The Girl Scout Camp Murders

[HollyDolly]

Never heard of this case before.I need to look at those websites, but the whole thing is odd.Why open th ecamp if you had burgularies and death threats?

When the girls talked about some strange man running around, they should have rounded up the girls and brought everyone into a dining hall or some sort of meeting hall were all the girls were together with the counselors. Wonder if the killer was maybe someone who worked at the camp, like a care taker maybe.

[Taun]

Never heard of this case before.I need to look at those websites, but the whole thing is odd.Why open th ecamp if you had burgularies and death threats?

When the girls talked about some strange man running around, they should have rounded up the girls and brought everyone into a dining hall or some sort of meeting hall were all the girls were together with the counselors. Wonder if the killer was maybe someone who worked at the camp, like a care taker maybe.

The death threat that was received (a couple months earlier) was considered a hoax as it mentioned martians several times... And the girls apparently didn't mention the strange man until the following morning when questioned by the police (at least that is the time line I as I understand it from the book)...

The care taker - a state park ranger (apparently) was questioned and released almost immediately - apparently he had a solid alibi...

edit: I posted this before reading regi's comment (#24) so I'm also not sure of the validity of the death threat...

Edited September 20, 2012 by Taun

[ThisiswhatIthink]

Very interesting case, and a big thanks to you Taun for diligently digging and learning and sharing different points of this case with us. I did get somewhat confused on the time line of events, but maybe the 'mysterious noise' they heard (fog horn, frog or snoring) was the little girls being bludgeoned to death. The human body can make very vulgar and upsetting noises when in an extreme state of trauma.

[Regi]

Holy cow! I had no idea of the level (and levels) of controversy regarding this case.

Where does one start?

There's a documentary on YouTube called Someone Cry For The Children, and after viewing it, I see clearly why such controversy exists.

I'm troubled by the way the doc presented the facts of the events, and for that reason, I question the credibility of the evidence.

Also, it's not what I'd consider comprehensive, or thoughtful because facts are stated without explanation...in other words, without clarification or support.

The narration told of a dim light seen by "a counselor" in an area in the woods where no one should have been, and that the counselor had shown her own flashlight into that direction and that light then went out. The counselor watched and waited and she then saw the light again, and that it was moving northwest in the direction of the Kiowa unit.

The doc goes on to have Carla Wilhite describe the unidentified noise she heard...the one she had gone out to investigate.

What's with that? To me, I'd much rather hear from the person who saw the light, and I'd like to hear an explanation as to why that event wasn't further investigated!

The fact that it apparently wasn't investigated- or reported that night- has me doubting that it even occurred because it defies logic that a witness to that wouldn't- at the very least- call out to try to identify who the heck is out there milling around at night!

Also, Wilhite states in the doc that she woke up Elders to ask her if she'd also heard the odd noise and didn't say whether Elders had or not.

There was no mention of any threatening note received by the camp.

The two OSBI agents who spoke about the discovery site (Michael Wilkerson and Larry Bowles) stated that were three sleeping bags.

(I was under the impression that there were two.)

It was stated that the perp(s) wiped the floor of the tent with mattress covers and towels, and that those were then stuffed into the sleeping bags.

It was stated that several pairs of prescription glasses were taken from tents throughout the camp, yet there was shown only two photos- one pair of glasses, and a photo of a glass case (Wilhite had identified those items as belonging to her), and the photos showed that both were on the ground.

It was stated that purses were taken. I'm aware of only one purse missing. There was no mention of that one purse having been located, or if it was, where it was located.

The way the science was presented bothers me.

I question it when I hear that a hair "matches" because it's a very misleading statement. It could be that the result of the analysis didn't exclude a particular donor, but that result only means that it was consistent- not that it's a "conclusive". Big difference.

It seems that there was testimony from the trial that semen collected from the bodies matched Hart, despite that Hart had undergone a vasectomy. At the conclusion of the doc, it was stated that analysis of specimen collections from Hart's body at autopsy

revealed the vasectomy wasn't successful, which to my knowledge, would be a rare event, but that's what they stated.

