This includes everything from elephants to shrews. And while countless baboons were interred or mummified, I can't think of any example of the bones of a gorilla dating to the pharaonic period. Were they even indigenous to Egypt at some time? Not that many of the baboons were—many of them were imported from farther south in Africa.

Think of the veritable army of gorillas it would've taken to assist with something like the Great Pyramid. Even if the gorillas numbered only in the hundreds, could humans have controlled them adequately?

Probably not. :lol:

post-74391-0-49775100-1349823974_thumb.j

cormac

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I'm glad you found my reply acceptable because after posting it I was afraid I might have come across as flippant, which wasn't my intent. Well, about the gorillas, specifically. I'll be extremely flippant about aliens and creationists and other folks not of this world. :P

I should've taken the time to expound on my post, if only briefly (which isn't easy for me, of course). Archaeologists have recovered a dizzying array of animal bones (and animal mummies) from the ancient Egyptian world, many of them deliberately and respectfully buried by mankind. This includes everything from elephants to shrews. And while countless baboons were interred or mummified, I can't think of any example of the bones of a gorilla dating to the pharaonic period. Were they even indigenous to Egypt at some time? Not that many of the baboons were—many of them were imported from farther south in Africa.

Think of the veritable army of gorillas it would've taken to assist with something like the Great Pyramid. Even if the gorillas numbered only in the hundreds, could humans have controlled them adequately?

Gorillas I think would have to have been imported, like the baboons, if there's any chance they ever were found in Egypt. I don't know if an army would be necessary, but indeed, significant numbers would be needed; on the order of at least fifty (which would amount to the equivalent in strength of approximately 200 humans). It would be a challenge, to be sure; it would be very difficult to capture and import that many specimens, particularly over long distances, and with the equipment available at the time. The only really feasible solution would be the capture of infants, and have them reared in Egypt, although this could be problematic given that a gigantic supply of food would need to be imported as well, given gorillas' diet is not endemic to Egypt, as I understand it. So, fifty or more infant gorillas, transported over hundreds of miles along with lifetime supplies of acceptable vegetation for all of them = extremely unlikely scenario. That, coupled of course with the noted fact that we don't see any evidence of these individuals, which would have needed to be cared for very intimately as they were raised, makes it appear as though it didn't happen.

Well, it was an interesting hypothesis whilst it lasted (certainly better than dinosaurs...), but I suppose we've just about laid this one to rest.

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1 ~ Hard to say. Maybe stacking car tires, in order from largest on the bottom, to smallest on the top. Hmm... in almost "pyramid" shape, one could say.

2 ~ About a half-hour, give or take; after that there's usually around twenty minutes or so before he'll work again. That's one of the primary differences between humans and gorillas: they have shorter attention spans. A silverback gorilla has to be constantly vigilant, and watching all around him for any potential threat to his tribe; he can't afford to focus his attention on one thing for terribly long.

In any case, it isn't as if I'm pushing for the gorilla hypothesis here; I think it's as improbable as everyone else (which, to be fair, is still considerably more probable that aliens or dinosaurs). I'm simply indicating the facts about gorillas here; that, regardless of whether they actually were involved or not, it wouldn't be terrifically farfetched to suggest that gorillas would have been capable of assisting with the construction of the pyramids. That is, of course, a completely different statement than: "gorillas built the pyramids".

1 ~ Hard to say. Maybe stacking car tires, in order from largest on the bottom, to smallest on the top. Hmm... in almost "pyramid" shape, one could say.

2 ~ About a half-hour, give or take; after that there's usually around twenty minutes or so before he'll work again. That's one of the primary differences between humans and gorillas: they have shorter attention spans. A silverback gorilla has to be constantly vigilant, and watching all around him for any potential threat to his tribe; he can't afford to focus his attention on one thing for terribly long.

In any case, it isn't as if I'm pushing for the gorilla hypothesis here; I think it's as improbable as everyone else (which, to be fair, is still considerably more probable that aliens or dinosaurs). I'm simply indicating the facts about gorillas here; that, regardless of whether they actually were involved or not, it wouldn't be terrifically farfetched to suggest that gorillas would have been capable of assisting with the construction of the pyramids. That is, of course, a completely different statement than: "gorillas built the pyramids".

