Al-Qaida's No. 2 KILLED!

[Babe Ruth]

The goal is to keep the war as a perpetual state of being, 747. That's the goal, and that's what we have.

It's good for business, dontcha know?

[Space Commander Travis]

The goal is to keep the war as a perpetual state of being, 747. That's the goal, and that's what we have.

It's good for business, dontcha know?

Which was pretty much the policy of Big Brother, yes.

[skyeagle409]

The goal is to keep the war as a perpetual state of being, 747. That's the goal, and that's what we have.

It's good for business, dontcha know?

That doesn't make any sense at all. The wars cost us billions of dollars and millions more can be expected to be paid out in support of disabled veterans, and the cost is increasing each year.

In addition, the Department of Defense is facing a huge budget cut and many programs have already been cut.

Edited September 11, 2012 by skyeagle409

[Babe Ruth]

Sky

You should know better than anybody that soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines are expendable, and if they're disabled their situation can be exploited by politicians appealing to emotions. Win, win, win for the system.

[Coffey]

That doesn't make any sense at all. The wars cost us billions of dollars and millions more can be expected to be paid out in support of disabled veterans, and the cost is increasing each year.

In addition, the Department of Defense is facing a huge budget cut and many programs have already been cut.

You don't get the point.

The Big corporate companies and banks make billions, they don't care about you or the country. lol

The amount they make selling/supplying weapons etc is unreal. Do you realise how much logistics go into supplying armored vehicles fuel? And then of course the fuel itself.

I'm not sure if they do anymore, but I know that Barcleys bank in the UK used to make shackles to export to other countries to be used on humans. I know this through someone who worked there and they found out when they left and was disgusted by it. These people don't care about other humans, just themselves and their own.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Coffey

[Corp]

It's not a conspiracy Corp, it's an an illusion. It is a fable meant to scare the public. And boy oh boy has it worked.

AQ was employed, some say created by, our very own CIA to help boot the Russians out of Afghanistan.

An illusion eh? I'm sure Al-Qaida and the various groups that get linked to them would be very disappointed to hear that they're not real.

As for AQ's orgins that they were largely set up by the US to help fight the Russians is pretty much common knowledge. It's been mentioned several times in the media over the years. If someone is trying to hid this fact they're doing a very very poor job of it.

That's exactly the problem. It repeats ad infinitum, since every time you bomb some village (and is it just the Al Q No.2 who gets killed each time? i doubt it somehow) then you just recruit more to the cause of planting roadside bombs to kill some other poor squaddie from one of the countries that Bush bullied into joining his "crusade". Does it do anything towards bringing the war, in the phrase beloved of Big Brother in 1984, within forseeable distance of its end?

Leaders tend to be more important than regular mooks so they get the headlines. In the articles itself that I've seen it's mentioned that five others were killed in the strike. The US bombs a village, terrorists plant roadside bombs. Terrorists plant roadside bombs, US bombs a village. Chicken and the egg. Both sides are killing each other. And last I checked no one was being converted by the sword so "crusade" is just a pointless buzz word and no one was bullied into the conflict. Bush didn't have that kind of influence otherwise France and Germany would have supported the Iraq War.

As for the whole "war without end" bit...no. Iraq is done with, Afghanistan is closing down, and Yemen never saw a large comittment of resources. The whole War on Terror foolishness will fade away in a few years since there's no public or politcal will for it. There might still be air strikes and what not but no where near the scale that we've seen in the last decade. Certainly no where near the over the top 1984 comparison.

[skyeagle409]

You don't get the point. The Big corporate companies and banks make billions, they don't care about you or the country. lol

That's silly! One of he defense contractors I once worked for is going to suffer losses because of the wars and since the Pentagon is going to suffer budget cuts, guess who is going to suffer from those cuts as well. Since the military is going to suffer, so are the defense contractors and their their support base. I might add that taxpayers, not banks, pay our salaries.

The amount they make selling/supplying weapons etc is unreal.

Let's see, the Pentagon is going to cut back on its pet projects, so who is going to suffer other than the military? There are crewmembers who can't replace flight suits because the Air Force is basically broke and now, aimen and sailors are now taking over duties that was once the domain of soldiers. So where did you get the idea we were making a lot of money?

