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Harsh86_Patel

Serpent and the Sun

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The serpent and the sun were almost universally worshipped or revered by all the people of the world at some point of time or the other,their reverence crosses cultural boundaries and geographic boundaries along with boundaries of time.If people can contribute by sharing images and knowledge of different cultures of the world revering or worshipping these then i would be very thankful.

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Obviously the Caduceus is a mixture of the ancient Greek and Egyptian religion, that came about with Alexander the Great's conquest of Egypt, link below:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus

If this came from a more ancient source, i can't say, but religion is based on belief, therefore most would quote hermetic in regards to belief, and Hermes Trismegistus, whether or not this is true, is dubious, however link below:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus

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Ahhhh...... sun worshippers just the other day I was down at the beach watching them carry out their curious but beautiful rituals. I dare say I had quite the religious experience.

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The serpent and the sun were almost universally worshipped or revered by all the people of the world at some point of time or the other,their reverence crosses cultural boundaries and geographic boundaries along with boundaries of time.If people can contribute by sharing images and knowledge of different cultures of the world revering or worshipping these then i would be very thankful.

You might want to read up on the Serer of West Africa:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=233044entry4441143

They venerated snakes and the sun.

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You might want to read up on the Serer of West Africa:

http://www.unexplain...4

They venerated snakes and the sun.

I know reading your forum inspired me to start this one.What is very difficult to imagine is that cultures which are historically supposed to be isolated from each other end up having the same beliefs.

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I know reading your forum inspired me to start this one.What is very difficult to imagine is that cultures which are historically supposed to be isolated from each other end up having the same beliefs.

Well, in this case it may be different. Either the ancient Egyptians and the Serer both originated somewhere in between them, like the Tassili mountains, or one was the ancestor of the other.

And then I am talking about long before there was any Egyptian dynasty.

During all these thousands of years certain religious ideas can spread far and wide.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Well, in this case it may be different. Either the ancient Egyptians and the Serer both originated somewhere in between them, like the Tassili mountains, or one was the ancestor of the other.

And then I am talking about long before there was any Egyptian dynasty.

During all these thousands of years certain religious ideas can spread far and wide.

.

You are moving in the right direction i think,there has to be some point of convergence in all world civilizations and cultures and peoples at some particular time.

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I know reading your forum inspired me to start this one.What is very difficult to imagine is that cultures which are historically supposed to be isolated from each other end up having the same beliefs.

I think genetics is shedding some light on why some cultures, very distinct NOW from each other, share similar cultural ties and beliefs, like the Berbers and Sami people, one in North Africa, one in North Europe, but genetics shows a connection in them going back 7000BC or so. Even Native Americans who came from said Siberia area across Bering Strait share a cultural tie with those who didn't cross, so ancient beliefs can be found, similar in both cultures, even with thousands of years of separation.

The serpent for whatever reason seems to go hand in hand in ancient religions with healing, I read it over and over.

Edited by The Puzzler
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I think genetics is shedding some light on why some cultures, very distinct NOW from each other, share similar cultural ties and beliefs, like the Berbers and Sami people, one in North Africa, one in North Europe, but genetics shows a connection in them going back 7000BC or so. Even Native Americans who came from said Siberia area across Bering Strait share a cultural tie with those who didn't cross, so ancient beliefs can be found, similar in both cultures, even with thousands of years of separation.

The serpent for whatever reason seems to go hand in hand in ancient religions with healing, I read it over and over.

So what do you think is the half life or end time of such beliefs,more importantly why have they survived for so long?

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So what do you think is the half life or end time of such beliefs,more importantly why have they survived for so long?

I think they survive because of the beliefs and faith of the ones practising it. Life spans of the beliefs would be variable but I think it's possible that some could go back to even 50,000 years ago or more.

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What I find interesting is that the serpent was revered by many ancient cultures...then along comes the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Now in today's world the serpent and it's imagery are used to describe anything loathesome.