I confess that I didn't look up gorillas until after I posted. I was thinking of the mountain

gorilla which I had thought was much more aggressive and dangerous than it apparently

really is. I forgot even Koko was a gorilla.

I still have to think aliens were more likely to be a factor than gorillas though I'd grant that

gorillas might be a little more likely to have lifted at least one stone than aliens.

Of course such things are difficult to quantify.

I stand corrected.

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Is there done, if no why if yes- what was result of Thermoluminescence dating of Great pyramid? As I understand it its easy and simple way from where we can conclude when block was cut based on fact that stones on atomic level changes when sun first time hits stone.

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Is there done, if no why if yes- what was result of Thermoluminescence dating of Great pyramid? As I understand it its easy and simple way from where we can conclude when block was cut based on fact that stones on atomic level changes when sun first time hits stone.

L - Your understandings in regards to the details of TL/OSL dating may be more fully informed by the following:

http://core.ecu.edu/...linsond/OSL.htm

http://crustal.usgs....g/section4.html

http://anthro.paloma...time/time_5.htm

Keep in mind the mineral constituency of the limestone of the Mokattam formation. Can supply further explanatory detail at a later date if desired.

.

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L - Your understandings in regards to the details of TL/OSL dating may be more fully informed by the following:

http://core.ecu.edu/...linsond/OSL.htm

http://crustal.usgs....g/section4.html

http://anthro.paloma...time/time_5.htm

Keep in mind the mineral constituency of the limestone of the Mokattam formation. Can supply further explanatory detail at a later date if desired.

.

Thanks on links. So is limestone somehow harder to date? Are you aware of TL dating of GP?

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Is there done, if no why if yes- what was result of Thermoluminescence dating of Great pyramid? As I understand it its easy and simple way from where we can conclude when block was cut based on fact that stones on atomic level changes when sun first time hits stone.

Stil...

Also I have one more question. How many time spent from Egyptians organized and become society, culture , civilization to the time of the first pyramid?

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Stil...

Also I have one more question. How many time spent from Egyptians organized and become society, culture , civilization to the time of the first pyramid?

From the start of Dynastic Egypt to the construction of Djoser's pyramid would be about 500 years. If your asking about the time from the earliest predynastic king, Scorpion 1, then it would be about 720 years.

cormac

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From the start of Dynastic Egypt to the construction of Djoser's pyramid would be about 500 years. If your asking about the time from the earliest predynastic king, Scorpion 1, then it would be about 720 years.

cormac

I read that Egyptians,Mayas and Teotihuacan civilization start building pyramids 400 years after organized themselves. I checked Teotihuacan in two sources and it said 400 years after they settle in area they start building pyramids. Mayas are difficult to trace , differs info from another. And Egyptians even more since I didnt know from which point I will start searching. Thanks.

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LOL Gees, L, you change avatar photos more frequently than I change socks. I can't keep track!

This is not a complaint, mind you. It's just some of us old farts recognize a poster first by his or her avatar photo. Goodness, I changed my signature graphic last night and that's the first time I've touched my profile in ages. But again, I'm an old fart.

Something else to consider about Egypt's development, while we're on the topic. The first-known use of dressed stone is in the burial chamber of Khasekhemwy (2690-2663 BCE), at the end of Dynasty 2. I can't recall the details off the top of my head but if I remember correctly some stone may also have been used in a temple constructed in his reign. This is to say, the Egyptians were already making use of stone engineering, even if tentatively, long before the first pyramid was erected.

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LOL Gees, L, you change avatar photos more frequently than I change socks. I can't keep track!

This is not a complaint, mind you. It's just some of us old farts recognize a poster first by his or her avatar photo. Goodness, I changed my signature graphic last night and that's the first time I've touched my profile in ages. But again, I'm an old fart.

Something else to consider about Egypt's development, while we're on the topic. The first-known use of dressed stone is in the burial chamber of Khasekhemwy (2690-2663 BCE), at the end of Dynasty 2. I can't recall the details off the top of my head but if I remember correctly some stone may also have been used in a temple constructed in his reign. This is to say, the Egyptians were already making use of stone engineering, even if tentatively, long before the first pyramid was erected.

Its my shapeshifting strategy to avoid Moderators...Joke...I couldnt resist Escher cube. I was in dilema to put cube or waterfall. I think cube is just fine.