And this is crazy. There was testimony in the trial from an ex-jailer (who'd been fired by the sheriff) in which he stated that he remembered seeing those two photos of those women in the sheriff's desk after Hart's escape!

A property receipt signed by Hart disputed that testimony.

Now, at what time would Hart have signed a property release?

I find that the way the families learned of their children's death's is appalling.

Michelle Muse's mother said she was told there was an accident at camp. Her and Michelle's father learned from a TV report how their child had died.

Lori Farmer's father stated that he received a call from the girl scout director that Lori had been found dead. He stated that he was the third person she had called; that she first called an insurance company, and an attorney.

More later.

[Taun]

That's the same kind of stuff I'm finding in the book "Tent Number Eight" ... quite a bit of what he writes seems contradictory... but it may just be his annoying style of writting... "TN8" seems to be little more than an attack on the sherriff. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it - just seems as though the author could have simply presented the facts, and then drawn a conculsion - rather than try to beat the reader over the head with his conculsion in every other paragraph...

The author seems to be implying that it was a vast conspiracy to pin this on Hart - from the Sherriff all the way up to the Governor and the FBI - The fact that Hart had escaped from custody on a previous kidnapping and rape conviction is just totally glossesd over as if it didn't matter...

It seems as though this case was lost by the prosecutors rather than won by the defense - much like the OJ case...

This book has me so confused now that I'm going to have to read it very slowly - to make sense of it and think about it a while... I'm still leaning toward Hart being (at the very least) the most likely suspect, but I'm really amazed at the very badly conducted investigation...

One part of the book was rather humerous (considering my dislike of the media)... Several newspaper reporters had hounded the sherriff to let them loose at the crime scene - while the investigation was on going - finally he relented and sent them to a nearby area (which may not have even been very close to the scene) then laughed at them when they came back covered in hundreds of ticks...

As for your question about the sleeping bags - the bottom photo I attached above sort of shows what might be three... The thing that confused us I guess was the statement that two of the girls were found inside sleeping bags... the third was just not mentioned...

About his vasectomy - remember that it was in the mid seventies... They were actually fairly new at that time and I have read that it wasn't unheard of for one to not be effective... (no link to that - sorry just going by memory)

Yes, it was appaling the way the families were informed... It was inexcusable for the Girl Scout District to first call their insurance and attorney rather than much, much more important people - like the families...

An OKC television station (I think it was TV - might have been radio) broke the news very early on and identified the Girl Scout Troop and the camp but mentioned no names at first - so of course EVERY family (there were 100 girls in that troop) rushed to the scene and tried to find out what had happened... Eventually the girls were released to their familes after being interviewed - and for most families that was how they found out their daughters were safe... Absolutely horrid way to do it...

This case should be used in schools to teach how NOT TO conduct a murder investigation, and how the press should NOT act...

edit to add: interesting note in the book - one of Harts first defense lawyers (who volunteered to help him) resigned after interviewing him... Later he wrote that he quit because he became convinced that Hart had done it and showed no remorse...

Edited September 21, 2012 by Taun

[Regi]

I haven't come across that about Hart's defense lawyer resigning. I'd have to know the source the author used.

It's very disappointing to hear that the book is so poorly written, but it's not really surprising to me.

I've read my share of true crime books that I found sketchy on references, or the writing style was hard to follow, and/or like you said, annoying because the author continually expressed his own opinion instead of telling the facts of the story and allowing the reader to form their own impressions.

And the media...Oh, Lord. I'm not even gonna go there. I just make sure I've got enough grains of salt.

Reporting on this case has been true to form. Right off the bat, I noticed inaccuracies in reports and/or contradictory info.

I didn't notice that there were three sleeping bags in that photo. I guess I was focused on that pretrial testimony that Richard Day covered the exposed body with "part" of one of the sleeping bags (was said something like that), and that one body wasn't in a sleeping bag.

There's a lot to take in with this case, and I'm having a hard time separating fact from fiction.

The tent wasn't blood soaked. Yes, it appears that the perp(s) attempted to clean the floor with the mattress covers and towels (I guess to get rid of footprints), but I think that was an exaggeration about the amount of blood that had been there.

