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Arbitran

Scientific evidence of "spirits"

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Mr. Sheldrake actually just emailed me back, he such a graceful person, and confirmed its pretty much part of his book. But that's ok, the subject is what I have been arguing on these forums for several years now, and he is leading the charge. If any thing I will come back even more armed against our resident skeptics ;) ;)

Im trying to organize my business as we speak. If everything goes well, I'll go if only to start developing some contacts. I'll be doing a lot of meditation there, taking advantage of their hot springs, and baths etc.

The funny thing is I have done many solo wilderness trips deep into the ventana wilderness. There was a mountain in the distance that I was always drawn to, but I never made it to it. It turns out the institute is right on the other side. Got to follow this bread crumb. I will write it up if I can pull it off. I should know by the end of the day.

I'm in.... My staff is covering my classes, and my niece is takeing my middle one to school. Score. It's going to be a nice weekend.

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I'm in.... My staff is covering my classes, and my niece is takeing my middle one to school. Score. It's going to be a nice weekend.

Enjoy Seeker my Friend :)

Regards,

Me

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As far as the difference between different structures we already know that genes are not the only thing at work. There are chemical signals, epigenetics, and environmental factors (the environment where the growth is occuring not the general environment). If "spirits" are diffusible biochemical signals than I guess you might be on to something.

I am of course aware of these other factors. And I'm not suggesting that "spirits" are real or not. Just sort of posting a stream of thought, in some sense...

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I'm not scientist, so have no hope of ever presenting evidence. I'm like Hilander, while I've seen "ghosts" and other things, I don't believe every story I hear. I think there's more than one type of "spirit". The ghosts I've seen weren't like the TV or movie ghosts, but instead seemed to be intelligent & conscious & cognizant,more like people carrying on with their lives but in a different dimension.

I do ceremony & ritual with friends, and somewhere along the way, during ceremony, our consciousness shifts so that we becomes more aware of energy & the presence of unseen others in the room. I've thought about this, and wondered if maybe all of what we sense during an altered state of consciousness is always present, always all around us, but it is mostly during ceremony, when our consciousness shifts, that we sense or see them. In other words, nothing changes but us and our heightened awareness. I'm not seeing these entities and energies as ghosts, spirits, or necessarily anything sacred either, just beings living in a different dimension who choose to interact with us.

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I'm not scientist, so have no hope of ever presenting evidence. I'm like Hilander, while I've seen "ghosts" and other things, I don't believe every story I hear. I think there's more than one type of "spirit". The ghosts I've seen weren't like the TV or movie ghosts, but instead seemed to be intelligent & conscious & cognizant,more like people carrying on with their lives but in a different dimension.

I do ceremony & ritual with friends, and somewhere along the way, during ceremony, our consciousness shifts so that we becomes more aware of energy & the presence of unseen others in the room. I've thought about this, and wondered if maybe all of what we sense during an altered state of consciousness is always present, always all around us, but it is mostly during ceremony, when our consciousness shifts, that we sense or see them. In other words, nothing changes but us and our heightened awareness. I'm not seeing these entities and energies as ghosts, spirits, or necessarily anything sacred either, just beings living in a different dimension who choose to interact with us.

Were you smoking anything at the time??

fullywired

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Were you smoking anything at the time??

fullywired

A shift of consciousness/perception is pretty common during ceremony. I think there's also physical changes that occur,i.e. respiration, brain waves shifting from beta to alpha, possibly some changes in chemical secretions of the brain. One of the reasons people put their bodies through physical stress, i.e. fasting, scourging, Sun dance, is to attain the shift of consciousness.

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Enjoy Seeker my Friend :)

Regards,

Me

I'm here now. Workshop begins in 10 minutes. Beautiful place.

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Interesting. Is that potograph repeatable?

Kirlian photography has been repeating things like this for years. I first saw it on TV in the 70's when it became a hot new age subject. A lot of mystical stuff is all about different fields but for some reason only the physicists and scientists get to say they discovered so and so when some people have studied their effects for thousands of years.

I find it so ironic that a lot of research scientists today also read about ancient theories and even use the same names that were used by alchemists when they prove a theory or discover a new particle. I was surprised when I was reading an old alchemy manuscript from the 1700s which was talking about ATOMS and even used that word, amazing.

