Taun Posted November 16, 2012 Author #201 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Regi... Looking at this latest photo, it just struck me as to why Choctaw may have been 'hit' rather than Arapahoe... Assuming that the perp(s) entered from the west - at or near the gate - the road appears to lead directly east to Choctaw, past the Staff House... Arapahoe's access trails were probably harder to find in the dark... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted November 16, 2012 #202 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Regi... Looking at this latest photo, it just struck me as to why Choctaw may have been 'hit' rather than Arapahoe... Assuming that the perp(s) entered from the west - at or near the gate - the road appears to lead directly east to Choctaw, past the Staff House... Arapahoe's access trails were probably harder to find in the dark... That's very plausible. In photos/videos from the time, there shows to have been extremely dense undergrowth just off the roads and immediately behind and- I would imagine- surrounding the units. All conditions considered, I don't see that the perp could have had any other choice but to stay on established roads and trails. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-C Posted November 18, 2012 #203 Share Posted November 18, 2012 I'm wondering the connection in a killer's mind between wandering around stealing and then killing three girls in another location? It seems to me he'd have one and only one thirst on his mind, not both. I can't get over the gate and road/path location for the choice of Kiowa. I still see a killer who had one thing on his mind, he entered and left and took the stuff he managed to, basically what he was wearing, and left in a vehicle. I would think not everything is even related to the crime. And also, possibly, when something horrific like this happens, timelines or objects or sounds or sights get crisscrossed, embellished, etc by the witnesses or the police? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted November 18, 2012 Author #204 Share Posted November 18, 2012 QC... I agree... I am about 90% convinced that the thefts were not related to the murders... The only real way i could see them being related is if (for example) One person (Hart Possibly) acted as advanced scout for the murders, did not want to participate in the actual commission of the crime, and while one (or two) of his 'buddies' killed the girls, he committed the robberies for cash, etc... I suppose it's possible that the thefts could have been committed by camp staff... Not sure why exactly... but it could be possible... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted November 19, 2012 #205 Share Posted November 19, 2012 It does look like more than one mindset. We have these brutal murders together with this petty- and I don't think it could be much more petty- theft. It's not like it's never happened before in a murder case- murder and theft together- but these items weren't personal belongings of the victims, nor were they valuable...and the thefts occurred in two other units, so all those things make it a remarkable circumstance to me. If I were to make a call on that, I'd say it looks like a young offender, however, that's a call based on what we're told the evidence is. According to her testimony, Wilhite identified her missing items the next day from photos, so, her glasses, glass case, and kapo were apparently recovered on the campgrounds. The theft of the kapo, alone, is beyond me because there could have been reason to take glasses (which were in the glass case) and soon discard them, but the kapo was taken for no apparent reason. Wilhite testified that the front tent flap was open when she went to bed, and that makes me wonder if there was protocol that counselors front tent flaps be kept open at night, or maybe counselors had the option of doing so. That could have been how, or why it was that counselors tents were apparently the only other tents entered. (I wonder about that because I still find it interesting that it appears that counselors tents were somehow distinguishable from other tents. It could have simply been that those were the ones open- for whatever reason.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-C Posted November 19, 2012 #206 Share Posted November 19, 2012 (edited) Yes, I too wondered if the killer did in fact take some items from the girls that were either never realized, or reported, or made public. If so, and these items have yet to be found, that too may point to someone who got away with the murders scott free. Edited November 19, 2012 by QuiteContrary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-C Posted November 20, 2012 #207 Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) But then again, what happened to the killer? He had to have done this again or previously? Unless dead or imprisoned. I wish interlaw-enforcement sharing was more widely used back then. Do killers like this begin with easy targets like children and then move up to adults? In other words, could he have undergone a change in MO and so no connection has been made with other murders. Or would he probably stick with young girls? I wonder if they were taped in fetal positions only for easier transport/ carrying and not for some deeper psychological reason. Edited November 20, 2012 by QuiteContrary 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted November 20, 2012 #208 Share Posted November 20, 2012 OuiteContrary, re: missing items, I've never seen it anywhere that personal belongings were missing from the children's tent. Lori Farmer's mother said (in the documentary) that after the trial, she'd requested her daughter's belongings be returned to her and apparently they were and if anything was missing, she didn't indicate that. Re: the first or last murder of the killer, who could really know until a perp's identified? I believe that the information that "they were taped in fetal positions" is entirely inaccurate. Milner certainly wasn't, and in the doc, neither of the OSBI state such a thing about the other two children. One OSBI agent described- I believe he was speaking of Guse- that her hands were tied behind her back. The OSBI agent who described Farmer's body as the ME began his examination never mentioned ligatures on the body, and that correlates with what's been reported to be the ME's statement that there wasn't any ligatures on Farmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-C Posted November 20, 2012 #209 Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) Yes, I knew Milner was not, but I thought the other two had been. My bad. Sure, it's possible he didn't take anything from the girls. As far as it being his first or last, I just doubt it was his only (similar crimes elsewhere). Edited November 20, 2012 by QuiteContrary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted November 20, 2012 Author #210 Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) In order to try and figure out where the 'taped in fetal position' statement came from I went back and re-read