That OSBI agent (Larry Bowles) who spoke on that doc said that as he viewed the body of Lori Farmer that she appeared to be sleeping...that he saw no injuries.

I read one article where it stated that the medical exam showed no rape, but there was evidence presented at trial of that semen was collected from all three bodies!

I slowed down on my research, I'm trying to digest what I've learned up to this point.

I thought long about the case last night... about the truly bizarre circumstances of the crime itself, and tried to wrap my head around how events unfolded.

In the following, I'm gonna refer to one perp, just for simplicity.

The perp targeted children in a place where there was also vulnerable young women. (I believe the counselors were in their late teens.) That seems to indicate that the perp was either young himself, or (obviously) was a pedophile. I know that pedophile's target places where children would be, and they also find work where children would be.

It's hard to imagine one perp accomplishing all that is said to have occurred, and also, the stealing of various items throughout the camp. To start with, that doesn't sound like the behavior of a pedophile because that's not his primary purpose.

And why would he risk detection burglarizing the camp, and also take the time to do it? If there was blood on the towel (Kiowa counselors tent) then that had to occur AFTER the murders.

The perp left his flashlight with the bodies. Could he have not needed it by that time, and so that's why he must have inadvertently left it?

I'm trying to find precisely where the bodies were discovered in relation to the camp configuration, and I still have no notion as why the bodies were transported in the first place. I know that some aspects of a crime will defy logic, and/or will only be known by the perp, but I know there was a reason for it.

It's mind-boggling.

[Taun]

I agree it seems like every single source of information on this case is using different evidence and data - like they are all talking about different cases...

I'm looking for a good map of the area so I can plot out where what is supposed to have happened...

I found a discussion board that is 'working' this case and found an interesting comment: (the misspellings aren't mine - this time)

Jun 16, 2007

I have called the OSBI, and nobody will listen. I was a boy scout in troup 17 at Camp Garland when those murders occured. We had the first camp site at Camp Garland and only 1/4 mile from Camp Scott. Those girls that were murdered were in the first camp site closest to camp Garland. The first night of camp we had three boys that bragged to the entire troup that they were going to go to Camp Scott that night to get some girls. They indead went, and in the middle of the night returned and woke up allot of us arguing. One boy was crying and saying he didn't want to get into trouble, the other two boys were angry and telling him to keep his mouth shut and they won't get in any trouble. The next morning the police arrived and took all the boys 14 years old and older into the camp site building for questioning. I was only 12. Myself and about 10 other boys told our scout master about the three boys and what they said and did, but he told us to shut up and let the police do thier job.

The Mays county detectives and OSBI found a "drunk Indian" to blame this on and they don't want to be embarressed. I've even called KRMG, and emailed channel 8 and nobody wants to look into this. I gaurantee, if someone adertised to have members of boy scout troup 17 come forward, you would get over a dozen that would remember those three boys and what they did.

Those three girls and thier families deserve justice!! I ended up going to High School with two of those boys and they were some of the roughest kids at Rogers High School, class of 83. I remember thier names.

http://girlscoutmurders.yuku.com/forums/63#.UF3ldNW1lqJ

While I don't think the boy scouts actually did it... perhaps they went over there for a "panty raid" and saw it happening - or came across the bodies...Of course it could be total bunk...

Edited September 22, 2012 by Taun

[Taun]

Another interesting post - that really doesn't present much in the way of new evidence but is interesting none-the-less, is from the girl that was supposed to be the 4th girl in the tent...

My name is Melanie, I am the 4th camper that was supposed to be in Kiowa that fateful night. I can only tell you what I know.

Because my birthdate is in December, they wrongfully put me in the older age group, (12-15) and the Seminole Camp Unit. I was scheduled to be moved the next day because of the storm. It was a very typical Oklahoma thunderstorm that night. Being June and the sun doesn't set until late, we all left dinner with it still light although the storms were in. I was told by my CIT that because of the storms I would be moved to Kiowa the following day when it would be easier and to stay put where I was with 4 other girls that night. (Please understand that these are above ground tents, open on all sides minus tiedowns and layed out for 4 cots, (no bunk beds) all against the edges of the tent. Because I was the young one, they were all older than me, I ended up sleeping on the floor. My best friend Maria at the times' older sister Lisa was in the tent as well and knew that the next day I would be with the kids my own age. At that age, 2 years is a huge age difference.