I read on one slavic forum about 400 years before civilization construct pyramids. But its realy hard to check that info because you can strech point A and point B.

I only checked Teotihuacan and it is true I guess. But others are hard. But if you took cormac info then idea about 400 years falls apart already.

Kmt do you know is there done, if no why if yes- what was result of Thermoluminescence dating of Great pyramid?

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Thanks on links. So is limestone somehow harder to date? Are you aware of TL dating of GP?

Thermoluminescence dating (TL) is utilized to determine the last time that an artifact was exposed to high temperatures (e.g., fire). It is most commonly utilized to date artifacts such as pottery or features such as clay hearths. Thus, the application of TL dating to Giza structures would be pointless.

The type of dating that you are likely referring to would be Optically Stimulated Luminescence dating (OSL). Without going into great depth, this method of dating determines the last time that an artifact was exposed to sunlight. Exposure to other light sources can zero the accumulated electron charge in the mineral matrices. OSL is only effective when dealing with quartz and feldspar.

The above factors would limit the effectiveness/practicality of OSL dating in regards to Giza structures.

Am unaware of any related OSL studies.

.

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Its my shapeshifting strategy to avoid Moderators...Joke...

A pretty damn good joke. :D

I read on one slavic forum about 400 years before civilization construct pyramids. But its realy hard to check that info because you can strech point A and point B.

I only checked Teotihuacan and it is true I guess. But others are hard. But if you took cormac info then idea about 400 years falls apart already.

It's going to depend largely on the development of the society in question. Every civilization is different and there is no set timescale for socio-political development. You can also think of the Aztecs, who built their own pyramidal structures. The Aztecs were around for only a couple of hundred years. Plus there is cross-cultural transfer to consider. While there's no connection between ancient Egypt and Mesoamerica, there was significant connection between ancient Egypt and Nubia, and the Nubians underwent numerous cultural transformations through the millennia before they built their pyramids—as a direct consequence of their long influence under Egyptian dominion.

Kmt do you know is there done, if no why if yes- what was result of Thermoluminescence dating of Great pyramid?

See Swede's comments on thermoluminescence. Swede also mentioned OSL, and I'm not sure it would work on the Great Pyramid. If such has been attempted, I've never read about it. The carbon dating conducted in 1984 and 1995 stands as definitive and no one in Egyptian studies has questioned the findings, so far as I'm aware.

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Having searched, I find no mention of Queen Hetephere's pyramid in this thread, though it is in others. The question here, is as her tomb was undisturbed, presumably, between initial sealing and modern opening, and well preseved wooden artifacts were discovered, then has carbon dating been done on any of these objects? My thinking is that it will at least give a reasonable date of construction her pyramid, which surely will be within the same range as GP. Further, what, if any, carbon dating has been done on objects that, by normal reasoning, predate GP. Would this not give a bracket within which building of GP will fall, not very precise of course, but should at least preclude the wilder speculations of it's age. Seems more acurate than trying to age the stones themselves.

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What is the effect of the geomagnetic field on gravity?

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What is the effect of the geomagnetic field on gravity?

There is no magnetic interaction with gravity.

Harte

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Having searched, I find no mention of Queen Hetephere's pyramid in this thread, though it is in others. The question here, is as her tomb was undisturbed, presumably, between initial sealing and modern opening, and well preseved wooden artifacts were discovered, then has carbon dating been done on any of these objects? My thinking is that it will at least give a reasonable date of construction her pyramid, which surely will be within the same range as GP. Further, what, if any, carbon dating has been done on objects that, by normal reasoning, predate GP. Would this not give a bracket within which building of GP will fall, not very precise of course, but should at least preclude the wilder speculations of it's age. Seems more acurate than trying to age the stones themselves.

The stones of the Great Pyramid have not been subjected to dating methods, as I understand it. Chemical analyses have been conducted, but that's something different. Trying to date the stones is more geological than archaeological, anyway. That's why extensive carbon dating has been conducted on forty-some mortar samples from the Great Pyramid. Being organic in nature, mortar is an archaeologist's friend and is well suited to carbon dating. And the C14 dating that was conducted on the Great Pyramid confirms that the monument dates to the relative date which has always been assigned to it, although it's possible the pyramid is a century or so older than originally thought.