Do you realise how much logistics go into supplying armored vehicles fuel?

Yes I do. After all, my Air Wing is involved in logistics around the world. We used a lot of fuel even before the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and remember, the military conducts military exercises around the world even during peacetime.

Edited September 11, 2012 by skyeagle409

[Babe Ruth]

Corp

Glad to see you understand the origins and history of AQ, vis-a-vis the Central Intelligence Agency.

Now apply that knowledge to the pattern of behavior of the CIA, and consider whether or not the 2 groups still work together, eh?

[skyeagle409]

AQ was employed, some say created by, our very own CIA to help boot the Russians out of Afghanistan.

False again! The United States did not support al-Qaeda during the war in Afghanistan with the former Soviet Union. Where did you get that idea? When did the Soviet Union begin its withdrawal from Afghanistan? When was al-Qaeda formed?

Edited September 11, 2012 by skyeagle409

[Wandering]

If someone punches me in the face I don't ask him why he's done it until I know he isn't going to do it again, and until I've done it back to him a few times.

Are you saying the reasons for the attack should be some measure of the response to it?

Oh yes yes you are tough, rough and ready!

Why not? Remove presumptions first and foremost. Your response here is the same as America. SHOOT FIRST ASK QUESTIONS LATER. WHY were you punched in the face? Did you deserve it? Did you know them? Someone could have just lashed out because they don't know how to handle what they're dealing with at the time. I know I've done that, as most red blooded humans have. The person I lashed out at (mid 20-s, I was 16) treated me in a way I never forgot. Instead of beatin the pulp out of me, he sat me down and talked to me. Asked why I was so mad. Ended up making a friend out of it that I've had now for 8 years.

Treat others the way you would want to be treated my friend.

You want to punch someone for punching you? That's what 9/11 supposedly was. A retaliatory attack. Since you understand and agree that if someone hurts you, you should hurt them back can I assume you now sympathise with the hijackers and their morals? After all, they were just striking a blow against the worlds biggest nosy neighbour.

Read this and ABSORB:

Let's turn this around. Imagine that your neighbour wanted to transport his shopping through your house on a conveyer belt. So he just started building it through your house. So you are like "WTF is this ****?!" So youdo what anyone would do and probably phone the police (the UN) but in this case they do nothing. What would you do then? The police is allowing this to happen! What would you do? You'd try to stop it with force! You'd probably vandalise his house as well. Then he calls up his army buddies and sticks a load of them in your house with guns and kills your family and runs over your car with their tanks.

All this time... You where classed as the terrorist! lol

Anything to say?

[skyeagle409]

Glad to see you understand the origins and history of AQ, vis-a-vis the Central Intelligence Agency.

Now apply that knowledge to the pattern of behavior of the CIA, and consider whether or not the 2 groups still work together, eh?

Not likely at all. Check it out.

Bojinka plot

Phase III, CIA plane crash plot

Abdul Hakim Murad confessed details of Phase III in his interrogation by the Manila police after his capture. Phase two would have involved Murad either renting, buying, or hijacking a small airplane, preferably a Cessna. The airplane would be filled with explosives. He would then crash it into the Central Intelligence Agency headquarters in the Langley area in Fairfax County, Virginia. Murad had been trained as a pilot in North Carolina, and was slated to be a suicide pilot.There were alternate plans to hijack a 12th commercial airliner and use that instead of the small aircraft, probably due to the Manila cell's growing frustration with explosives.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Bojinka_plot

So here is where terrorist planned to fly an airplane into CIA headquarters. Goes to show the CIA and al-Qaeda were not as close as you thought. The person behind the plan? The same guy behind the 1993 WTC1 bombing and nephew of the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks.

You must remember that al-Qaeda declared war on the United States.