Old Hebrew books talk a lot of about the levels of soul and El which is like a force of creative power which could be viewed electromagnetism. We get our word electricity from it. Tesla referred to reading of the ancient knowledge and I bet Einstein was exposed to the old Hebrew books about space time and matter.

Like astronomy, some people obviously had an understanding of such things centuries ago but lost it in all the natural disasters and wars, I don't know why mainstream doesn't admit that a lot of science and quantum physics really started from an inspiration from the writings of "hidden wisdom" Hidden because it was science and the masters were considered to heretics to be burned!

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After thinking about this topic for over 40 years, I do have a couple of comments on the original topic.

Theoretical physicists are becoming comfortable with the idea that, in addition to material particles and energy we know in traditional science, there may likely also be some form of information that guides the structure and perhaps even the process of reality. This information we cannot see or experience directly, but we observe its impact daily. This information may be non-material in nature, but it is still physical and so is quite possibly within the study of physics and representable in mathematics. Information as precursor to the material world we know actually makes sense. We don't build things without blueprints, so why not a blueprint of the universe? This has been reflected in the notions of bio-information fields and the holographic universe concept. It also may imply that we are fact hyperdimensional beings - that we exist, in other words in dimensions beyond the four known dimensions of conventional spacetime.

The one hint that all of this might exist is the presence of our own memories. If these turn out to be external to our material bodies, as much of the psi research suggests, our memories may exist in this hyperdimensional information space. Some sort of isolation mechanism may normally keep this specific type of information isolated to each of us, which is why we would not normally know each others' thoughts. However, it we look carefully as cases of telepathy, synchronicity, remote viewing, mediumship and even some apparitional phenomena, we find there is a common link: all of these are based in some way upon the relevance of the experience of knowledge to the person experiencing it. So relevance may be what allows us or causes us to know what is going on outside our normal sphere of understanding in the information space. We also now suspect that magentic fields energize this space (see the work of Dr. James Beichler for more on this) and this in turn means that memories could survive. Materialists would be right, that if memories were simply produced by our living brains, everything would be gone at death. But what they don't consider, and Beichler points out, is that the magnetic component of the action potentials in our brains are likely hyperdimensional. (This may be why we cannot directly detect the magnetic vector component in physics, for example - one of those inconvenient truths physicsists like to ignore).

Since these memories can persist over time in this information space, we would expect to have memories of the past and even potentially be able to share or know others' memories for some time, whether they be living or dead.

All of this also has implications for the model of future time and suggests we may live in an evolving universe, not the block universe many physicists seem to think is the case. The "future" and the "past" may only exist as information - so it would not be possible to physically go there. And that resolves a whole host of paradoxes that might otherwise plague the universe. If the future does indeed exist solely as information potentials, it would follow it could change. Much as our common experience of future plans change. And that would not only suggest the possibility of pre-cognition (albeit not necessarily always guaranteed, which is exactly what happens quite often) but also that free will and volition are quite real thus suggesting that everything is not predestined, and that we do bear responsibility for our own actions.

This is only a brief overview, but hopefully readers get the flavor of the ideas which will be coming out in a new book sometime next year.

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Kirlian photography has been repeating things like this for years. I first saw it on TV in the 70's when it became a hot new age subject. A lot of mystical stuff is all about different fields but for some reason only the physicists and scientists get to say they discovered so and so when some people have studied their effects for thousands of years.

Well firstly, Kirlian photography has not been known for thousands of years.

Secondly, scientists wouldn't have said they had discovered it, only that they'd explained it.

I find it so ironic that a lot of research scientists today also read about ancient theories and even use the same names that were used by alchemists when they prove a theory or discover a new particle. I was surprised when I was reading an old alchemy manuscript from the 1700s which was talking about ATOMS and even used that word, amazing.

Not really amazing no. Just because scientists use a word that someone 300 years ago used, doesn't mean that every bit of cobbled together belief from 300 years ago is valid in today's science.

Oh, and "atom" is actually an ancient Greek word, nothing to do with alchemists.

I'd ask you this - how many particles have been discovered using 1700's alchemy? Actual particles - not a vague waffley description that can be read in any number of ways.

