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Arbitran

Scientific evidence of "spirits"

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I've studied the topic to some extent, and I'm rather on the fence about the existence of "spirits". First of all, if someone could give a coherent definition of a "spirit" or "spiritual" (so many times when discussing this, people just throw around these terms, assuming that everyone will know what they're talking about...). Certainly so far, I have seen no convincing scientific evidence of the existence of "spirits".

However, in light of new theories in physics and biology (Sheldrake, Goswami, Bohm, Bell, Swanson, etc.), I find the possibility of unseen and undetected fields or matter-energy forms which science has yet to conclusively observe. For instance, as a biologist myself, I am intrigued by the theories of "morphogenetic fields" as interpreted by the prestigious English biologist Rupert Sheldrake; as a type of invisible, weakly-interacting physical field, which is proposed to organize the morphology and structure of cells, organs, limbs, entire organisms, social groups, and even mental constructs. Given the relative mystique of the process of morphogenesis (the development of the form of an organism; for example, that the cells in your fingers and your toes share the same genome, and yet are shaped differently), I am intrigued by his hypothesis.

Of course, genes are known to have some definite role in the development of particular body forms, and evolve and alter the morphology of a population of organisms over time through allelic frequency shifts and gene flow. This is obvious. And yet, I feel that it would be naive of us to assume that genes are the sole process involved in morphogenesis (as, again, if observed only on a cellular basis or molecular basis, your arm and your leg would be completely indistinguishable). But I digress. To return to spirits, I do not find it completely inconceivable that something like morphic fields or certain aspects of quantum mechanics could be considered "spirits", in some sense.

In particular I find the parallels which can be drawn to Eastern ideology (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Shinto) by these scientific theories are remarkable. It has been said that the Sheldrake-Goswami-Bohm model of morphic-quantum field theory is in some ways comparable to animistic or otherwise paranormal concepts, in that these morphic or quantum fields are claimed as having intrinsic properties of "memory", and in their proposed organization of mental processes, hypothetically could be thought of as having a sort of "consciousness" or inherent "life" to them. Concepts such as qi and prana likewise fail to escape my attention when thinking of such things. So might "spirits" or claimed "paranormal" phenomena be explainable through complex theories such as the Sheldrake-Goswami-Bohm field model, or Claude Swanson's "synchronized universe" hypothesis? Admittedly, I'm no expert in physics, but I evidently understand it well enough to think there could be something to these theories (the fact that eminent physicists such as David Bohm are involved is doubly impressive).

And as far as biology goes, it's fascinating at the very least; and potentially groundbreaking at best. It certainly would appear to explain a number of very enigmatic phenomena. So, any thoughts? And to return to the original premise of this thread (sorry for the slight deviation), does anyone claim to have scientific evidence of "spirits", or any alternative hypotheses, which might explain any number of the phenomena noted above? I will thank you all in advance for your assistance.

Edited by Arbitran
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i dont understand a word you have said . are you perhaps talking about the movie prometheus?

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i dont understand a word you have said . are you perhaps talking about the movie prometheus?

Of course not. It's all a bit scientific, sure, but either way...

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There is something going on, but I can't put it in a bottle and sell it on eBay. In my mind yes there are spirits from my own experience. What they are or how it works, I don't know. I think it has something to do with vibration...

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There is something going on, but I can't put it in a bottle and sell it on eBay. In my mind yes there are spirits from my own experience. What they are or how it works, I don't know. I think it has something to do with vibration...

It's all quite fascinating. For example, we've never seen or directly detected even a speck of dark matter, we simply see it's effects. I'm intriguing by the possibility of things like Sheldrake's morphic fields, and the possibility that there are forces or fields, perhaps all around us, that we haven't detected. I mean, dark matter is passing through our bodies every single second, and we've never observed a single speck. Who's to say there aren't other things about our universe that we simply haven't detected yet? That's part of the certain mystique I suppose there is to the Sheldrake-Goswami-Bohm model...

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If you consider that an Aura of energy is proof of the existence of spirit, then science has already discovered it.

The tip of this leaf was cut off prior to having it's aura photographed, yet the outline of the cut tip of the leaf is still there.

phantom_leaf.jpg

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If you consider that an Aura of energy is proof of the existence of spirit, then science has already discovered it.