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I think your right puzz and Abramelin, about some ideas being very very durable as they travel with us.

..maybe too this durability is reinforced because people are so very similar that they tend to feel and envision the same things? ... and create and recreate very similar ideas?

could i get a winged sun disc with serpents? Egyptian style .. to go please?

post-86645-0-45828000-1347670404_thumb.j

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I know reading your forum inspired me to start this one.What is very difficult to imagine is that cultures which are historically supposed to be isolated from each other end up having the same beliefs.

Not only the same beliefs.

Similar architecture, language, culture, even boatbuilding.

At some point there must have been a global civilization, prior to what is currently documented.

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Not only the same beliefs.

Similar architecture, language, culture, even boatbuilding.

At some point there must have been a global civilization, prior to what is currently documented.

Be careful of being branded when you say things like this over here.

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I think the Maya civilization is the best example, though they worshiped Quetzalcoatl the "feathered serpent".

They've performed rituals that involved the sun and offerings to the Quetzalcoatl.

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Not only the same beliefs.

Similar architecture, language, culture, even boatbuilding.

At some point there must have been a global civilization, prior to what is currently documented.

The moot point here is "There MUST HAVE BEEN a global civilization"

The favourite line of the fringe fraternity (sorry Snychronomy, not calling you a fringe, but if you are, it applies to you)

The fringe fraternity will never state with firmness anything on their pet fringe theories.

it will always be

It could have been

it might have been

it must have been

never

It is

it was

Is there any evidence for a global civilization?

No. No body has found out any such evidence that is conclusive.

Only thing that exists is similarities.

Quetzalcoatl was a creator god hood, The White Tezcatlipoca, the god of light, mercy and wind.

In Asian and South Asian mythology Nagas were a class of lower deities/beings/entities. they were not creator godhoods.

South Asian Serpent worship mainly derives from Hinduism.

The Middle east had the Mesopotamian underworld deity Ningishzida, and many prehistoric snake cults.

The basic idea of worshipping snakes was the human misconception that snakes were immortal due to their ability to shed their skin and live on. This gave rise to numerous snake cults in many places, even unrelated.

Major snake worship was

1. In Hinduism with the worship of Nagas.

2. In Greek/Roman Mythology as The caduceus, which was the staff of Mercury/Hermes, iris(Hera's messenger) and had a staff with two intertwined snakes and these two snakes stood for commerce & negotiation, as such Mercury was the god of the merchants, trader & commerce guilds. it has nothing to do with snake worship. it is just symbology.

3. In Greek Mythology, as The Rod of Asclepius. Difference between The Caduceus andThe Rod of Asclepius is that The Rod of Asclepius has only one snake on it. The reason why only one snake is shown on it is because of the nature of the snake shedding its skin and renewing itself. It is not worship in fact, but sorts of symbology.

Many have mistaken The Caduceus with The Rod of Asclepius. It is just because they don't know the difference.

Mankind worshipped nature which included the natural forces and the fauna.

It was not that all mankind worshipped nature in the same manner.

Different civilization/cultures worshipped nature differently, their worship/belief/religion/cults having evolved differently.

Assimilation of beliefs between cultures is common during the migration, intermingling, trade and contact between them.

But putting a theory of a Global Civilization as the source of serpent worship is too far fetched and without evidence other than similarities.

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The moot point here is "There MUST HAVE BEEN a global civilization"

The favourite line of the fringe fraternity (sorry Snychronomy, not calling you a fringe, but if you are, it applies to you)

The fringe fraternity will never state with firmness anything on their pet fringe theories.

it will always be

It could have been

it might have been

it must have been

never

It is

it was

Is there any evidence for a global civilization?

No. No body has found out any such evidence that is conclusive.

Only thing that exists is similarities.

Quetzalcoatl was a creator god hood, The White Tezcatlipoca, the god of light, mercy and wind.