Old Hebrew books talk a lot of about the levels of soul and El which is like a force of creative power which could be viewed electromagnetism. We get our word electricity from it. Tesla referred to reading of the ancient knowledge and I bet Einstein was exposed to the old Hebrew books about space time and matter.

"Could be viewed as electromagnetism". Right, so how many theories, predictions and experiments have arisen out of what was written in "old Hebrew books"? I can tell you: less than one. Exactly how is it like electromagnetism? Any more than the strong nuclear force? Or the weak nuclear force? Or gravity?

Can you show how Tesla used "ancient knowledge" in his work, and what "old Hebrew books" refer specifically to special and general relativity?

Like astronomy, some people obviously had an understanding of such things centuries ago but lost it in all the natural disasters and wars!

No, this isn't obvious. Astronomy is simple maths. Relativity and advanced physics was not known by the "ancients", and no amount of fluffy new age misreadings on your part can change this.

I don't know why mainstream doesn't admit that a lot of science and quantum physics really started from an inspiration from the writings of "hidden wisdom" Hidden because it was science and the masters were considered to heretics to be burned!

It doesn't admit it, because it wasn't. There is nothing in the history of quantum physics that has anything to do with "hidden wisdom" - unless you want to wheel out some specifics?

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I find it so ironic that a lot of research scientists today also read about ancient theories and even use the same names that were used by alchemists when they prove a theory or discover a new particle. I was surprised when I was reading an old alchemy manuscript from the 1700s which was talking about ATOMS and even used that word, amazing.
I find it strange that someone has just picked up that some words have multiple meanings.

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Well firstly, Kirlian photography has not been known for thousands of years.

Secondly, scientists wouldn't have said they had discovered it, only that they'd explained it.

Not really amazing no. Just because scientists use a word that someone 300 years ago used, doesn't mean that every bit of cobbled together belief from 300 years ago is valid in today's science.

Oh, and "atom" is actually an ancient Greek word, nothing to do with alchemists.

I'd ask you this - how many particles have been discovered using 1700's alchemy? Actual particles - not a vague waffley description that can be read in any number of ways.

"Could be viewed as electromagnetism". Right, so how many theories, predictions and experiments have arisen out of what was written in "old Hebrew books"? I can tell you: less than one. Exactly how is it like electromagnetism? Any more than the strong nuclear force? Or the weak nuclear force? Or gravity?

Can you show how Tesla used "ancient knowledge" in his work, and what "old Hebrew books" refer specifically to special and general relativity?

No, this isn't obvious. Astronomy is simple maths. Relativity and advanced physics was not known by the "ancients", and no amount of fluffy new age misreadings on your part can change this.

It doesn't admit it, because it wasn't. There is nothing in the history of quantum physics that has anything to do with "hidden wisdom" - unless you want to wheel out some specifics?

The effect proved by Kirlian study has been around for thousands of years

Atom is a Greek word, the Greek alchemists would agree with that.

The vague waffley descripition has been theorized and studied by modern people and chemistry still use ancient elemental symbols today

electromagnetism, its all about different manifestations of the same force in different forms relative to time and space

Tesla wrote about it in his papers during his experiments in Colorado. It was his quest to harness the ancient energy and use it.

Time space, matter and the relationship of light is all about relativity and I said that because I know Einstein was Jewish and that would have had an effect on his contemplations of the universe.

Ancients had knowledge of astronomy when building their ancient structures etc so why is it so outlandish to think a few of them developed other sciences as well.

Basically, many scientists study ancient concepts and further their own research and experiments by the inspiration of ideas from the past. I call it speculative curiosity on their part.

Kirlian photography shows the mysterious "mythical" ohr or light or aura

The leaf still there even though severed is a form of spirit, a field, or whatever else people want to called it.

A rose is a rose by any other name.

It is what it is and the effect is the same no matter what you call it.

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The effect proved by Kirlian study has been around for thousands of years

The effect of passing electricity over an object while its on a photographic plate has been around for thousands of years?? Really??

Atom is a Greek word, the Greek alchemists would agree with that.

This is getting convoluted already. So your proof that modern science uses "ancient knowledge" is that ancient Greek alchemists would have agreed that "atom" is an ancient Greek word? Arguing not your strong point then?