Previously unseen tape shows bin Laden's declaration of war

ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- A never-before-seen al Qaeda video obtained by CNN shows Osama bin Laden declaring war against the United States and the West.

http://archives.cnn....rror.tape.main/

AL QAEDA's DECLARATION OF WAR ON THE USA AND WEST

Al Qaeda 1998 Fatwah of Jihad Against America

1998 London Times Article / Interview with Osama Bin Laden: Holy warrior with US in his sights

Previously unseen 1998 tape shows bin Laden's declaration of war against USA and West

September 11, 2001 - NYC, Pentagon, and Pennsylvania attacked by Al Qaeda

October 20, 2001- Bin Laden - "The Battle has been Moved Inside America"

Al Jazeera's October 2001 Interview with Osama Bin Laden

VP Condemnation of Qatar and Al Jazeera for October 2001 Interview with Osama Bin Laden

pril 2002 - AP Tape: Bin Laden - Waging War is Best Way to Heaven

April 17, 2002 - Bin Laden: Attack on US is Great Economic Blow

May 19, 2002 - Al Qaeda views Israel as Target - Bin Laden - "The war is between us and the Jews"

October 6, 2002 - Bin Laden "Youths of God" planning more attacks against United States

November 2002 - Bin Laden Audiotape: "You will be killed"

December 2002 - al-Qaeda issues Internet declaration of war on Israel

February 11, 2003 - Bin Laden: Carry Out Suicide Attacks on Americans

September 10, 2003 - Bin Laden Praises Attacks on US Soldiers

October 19, 2003 - Bin Laden Urges Muslim Youths in Holy War Against Americans

January 4, 2004 - Bin Laden Continue the Jihad!

April 15, 2004 - Bin Laden Offer Truce to Europe, Punish USA

October 29, 2004 - NBC NEWS TRANSLATION OF AL JAZEERA - BIN LADEN BROADCAST

October 30, 2004 - Al Jazeera.net - Full transcript of bin Ladin's speech

November 1, 2004 Transcript: Translation of Bin Laden's Videotaped Message

Osama Bin Laden Tape Threatens U.S. States Not to Vote for Bush

1996 Usama Bin Laden Declaration of War Against the United States of America

http://www.unitedsta...laration of War

I am very sure those are not friendship letters to the CIA.

Edited September 12, 2012 by skyeagle409

[Space Commander Travis]

An illusion eh? I'm sure Al-Qaida and the various groups that get linked to them would be very disappointed to hear that they're not real.

As an organisation, with a management structure (and an unlimited number of seconds-in-command), that organises and directs Terror outrages from a centralc ommand bunkers in a cave in Afghanistan, then I'm afraid I doubt that it does. If there is an Al Qaeaida at all, it's an idea, rather like International Communism, or indeed Democracy. "Believed to have Links to Al Qaaeda" is such a convenient way to describe anyone one at all that you've just killed, to retrospectively justify it, isn't it.

Leaders tend to be more important than regular mooks so they get the headlines. In the articles itself that I've seen it's mentioned that five others were killed in the strike. The US bombs a village, terrorists plant roadside bombs. Terrorists plant roadside bombs, US bombs a village. Chicken and the egg. Both sides are killing each other. And last I checked no one was being converted by the sword so "crusade" is just a pointless buzz word and no one was bullied into the conflict.

I'm talking about Iraq as well as Afghanisatan; surely, on the subject of being bullied into it, you need look no further than Mr. Tony Blair? That surely was a combination of his own lust for glory and cowardice at not wanting to offend his Big Powerful Special Ally. And mr. B (George, that is)'s incandescent fury at France for not going along with his campaign? The famous "cheese eating Surrender monkeys" quote from the Bush-supporting media? The American Right's incandescent fury at the UN for not giving it their whole-hearted backing? And what is this war, in the mind of the American Right, if it is not a war against Islam? It's been expressed many times that Islam is a threat to the very future of civilisation. "Crusade" was in fact a word that mr. B (G) did in fact use himself, until he was advised not to by his Advisors.

[pallidin]

bin Laden has been eaten by sharks a long time ago. Get over it.

Edited September 12, 2012 by pallidin

[ExpandMyMind]

The U.S. has dropped more number twos than my ****.

[Space Commander Travis]

bin Laden has been eaten by sharks a long time ago. Get over it.

And that is the nub or the crux of the whole question: has it actually made the slightest difference to the effectiveness of Al Q, or to the terror Threat at all? Or was it just, essentialyl, a publicity stunt?

[Coffey]

That's silly! One of he defense contractors I once worked for is going to suffer losses because of the wars and since the Pentagon is going to suffer budget cuts, guess who is going to suffer from those cuts as well. Since the military is going to suffer, so are the defense contractors and their their support base. I might add that taxpayers, not banks, pay our salaries.