The storm was really one of those typical Oklahoma summer storms. We all shared one common shower area with troughlike watering areas for washing your face, brushing your teeth etc. We all went to bed, at about 10pm, my new bunkmate woke up wheezing, I sat up and said if she was ok. She said no and that she had to go to the wishing well, (the infirmary) which was down Cookie Lane. Remember we are at Girl Scout Camp. I tell her that I would go with her, it was still storming, the big raindrops that actually for a kid in the summer are nice. We got to the Wishing Well, she got her medicine and we headed back to our tent.

Nothing was out of the ordinary, no sounds other than the rain which was heavy. no flashlights, odd anything... We got back to out tent safely and went to sleep. At approximately and I say approximately because when you are 12 you don't wear a watch, especially at camp, at around 2, middle of the night for a kid, the rain stopped and a stillness rose around the camp, I woke up and had a sense that something was wrong. My mother had told me that I would have these senses because I was away from hom and would be homesick. I shrugged it off and went back to sleep.

The following morning they hurried us for a long hike, breakfast was served early and there was an air about Camp Scott that something was wrong. Being a kid, I thought the worst, some kid had broken their leg or something, (that is one of the joys of growing up in Oklahoma in the 70's...... that was the worst I could think) It was obvious that us kids new something was wrong, I said to my CIT when I was going to move over to Kiowa and all she said was "After breakfast, go on the hike with the group you are with now" So I did

We went on a long hike, I didn't see any of the girls from Kiowa that I was supposed to regrouped with that evening. I said to Lisa, I don't see any of Kiowa, and she said Oh, they are probably in Crafts. OK

When we crossed the creek, the end of the property is there and that is where the busses picked us up. They drove us back to the main entrance of Camp Scott and told us we had 5 minutes to gather our things and get back on the bus. THEY LITERALLY TOLD US NOTHING ELSE. When we got back to Tulsa off I-44 and Peoria where they dropped us off, My mother, father and my favorite teacher from Patrick Henry were there to meet me. I never knew what happened. It was only just before the FBI interview weeks later that I learned what happened.

I truly believe that Gene Leroy Hart was guilty of the murders, but I also think there was an accompolice. I know the Kiowa campground, typically 6-8 tents and the CIT tent. I know that they tent that I was supposed to go to was on the outer edge of the property but with that said, there is no way one man could have done this. This next June is the 30 year anniversary and I would love nothing better than to solve this murder, unfortunately, time, the weather and many other circumstances will prevent it.

The only selfish thing I can say is that that summer my childhood ended....

[Taun]

These are the only maps I could find that showed anything at all... They really only give a general layout...

The last one doesn't even show tent 8... From what i can gather it was nearest to tent 7, but I can't prove it...

Also, I'm finding several sources that state they were in tent 7 not 8... It is so frustrating to find reliable information on this...

Edited September 22, 2012 by Taun

[Taun]

This is the location on Google Earth....

Of course 30+ years have passed so the area has changed, but if you look closely you can still see the trails and roads...

The coordinates are at the bottom...

Edited September 22, 2012 by Taun

[+susieice]

Very interesting case Taun. I just spent about an hour and a half reading through all the links. Am wondering if any followup was done on the other three men reportedly seen at the camp reported in the link posted by Thomas J in post #6. Sonny James, Frank Justice and Bill Stevens do sound like interesting suspects. The last two are now deceased but the first is out of prison and still living in the area from what I can gather. There is supposedly a witness who saw all three men with Hart and saw James striking one of the sleeping bags with a hammer. This witness claimed to have seen a lot of things that occurred that night. His testimony was presented to the court to open a new Grand Jury inquiry. Anything ever come of this? See no mention of it in any of the other links.

Edited September 23, 2012 by susieice

[DKO]

I've been casually interested in this case for a long time - as I said earlier here in Oklahoma it's been a topic of discussion for a long time... The books are used and I got each for about $9 dollars... (with shipping)...