The vague waffley descripition has been theorized and studied by modern people and chemistry still use ancient elemental symbols today

So what? All symbols and language are derived from older uses. I use a lot of Latin words at work, but does that mean graphic design uses mystical Roman knowledge? Of course not.

electromagnetism, its all about different manifestations of the same force in different forms relative to time and space

Something tells me you're not a physicist. As I said before - how can you show that these ancient books weren't talking about the strong or weak nuclear forces? Or gravity? Or dark energy?

Tesla wrote about it in his papers during his experiments in Colorado. It was his quest to harness the ancient energy and use it.

What the hell is "ancient energy"? And do you have any sources to illustrate this? (Academic sources, not new age websites or youtube videos).

Time space, matter and the relationship of light is all about relativity and I said that because I know Einstein was Jewish and that would have had an effect on his contemplations of the universe.

Again, you're butchering the physics.

And again, being Jewish doesn't give you som incredible insight into the workings of the universe. Sure, religion may make you think a different way about reality, but that doesn't mean that religious and new age waffle is relevant to science.

Ancients had knowledge of astronomy when building their ancient structures etc so why is it so outlandish to think a few of them developed other sciences as well.

I already answered this, and its exactly the reason why "the ancients" worked out astronomy and not advanced physics. Astronomy is maths. Amongst all the sciences, its relatively intuitive. Quantum physics is not.

Our ancestors simply did not have the framework within which to use advanced physics. And its not just "the ancients" - Tesla couldn't use a lot of his inventions because he simply didn't understand things like advanced material properties.

So much for "knowledge of the ancients".

Basically, many scientists study ancient concepts and further their own research and experiments by the inspiration of ideas from the past. I call it speculative curiosity on their part.

Which scientists? And what papers have been published on the back of "ancient concepts"?

Actual references please.

Kirlian photography shows the mysterious "mythical" ohr or light or aura

No it doesn't. It shows the effect on a photographic plate of electrical charge. The "aura" is a corona discharge. We understand the process well, whether you choose to believe it or not, and it has nothing to do with spiritualism.

The leaf still there even though severed is a form of spirit, a field, or whatever else people want to called it.

Again, this is very well understood. A leaf is photographed on the plate, and then part of it removed. The water residue on the plate stays there, which is picked up by the discharge.

Its a simple process that we understand fully.

It is what it is and the effect is the same no matter what you call it.

Yes, its a well known scientific process, that has nothing to do with spirits, auras, souls or ancient knowledge - no matter what you call it.

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After thinking about this topic for over 40 years, I do have a couple of comments on the original topic.

Theoretical physicists are becoming comfortable with the idea that, in addition to material particles and energy we know in traditional science, there may likely also be some form of information that guides the structure and perhaps even the process of reality. This information we cannot see or experience directly, but we observe its impact daily. This information may be non-material in nature, but it is still physical and so is quite possibly within the study of physics and representable in mathematics. Information as precursor to the material world we know actually makes sense. We don't build things without blueprints, so why not a blueprint of the universe? This has been reflected in the notions of bio-information fields and the holographic universe concept. It also may imply that we are fact hyperdimensional beings - that we exist, in other words in dimensions beyond the four known dimensions of conventional spacetime.

The one hint that all of this might exist is the presence of our own memories. If these turn out to be external to our material bodies, as much of the psi research suggests, our memories may exist in this hyperdimensional information space. Some sort of isolation mechanism may normally keep this specific type of information isolated to each of us, which is why we would not normally know each others' thoughts. However, it we look carefully as cases of telepathy, synchronicity, remote viewing, mediumship and even some apparitional phenomena, we find there is a common link: all of these are based in some way upon the relevance of the experience of knowledge to the person experiencing it. So relevance may be what allows us or causes us to know what is going on outside our normal sphere of understanding in the information space. We also now suspect that magentic fields energize this space (see the work of Dr. James Beichler for more on this) and this in turn means that memories could survive. Materialists would be right, that if memories were simply produced by our living brains, everything would be gone at death. But what they don't consider, and Beichler points out, is that the magnetic component of the action potentials in our brains are likely hyperdimensional. (This may be why we cannot directly detect the magnetic vector component in physics, for example - one of those inconvenient truths physicsists like to ignore).

Since these memories can persist over time in this information space, we would expect to have memories of the past and even potentially be able to share or know others' memories for some time, whether they be living or dead.