Hetepheres' tomb is not a pyramid but a shaft tomb designated G7000x. It was a concealed burial accidentally discovered by a photographer setting up his tripod east of the Great Pyramid, in February 1925. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but earlier in this thread there was a lot of attention paid to the small queen's pyramid on the east side of the Great Pyramid which is mentioned in the Inventory Stela—the stela mentions the pyramid was made for a royal daughter named Henutsen, so are you thinking of this, maybe? The stela dates to many centuries after the time of Khufu and there isn't even evidence that a royal lady named Henutsen existed in Khufu's court, but that's another debate.

It was in Hetepheres' shaft tomb G7000x where the wonderful furniture was found, so you're right about that. To my knowledge, however, none of it has been subjected to carbon dating. There's no real cause to do so. That the furniture and other burial equipment belonged to Queen Hetepheres is beyond question. Moreover, Hetepheres' furniture represents not only one of the largest deposits of ancient Egyptian furniture ever found, but by far one of the oldest. Even with the tiny samples required for modern C14 dating, it wouldn't be worth it to damage her furniture.

Your question about tests performed on monuments predating the Great Pyramid is an excellent one. That sort of bracketing was indeed considered. In the C14 analyses conducted on the Great Pyramid in 1984 and 1995, many other monuments of the Old Kingdom and Middle Kingdom were analyzed. This includes several Saqqara tombs dating all the way back to Dynasty 1 (Early Dynastic Period). The calibrated dates for Tomb 3357, for example, average around 2900 BCE (Bonani et al 2001: 1312). The conventional relative dates for Dynasty 1 are around 3050-2813 BCE, so in this case the carbon dating seems to be dead on. Several Dynasty 3 monuments were tested, as were several from early Dynasty 4, so the overall testing was well bracketed.

As I like to point out to the alien crowd and Atlantis fans (et al), modern science has corroborated historical research. :tu:

The report for the carbon dating can be downloaded as a PDF from this link.

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The stones of the Great Pyramid have not been subjected to dating methods, as I understand it.

Even if you dated the stones you would hardly get the construction date of the pyramid as the stone is much older.

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Having searched, I find no mention of Queen Hetephere's pyramid in this thread, though it is in others. The question here, is as her tomb was undisturbed, presumably, between initial sealing and modern opening, and well preseved wooden artifacts were discovered, then has carbon dating been done on any of these objects? My thinking is that it will at least give a reasonable date of construction her pyramid, which surely will be within the same range as GP. Further, what, if any, carbon dating has been done on objects that, by normal reasoning, predate GP. Would this not give a bracket within which building of GP will fall, not very precise of course, but should at least preclude the wilder speculations of it's age. Seems more acurate than trying to age the stones themselves.

I must amend my earlier post about Hetepheres. I had forgotten that the small queen's pyramid designated G1a has been attributed to her. Cormac reminded me of this fact. I checked Miroslav Verner's excellent book on the pyramids and he explains how Mark Lehner has suggested Hetepheres was originally buried in G1a, while other scholars argue the little pyramid was for a queen of Khufu's named Meretites (2001: 210-211).

In other books and papers I've read, Hetepheres' original tomb is speculated to have been at Meidum or Dashur, the two principal building grounds of her husband and Khufu's father, Sneferu. It remains only speculative because no tomb at either of those sites can be definitively linked to hers. Nor can G1a for that matter, but it's plausible. In any case her shaft burial G7000x is clearly a secondary burial.

To my knowledge the mortar of the small queens' pyramids on the east side of the Great Pyramid has not been subjected to carbon dating.

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To my knowledge the mortar of the small queens' pyramids on the east side of the Great Pyramid has not been subjected to carbon dating.

If it was there is no publication about it.

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As I like to point out to the alien crowd and Atlantis fans (et al), modern science has corroborated historical research. :tu:

I was going by Lehner about G1a belonging to Hetephere's. Though I.E.S Edwards writes that she would almost certainly have inhabited the shaft tomb first, not least because of the canopic jar found with it's contents. Sometimes it almost seems that the AE were playing games to confuse us in the future :wacko:

However, not being sure about showing a video in these serious threads, I couldn't resist this video about the time travelling grandad and his grandson who discover the truth about the pyramids. Very short clip from 40 minute cartoon. Don't matter not understanding the words, the pictures tell the story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8rNjuOEcjA&feature=share&list=PL13AF7F3C6952FAEA

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri

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