And what's not to get excited about this case? It's got mystery, Native American medicine men, supernatural claims (skin walkers), politics (The American Indian Movement - AIM- got involved) the largest manhunt in state history, various death curses (The tracking dogs were cursed by a medicine man and within hours the first one died of heat stroke, and the second inexplicably got loose and ran in front of a truck on the highway...) - The chief suspect was given a curse that if he was found not guilty he would die, and within three months of the acquittal he died of a heart attack....... And through it all no justice for those three children... (edit to add - factor in a racially charged jury - that may have acquitted him because he was 'one of theirs meaning a local football hero and a member of the tribe)

What's not to find interesting about this case?

Your summary of the incident gives me an X-Files type of feeling. Reminds me of something that might happen on one of the stand-alone episodes.

Back to the story though, It is very intriguing. Gonna read up the links now...

[Regi]

Re: that post about campers at Camp Garland, I don't know what to make of that info.

What strikes me is that the reported info. seems to suggest a certain amount of disorder ...the perp brought a flashlight and roll of tape and left those at the scene, the blood smear on the towel, and items taken then discarded, other items taken elsewhere (where was the concern for prints on those items...concern apparently demonstrated by the wiping up of the tent floor?)

It wouldn't be surprising that the duct tape was intentionally left behind, especially if it was stolen, but what about the flashlight?

The perp's movements certainly appeared bold; he seemed comfortable with being there...familiar with a camp setting, and maybe who was where.

Taun, I really appreciate that you posted those maps- I've been hoping to come across a detailed one- but I can't make sense of that map showing the configuration of the tents in the Kiowa unit.

(Btw, the confusion over the tent number- whether it was 7 or 8- seems to come from counting the counselor's tent as No.1. In the pretrial transcript, the tent is referred to by all as tent No. 7.)

In my mind, I have that tent essentially at the southwest of the property. Wilhite spotted the bodies out of "the corner of (her) eye" at the "fork in the road".

Anyway, it sounds like the bodies were moved to a more traveled area.

I know that could suggest that the intention was for the bodies to be easily/quickly found, but then the scene could have been even more shocking, and so, since it wasn't, and the site was at a fork in the road, I think it could be that there could have been the intention to move the bodies out of the camp altogether.

Edited September 23, 2012 by regi

[+susieice]

Here's a good vid about the trial of Hart.

[+susieice]

Another comment from a girl who was at the Camp at the time of the murders. She recalls someone showing her a blue and yellow Nike sneaker.

http://girlscoutmurd...ce#.UF9s-bKPV8E

And a slideshow done by The Oklahoman

http://downloads.new...eshows/murders/

Another slideshow done by former scout. Look on bottom of pics. Many have a description of the site photographed. Pic 33 shows the site where the bodies were found.

http://s925.photobucket.com/albums/ad93/campscott/betrumka/?action=view&current=54c2a7ae.pbw#!oZZ18QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs925.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad93%2Fcampscott%2Fbetrumka%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DPicture065.jpg

Edited September 23, 2012 by susieice

[Taun]

Thanks for those posts susieice... One of them cleared up the tent numbering for me... Indeed tent #7 is tent "#8"... Apparently it was always called #7, but was the 8th tent because of the counselors tent - like you thought regi...

I haven't had time to read anymore of "Tent Number Eight" due to events from this weekend (I ended up actually having a date!!!! )... Hopefully I will get more of it read today and tomorrow... I'm normally a fast reader but this one is more of a 'slog your way through it book' - at least for me...

I'm still trying to find a better map, one that shows the layout of the camp with tents included so i can get more complete idea of where everything happened and the distances between things... I've examined the Google Earth image and compared it to the 'camp map' I put in earlier and I think I see where Kiowa was, but I'm not sure about the layout of the tents in relation to the other camps...

[Taun]

This is the area of the Kiowa Campsite..

I'm still not sure where the tents were inside that area and which way they were oriented... This is important (in my mind) because if they were laid out with the same orientation as in the 'detailed' map earlier - then tent 7 (8) would be closer to Quapaw site than I had thought ...