All of this also has implications for the model of future time and suggests we may live in an evolving universe, not the block universe many physicists seem to think is the case. The "future" and the "past" may only exist as information - so it would not be possible to physically go there. And that resolves a whole host of paradoxes that might otherwise plague the universe. If the future does indeed exist solely as information potentials, it would follow it could change. Much as our common experience of future plans change. And that would not only suggest the possibility of pre-cognition (albeit not necessarily always guaranteed, which is exactly what happens quite often) but also that free will and volition are quite real thus suggesting that everything is not predestined, and that we do bear responsibility for our own actions.

This is only a brief overview, but hopefully readers get the flavor of the ideas which will be coming out in a new book sometime next year.

Nice I look forward to it. You actually sound a lot like Rupart sheldrake. I just got back from his workshop. If you haven't already, you should read his book " science set free".

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The effect of passing electricity over an object while its on a photographic plate has been around for thousands of years?? Really??

This is getting convoluted already. So your proof that modern science uses "ancient knowledge" is that ancient Greek alchemists would have agreed that "atom" is an ancient Greek word? Arguing not your strong point then?

So what? All symbols and language are derived from older uses. I use a lot of Latin words at work, but does that mean graphic design uses mystical Roman knowledge? Of course not.

Something tells me you're not a physicist. As I said before - how can you show that these ancient books weren't talking about the strong or weak nuclear forces? Or gravity? Or dark energy?

What the hell is "ancient energy"? And do you have any sources to illustrate this? (Academic sources, not new age websites or youtube videos).

Again, you're butchering the physics.

And again, being Jewish doesn't give you som incredible insight into the workings of the universe. Sure, religion may make you think a different way about reality, but that doesn't mean that religious and new age waffle is relevant to science.

I already answered this, and its exactly the reason why "the ancients" worked out astronomy and not advanced physics. Astronomy is maths. Amongst all the sciences, its relatively intuitive. Quantum physics is not.

Our ancestors simply did not have the framework within which to use advanced physics. And its not just "the ancients" - Tesla couldn't use a lot of his inventions because he simply didn't understand things like advanced material properties.

So much for "knowledge of the ancients".

Which scientists? And what papers have been published on the back of "ancient concepts"?

Actual references please.

No it doesn't. It shows the effect on a photographic plate of electrical charge. The "aura" is a corona discharge. We understand the process well, whether you choose to believe it or not, and it has nothing to do with spiritualism.

Again, this is very well understood. A leaf is photographed on the plate, and then part of it removed. The water residue on the plate stays there, which is picked up by the discharge.

Its a simple process that we understand fully.

Yes, its a well known scientific process, that has nothing to do with spirits, auras, souls or ancient knowledge - no matter what you call it.

Again It is what it is and the effect is the same no matter what you call it.

What else is there that hasn't been measured by our instruments in the water vapor effects?

That's for modern reasearchers to discover and prove!

Alcohol was called a "spirit" of wine etc not spiritualism as you refer!

A spirit is NOT a ghost in this context. Its a residue or vapor or even an energy stored- such as the potential of hydrogen atom even contained in H20 Its effects can be observed, comprehended or manipulated by knowledge ond understanding of the concept.

Again my point is scientists study ancient concepts and further their own research and experiments by the inspiration of ideas from the past. I call it speculative curiosity on their part.

It was at Lowell where I first read some of Tesla's papers that brought me closer to the subject of energy fields. He referred to it as ancient energy. He was facinated that more knowledge existed in Egypt then just ancient pottery batteries. I've known physicists and medical researchers who also have interests in the study of ancient concepts because it inspires them to think of different scenarios to test in their research.

They don't often readily admit it to the public that they have that interest on the side. I observed that fact ironic but facinating because the scientists who think out side of the box and discover something usually have the same interest in the past mysteries.

PS

Kirlian was viewed as new age in the 70's that's about all I know about new age movement and that they were into following gurus or something. LOL I don't watch you tube much unless its forced on me, its so National Enquirer unless it's something from JPL, CERN and the like.

My interest is in old manuscripts from museums and the first translations if it's something that I can't read the language. I always liked science and was facinated by Tesla then stumbling on some of his old research papers lead me to that hobby. I was so curious about what the heck he was talking about! You've got to read the oldest ones that have not been mistranslated or are edited. I read current published research papers on subjects that interest me.