Even with cuts from the government, the arms suppliers are still making more with an ongoing war compared to if there wasn't one. That is just common sense.

I never said Banks pay for arms. I said banks also make money from war.

[Babe Ruth]

AQ & Taliban and other assorted "bad guys", the Global War On Terror is a fraud of epic proportions.

More accurately, it is a war on civil government and the rule of law.

[Babe Ruth]

Nobody is denying there are bad guys out there Lizard.

The only question for the discerning observer is just WHO those bad guys are.

As time goes on, more and more it appears that many of those bad guys wear business suits with American Flag lapel pins.

[tyrant lizard]

Maybe, but I'm more worried about the one's who want to blow ME up. I find the idea of home grown terrorists acting against there own people very worrying. They may well be doing it because they see the Suits with the American lapel pins as the bad guys, but if it's all the same to them, I'd rather they attacked the dudes at the top, not the guys just going around minding their own business

[Babe Ruth]

According to several studies, the chances of being involved in a "terrorist attack" are about the same as being involved in a lightning strike.

So, you may embrace your inner coward if you must, but I would rather not embrace mine.

[booNyzarC]

The quoted responses are from posts directed at me after the following brief exchange:

That's exactly why the whole war on terror is the stupidist thing ever. It's completely pointless and just produces even more extremists with bigger vendettas against countries who have killed their families. Vicious circle.

What do you propose as a solution Coffey? Certainly can't sit idly by and just wait for the next attack to take place, right?

Please notice that I was merely asking a question about what Coffey might propose as a solution. I didn't say anything about whether or not I agreed with every aspect of the war on terror or anything like that.

Just a question.

(Numbering mine, to denote counter questions to my... question...)

1. So carry on fighting (i.e. getting troops killed by 'improvised Explosive devices') for ever? 2. Has it actually made the slightest difference to the terror threat at all?

3. What to do about the terror threat? (your answer) Use intelligence and detective work, stop people getting alienated and radicalised in the West (where most of the Terror plots have actually originated), not blast random villages with missiles, thereby antagonising the people in the countries that one employs one's Overwhelming Military Might against, or send troops to be killed in unwinnable guerilla wars.

In response to:

1. This can't be your answer, so I must assume that you're asking me whether my above question was intended to convey this. No, it wasn't.

2. I believe that in some ways the war on terror has made a difference. I don't think that it is an ideal solution by any means, but I also think that this is an extremely complex problem that is unlikely to be resolved with a simple answer.

3. Yes, exactly. That was the intention of my question.

(your answer) All good points 747, and I can't disagree with the sentiment that you are conveying here and in the rest of the thread. The war on terror as it currently stands isn't the best way to deal with the situation if we really want a long term and real solution.

Hi BooNyzarC, Well I suggest that we (U.S.A./U.K) should not interfere with other countries unless they specifically ask for help.We seem to have taken on the role of Worlds Policemen. Iraq is still infighting, and will continue to do so, The Afghani's just love to blast each other and have been doing for a 1000 yrs,and will continue long after we have gone.So whats the point of trying to change something thats hereditary ?. You dont see many other countries volunteering to get their lads killed. And spending Millions per day on a useless venture, when the money could be put to far better uses.I'm Not a Pacifist but I cant see any sense in this.Cheers

Hiya spud

All very good points and worthy of consideration. Thank you for your thoughts on my question.

Steve Hughes: War on Terror? Whens this going to end, when you've got all the terror? You can't have a War on Terror. What does war create? Terror! So you're having a war against the consequence of the actions you're involved in.

When does it end BoonY? When they stop attacking? What if they don't stop because they're being attacked too! Great plan! Everyone will attack everyone forever because no one wants to sit around idly (which is when the thinking starts). Don't think about it! Just ATTAACCKKK!!!!

Don't question WHY you are being attacked, just deal with it violently like any patriot!

As expected, you have nothing to suggest as an actual solution Wandering. Just more complaining about what you think is wrong with the current state of affairs.

Carry on then.

Well do you think the "war on terror" has actually done anything? Most Americans/Brits don't even understand it. lol Some even think Saddam did 9/11 as well. Even though I believe it wasn't the AL Qaeda, but for this discussion I will discuss this as though they did do it seeing as you believe that, makes it easier so we don't get confused.