[+susieice]

I've spent some time today looking to see what I could find about this case. You're welcome for the posts Taun. The more I read, the more upset I'm becoming with the camp counselors. I realize they were only 18, 19 yr old kids themselves, but didn't they communicate with anyone? They saw lights in the woods. Girls were telling them a man was looking in the tents and some said they were grabbed on their way to the latrine. I can understand they might be too afraid to investigate themselves, but weren't there other adults at the campsite they could go to? Surely these girls weren't left out there alone all night. What about this Barbara Day? She said she saw a strange car that afternoon when she went for a milk run and that it was gone when she came back. If told all this stuff, added to the threats the camp received, makes me think she might have called police, but then again, it was the first night of camp and she probably wouldn't have wanted the extra attention it may have caused. So much should have been done and wasn't.

Found this in regards to the person who claimed to witness the killings. It apparently was a camp minister. It's only a dicussion forum but the third poster is the scout who took the camp pics I linked to earlier.

http://girlscoutmurd...25#.UF-iQrKPV8E

Edited September 24, 2012 by susieice

[Taun]

It seems like a lot of people are seriously discussing this case, and the more I read the murkier it gets...

As for the counselors, I've read conflicting stories of just when the girls told them about the noises and the strange man, so I'm not sure how severe criticism of them is warranted - some degree certainly - at the least Ms Wilhite seems to have either noticed something odd as it was happening (lights, movement, noises, or whatever) and really appears to have made no serious attempt to investigate or to alert other counselors... Since there appears to have been a Boy Scout camp nearby, the chance of the boys being out to cause some mischief had to have been a real consideration - not that the boys would have done anything evil like this, but that they could have always been out to spook the girls, etc...

Also, I'm really not convinced the camp received any threats... At one time I believed they had, but the more I read the less credible it seems - and it never seems to have any corroborating evidence...

As I understand it there were two or three counselors per camp site, a maintenance man (the "Ranger"), The director of the camp (Barbara Day, who apparently was not on site that night) and I would assume a cook or two... Those are the only adults that I can find references to - and the cooks - like the director probably lived nearby and would not have stayed there at night (no data on this, just my memories of my own days at scout camps)... So the girls had supervision - just not effective supervision as it tragically turned out...

Also Barbara Day's comment about noticing a strange car may (IMO) be more a case of her grasping for any clues she could after the fact... The area around the camp is the home to many very rural people, and hunting, fishing, hiking, etc are very common pastimes in that area... I think it may have been a coincidence - though of course I could be wrong...

[+susieice]

I am stunned that there were no adults other than the teenage counselors supervising and patrolling onsite the first night of a girl scout camp, with over a hundred kids as young as these girls were. I don't mean to judge the counselors really, but when young girls are saying stuff like that and they see lights in the woods, I just think they should have notified a responsible adult in charge. It could have been some of the boys from the nearby camp or it could have been some of the girls sneaking out in the woods. It would be the counselors responsibility to go get them and bring them back if it's late and they should be in their tents. Wilhite should have at least just looked, but she was so young herself. I can't imagine a camp being run like this today. When my ex and I did cub scouts, there were always 10-15 adults readily available when we had campouts. Many more in larger pack or council campouts. Leaders stayed in the camping area with their dens and troops, along with parents. That was in the mid to late 80's. The one girl I posted in #40 said she and one of the girls from her tent went to see the nurse about 10PM. I wonder if the nurse stayed onsite. Has anyone else found another reference to the sneaker this girl was shown? Or where it came from that officials would question her about it?

I suppose the car seen earlier in the day could have been anyone. This camp wasn't totally isolated from the real world, so it may have belonged to a neighbor or someone fishing in the creek.

Here's a profile I didn't see in the link posted earlier so I'll post it here.

http://www.girlscout...AL_PROFILE.html

This is an article from Fox News in 2008. DNA testing was inconclusive.

http://www.foxnews.c...,371005,00.html

This link explains the location of the tent and that it was one of few that didn't have a counselor sleeping in it. It's guessed that the perb must have known this.

http://missing87975....ml#.UF_OfLKPV8E

I get the feeling we haven't found half the stuff out there regarding this case. It'll help to find out what those books say. Now I'm all interested in it.