I do believe there are other dimensions or fields that are all about the energy stored and its manipulation.

Edited by White Unicorn
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I find it so ironic that a lot of research scientists today also read about ancient theories and even use the same names that were used by alchemists when they prove a theory or discover a new particle. I was surprised when I was reading an old alchemy manuscript from the 1700s which was talking about ATOMS and even used that word, amazing.

All words start somewhere. The word, atomos, is Greek and means indivisible. Atom as a noun was first used by a Greek Philosopher, Demokritos, around BC 500 to describe his theory that all matter must have minimum units of size.

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All words start somewhere. The word, atomos, is Greek and means indivisible. Atom as a noun was first used by a Greek Philosopher, Demokritos, around BC 500 to describe his theory that all matter must have minimum units of size.

Its was when ATOM was used in context of a belief of negative and positive in different numbers manifest differently and different combinations. Greek philosopher and "alchemist" who's grasps of a concept caused him to be hated and his books to be burned naturally. They didn't like new ideas in those days any more than scientists of the day said the world was flat. Politics and religions always get in the way of scientific investigation.

Subject sure has gotten off topic because of my opinion on Kirlian photography as showing an effect of something already speculated about before it was done in modern times. LOL

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Again It is what it is and the effect is the same no matter what you call it.

What else is there that hasn't been measured by our instruments in the water vapor effects?

That's for modern reasearchers to discover and prove!

Alcohol was called a "spirit" of wine etc not spiritualism as you refer!

A spirit is NOT a ghost in this context. Its a residue or vapor or even an energy stored- such as the potential of hydrogen atom even contained in H20 Its effects can be observed, comprehended or manipulated by knowledge ond understanding of the concept.

As with most pseudo-sciences, this is making less and less sense the more that it is picked away at.

You said that Kirlian photography was proof of the aura. I've shown you it isn't, its a simple electrical process. Are you still trying to tell me this is an aura? Clutching at straws a bit aren't you?

I really don't think you even know what your argument actually is.

Again my point is scientists study ancient concepts and further their own research and experiments by the inspiration of ideas from the past. I call it speculative curiosity on their part.

And again - I've never heard of one scientific paper published that is based on "ancient concepts". I've asked you for proof and you haven't shown me any.

It was at Lowell where I first read some of Tesla's papers that brought me closer to the subject of energy fields. He referred to it as ancient energy. He was facinated that more knowledge existed in Egypt then just ancient pottery batteries. I've known physicists and medical researchers who also have interests in the study of ancient concepts because it inspires them to think of different scenarios to test in their research.

They don't often readily admit it to the public that they have that interest on the side. I observed that fact ironic but facinating because the scientists who think out side of the box and discover something usually have the same interest in the past mysteries.

It would be weird for a scientist not to be interested in the history of his subject. But that doesn't meant that "ancient knowledge" has any relevance to modern science. It simply doesn't.

And as I've pointed out, Tesla was not privy to information we've now "lost" or thats been "hidden". He didn't understand the fundamentals of things like the Tesla Turbine, which is why he couldn't get them to work. He was a clever, innovative guy, but his adoption by the new age wing has really annoyed a lot of people.

I don't understand why science can't be interesting for its own sake, without having to add a lot of "ancient energy" mumbo jumbo in to the mix. It has nothing to do with any of it.

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As with most pseudo-sciences, this is making less and less sense the more that it is picked away at.

You said that Kirlian photography was proof of the aura. I've shown you it isn't, its a simple electrical process. Are you still trying to tell me this is an aura? Clutching at straws a bit aren't you?

I really don't think you even know what your argument actually is.

And again - I've never heard of one scientific paper published that is based on "ancient concepts". I've asked you for proof and you haven't shown me any.

It would be weird for a scientist not to be interested in the history of his subject. But that doesn't meant that "ancient knowledge" has any relevance to modern science. It simply doesn't.

And as I've pointed out, Tesla was not privy to information we've now "lost" or thats been "hidden". He didn't understand the fundamentals of things like the Tesla Turbine, which is why he couldn't get them to work. He was a clever, innovative guy, but his adoption by the new age wing has really annoyed a lot of people.

I don't understand why science can't be interesting for its own sake, without having to add a lot of "ancient energy" mumbo jumbo in to the mix. It has nothing to do with any of it.