The tip of this leaf was cut off prior to having it's aura photographed, yet the outline of the cut tip of the leaf is still there.

phantom_leaf.jpg

I do consider that a possibility. I've heard refutations of Kirlian photography, so I'm a bit on the fence about it. Although this particular photography would be explainable under one aspect of the Sheldrake-Goswami-Bohm model: namely, that the field that comprise and permeate the leaf would still be present, even if part of the leaf is removed. It's not completely unreasonable.

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I don't know how you would get scientific evidence of spirits, at least none anyone will buy. Its hard to convince someone of a ghost, spirit, whatever until they have a an encounter themselves. Unless they can come up with something that can actually tap into that realm of existence.

I saw a ghost so I don't need convincing. Do I believe every story that is told, of course not.

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Ahh... Now this is what I am talking about. A scientific theory that admits at least the chance that "spirits" or at least lifeforms similar to what people commonly think of as spirits. Excellent post Arbitran. Some people claim to be able to sense spirits, and I myself have at times felt like their is someone around me even when their is no body their, I have no idea how that would work scientifically through.

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I do consider that a possibility. I've heard refutations of Kirlian photography, so I'm a bit on the fence about it.

There will always be refutations about every scrap of evidence no matter how grand that evidence is..

At the end of the day it takes a personal experience or leap of faith to make one believe.

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I do consider that a possibility. I've heard refutations of Kirlian photography, so I'm a bit on the fence about it. Although this particular photography would be explainable under one aspect of the Sheldrake-Goswami-Bohm model: namely, that the field that comprise and permeate the leaf would still be present, even if part of the leaf is removed. It's not completely unreasonable.

Snip

Edited by Seeker79

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If you consider that an Aura of energy is proof of the existence of spirit, then science has already discovered it.

The tip of this leaf was cut off prior to having it's aura photographed, yet the outline of the cut tip of the leaf is still there.

phantom_leaf.jpg

Interesting. Is that potograph repeatable?

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I was supposed to attend sheldrakes lecture this week, but to tied up.

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Interesting. Is that potograph repeatable?

I think so. I havn't looked into this much myself, but have an old book on the subject somewhere..

Here's a pretty cool one.. thanks google.

kirlian-mushroom.jpg

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Kirlain photography is what the images are I do believe.

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I was supposed to attend sheldrakes lecture this week, but to tied up.

That's a shame. His work on the development of plants is fascinating (though I admit it's not really my field; I work mostly in animals, particularly marine biology and the evolution and behavior of land animals).

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I ment if I take pictures this way, can I see the missing part?

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That's a shame. His work on the development of plants is fascinating (though I admit it's not really my field; I work mostly in animals, particularly marine biology and the evolution and behavior of land animals).

Crap.... You know I should just go. We have been corrisponding a bit. I want to meet him. let me think it over. I may have a report if I go.

Edit:

ehhhh I don't know. It's at the eslaine institute. It's sold as a workshop, but it seems like part of a book tour. I hate paying for stuff only to be sold stuff. I'll email him and see what he is going to be talking about?

Here is the info

http://webapp.esalen.org/workshops/11440

Edited by Seeker79
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Crap.... You know I should just go. We have been corrisponding a bit. I want to meet him. let me think it over. I may have a report if I go.

That would be fascinating to hear about. I hope you do decide to go.

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Well on third thought, I need to get away from some carnage right now. the esalan institutes seems perfect. Hot springs, trails, massages. I notice there is no one offering some things I can teach, it might be a good business ooertunity, I can write off the trip ;) Mabey make some contacts to let me run a workshop once a year.

If I can get my business covered and my kids to school on Friday, I'm outa here.

Edited by Seeker79
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If you go Seeker maybe you can post what you learn? Sometimes when you go to workshops you end up meeting people who know some interesting stuff other than the speaker.

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Personally I doubt that there is any scientific evidence for spirits, even though part of me tends to think maybe they do exist, but getting hard evidence is tough in this day and age.

Years ago when I suffered from depression, I did see things or at least I thought I saw them.. I believed I saw spirits passing me by and being in the same room as me... I was convinced after a short while that I could see and at times feel spirits close by. A year later, I had gotten back to my old self and the depression had left me, as I continued to stay in the norm ( busy, work, mothering ect ) I no longer saw the spirits, nor did I feel them close. ... It was as if they disappeared as I was getting stronger and moving on with my life. I have not seen or felt one near me ever since, so I peg what was happening to me at the time of my depression, was down to mind tricks... I honestly cannot explain too much on what it really was...but when I step away and look at the bigger picture, I only felt it and thought I was experiencing them when suffering with depression...I noticed that long after beating depression and getting back to normal it was no more, it all went away, no more strange happenings or spirits.......is that weird? Truth is I have no idea.