Edited September 24, 2012 by susieice

[Taun]

I am stunned that there were no adults other than the teenage counselors supervising and patrolling onsite the first night of a girl scout camp, with over a hundred kids as young as these girls were. I don't mean to judge the counselors really, but when young girls are saying stuff like that and they see lights in the woods, I just think they should have notified a responsible adult in charge. It could have been some of the boys from the nearby camp or it could have been some of the girls sneaking out in the woods. It would be the counselors responsibility to go get them and bring them back if it's late and they should be in their tents. Wilhite should have at least just looked, but she was so young herself. I can't imagine a camp being run like this today. When my ex and I did cub scouts, there were always 10-15 adults readily available when we had campouts. Many more in larger pack or council campouts. Leaders stayed in the camping area with their dens and troops, along with parents. That was in the mid to late 80's. The one girl I posted in #40 said she and one of the girls from her tent went to see the nurse about 10PM. I wonder if the nurse stayed onsite. Has anyone else found another reference to the sneaker this girl was shown? Or where it came from that officials would question her about it?

I suppose the car seen earlier in the day could have been anyone. This camp wasn't totally isolated from the real world, so it may have belonged to a neighbor or someone fishing in the creek.

Here's a profile I didn't see in the link posted earlier so I'll post it here.

http://www.girlscout...AL_PROFILE.html

This is an article from Fox News in 2008. DNA testing was inconclusive.

http://www.foxnews.c...,371005,00.html

This link explains the location of the tent and that it was one of few that didn't have a counselor sleeping in it. It's guessed that the perb must have known this.

http://missing87975....ml#.UF_OfLKPV8E

I get the feeling we haven't found half the stuff out there regarding this case. It'll help to find out what those books say. Now I'm all interested in it.

When I am through with the books (I ordered both) I will be happy to send them to you if you like...

[+susieice]

Thanks for the offer Taun but that's ok. I just find this story so interesting. The innocence of the times and how people reacted to the suspect that was charged. I for one, don't think Hart acted alone, but he was there, no doubt in my mind. I can't help but wonder if Wilhite really told all she saw and heard that night.

I have a son that lives in Pawhuska. I think that's in the general area but I'm not sure.

[Regi]

Well, I've read articles out the wazoo! I was excited to find articles from the Tulsa Tribune and Tulsa World because I'd read s o m e w h e r e that those newspapers- or at least one of them- had followed the trial. Btw, was the trial 30 days or six weeks?

Anneeeway, once I read through what was there, I think I came across only about two articles re: court proceedings- one spoke about the pretrial and mentioned that one of Hart's attorney's, (he had two) R.L. Wheeler withdrew from the case. (Hey, Taun) The article said... "Wheeler announced his withdrawal in court Friday and said it was because of personal business matters. Wheeler, a well-known civil trial lawyer in Oklahoma City, had reportedly agreed to hire Isaacs in his firm when Isaacs became involved in the Hart defense. Wheeler, Isaacs, and (Gary) Pitchlyn reportedly split over dispute on handling of the Hart defense and money problems."

Re: that book, I'd have to see where the lawyer wrote that he was bothered that Hart showed no remorse and that's why he withdrew...of course, one can't show remorse if one has nothing to be remorseful about. My opinion is still pending more info. Hehehe.

(Forgive me. I have to make light of it because all the misinformation out there about this case is enough to drive you to drinking!)

That might have been the same article that stated..."The state offered no testimony during the six day hearing about a farm house burglary near Camp Scott at about the time of the murders."

I wonder if that was true of the trial.

The civil trial brought about by two sets of the victim's parents against the girl scout council/organization (whatever) is where I read enlightening testimony, but some of it was questionable. This testimony was either live, or was submitted in deposition.

The following info. came from an article titled Girl Scouts Slaying Suit Testimony Reveals Death Note.

There was testimony re: the note. I quote, Michelle Hoffman of Owasso, in a deposition, said she found a note in a donut box outside a Seminole unit tent in April 1977. The donuts, brought to Camp Scott by a friend, were gone, she said, "The note said...'We are on a mission to kill three girls in tent one.' She said...'It was signed something like, the "killer".'