I don't have an argument, I'm just making a point and I don't know how to make that point clear to you.

Kirlian wasn't around thousands of years but ancients spoke of plants and severed limbs that still had an aura (vaporous light or field) that could be observed. FACT-Kirlian and the photo of the leaf shows this same effect today observed centuries later. It is repeatable.

The same effects that we study and try to understand better today are the the same effects prior generations have studied but with their own methods. (one example Demokritos- there was research then just as now to create a philosophy or theory. He also built from an earlier Egyptian era)

We can learn from old observations and expand on them. People interpret words as different meanings, only when you comprehend the author's point of view can you understand his concept of his philosophy or theory.

Chemistry, astronomy, medicine were all scientific arts usually intermixed with dogmas. Politics and religions were afraid it so the research and discoveries were passed "underground" or "hidden" so not to be lost to future students during times of persecution.

"Hide the knowledge within the symbolism so only the initiated will comprehend the true meanings" = an ancient method of encryption=Hidden.

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Kirlian wasn't around thousands of years but ancients spoke of plants and severed limbs that still had an aura (vaporous light or field) that could be observed. FACT-Kirlian and the photo of the leaf shows this same effect today observed centuries later. It is repeatable.

It isn't the same effect. It has nothing to do with the fact that its a plant. It could be a wet drinks coaster. What the image is picking up is the outline of the water the plant has left behind. It has nothing to do with the fact that its a plant, and everything to do with the fact that the electricity is picking up the shape the plant left behind.

The same effects that we study and try to understand better today are the the same effects prior generations have studied but with their own methods. (one example Demokritos- there was research then just as now to create a philosophy or theory. He also built from an earlier Egyptian era)

We can learn from old observations and expand on them. People interpret words as different meanings, only when you comprehend the author's point of view can you understand his concept of his philosophy or theory.

Of course you build on previous knowledge. That's what science is. But your assertion earlier in the thread that modern science essentially steals everything from "ancient knowledge" and that the "ancients" knew about things like advanced physics is demonstrably wrong.

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I think the hypothesis is self-defeating because by definition spirit is disconnected from the physical. So even if you show physical evidence, what's the causal connection between physical and non-physical?

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I think the hypothesis is self-defeating because by definition spirit is disconnected from the physical. So even if you show physical evidence, what's the causal connection between physical and non-physical?

You see, I'm not talking about non-physical spirits, but what physical object or process might explain the phenomenon of "spirits". Of course, by definition, non-physical equates to non-existent. (I'll of course probably be met with opposition on that point, but that's my stance.)

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I think the hypothesis is self-defeating because by definition spirit is disconnected from the physical. So even if you show physical evidence, what's the causal connection between physical and non-physical?

Doh!

And the thread collapses into the etheric.. Lol..

And science shrugs and walks away..

Good point though, but that doesn't explain a whole raft of Photographic evidence, witness statements, and countless millions of people who have had first hand experience..

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You see, I'm not talking about non-physical spirits, but what physical object or process might explain the phenomenon of "spirits". Of course, by definition, non-physical equates to non-existent. (I'll of course probably be met with opposition on that point, but that's my stance.)

Doh!

And the thread collapses into the etheric.. Lol..

And science shrugs and walks away..

Good point though, but that doesn't explain a whole raft of Photographic evidence, witness statements, and countless millions of people who have had first hand experience..

I'm not trying to discount all of that, but even if you can make the skeptic admit that ( for example ) such-and-such video isn't fake, these books did fly off the shelf, these sounds on the audio are real, that doesn't mean they're required to posit an supernatural explanation just because there is lack of another. if the skeptic still says, "I admit this physical phenomenon is real, but how do you know that a non-physical entity caused it?" then I think that is a valid reply. I don't think anyone's obliged to accept to theorize a non-physical cause just because a physical explanation is lacking.

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I don't have an argument, I'm just making a point and I don't know how to make that point clear to you.

Kirlian wasn't around thousands of years but ancients spoke of plants and severed limbs that still had an aura (vaporous light or field) that could be observed. FACT-Kirlian and the photo of the leaf shows this same effect today observed centuries later. It is repeatable.

So basically you've found something in science that is *similar* to a superstitious belief you hold, therefore they are the same phenomena.

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