some of the links - specifically the ones susieice provided in post #45 - I came across an interesting statement... One of the links had a long narrative about the crime and mentioned that there were signs of a struggle at the site where the bodies were found... Was there a struggle?... I had pretty much had myself convinced that the girls were killed in the tent then taken out... a struggle would seem to indicate that at least one girl was still alive at that point... Perhaps Doris Milner? That would explain why she was outside of her sleeping bag when found... I can't believe that more than one was still alive, as they would be much more difficult to control and keep quiet... This is the only source I can recall that specifically mentions signs of a struggle at the discovery site, so is it reliable?.. Edited November 20, 2012 by Taun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted November 21, 2012 #211 Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) I don't recall reading anywhere about signs of a struggle at the discovery site. I think that's something that could be up for interpretation, mainly because that site was possibly returned to as many as three times whether considering one perp or not. Edited November 21, 2012 by regi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobalt60 Posted November 21, 2012 #212 Share Posted November 21, 2012 it may seem like it for the present, but nobody nobody gets away with anything...even if we never actually find out how the doer of the deed gets it...after all, remember how the movie "The Lovely Bones" ended? since this seems the last entry, someone reply; let me know you read this. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted November 21, 2012 Author #213 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I agree that generally speaking in the long term no one gets away with anything this horrible... However, finding the perp and making sure they 'don't get away with it' sooner rather than later is important to many people... Plus it's a very frustrating mystery, and just like a bad itch... you can't resist scratching sometimes... BTW - welcome to UM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justnotsosure Posted December 2, 2012 #214 Share Posted December 2, 2012 I know I am probably going to be ridiculed for my thinking, but I am just not so sure about Hart being the murderer. When first starting to read about this my mind was made up. But the further I go into it some things just don't add up. Yes, he probably had been at the camp, and stole things from the camp. But, he was on the run..surviving. I have read from a few different articles that his previous lawyer said that Hart turned into something different that made him seem almost animalistic ..especially when he drank. But, if he was in this state when he did this it would have been a spur of the moment thing not premeditated like writing a note on a box lid. Also, there were SO many people in this area that knew he was around there, so how easy would it be to point the blame to him..if there was one witness that saw him leaving the cave then who is to say that someone else didn't see him leave and go and put the message. And as for the semen found on the victim, well I found a newspaper article from 1977 when he was named a fugitive in the tulsa library that Hart underwent a steriliazation operation and that is why no semen was found on his previous rape victims. There is more to my thinking, but I was just wanting to see your opinion on these few thoughts. And, I'm not saying that Hart wasn't a evil/messed up man, but I'm just not sure on this actual crime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted December 2, 2012 Author #215 Share Posted December 2, 2012 I don't think anyone will ridicule you for that justnotsure... I think that the evidence (or rather the lack of evidence) is pretty strong that Hart at the very least did not do it alone... Perhaps if the investigators had done a more thorough, professional job we would be closer to finding the perps... I greatly fear that this case is unsolvable today, and we will never know the truth... Welcome to UM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontworryaboutit Posted December 16, 2012 #216 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Firstly i must say you guys have done a fine job of investigating this case. i think if you were the detectives in charge you would have caught the guy(s) by know lol. as i accidently erased my first(very lengthy...) attempt of a post ill make this once shorter how i see the crime it must have been a two person job that had been planned out. i beleive the perps first entered the camp and creeped around gathering info on the surroundings and positions of counsellers in the camp. from around 12-2 based on the sketchy timeline of the noises after this i think they selected there target waited till everyone had settled in (they must have know some people where up looking around with flashlights being shone at them) at around 3 they would have entered the tent bludgeoning the first two girls simultaneously (1 per girl) then quickly subdued the other (i really do not think one person would have time to hit one girl at a time and then grab the third girl as im sure the smack needed to kill someone in one blow would probably make a hell of a sound) correct me if im wrong but was the girl found outside her sleeping bag the one strangled and also gaged if she was i believe the crooks did not kill her in the tent but instead attempted to clean up the mess ( one person cleaning one holding the still alive girl) stuffed the two dead girl in the sleeping bag and then try to leave one person escorting the girl the other carrying the two girls (or what i think is more likely of taking two trips even though young that would still be alot of dead weight for one person) from your maps given i believe the girl was lead to the disposal site where i think they molested here and strangled her. i think the plan may have been to kidnap her (only reason i could think not to kill her in the tents). the overall crime seemed well planned (the first day of camp) and very lucky (the storm covering lots of sounds as well as washing away evidence) however the ending disposal site seems very unorganized very frantic and hurried (they had time to clean the tent but not to take the flashlight) i think the consular interrupted the perps and they finished the job and let real quick one thing about the flashlight being left i read one post that it may have been (from the sounds of it anyway) inserted into of the girls making me think he could have been in the middle of doing that when they heard someone approaching . that is my personal take on the crime ( i left loads out after i deleted my first attempted post) and i have misread and mixed up info but the very shotty police work and very vague confusing details make this one hell of a case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted December 16, 2012 Author #217 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Thanks for the post