Right so to find a solution to a problem you need to study it and find out where the problem came from:

CIA originally trained these people, they created this rebellion to fight Russians, we all know this. It's common fact now and Hilary Clinton even admitted it on national news. So we gave some rebels some decent military training and supplied them with even guns etc to make a war. We eventually get the Russians out of the area. YAY! We fought back communism! YAY! (this is sarcasm) What we really did was clear the Russians out the way for a country that we wanted to put a pipeline through to pump gas out at Pakistan. The Al Qaeda/Taliban have slowed the creation of this pipeline from attacking the US embassy etc. So we needed to clear them out. Now that is the real reason for the war there. See the evidence for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia....nistan_Pipeline

Anyway after working out that. It's hard to say what to do when the government isn't thinking the same thing as you are.

But to answer your question: I would just ramp up security which is what would stop terrorist attacks. The fact is, by invading their country all we have done is produced far worse extremists. (even some Muslims in the western world have become extremist when they wheren't before, so we have produced more terrorists on home soil - can you blame them when their family is blown to bits by bombing) Sadly the majority of the American public are so deluded that they thought killing Osama would stop terrorism... Yeah cause KFC stopped making Chicken when the Colonel died...... lol

Fact is you can't stop terrorism by invading a country, you make it worse.

Let's turn this around. Imagine that your neighbour wanted to transport his shopping through your house on a conveyer belt. So he just started building it through your house. So you are like "WTF is this ****?!" So youdo what anyone would do and probably phone the police (the UN) but in this case they do nothing. What would you do then? The police is allowing this to happen! What would you do? You'd try to stop it with force! You'd probably vandalise his house as well. Then he calls up his army buddies and sticks a load of them in your house with guns and kills your family and runs over your car with their tanks.

All this time... You where classed as the terrorist! lol

The real solution is... Don't try to claim other peoples countries and interfere where it's not wanted. That's what caused this mess. Even if the attack was Al Qaeda it was provoked. Just like we are constantly provoking Iran (especially Israel) Keep poking someone for ages and they will turn around and punch you. If Iran dropped a nuke on anyone I wouldn't be surprised, not because I think that little of Iran, but because I'd be pretty angry if someone kept provoking me and especially tried to cut off my food etc. (US put sanctions on Iran)

Al Qaeda will never go away, just like extremist organizations as long as others are constantly poking their noses in where it's not needed/wanted.

In an effort to summarize your suggested solution, I've pulled out the following.

• Ramp up security.
  
• Don't try to claim other peoples countries and interfere where it's not wanted.
  

Does that sum it up correctly or did I miss (and/or misinterpret) anything?

Why do we not sort out Africa by the way? There is loads of terrorist groups there? There is loads of innocent people being treated far worse than in the middle east.

From the standpoint of human rights on a global scale, I wish that we would clean house in a great number of places. The days of oppressive dictatorships and injustice have gone on for far too long. It is unfortunately a very messy endeavor and I wish there was a better way to go about it.

I don't claim to have the answer to my question by the way. I dislike the negative impacts of the war on terror just as much as anyone. I abhor the collateral damage that results from such things.

But the issue does need to be dealt with some how.

[Wandering]

The quoted responses are from posts directed at me after the following brief exchange:

As expected, you have nothing to suggest as an actual solution Wandering. Just more complaining about what you think is wrong with the current state of affairs.

Carry on then.

I can sit here and spout solutions until I'm blue in the face booN, so can you but are any of our solutions going to be implemented at the top because of posting on here? No.

Then what does it achieve?

"Good points I agree with you"

"Bad points I disagree with you"

Meanwhile what changes? Nothing.

If people start asking themselves the question WHY, perhaps there'll be some digger deeping and we'll get some more information out in the open. After all, I haven't seen anyone provide a reason so far. Can't be that hard can it?

I asked you why you believed America was attacked. It'd have to be a good reason to do what they did.

I notice you had nothing to add regarding your plan of shoot first ask questions later and whether you seriously think that is the best way to deal with the situation. I can understand if it was an emotional response since everyone seemed to get in a tizzy over the date yesterday.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Wandering

[booNyzarC]

I can sit here and spout solutions until I'm blue in the face booN, so can you but are any of our solutions going to be implemented at the top because of posting on here? No.