In Asian and South Asian mythology Nagas were a class of lower deities/beings/entities. they were not creator godhoods.

South Asian Serpent worship mainly derives from Hinduism.

The Middle east had the Mesopotamian underworld deity Ningishzida, and many prehistoric snake cults.

The basic idea of worshipping snakes was the human misconception that snakes were immortal due to their ability to shed their skin and live on. This gave rise to numerous snake cults in many places, even unrelated.

Major snake worship was

1. In Hinduism with the worship of Nagas.

2. In Greek/Roman Mythology as The caduceus, which was the staff of Mercury/Hermes, iris(Hera's messenger) and had a staff with two intertwined snakes and these two snakes stood for commerce & negotiation, as such Mercury was the god of the merchants, trader & commerce guilds. it has nothing to do with snake worship. it is just symbology.

3. In Greek Mythology, as The Rod of Asclepius. Difference between The Caduceus andThe Rod of Asclepius is that The Rod of Asclepius has only one snake on it. The reason why only one snake is shown on it is because of the nature of the snake shedding its skin and renewing itself. It is not worship in fact, but sorts of symbology.

Many have mistaken The Caduceus with The Rod of Asclepius. It is just because they don't know the difference.

Mankind worshipped nature which included the natural forces and the fauna.

It was not that all mankind worshipped nature in the same manner.

Different civilization/cultures worshipped nature differently, their worship/belief/religion/cults having evolved differently.

Assimilation of beliefs between cultures is common during the migration, intermingling, trade and contact between them.

But putting a theory of a Global Civilization as the source of serpent worship is too far fetched and without evidence other than similarities.

I stand corrected. Good point. I'm definately not fringe nor to I buy into "ancient astronaut theories".

I do think though that ancient civilizations were a lot more advanced than they are given credit my many authors.

I should have used "...there may have been" or something as you suggested.

I am constantly critical of authors, who when discussing topics relating to their own speculation and conjecture, state things like. "It is clear that...", "obviously the only conclusion one can draw is...", the list goes on and on.

In this case I am guilty of poor choice of grammar, and it doesn't truly reflect my views.

It is possible that even if there was no communication between civilizations exhibiting common elements, humans are "hardwired" to develop a certain way given the environment they are subject to?

For instance, if ancient cultures were subject to frequent violent earthquakes, then they may have found it necessary to develop megalithic architecture. Also, they may have learned quickly that the triangle, hence the pyramid, is the strongest geometric form.

Also, on the common elements of astronomical observation, the same stars are used for navigation or spirituality simply because they are the most readily recognized in the night sky.

Perhaps the similarities in shipbuilding is because given similar materials, there is a "best" way to build a boat.

I don't have the answers, but I expect someday the truth will be known, but there's a lot more digging and research to be done before that happens.

Edited by synchronomy
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An interesting fact, is that in west africa there are more stories about serpents. The Hausa's ancestor bayajida is said to have killed a snake guarding a well, after that he married the queen of Daura and his 7 sons ruled the hausa land. There is also the story of the founded of the Oyo empire, he went to the Nupe (Tapa) and there a chief gave him a magic snake which he was said to follow for 7 days and wherever the snake enters the ground, that is where he should build his kingdom.

In the most west african religions, snakes are considered sacred especially the ouroboros

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An interesting fact, is that in west africa there are more stories about serpents. The Hausa's ancestor bayajida is said to have killed a snake guarding a well, after that he married the queen of Daura and his 7 sons ruled the hausa land. There is also the story of the founded of the Oyo empire, he went to the Nupe (Tapa) and there a chief gave him a magic snake which he was said to follow for 7 days and wherever the snake enters the ground, that is where he should build his kingdom.