The article went on to say that "the note also contained scribblings about martians" and that "at first she was alarmed" but then "thought it was a prank", and that "the note was thrown away by a Magic Empire worker, and the law officers weren't notified."

My thoughts on this is that it was indeed a prank because tent one was likely considered the counselors tent, and it appears it was typical that there were three counselors to a tent.

(I thought it was interesting that the killer said "we" yet likely signed the note singularly.)

There was testimony from a Quapaw camper (12 yrs. old at civil trial) who said she'd carried her flashlight out to the latrine after midnight and saw "some man's feet under in the bushes near the latrine."

She then ran back to her tent and didn't tell counselors because "she didn't think much of it".

There was testimony from another camper who said she'd heard a sound like a boat horn would make. (I regret that I didn't note from which unit, but this coincides with Wilhite's testimony). Wilhite has testified that she heard the noise "over by the fence, across the road from the staff tent." She was asked if the noise came from "John Cavalier's side of the fence", and she said it did. She also said "by the gate."

It was brought out in the pretrial testimony that the adjacent property contained cattle, and I recall Wilhite confirming her knowledge of that. Her co-counselor did hear the same noise, and at the time, suggested to Wilhite that it was "an animal."

There was testimony from two Kiowa campers who said they saw "a stranger carrying a flashlight and walking down the road." ..."They told a counselor, who told them it was her boyfriend."

Wilhite had testified at pretrial that Susan's boyfriend visited camp "before the kids got there."

The civil trial offered testimony two purses were missing and never recovered; one from Quapaw counselor, Kathy Elder Wise, and one from Kiowa counselor, Susan Emory Hardin. "Hardin said her purse was removed from under her bed that night, and her missing sunglasses were found in a cave."

A Choctaw counselor went to pick up her belongings the next day after the murders (as I think maybe all of the counselors did) and said a small mirror and pipe were missing. It seems she said they'd been in a trunk. (Sorry...I don't know why I didn't note that because these were the items that to her knowledge, "were later found in a cabin in Cherokee Co."

From other articles, I've read that two tents were slashed...that the bodies were found 150 yards from their tent...75 yards away..."147 steps southeast of their tent"...which is it?

I've read (on another board) that the medical examiner said there was no semen...then a chemist? got on the stand, and said she saw semen on one slide....

Those slides should be reviewed again, and by a forensic pathologist.

Apparently, at least one family was allowed to take what I'd consider evidence home after the trial! I don't get it, considering the verdict.

I think the new Mayes Co. sheriff- I think he was new in '84, Paul Smith- had the only correct and moral stand of anyone in authority. He said "We were compelled to go out and investigate."

Danmed right they were!

And he had more obligation and reason than just the verdict which was based on extremely important evidence; the autopsy findings.

From an article titled "Girl Scout deaths re-investigated"

"Smith said autopsy reports indicate to him that more than one person was involved in the crime...two separate types of knots were used to tie up the girls...wounds on two of the girls indicated different instruments were used in the murders." 'Those and some other things bothered me about the case.'

Re: the configuration of the Kiowa unit and where the bodies were found, an article titled "20 Years later, slaying still shocks, horrifies", it's reported that the perp made two trips past seven other tents."

I'm not sure we'll get the facts of the evidence. I've read on another board how monumental the task would be to try to obtain the trial transcript. I wonder about the autopsy reports. As far as I know, the stateus of this case is "open, but inactive."

Apparently, one can go down to the court and ask to see what's available re: the transcripts.

Now... off for one more cup...or two.

[Taun]

I'm in the beginning stages of preparing two 'projects' of this case...

1st - a more detailed map of the complex - tent by tent, including all major buildings, roads, trails etc...

I am a visual person and I need to see a map to get it firm in my mind where things happened...

2nd - a comparative time line... Since I've read so many conflicting reports of what happened when, I want to put them side by side and see what matches...

This will undoubtedly take a few days - I'll post what I come up with...

Edited September 24, 2012 by Taun

[Bavarian Raven]

Having not read the thread, just some info about this case - am i the only one who finds the actions of the "adults" at the camp suspect? maybe, one of them had something to do with the murders. or maybe I am just jumping to conclusions. eitherway a very sad case.