As much as I would love to find real scientific evidence for spirits, I cannot say I have heard of any....I now doubt there ever was or ever will be.. Well I am a skeptic for many things..I cannot help that..I always think ( in many cases ) that we have other explanations for these sort of things.. Part of me craves to believe, and part of me is sceptical !

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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I don't think we have the technology to identify something like spirits, they are on a different plane/dimension/universe to ours (IMO) and that kind of technology is just a dream.

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I've studied the topic to some extent, and I'm rather on the fence about the existence of "spirits". First of all, if someone could give a coherent definition of a "spirit" or "spiritual" (so many times when discussing this, people just throw around these terms, assuming that everyone will know what they're talking about...). Certainly so far, I have seen no convincing scientific evidence of the existence of "spirits".

However, in light of new theories in physics and biology (Sheldrake, Goswami, Bohm, Bell, Swanson, etc.), I find the possibility of unseen and undetected fields or matter-energy forms which science has yet to conclusively observe. For instance, as a biologist myself, I am intrigued by the theories of "morphogenetic fields" as interpreted by the prestigious English biologist Rupert Sheldrake; as a type of invisible, weakly-interacting physical field, which is proposed to organize the morphology and structure of cells, organs, limbs, entire organisms, social groups, and even mental constructs. Given the relative mystique of the process of morphogenesis (the development of the form of an organism; for example, that the cells in your fingers and your toes share the same genome, and yet are shaped differently), I am intrigued by his hypothesis.

Of course, genes are known to have some definite role in the development of particular body forms, and evolve and alter the morphology of a population of organisms over time through allelic frequency shifts and gene flow. This is obvious. And yet, I feel that it would be naive of us to assume that genes are the sole process involved in morphogenesis (as, again, if observed only on a cellular basis or molecular basis, your arm and your leg would be completely indistinguishable). But I digress. To return to spirits, I do not find it completely inconceivable that something like morphic fields or certain aspects of quantum mechanics could be considered "spirits", in some sense.

In particular I find the parallels which can be drawn to Eastern ideology (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Shinto) by these scientific theories are remarkable. It has been said that the Sheldrake-Goswami-Bohm model of morphic-quantum field theory is in some ways comparable to animistic or otherwise paranormal concepts, in that these morphic or quantum fields are claimed as having intrinsic properties of "memory", and in their proposed organization of mental processes, hypothetically could be thought of as having a sort of "consciousness" or inherent "life" to them. Concepts such as qi and prana likewise fail to escape my attention when thinking of such things. So might "spirits" or claimed "paranormal" phenomena be explainable through complex theories such as the Sheldrake-Goswami-Bohm field model, or Claude Swanson's "synchronized universe" hypothesis? Admittedly, I'm no expert in physics, but I evidently understand it well enough to think there could be something to these theories (the fact that eminent physicists such as David Bohm are involved is doubly impressive).

And as far as biology goes, it's fascinating at the very least; and potentially groundbreaking at best. It certainly would appear to explain a number of very enigmatic phenomena. So, any thoughts? And to return to the original premise of this thread (sorry for the slight deviation), does anyone claim to have scientific evidence of "spirits", or any alternative hypotheses, which might explain any number of the phenomena noted above? I will thank you all in advance for your assistance.

As far as the difference between different structures we already know that genes are not the only thing at work. There are chemical signals, epigenetics, and environmental factors (the environment where the growth is occuring not the general environment). If "spirits" are diffusible biochemical signals than I guess you might be on to something.

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If you go Seeker maybe you can post what you learn? Sometimes when you go to workshops you end up meeting people who know some interesting stuff other than the speaker.

Mr. Sheldrake actually just emailed me back, he such a graceful person, and confirmed its pretty much part of his book. But that's ok, the subject is what I have been arguing on these forums for several years now, and he is leading the charge. If any thing I will come back even more armed against our resident skeptics ;) ;)

Im trying to organize my business as we speak. If everything goes well, I'll go if only to start developing some contacts. I'll be doing a lot of meditation there, taking advantage of their hot springs, and baths etc.

The funny thing is I have done many solo wilderness trips deep into the ventana wilderness. There was a mountain in the distance that I was always drawn to, but I never made it to it. It turns out the institute is right on the other side. Got to follow this bread crumb. I will write it up if I can pull it off. I should know by the end of the day.

Edited by Seeker79
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