Then what does it achieve?

"Good points I agree with you"

"Bad points I disagree with you"

Meanwhile what changes? Nothing.

If people start asking themselves the question WHY, perhaps there'll be some digger deeping and we'll get some more information out in the open. After all, I haven't seen anyone provide a reason so far. Can't be that hard can it?

I asked you directly why you believed America was attacked. It'd have to be a good reason to do what they did.

I notice you had nothing to add regarding your plan of shoot first ask questions later and whether you seriously think that is the best way to deal with the situation. I can understand if it was an emotional response since everyone seemed to get in a tizzy over the date yesterday.

Carry on then with what you do best. b****, whine, moan, complain. Anybody can do that. Good job.

The "why" is an important question though. I agree with that. It is a very complex question and I doubt there is a simple answer. In my opinion though, it starts with oppression. When people are oppressed, desperation can set in very quickly. This kind of fanatical terrorism is spawned in areas of the world where the people suffer gross injustices. For those that point at the US and UK and say "it's all their fault!" I can only respond... you're only looking at one piece of a very large and complex puzzle.

If human rights and basic human liberties could be provided to all people, this kind of rampant fundamentalist terrorism would dwindle significantly. The stabilizing efforts of the US and UK are not perfect and sometimes flounder in the execution, and yes there are selfish motivations behind much of it as well for oil or other important resources, but at the core it isn't as if these governments are intending to breed terrorists.

[Wandering]

Carry on then with what you do best. b****, whine, moan, complain. Anybody can do that. Good job.

The "why" is an important question though. I agree with that. It is a very complex question and I doubt there is a simple answer. In my opinion though, it starts with oppression. When people are oppressed, desperation can set in very quickly. This kind of fanatical terrorism is spawned in areas of the world where the people suffer gross injustices. For those that point at the US and UK and say "it's all their fault!" I can only respond... you're only looking at one piece of a very large and complex puzzle.

If human rights and basic human liberties could be provided to all people, this kind of rampant fundamentalist terrorism would dwindle significantly. The stabilizing efforts of the US and UK are not perfect and sometimes flounder in the execution, and yes there are selfish motivations behind much of it as well for oil or other important resources, but at the core it isn't as if these governments are intending to breed terrorists.

...Righto.

What I don't personally believe, is that a bunch of people on a forum are smarter than the people running the country. There will be people in positions of power through corruption, family ties and other shady deals, but in general you need some type of above average intelligence/cunning to go anywhere interesting.

How often has whatever problem the US is facing this week been 'fixed' on here?

Why can't they do it in the real world? There's enough brains out there. Anyone with common sense can see that the "War on Terror" is a self perpetuating cycle. Thousands of people in the Government no doubt realise it as well, but they don't do anything about it?

WHY?

Gee I'm really getting to like this WHY thing...

[skyeagle409]

Even with cuts from the government, the arms suppliers are still making more with an ongoing war compared to if there wasn't one. That is just common sense.

Common sense says you are incorrect.

Report: Virginia’s defense contractors have most to lose under sequestration

Virginia, California and Texas stand to lose the most money in defense contracts under across-the-board budget cuts scheduled to take effect Jan. 2, a new report shows. Small and minority-owned businesses also stand to lose billions of dollars in defense contracts under the reductions, known as sequestration, according to reports posted this week by the nonprofit Center for Security Policy.

The reports compare defense spending in 2011 to two potential budget cuts: a 9 percent reduction that the president proposed for the 2013-2021 defense budget and an 18 percent reduction that would occur under sequestration.

http://www.federalti...r-sequestration

------------------------------------------------------------------

Defense contractors speak out against budget cuts

Defense contractors warned Wednesday that across-the-board federal spending cuts posed a calamitous threat to their businesses and that thousands of jobs were on the line unless lawmakers find another way to shrink the deficit. The defense industry has been exerting increasing pressure on Congress to overturn the planned cuts, noting that companies could be forced to send layoff notices just before the November election.

http://www.washingto...z0tW_story.html

I never said Banks pay for arms. I said banks also make money from war.

Spell out the details for us all.

Edited September 12, 2012 by skyeagle409