dontworry... I agree that two perps actively involved in the murders is most likely what actually happened... and the thefts were most likely caused by another person not directly connected to the crime.... The oldest girl - Doris Milner - was the only one found outside her sleeping bag - in fact she was the first one discovered, the other two not noticed because they were so small and fully inside the bags.... Two perps attacking at once would definitely be the quickest and quietest way to do it... If I understand your line about the flashlight, it seems as though you were under the impression that the flashlight may have been used 'sexually' on the girls... I seriously don't think so as it was a large box type flashlight... as you can see in this photo: The flashlight is between the lowest end of the two right most sleeping bags.... And welcome to UM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted December 16, 2012 #218 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Taun, there was another flashlight. In the doc., the OSBI agent described a flashlight between Farmer's legs, and his comment was that it was there as though to be handy in case she needed it. I found that to be an odd remark coming from an investigator, and I don't know if that's what he actually thought as to the reason it was there. A poster who claimed to be Wilhite (on the yuku board) stated that objects were used for penetration. (That was the basis for her belief that authorities thought a female could be involved, and why she felt authorities leaned hard on her. Now, I've never seen that info. stated elsewhere, but I think a flashlight presented in the manner described by the agent could lend to such speculation, and it's also likely that the ME offered that finding to authorities. I think the perp(s) spent considerable time in the tent because two of the children were bound which suggests that at least two children were alive for a certain period of time (of course, because there's no reason to bound anyone not alive.) Milner was strangled... which is very, very common in sexual assault cases. It doesn't make sense to me that she would be taken out of the tent for a sexual assault (or further assault), so for that and other reasons, I think she was also killed in the tent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted December 16, 2012 #219 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Firstly i must say you guys have done a fine job of investigating this case. i think if you were the detectives in charge you would have caught the guy(s) by know lol. Ha! Sometimes I wonder! Well, I wish someone in charge would investigate.... Your thoughts on the case are appreciated, also, and thanks for posting. I don't think the discovery site was a disposal site primarily because there was no reason for a disposal site; it was risky and a lot of effort to transport, and the flashlight was left, the tape was there, and the location was a fork in the road, on the side of the road. Those things together appear to me as though the intention was to transport to somewhere specific other than where they were found, and that that intention was somehow- for some reason, interrupted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriousLittleOne Posted March 31, 2013 #220 Share Posted March 31, 2013 got to page 7 , gotta get some sleep, SEROIUSLY interested in this story and will pickup on it tomorrow, all i can say is WOW i used to be a Girl guide leader in training ( im 22, i did it when i was about 17 - 20 years old and im in the UK) you would NEVER get away with the staffing situation now.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriousLittleOne Posted April 1, 2013 #221 Share Posted April 1, 2013 one thing to add... how long was the camp for overnight? a week? the weekend? and how long had the camp been in session? did it give time ad oppertuities for them to be watched and observed? maybe they were observed at pervious camps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriousLittleOne Posted April 1, 2013 #222 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Re: apparent lack of blood on those two sleeping bags...that's another interesting aspect of the crime scene. I've read that blood coagulates about 30-60 minutes after death, so maybe the girls weren't in their sleeping bags when they were killed. We know there was blood splatter on the tent walls/ceiling (I'm not sure precisely where and it's of course important to know) but there was apparently enough blood on the floor to wipe up... I think the perp "did what he did" to the victims while he was in that tent. It was considered the most isolated tent, so why would a perp take a victim out and away from what had been the most secluded location? I think the OSBI misinterpreted this part of the scene. It's looks to me like the perp was in a hurry...that after he killed Milner, he took only enough time to wipe the floor. I think he planned to use the bag later, or he wouldn't have taken it. everyone keeps mentioning blood, but (obviously) blood only occours when the skin is broken , blunt force does not cause bleeding, there are no sharp edges to break the skin, thus no blood on the sleeping bags???????? or am i missing something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted April 2, 2013 Author #223 Share Posted April 2, 2013 one thing to add... how long was the camp for overnight? a week? the weekend? and how long had the camp been in session? did it give time ad oppertuities for them to be watched and observed? maybe they were observed at pervious camps? Hi and welcome to the thread/UM... The camp (most scout camps in the US) are for either a full week or two weeks at a time... Scout troops will sometimes camp out for a weekend - sort of training for the long summer camps - but this was their annual summer camp and was for either one or two full weeks... This was the first group of girls at the camp for that year... Some of the counselors had been there for a couple days, but this was the girls first night there ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted April 2, 2013 Author #224 Share Posted April 2, 2013 everyone keeps mentioning blood, but (obviously) blood only occours when the skin is broken , blunt force does not cause bleeding, there are no sharp edges to break the skin, thus no blood on the sleeping bags???????? or am i missing something These were small children, and they were brutally bludgeoned with a heavy object by a full grown adult.. so yes a heavy enough object could break the skin... Just look at professional fighters... often the blows will break open the skin, and they are hardened and "pre-beaten" adults... these were very young girls ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriousLittleOne Posted April 14, 2013 #225 Share Posted April 14, 2013 the "penetration" torch, was it the one that was covered so it gave off a dimmer light that was possibly used during the night when the councler spotted a light???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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