In the most west african religions, snakes are considered sacred especially the ouroboros

Pangool (in Serer and Cangin) singular : Fangool (var : Pangol and Fangol[2]), are the ancient saints and ancestral spirits of the Serer people of Senegal, the Gambia and Mauritania. The Pangool play a crucial role in Serer religion and history. In a religious sense, they act as interceders between the living world and the supreme being Roog or Koox.[3] In a historical sense, the ancient Serer village and town founders called Lamanes were believed to be accompanied by a group of Pangool as they travelled in search of land to exploit. These Lamanes became guardians of Serer religion and created shrines in honour of the Pangool, thus becoming the custodians of the Pangool cult.[1]

There are several Pangool in Serer religion and each one is associated with a specific attribute, have their own sacred place of worship, means of worship, etc. The symbol of the Pangool is the serpent, represented by two coiled snakes

The etymology of fangool comes from the Serer phrase Fang Qool which means the sacred serpent[7] the plural of which is pangool. Fangool means serpent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangool

Abe has an interesting Topic on the Serer people http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=233044

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Wherever there are snakes (and some places where there are not) there are serpent cults, myths, legends, stories.....why?

because they are interesting and dangerous.

They shed their skin....(links with reincarnation/immortality cults)

Medically instructive.....Brazen Serpent, Caduceus....

connotations of Fertility of the soil

Wisdom

protection

danger/death

No need of an unifying serpent culture to spread the word.....most of the world already venerated/feared and apeased snakes and serpent spirits/deities.

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In light of a few arguments given hear to justify 'Snake' worship as a natural thing to do for isolated cultures,why didn't the same apply to so many other animals which are equally enigmatic say for example a Lion,it has a royal mane and seems ferocious at the same time awe inspiring.

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I stand corrected. Good point. I'm definately not fringe nor to I buy into "ancient astronaut theories".

I do think though that ancient civilizations were a lot more advanced than they are given credit my many authors.

I should have used "...there may have been" or something as you suggested.

I am constantly critical of authors, who when discussing topics relating to their own speculation and conjecture, state things like. "It is clear that...", "obviously the only conclusion one can draw is...", the list goes on and on.

In this case I am guilty of poor choice of grammar, and it doesn't truly reflect my views.

It is possible that even if there was no communication between civilizations exhibiting common elements, humans are "hardwired" to develop a certain way given the environment they are subject to?

For instance, if ancient cultures were subject to frequent violent earthquakes, then they may have found it necessary to develop megalithic architecture. Also, they may have learned quickly that the triangle, hence the pyramid, is the strongest geometric form.

Also, on the common elements of astronomical observation, the same stars are used for navigation or spirituality simply because they are the most readily recognized in the night sky.

Perhaps the similarities in shipbuilding is because given similar materials, there is a "best" way to build a boat.

I don't have the answers, but I expect someday the truth will be known, but there's a lot more digging and research to be done before that happens.

Dont supress your native or intuitive intelligence.Ascribing to an ancient global civilization or universal culture doesn't make you any sort of nutter as evolutionist themselves claim that Man evolved in Africa and spread through out the world and they are not considered nutters.So if this is correct then at some point of time there would have been common descent of all peoples of the world.

BTW-Fringe doesn't mean believing in 'ancient astronaut theory',it means stating things which are not accepted by professional historians at present (who themselves are always rectifying and correcting their previous theories).All new breakthroughs wether eventually accepted by Historians or not,come in the category of fringe.Though at UM it has come down to be used as derogatory and insulting term.

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BTW-Fringe doesn't mean believing in 'ancient astronaut theory',it means stating things which are not accepted by professional historians at present (who themselves are always rectifying and correcting their previous theories).All new breakthroughs wether eventually accepted by Historians or not,come in the category of fringe.Though at UM it has come down to be used as derogatory and insulting term.

Then I guess I am fringe.

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Well Harsh, you are a fringie !!

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@ Harsh86

Found out in Armenian mythology, they considered the lion sacred, the Assyrians and Babylonians also used the lion and like every where, it was used as a symbol of kingship, bravery and i think warriors used it too. Animals like crocodiles were thought to be sacred by some people too.

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